death of a character [Archive] - Wizards Community

death of a character [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
halo299
10-27-04, 08:04 AM in last nights game one of the PCs met her end.

this was a sad time for us because this dosen't happen in my games all that much, and she was trying really really hard, was the last person left still fighting and didn't take the oppertunity the guy gave her to "just walk away". to make matters worse, she almost beat the guy (he had 6 hp left). but it is hard to argue with a crit and when all is said and done, she was dead before she hit the ground.

i'm letting her start a new character 1 level behind the old character, and i'm letting her carry the xp over from the last adventure to the new character because i don't want her to feel like her sacrafice was pointless.

but all the players were pretty upset seeing someone go down like that, and even though i've warned them all that i will kill a character if the situation demands it, i've never had to do it with this group before, it was like they all got a good look at mortality and didn't like it.

is this a big deal in your guys games, if so how do you deal with it?

thanks.

yes, it was a sad game last night.
Kar-Vermin
10-27-04, 08:36 AM Death is part and parcel of the D&D experience.

Like all good DM's, I never planned to kill of a PC in any of our sessions. But, on rare occasions, it happened. The campaign- its storyline, its drama, is all the stronger for it, especially if it occurs at a dramatic moment.

Of course, any good roleplayer would be upset at the loss of his or her character. But as long as there was no dispute that the death was fair (in a rules and balance sense), it's, as I said, part of the game.

Ah yes, I can remember the entire table going silent for a long time at the death of a beloved PC (or even sometimes, an NPC that they really cared about). It can really put a pause in your step. But the game is still awaiting. Get those dice rolling...

Happy Gaming.
Kar-Vermin
10-27-04, 08:36 AM Speaking of things that should die...

Lousy double post :mad:
digoraccoon
10-27-04, 08:37 AM I can't say you did anything wrong. You just have to let the players know that death is an entirely possible outcome of an adventurer's life. Last session in my campaign, the party fighter was killed in a dual with a retired knight (The fighter started it). The player was a bit downtrodden, but knew what he was getting into so he accepted it.

Players do need to realize that they can die. If they didn't have that sense of mortality, then they'd not worry about any battles and keep relying on the DM to "save their character" or something. The excitement of "Danger" is lost. Hopefully your players will understand that.

As an aside, it was kind of you to carry the experience points earned to the new character. I think that makes the character's sacrifice a bit more meaningful. :)
Tyrian
10-27-04, 02:45 PM Ditto.

Especially after giving her an opportunity to walk away, your players (all of them, not just the one who lost her PC) have to accept that there are consequences to their actions.

Now for the player, if she was really attached to this character, you could always let her "roll up" her char's twin sister who is out for revenge. That way you have some familial continuity, and (assuming the foe walked away) sets up some interesting RP opportunities for you and the player to explore.

Good luck, it'll all turn out fine :)

..tyrian
ratt182
10-27-04, 06:17 PM If it was as rough a time as you say, and I’m sure it was, then you should be congratulated. Not for killing a character, but for creating a world real enough for your players to get attached to their characters. It sounds like you are doing your job as a DM. You should also count yourself lucky to have players who are strong enough roleplayers to care about their characters. Sounds like you have a strong group. Just my two cp.
monkeywrench
10-27-04, 06:32 PM is this a big deal in your guys games, if so how do you deal with it?

Not to sound like I'm downplaying the experience...but I deal with it by casting (or having someone else cast) Raise Dead. That's why the spell (and all of it's associated spells) is there.

It's hardly pricey enough that a friendly Cleric can't cast it for you.
Black Kitten
10-27-04, 06:56 PM The world is made by logic. Logic means that both sides have equal chances (to an extend of course). This means that you CAN DIE. This is something I've told my players several times already. My players know I do not intend to kill them and they will not argue with me about it, unless it was a rather doubtful event (such as the Symbol of Death trap linked to the BBEG's liar I used :S (TPK)).

I am a rather nice DM at that point though. Since my players often take a long time to get through some things, it may not be possible to raise a character and I hate having a player around the table with nothing to do. So usually those characters (especially if they died since bad luck, not stupidity) stabilize at -9. (which one PC forgot once and walked over the person with his climbing kit on his feet, but that wasn't my fault).

The pity thing is though, my players are rarely attached enough to their characters to hit me over the head. Though I am able to make a fun game, the deep RP'ing is only now coming. Let's hope I can get someone sad soon.:schemes:
Shard of Suzail
10-27-04, 07:44 PM I`ve lost a lot of characters in my time. I`ll try and list them, the games they were in and how they died.

Well, lets see...

Tatiana Elisa Markova, Vampire Game (elder), killed in combat.

Allette, Vampire Game, killed in combat (on the Eiffel tower)

Peacekeeper Naxa Bryar, Stargate game, shot by turncoat player character.

Agasha Amaterasujin, Legend of the Five Rings Game, killed in combat.

Asahina Chikaiko, Legend of the Five Rings Game, killed self to save honour.

Tetsuokami, Kindred of the East Game, overcome by demon soul and vanished.

Judicia of Tyr, Dungeons and Dragons, killed herself to redeem another.

Marnak Oakstrutter, Dungeons and Dragons, killed in combat.

Hurk the Half Orc, Dungeons and Dragons, accidentally killed by an ally.

Century the Adept, Shadowrun Game, accidentally killed by an ally.

***

There are others, i dont remember them though. Those listed about are a lot of roleplay time between them, with the most notable being very experienced characters with several years of game play behind them. I`ve lost a lot of characters, many at the hands of other players, be it intentional killing or accidental attack. Breaks my heart when i remember some of those characters, i wrote stories for some of them and had pictures of them all.

It still pains me to think about some of those characters. I really do take on my characters when i play them and i would say that they are pretty close to being real people and real parts of myself. I really miss them.

Dungeons and Dragons is a strange game compared to others like vampire. Character mortality is very high. We suffer a character death every two or three scenarios, sometimes more and I dont get to know my d and d characters like i usually do in other games. Its good going if i have played the same character for four levels in a row.

Ressurection is good, but too much death can make it pointless and unwanted. Likewise, for some reason, it leaves a strange taste in the mouth and seems "not right". I guess myself and my fellows are used to death being final for a character. Its a hard habit to break. Still, the level loss for ressurection drives the point home and makes it less than desirable overall.

I would say this though, our campaign is very rough. The last session, those characters left alive had a serious think about their future. We`ve pretty much thrown alignment out the window now, since there is no longer any room for half measures. We started as a paladin party, but now we are doing the same quest and have effectively turned evil because its the only way to overcome the massive odds set against us in our chosen quest.

There does come a point where too much death in a campaign will do that. Only so many paladins can march into the breach and die before the battered survivors turn to any means necessary to succeed.

***

I talked to one of my friends and he said that he thought character death should "have meaning". He asked me how many of my characters had died in some heroic manner. I thought about this and, in truth, perhaps only one or two fit that bill. Most of my characters have died in almost stupid or pointless circumstances. It is a rare day that a character dies in a manner that "seems right".

Maybe there is no "right time" for a character to die. Even a heroic death is usually still a terrible loss to the player concerned. What frustrates me is that every one of my characters has died before it really achieved what i built it for.

I often think that those "min max" players have the right idea. I have known a lot of players who really work to make characters tough and they, in the end, tend not to die. Though rarely do they make much of an impact in the game world, i find. My characters do tend to make a difference and do stand up for what they believe in...which is perhaps why so many dont survive.

***

I would draw this conclusion. Perhaps the only time that I find character death unbearable is when allies let me down. All too often a character would be alive if other players showed backbone and put their character at risk too. Many of my characters died fighting alone. All too often the bad guys then hunted down the cowardly characters and killed them anyway.

Parties should have an agreement that, if someone runs, everyone runs. If someone stands and fights, then everyone should stand by their side. All too often a battle could have been won, without casualties, *if everyone worked together and took a risk*.

Sometimes the wizard has to get into melee and take a hit. Sometimes that single hit is the thing that will save a fighter's life.
ratt182
10-27-04, 09:08 PM What a great post :(

I think I am going to print that out.
Callista
10-28-04, 02:58 AM I'm a relatively newbie player who, for the past year, has had a Dm who would not let anyone die... So I suppose I have a bit of a different perspective on character death than Shard of Suzail.

My first experience with the death of an ally--not a PC, or even a longtime NPC--happened just last weekend, during an online game not run by my usual DM. Basically, my rogue, another PC, and several NPCs had been assigned to take and guard a cave which was being used by orcs. Our DM had told us this would be a hard fight, and it was; both my character and the other PC were unconscious at one time or another, and later we found out that our highest-level opponent (of several orcs with class levels) had been a level 5 druid.

At any rate, one of our fellow NPCs, a spellcaster, immediately got into a duel with the druid, who had hidden himself so that the rest of us couldn't see him (I think Darkness or some such, but I'm not sure). The rest of us were in trouble ourselves and couldn't help her much (Entangle...). After a few rounds, we saw that the spellcaster had taken a lot of damage, though she'd apparently dealt quite a lot of damage herself, too. At this point my rogue yelled at her to take cover, or she'd be burnt to a crisp; the spellcaster ignored her, and two rounds later, dropped to the ground, dead.

The interesting part about this is the role-playing opportunities it offers. My character is a wood elf whose "goal in life" is pretty much to protect her homeland from anyone who would threaten it or its inhabitants. So, she's not a typical rogue... think ranger or druid mindset, with a rogue skillset. She has a vendetta against orcs in general, and these orcs in particular. She's also a survivor who places an emphasis on strategy (a challenge for me--I'm not at all good at strategy) and enjoys a good fight.

So now she's got this conflict going on: She's angry at the spellcaster for not taking cover and letting the orcs kill her; and she's angry at the orcs for killing yet another person. I think eventually she's going to figure out that not everyone has the same cool, calculated approach to battle that she does; and that the spellcaster, if she were similarly angry at the orcs, could easily have lost her head--a very forgiveable offense, and understandable to my character because, as I said, she hates orcs.

Then there's the matter of witnessing the other NPCs talking about the death of their comrade, whom they have been working with for a while. My character, except for the anger thing, is pretty much emotionally detached as a matter of preference. Now she's going to see emotion, whether she likes it or not. I'll just have to run with this and see how it goes; it could be interesting.

Anyhow, the point of this longish anecdote is that character death really offers a unique role-play opportunity to the other players. I don't think I'd mind one of my characters dying even senselessly. The other players have a chance to do a lot of things with a PC death--vengeance, fear, despair, even pride or a desire to carry on the dead character's legacy.

Too much death, and death loses its meaning. Even in real life, being repeatedly exposed to comrades' deaths tends to make you hard and jaded, unable to really care about anyone; in D&D, it's worse, because players with characters that die after only a short time will not become interested in the character, preventing good RP.

But, too little death--either because of repeated, easy resurrections or because, like with my DM, there's a fear of killing off PCs--makes life lose its meaning. When you become an adventurer, you sign your own death warrant and hope you manage to accomplish something before it's carried out. Without the reality of PC death, the sense of danger that makes the game so fascinating fades away.

I think PC deaths are like cayenne pepper... a little goes a long way.
halo299
10-28-04, 04:25 PM Especially after giving her an opportunity to walk away, your players (all of them, not just the one who lost her PC) have to accept that there are consequences to their actions.

It wasn’t quite that simple. The deal was, she put down her bow and let stand aside while he walk away with the girl the party swore an oath to defend. There was nothing foolhardy about her death.
Tyrian
10-28-04, 05:47 PM It wasn’t quite that simple. The deal was, she put down her bow and let stand aside while he walk away with the girl the party swore an oath to defend. There was nothing foolhardy about her death.

Nor did I say that there was anything foolhardy about it :)

I still stand by my original assertion that your players (and for that matter all players) have to be aware of consequences. In this case, it is the consequence of swearing an oath to protect someone. When the black suits in the Secret Service take their oath, they know from Day 1 that they may, and in fact are expected should the time arise, have to take a bullet for the President. Just because this is a fantasy world, doesn't mean that the expectation of mortality should change.

Now I obviously don't know the actual wording of the oath ("Defend to the death", "Protect from harm", "Don't let the BBEG carry me away") so I can't comment on whether or not your player was fulfilling her oath by attacking the NPC. That's the player's judgement call, and from a DM's standpoint all you can do is roll the dice and let them fall where they may.

As you said in your original post, you had told the players that mortality was a real issue. Having been on the other side of the screen, I know that sometimes it takes a PC death to hammer home that point. As has been pointed out above you handled the situation well, better than many DM's I've seen ranted about on these boards :)

Time to move on. If your players (and their characters) have heavy hearts about the loss of a companion I say congratulations, you've followed through on what you told them might happen. And you have an excellent group of roleplayers who are now hopefully that much more prepared for the dangers you're going to throw at them in the future.

..tyrian

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
halo299 10-27-04, 08:04 AM	in last nights game one of the PCs met her end. this was a sad time for us because this dosen't happen in my games all that much, and she was trying really really hard, was the last person left still fighting and didn't take the oppertunity the guy gave her to "just walk away". to make matters worse, she almost beat the guy (he had 6 hp left). but it is hard to argue with a crit and when all is said and done, she was dead before she hit the ground. i'm letting her start a new character 1 level behind the old character, and i'm letting her carry the xp over from the last adventure to the new character because i don't want her to feel like her sacrafice was pointless. but all the players were pretty upset seeing someone go down like that, and even though i've warned them all that i will kill a character if the situation demands it, i've never had to do it with this group before, it was like they all got a good look at mortality and didn't like it. is this a big deal in your guys games, if so how do you deal with it? thanks. yes, it was a sad game last night.
Kar-Vermin 10-27-04, 08:36 AM	Death is part and parcel of the D&D experience. Like all good DM's, I never planned to kill of a PC in any of our sessions. But, on rare occasions, it happened. The campaign- its storyline, its drama, is all the stronger for it, especially if it occurs at a dramatic moment. Of course, any good roleplayer would be upset at the loss of his or her character. But as long as there was no dispute that the death was fair (in a rules and balance sense), it's, as I said, part of the game. Ah yes, I can remember the entire table going silent for a long time at the death of a beloved PC (or even sometimes, an NPC that they really cared about). It can really put a pause in your step. But the game is still awaiting. Get those dice rolling... Happy Gaming.
Kar-Vermin 10-27-04, 08:36 AM	Speaking of things that should die... Lousy double post :mad:
digoraccoon 10-27-04, 08:37 AM	I can't say you did anything wrong. You just have to let the players know that death is an entirely possible outcome of an adventurer's life. Last session in my campaign, the party fighter was killed in a dual with a retired knight (The fighter started it). The player was a bit downtrodden, but knew what he was getting into so he accepted it. Players do need to realize that they can die. If they didn't have that sense of mortality, then they'd not worry about any battles and keep relying on the DM to "save their character" or something. The excitement of "Danger" is lost. Hopefully your players will understand that. As an aside, it was kind of you to carry the experience points earned to the new character. I think that makes the character's sacrifice a bit more meaningful. :)
Tyrian 10-27-04, 02:45 PM	Ditto. Especially after giving her an opportunity to walk away, your players (all of them, not just the one who lost her PC) have to accept that there are consequences to their actions. Now for the player, if she was really attached to this character, you could always let her "roll up" her char's twin sister who is out for revenge. That way you have some familial continuity, and (assuming the foe walked away) sets up some interesting RP opportunities for you and the player to explore. Good luck, it'll all turn out fine :) ..tyrian
ratt182 10-27-04, 06:17 PM	If it was as rough a time as you say, and I’m sure it was, then you should be congratulated. Not for killing a character, but for creating a world real enough for your players to get attached to their characters. It sounds like you are doing your job as a DM. You should also count yourself lucky to have players who are strong enough roleplayers to care about their characters. Sounds like you have a strong group. Just my two cp.
monkeywrench 10-27-04, 06:32 PM	is this a big deal in your guys games, if so how do you deal with it? Not to sound like I'm downplaying the experience...but I deal with it by casting (or having someone else cast) Raise Dead. That's why the spell (and all of it's associated spells) is there. It's hardly pricey enough that a friendly Cleric can't cast it for you.
Black Kitten 10-27-04, 06:56 PM	The world is made by logic. Logic means that both sides have equal chances (to an extend of course). This means that you CAN DIE. This is something I've told my players several times already. My players know I do not intend to kill them and they will not argue with me about it, unless it was a rather doubtful event (such as the Symbol of Death trap linked to the BBEG's liar I used :S (TPK)). I am a rather nice DM at that point though. Since my players often take a long time to get through some things, it may not be possible to raise a character and I hate having a player around the table with nothing to do. So usually those characters (especially if they died since bad luck, not stupidity) stabilize at -9. (which one PC forgot once and walked over the person with his climbing kit on his feet, but that wasn't my fault). The pity thing is though, my players are rarely attached enough to their characters to hit me over the head. Though I am able to make a fun game, the deep RP'ing is only now coming. Let's hope I can get someone sad soon.:schemes:
Shard of Suzail 10-27-04, 07:44 PM	I`ve lost a lot of characters in my time. I`ll try and list them, the games they were in and how they died. Well, lets see... Tatiana Elisa Markova, Vampire Game (elder), killed in combat. Allette, Vampire Game, killed in combat (on the Eiffel tower) Peacekeeper Naxa Bryar, Stargate game, shot by turncoat player character. Agasha Amaterasujin, Legend of the Five Rings Game, killed in combat. Asahina Chikaiko, Legend of the Five Rings Game, killed self to save honour. Tetsuokami, Kindred of the East Game, overcome by demon soul and vanished. Judicia of Tyr, Dungeons and Dragons, killed herself to redeem another. Marnak Oakstrutter, Dungeons and Dragons, killed in combat. Hurk the Half Orc, Dungeons and Dragons, accidentally killed by an ally. Century the Adept, Shadowrun Game, accidentally killed by an ally. * There are others, i dont remember them though. Those listed about are a lot of roleplay time between them, with the most notable being very experienced characters with several years of game play behind them. I`ve lost a lot of characters, many at the hands of other players, be it intentional killing or accidental attack. Breaks my heart when i remember some of those characters, i wrote stories for some of them and had pictures of them all. It still pains me to think about some of those characters. I really do take on my characters when i play them and i would say that they are pretty close to being real people and real parts of myself. I really miss them. Dungeons and Dragons is a strange game compared to others like vampire. Character mortality is very high. We suffer a character death every two or three scenarios, sometimes more and I dont get to know my d and d characters like i usually do in other games. Its good going if i have played the same character for four levels in a row. Ressurection is good, but too much death can make it pointless and unwanted. Likewise, for some reason, it leaves a strange taste in the mouth and seems "not right". I guess myself and my fellows are used to death being final for a character. Its a hard habit to break. Still, the level loss for ressurection drives the point home and makes it less than desirable overall. I would say this though, our campaign is very rough. The last session, those characters left alive had a serious think about their future. We`ve pretty much thrown alignment out the window now, since there is no longer any room for half measures. We started as a paladin party, but now we are doing the same quest and have effectively turned evil because its the only way to overcome the massive odds set against us in our chosen quest. There does come a point where too much death in a campaign will do that. Only so many paladins can march into the breach and die before the battered survivors turn to any means necessary to succeed. * I talked to one of my friends and he said that he thought character death should "have meaning". He asked me how many of my characters had died in some heroic manner. I thought about this and, in truth, perhaps only one or two fit that bill. Most of my characters have died in almost stupid or pointless circumstances. It is a rare day that a character dies in a manner that "seems right". Maybe there is no "right time" for a character to die. Even a heroic death is usually still a terrible loss to the player concerned. What frustrates me is that every one of my characters has died before it really achieved what i built it for. I often think that those "min max" players have the right idea. I have known a lot of players who really work to make characters tough and they, in the end, tend not to die. Though rarely do they make much of an impact in the game world, i find. My characters do tend to make a difference and do stand up for what they believe in...which is perhaps why so many dont survive. *** I would draw this conclusion. Perhaps the only time that I find character death unbearable is when allies let me down. All too often a character would be alive if other players showed backbone and put their character at risk too. Many of my characters died fighting alone. All too often the bad guys then hunted down the cowardly characters and killed them anyway. Parties should have an agreement that, if someone runs, everyone runs. If someone stands and fights, then everyone should stand by their side. All too often a battle could have been won, without casualties, if everyone worked together and took a risk. Sometimes the wizard has to get into melee and take a hit. Sometimes that single hit is the thing that will save a fighter's life.
ratt182 10-27-04, 09:08 PM	What a great post :( I think I am going to print that out.
Callista 10-28-04, 02:58 AM	I'm a relatively newbie player who, for the past year, has had a Dm who would not let anyone die... So I suppose I have a bit of a different perspective on character death than Shard of Suzail. My first experience with the death of an ally--not a PC, or even a longtime NPC--happened just last weekend, during an online game not run by my usual DM. Basically, my rogue, another PC, and several NPCs had been assigned to take and guard a cave which was being used by orcs. Our DM had told us this would be a hard fight, and it was; both my character and the other PC were unconscious at one time or another, and later we found out that our highest-level opponent (of several orcs with class levels) had been a level 5 druid. At any rate, one of our fellow NPCs, a spellcaster, immediately got into a duel with the druid, who had hidden himself so that the rest of us couldn't see him (I think Darkness or some such, but I'm not sure). The rest of us were in trouble ourselves and couldn't help her much (Entangle...). After a few rounds, we saw that the spellcaster had taken a lot of damage, though she'd apparently dealt quite a lot of damage herself, too. At this point my rogue yelled at her to take cover, or she'd be burnt to a crisp; the spellcaster ignored her, and two rounds later, dropped to the ground, dead. The interesting part about this is the role-playing opportunities it offers. My character is a wood elf whose "goal in life" is pretty much to protect her homeland from anyone who would threaten it or its inhabitants. So, she's not a typical rogue... think ranger or druid mindset, with a rogue skillset. She has a vendetta against orcs in general, and these orcs in particular. She's also a survivor who places an emphasis on strategy (a challenge for me--I'm not at all good at strategy) and enjoys a good fight. So now she's got this conflict going on: She's angry at the spellcaster for not taking cover and letting the orcs kill her; and she's angry at the orcs for killing yet another person. I think eventually she's going to figure out that not everyone has the same cool, calculated approach to battle that she does; and that the spellcaster, if she were similarly angry at the orcs, could easily have lost her head--a very forgiveable offense, and understandable to my character because, as I said, she hates orcs. Then there's the matter of witnessing the other NPCs talking about the death of their comrade, whom they have been working with for a while. My character, except for the anger thing, is pretty much emotionally detached as a matter of preference. Now she's going to see emotion, whether she likes it or not. I'll just have to run with this and see how it goes; it could be interesting. Anyhow, the point of this longish anecdote is that character death really offers a unique role-play opportunity to the other players. I don't think I'd mind one of my characters dying even senselessly. The other players have a chance to do a lot of things with a PC death--vengeance, fear, despair, even pride or a desire to carry on the dead character's legacy. Too much death, and death loses its meaning. Even in real life, being repeatedly exposed to comrades' deaths tends to make you hard and jaded, unable to really care about anyone; in D&D, it's worse, because players with characters that die after only a short time will not become interested in the character, preventing good RP. But, too little death--either because of repeated, easy resurrections or because, like with my DM, there's a fear of killing off PCs--makes life lose its meaning. When you become an adventurer, you sign your own death warrant and hope you manage to accomplish something before it's carried out. Without the reality of PC death, the sense of danger that makes the game so fascinating fades away. I think PC deaths are like cayenne pepper... a little goes a long way.
halo299 10-28-04, 04:25 PM	Especially after giving her an opportunity to walk away, your players (all of them, not just the one who lost her PC) have to accept that there are consequences to their actions. It wasn’t quite that simple. The deal was, she put down her bow and let stand aside while he walk away with the girl the party swore an oath to defend. There was nothing foolhardy about her death.
Tyrian 10-28-04, 05:47 PM	It wasn’t quite that simple. The deal was, she put down her bow and let stand aside while he walk away with the girl the party swore an oath to defend. There was nothing foolhardy about her death. Nor did I say that there was anything foolhardy about it :) I still stand by my original assertion that your players (and for that matter all players) have to be aware of consequences. In this case, it is the consequence of swearing an oath to protect someone. When the black suits in the Secret Service take their oath, they know from Day 1 that they may, and in fact are expected should the time arise, have to take a bullet for the President. Just because this is a fantasy world, doesn't mean that the expectation of mortality should change. Now I obviously don't know the actual wording of the oath ("Defend to the death", "Protect from harm", "Don't let the BBEG carry me away") so I can't comment on whether or not your player was fulfilling her oath by attacking the NPC. That's the player's judgement call, and from a DM's standpoint all you can do is roll the dice and let them fall where they may. As you said in your original post, you had told the players that mortality was a real issue. Having been on the other side of the screen, I know that sometimes it takes a PC death to hammer home that point. As has been pointed out above you handled the situation well, better than many DM's I've seen ranted about on these boards :) Time to move on. If your players (and their characters) have heavy hearts about the loss of a companion I say congratulations, you've followed through on what you told them might happen. And you have an excellent group of roleplayers who are now hopefully that much more prepared for the dangers you're going to throw at them in the future. ..tyrian