Death and Taxes [Archive] - Wizards Community

Death and Taxes [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Haiprek
11-02-07, 12:39 AM I was thinking the other day of how death has less impact on a group at higher levels. I find that resurrection at high levels feels too much like a continue timer on an arcade game waiting for you to pump in another quarter.

So I thought of a new house rule to implement; How about the person casting the spell loses an experience level as well as the recipient? This would definitely ensure that raise dead, ressurection and true res (which may be eliminated through this rule) are too costly for a mere NPC to cast without a huge sacrifice from the PC's (perhaps one of the other PC's can opt to lose a level instead of the caster). I don't know, but I've been tossing around ideas for making death in DnD more final.

Just an idea, any suggestions?
Thegans
11-02-07, 03:26 AM I was thinking the other day of how death has less impact on a group at higher levels. I find that resurrection at high levels feels too much like a continue timer on an arcade game waiting for you to pump in another quarter.

So I thought of a new house rule to implement; How about the person casting the spell loses an experience level as well as the recipient? This would definitely ensure that raise dead, ressurection and true res (which may be eliminated through this rule) are too costly for a mere NPC to cast without a huge sacrifice from the PC's (perhaps one of the other PC's can opt to lose a level instead of the caster). I don't know, but I've been tossing around ideas for making death in DnD more final.

Just an idea, any suggestions?

It oculd work but I don't think its necessary. The average npc would never have the money needed to bring a person back to life and in theory if they paid a cleric to do it the party would have to give them a sufficient reason to make the temple/church/whatever willing to help.

Really the only people that could be ressurected are the player characters and obsesively rich people. ANd the right people have hiers that want their stuff.

Still I think you would like the ressurection section in Heroes of Horror.
metalmayhem80110
11-02-07, 03:56 AM I would be tempted to make death have a nifty effect on the one casting the ressurect spell.

Maybe casting this spell brings the caster closer towards the realm of the dead than most mortals are meant to go. Every time the caster casts this spell, they have a chance to randomly become closer to death themself.

Make chart and haev a caster roll percentile dice when they cast this spell. Make it like a 50% that nothing happens. But on the other hand they can recieve physical defects, or maybe a slight alignment change? Or even driven temporarily mad, or fun things with the undead template :D

It sounds fun :D
Akisa
11-02-07, 06:21 AM I would be tempted to make death have a nifty effect on the one casting the ressurect spell.

Maybe casting this spell brings the caster closer towards the realm of the dead than most mortals are meant to go. Every time the caster casts this spell, they have a chance to randomly become closer to death themself.

Make chart and haev a caster roll percentile dice when they cast this spell. Make it like a 50% that nothing happens. But on the other hand they can recieve physical defects, or maybe a slight alignment change? Or even driven temporarily mad, or fun things with the undead template :D

It sounds fun :D

Nah sounds annoying especially if you're the caster, in fact the OP's houserule would just cause your group's cleric to just look for NPC or just say screw it force the player to start a new character. Either way it's still going to be an arcade game where player just make a new characters or just resurrect their old one.
Mordent_Sage
11-02-07, 07:51 AM How about a balance system - in order to bring a person back, someone else must die as part of casting the spell. To stop PCs simply grabbing an orc, the sacrifice must be of at least the same HD. Maybe allow you to sacrifice multiple people and add the HD together. But the sacrifices must be inteligent, and there during the casting.

This would make it very difficult for good alignments to resurect. They'd have to find willing sacrifices (very difficult). The more hard line good alignments might be happy to sacrifice evil inteligent creatures in order to return a good creature to life.

Or, if you don't like that, stick with the current rules. Remember, a soul has to be "free and willing" to return. A good role-player may have the soul being unwilling, due to the reward it has found in the afterlife. Then the group has to go after them to pursuade them to return. Or maybe the soul has been taken from the Fuge Plane (for Forgotten Realms, anyway) by evil outsiders to use as currency (or lunch!), and then the group would have to rescue it.

Or, have you ever seen the Buffy episode where she's resurected? Some good ideas there!
Seeker95
11-02-07, 09:27 AM I liked the old (pre-3e) system of losing Con, and having to roll to successfully return. However, rather than default to Con, have it be a point loss of Con or Wis, whichever is higher. In case of equal scores, randomly pick one.
Rania
11-02-07, 02:56 PM Or you know what else you could do? Have the government enforce a "resurrection tax"!
kriskey
11-02-07, 04:45 PM Honestly, I've never reached a point where the 27,000 gold and total stopdown for resurrection wasn't a complete pain in the arse.
Mad_Wizard
11-02-07, 05:48 PM A recent houserule that I've started using is that the only resurrection spell is Revivify (it's in the Spell Compendium, not sure where else). Basically, the spell has to be cast within one round, or it doesn't work, but has a cheaper material cost and doesn't cause level or constitution loss. This means that you have to get to someone's body quickly if they die, or they die for good, but if you do, there isn't that bad of a penalty. It makes save-or-dies slightly less annoying, and makes death more permanent.
Edymnion
11-03-07, 04:08 PM Or you can just do the Eberron approach.
There simply aren't any NPCs with a high enough level to even cast the spell in the first place. There might be one or two people in the world that can raise the dead, and it becomes a quest to find them.
CryoSilver
11-03-07, 04:16 PM I tacked an XP cost onto raising spells, and that does a lot to make the player's hesitate.

Also, if they don't have the components on hand (and diamonds aren't just lying around, ya know), they have to abandon whatever they're doing to go find them, something that could takes days, or even weeks of in-game time.
Kitep
11-03-07, 04:52 PM I used to DM a high-level game, where even I said death was just a "minor nuisance". :) Suggestions:

1) Don't change a thing. It already costs a level or lots of $$. People in my group usually love their characters. To tell them that the char is permanently dead would make the game less fun for them. The one guy who tends to die a lot doesn't care about his char so wouldn't care if he couldn't get him back anyway.

2) Just out-and-out ban True Resurrection. Losing a level to come back would make it feel a lot less like hitting the continue button.

3) Decide that the ruler of whatever plane they went to also decides if the soul can return. They usually allow it, but demand a sacrafice or quest.

4) Pull out AD&D's Resurrection System Shock Survival Roll. Basically, every time they come back, they have to roll a saving throw. A natural "1" and they're dead forever.

5) Remember, the bad guys can get resurrected too...

6) Last & best - have a BBEG who's out to kill the party, just like they killed him. But, he's out to make it a permanent death! Done right, it can put chills down their spine.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Haiprek 11-02-07, 12:39 AM	I was thinking the other day of how death has less impact on a group at higher levels. I find that resurrection at high levels feels too much like a continue timer on an arcade game waiting for you to pump in another quarter. So I thought of a new house rule to implement; How about the person casting the spell loses an experience level as well as the recipient? This would definitely ensure that raise dead, ressurection and true res (which may be eliminated through this rule) are too costly for a mere NPC to cast without a huge sacrifice from the PC's (perhaps one of the other PC's can opt to lose a level instead of the caster). I don't know, but I've been tossing around ideas for making death in DnD more final. Just an idea, any suggestions?
Thegans 11-02-07, 03:26 AM	I was thinking the other day of how death has less impact on a group at higher levels. I find that resurrection at high levels feels too much like a continue timer on an arcade game waiting for you to pump in another quarter. So I thought of a new house rule to implement; How about the person casting the spell loses an experience level as well as the recipient? This would definitely ensure that raise dead, ressurection and true res (which may be eliminated through this rule) are too costly for a mere NPC to cast without a huge sacrifice from the PC's (perhaps one of the other PC's can opt to lose a level instead of the caster). I don't know, but I've been tossing around ideas for making death in DnD more final. Just an idea, any suggestions? It oculd work but I don't think its necessary. The average npc would never have the money needed to bring a person back to life and in theory if they paid a cleric to do it the party would have to give them a sufficient reason to make the temple/church/whatever willing to help. Really the only people that could be ressurected are the player characters and obsesively rich people. ANd the right people have hiers that want their stuff. Still I think you would like the ressurection section in Heroes of Horror.
metalmayhem80110 11-02-07, 03:56 AM	I would be tempted to make death have a nifty effect on the one casting the ressurect spell. Maybe casting this spell brings the caster closer towards the realm of the dead than most mortals are meant to go. Every time the caster casts this spell, they have a chance to randomly become closer to death themself. Make chart and haev a caster roll percentile dice when they cast this spell. Make it like a 50% that nothing happens. But on the other hand they can recieve physical defects, or maybe a slight alignment change? Or even driven temporarily mad, or fun things with the undead template :D It sounds fun :D
Akisa 11-02-07, 06:21 AM	I would be tempted to make death have a nifty effect on the one casting the ressurect spell. Maybe casting this spell brings the caster closer towards the realm of the dead than most mortals are meant to go. Every time the caster casts this spell, they have a chance to randomly become closer to death themself. Make chart and haev a caster roll percentile dice when they cast this spell. Make it like a 50% that nothing happens. But on the other hand they can recieve physical defects, or maybe a slight alignment change? Or even driven temporarily mad, or fun things with the undead template :D It sounds fun :D Nah sounds annoying especially if you're the caster, in fact the OP's houserule would just cause your group's cleric to just look for NPC or just say screw it force the player to start a new character. Either way it's still going to be an arcade game where player just make a new characters or just resurrect their old one.
Mordent_Sage 11-02-07, 07:51 AM	How about a balance system - in order to bring a person back, someone else must die as part of casting the spell. To stop PCs simply grabbing an orc, the sacrifice must be of at least the same HD. Maybe allow you to sacrifice multiple people and add the HD together. But the sacrifices must be inteligent, and there during the casting. This would make it very difficult for good alignments to resurect. They'd have to find willing sacrifices (very difficult). The more hard line good alignments might be happy to sacrifice evil inteligent creatures in order to return a good creature to life. Or, if you don't like that, stick with the current rules. Remember, a soul has to be "free and willing" to return. A good role-player may have the soul being unwilling, due to the reward it has found in the afterlife. Then the group has to go after them to pursuade them to return. Or maybe the soul has been taken from the Fuge Plane (for Forgotten Realms, anyway) by evil outsiders to use as currency (or lunch!), and then the group would have to rescue it. Or, have you ever seen the Buffy episode where she's resurected? Some good ideas there!
Seeker95 11-02-07, 09:27 AM	I liked the old (pre-3e) system of losing Con, and having to roll to successfully return. However, rather than default to Con, have it be a point loss of Con or Wis, whichever is higher. In case of equal scores, randomly pick one.
Rania 11-02-07, 02:56 PM	Or you know what else you could do? Have the government enforce a "resurrection tax"!
kriskey 11-02-07, 04:45 PM	Honestly, I've never reached a point where the 27,000 gold and total stopdown for resurrection wasn't a complete pain in the arse.
Mad_Wizard 11-02-07, 05:48 PM	A recent houserule that I've started using is that the only resurrection spell is Revivify (it's in the Spell Compendium, not sure where else). Basically, the spell has to be cast within one round, or it doesn't work, but has a cheaper material cost and doesn't cause level or constitution loss. This means that you have to get to someone's body quickly if they die, or they die for good, but if you do, there isn't that bad of a penalty. It makes save-or-dies slightly less annoying, and makes death more permanent.
Edymnion 11-03-07, 04:08 PM	Or you can just do the Eberron approach. There simply aren't any NPCs with a high enough level to even cast the spell in the first place. There might be one or two people in the world that can raise the dead, and it becomes a quest to find them.
CryoSilver 11-03-07, 04:16 PM	I tacked an XP cost onto raising spells, and that does a lot to make the player's hesitate. Also, if they don't have the components on hand (and diamonds aren't just lying around, ya know), they have to abandon whatever they're doing to go find them, something that could takes days, or even weeks of in-game time.
Kitep 11-03-07, 04:52 PM	I used to DM a high-level game, where even I said death was just a "minor nuisance". :) Suggestions: 1) Don't change a thing. It already costs a level or lots of $$. People in my group usually love their characters. To tell them that the char is permanently dead would make the game less fun for them. The one guy who tends to die a lot doesn't care about his char so wouldn't care if he couldn't get him back anyway. 2) Just out-and-out ban True Resurrection. Losing a level to come back would make it feel a lot less like hitting the continue button. 3) Decide that the ruler of whatever plane they went to also decides if the soul can return. They usually allow it, but demand a sacrafice or quest. 4) Pull out AD&D's Resurrection System Shock Survival Roll. Basically, every time they come back, they have to roll a saving throw. A natural "1" and they're dead forever. 5) Remember, the bad guys can get resurrected too... 6) Last & best - have a BBEG who's out to kill the party, just like they killed him. But, he's out to make it a permanent death! Done right, it can put chills down their spine.