Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Super Guy 02-20-05, 11:55 AM	It seems like there are only two or so of us in my group that actually think anymore. I'm CONSTANTLY making up new things to do, whereas all but one or two of the rest of them are just pure hack 'n' slash, and I don't know how to solve this. For example, I secretly got the BBG's second-in-command to ally with us at the final battle. It never occured, of course, but if it had, the plan was so ingenius that the second-in-command had nothing to lose and Godhood to gain. No one takes initiatives like that. They'd just rather go fight everyone like there was no other way. My characters often develop relationships with NPCs that most of my group doesn't, and it's annoying to have so many static characters. Another example to show their hopelessness is this: once, when we were invading Vrak (the second-in-command, before I allied with him)'s castle, there was a sheet of silk that hung from the doorway and covered the entire entrance. First, a player goes through unsuspecting, and is electrified for some 15 or 20 damage. All of the players besides me and another are stupid enough to go "Uh, well, we have to go through it, so we do" and do so. My character, Sandor, who has a wry sense of humor and cares little for most of the people he is with, cooly and calmly opens up his backpack, takes out a wooden pole, and lifts up the cloth to walk under it with another party member. I was laughing for minutes at them OOC. I hope you see my problem: there's only two of us that do a lot of role-playing, one that tries, and the other three just roll-play. They don't think outside the box and will never try any new approach to the game. Anyone have any ideas how to interest them in playing differently, or am I stuck with them bogging me down?
Nomad4life 02-20-05, 01:03 PM	Have your GM write up a few encounters that you CAN’T hack your way out of- some non-combat encounters. Reward the players that do well. Rewarding players of this variety can often be far more effective than “punishing” them, and will give an incentive to actually think. If you’re looking to tone down combat encounters in general, I would recommend adopting a “hit-point-less” combat system, such as the one found in Blue Rose. That way, even a lowly goblin could still kill a level 14 badass in one lucky (but unlikely) hit. Making combat “truly” dangerous might also encourage players to “stay healthy” by any other means possible.
Razoreface 02-20-05, 01:10 PM	It seems like there are only two or so of us in my group that actually think anymore. I'm CONSTANTLY making up new things to do, whereas all but one or two of the rest of them are just pure hack 'n' slash, and I don't know how to solve this. Essentially, you can't. Even a DM who makes a true story-driven campaign will likely just have those guys sitting and shuffling dice waiting to hit something. I don't play now, because I can't find enough people around here who aren't hack and slashers, something I tend to find incredibly boring. First, a player goes through unsuspecting, and is electrified for some 15 or 20 damage. All of the players besides me and another are stupid enough to go "Uh, well, we have to go through it, so we do" and do so. Not to be short about it but maybe they're just really dumb. Even if it's a magical trap, it's something that simply stands in your way. None of them even stopped to consider if there was a way around, let alone a way to move it. That just strikes me as terminal "We have a cleric, he can fix it" H&S mentality.
J Milburn 02-20-05, 01:19 PM	Trust me, your all right as long as you are not dming.
Seeker95 02-20-05, 02:21 PM	It's the video games. Sucked the creativity out of an entire generation.
Nomad4life 02-20-05, 02:38 PM	It's the video games. Sucked the creativity out of an entire generation. ::Nods:: :weep: :weep: :weep:
Habronicus 02-20-05, 03:47 PM	It's the video games. Sucked the creativity out of an entire generation. Hmm... I don't think that's it. I've been playing videogames heavily since 1984 and pen and paper RPGs since 1992, so I'd be one to have my creativity "sucked" out of me, but it never happened, AFAICT. It's the parents fault, I tell you... ;) But seriously now, I think hack n slash gamers are naturally immature. Those I've met had one or more of the following in common: - Age under 20 - No girlfriend - Talk about women as something to have/use - Are willing to skip social events to play games or watch tv - Are into drugs, heavy-smoking and/or drinking - etc. This is *not* a professional opinion, by any means.
Sulaco 02-20-05, 04:38 PM	It's the video games. Sucked the creativity out of an entire generation. :rolleyes: What a load of crap. I've been playing video games since PONG and I have never lacked for creativity. Maybe these guys are just crap players.
Nomad4life 02-20-05, 04:47 PM	:rolleyes: What a load of crap. I've been playing video games since PONG and I have never lacked for creativity. Maybe these guys are just crap players. Yeah, but video games back in “the good ol’ days” still required imagination. Heck, you wouldn’t even know what the blips on the screen WERE except most games had cool artwork that came with them. I’m not saying video games ARE the cause of crap players… But I will contend that it took more imagination to get something out of the original Ultima than anything currently on the X-box. The fact is, I’ve run across my fare share of worthless players who didn’t play video games either… So I’m not sure what it is exactly that separates the good from the bad & ugly in the end. :confused:
Seeker95 02-20-05, 05:01 PM	I've been playing video games since PONG and I have never lacked for creativity.And there are plenty of smokers who haven't keeled over dead. Their "survival" does not decrease the health risks of smoking. My wife is a child development specialist. Vidoe games specifically, (and all flat-image entertainment in general) retard the development of the brain in children. While Sulaco may not lack for creativity, I doubt he started playing video games as early as kids these days. But I'll step down off my soapbox for now. Confident that a major contributor to the issue raised by Super Guy is video games. And television-as-babysitters. And VCR-as-pacifiers.
Razoreface 02-20-05, 05:30 PM	Hmm... I don't think that's it. I've been playing videogames heavily since 1984 and pen and paper RPGs since 1992, so I'd be one to have my creativity "sucked" out of me, but it never happened, AFAICT. Ditto.. I play tons of games, but I'm still far too verbose as a GM, frustrate people who just want to kill things, and once in a while write plotless short stories. (some not so short, but usually short because the initial lack of plot leads into a plot that leads the story into a wall where it seems to end) But I somewhat agree with what Nomad said.. it's not games, it's what games. Most H&Sers I know are diehard FPS players. CS, Halo. And Realtime "strategy" players. And the guys who would spend five hours laying out the specific stats, skill numbers, and analyzing framerate breakpoints for their Diablo 2 character once the character got to level 99 in cows. I say "most" H&Sers, because I only can think of one who wasn't like that. And what Seeker said.. My first computers were salvaged ex-college 8086's that eventually had games like Rogue and Sopwith. I didn't start getting those until I was 12, and got a real computer (386sx16) at 14. I didn't play a game that had more than four colors and wasn't primarily text until I was 16. The kids my stepmother does daycare for, they're from four to six, and come over and play Grand Theft Auto. They fight, and hit, and bite constantly. When I was that age, my mother (when she was around, a 25 year old divorced mother is a busy woman) would make my sister and I read, practice writing, do art. Our TV didn't really work, but we were only allowed to watch it on saturdays anyway. My sister, after a fairly destructive and troubled time as a teenager, settled into being a pretty gifted artist. She's also never really played video games, but did do a lot of drugs. If you want to try it, give out a computer RPG to your friends.. one that you can't just go along and kill everything in your way with. If they give up on it, they might be incurable H&S players.
Sulaco 02-20-05, 06:03 PM	My wife is a child development specialist. Vidoe games specifically, (and all flat-image entertainment in general) retard the development of the brain in children. While Sulaco may not lack for creativity, I doubt he started playing video games as early as kids these days. Perhaps your wife is using outdated information. The latest research suggests that not only do video games not negatively impact development but rather that they stimulate it, as well as having numerous other beneficial effects in regards to spatial awareness, information processing speed, visual acuity, motor skills, and even pain management. Oh, and I started playing video games when I was about 7 years old.
Super Guy 02-20-05, 06:04 PM	I suppose I somewhat agree with the video game comments. But I really think it depends on the video game. If you want to try it, give out a computer RPG to your friends.. one that you can't just go along and kill everything in your way with. If they give up on it, they might be incurable H&S players. There's one computer game that's DnD related that I played, called Baldur's Gate II. Now, that was one cool game. Unlike most DnD games which are entirely fighting and no RPing, you had a LOT to RP. At random intervals, the developing characters would have conversations with you. And sometimes, just with other NPCs in your group, without you able to say anything! It's very neat :) You could develop relationships with characters, depending on the sorts of things you said, and could choose what you wanted to do with accepting quests and what way to go about things... it was very fun. That's a game I recommend to any game players who like DnD.
Gristooth 02-20-05, 06:09 PM	I think some DMs also contriubte to this, as bad ones who can't or don't want to play outside of their "storylines" can railroad groups into taking standard, predictable actions. Player: We try *this and this and this* Then we *do this and this* DM: Nope, uh-uh, doesn't work. Can't do it. Can't find out anything. Player: ...fine, we roll for initiative... Play for some of these long enough, and you can forget that there are things you try to do that aren't listed on your character sheet.
Super Guy 02-20-05, 06:14 PM	Definitely what the above poster says has something to do with it. Learned helplessness, I believe it's called. When you learn that there's nothing you can do, you stop trying. That's not the case in my group, though. Our DM is usually the only DM 'cause he's very good at it. In fact, he doesn't even like being a player, because he has to watch other people butcher the job of DM. If he's annoyed enough he'll be like "What's the room made out of? How high is the ceiling? Where's the lighting? What type of masonry?" He's only flipped out once like that, though. Maybe twice :)
Nidair 02-20-05, 06:25 PM	World of Warcraft has now been released in Europe and our new campaign is just about to begin. Somehow I foresee a negtive connection between the two, very little RP from both DM and party members, and very much H&C. What's even worse, they suck at H&C so I guess I'll have to stick to online RP'ing. I can already see Gristooth's example happening.
Seeker95 02-20-05, 08:41 PM	Perhaps your wife is using outdated information. The latest research suggests that not only do video games not negatively impact development but rather that they stimulate it, as well as having numerous other beneficial effects in regards to spatial awareness, information processing speed, visual acuity, motor skills, and even pain management.:rofl: And which entertainment industry company sponsored that research? Did the word "kids" appear even once in the study?
Shatteredtower 02-20-05, 10:35 PM	Leaving off the video-game debate as a subject that will probably take generations to yield a final answer (we're fast learners, but we're not that fast), sometimes it really comes down to what people want to do. If all they want to do -- if all they feel matters -- is hit something, it's all you're going to get out of them unless you can persuade them that there is a more satisfying method for them, not for you. You can beg for more, but you really have to sell the issue. You may even have to acknowledge the results, even when you might be thinking, "Yeah, but I'd have done it better," or "I'd have done it this way..." Sometimes, it's not a lack of creativity. Sometimes, people are just too tired, too frustrated and not looking for more frustration (I learned that one the hard way), or simply too timid to go beyond "waiting for my turn to him something." Try something that takes them outside of the hit point and the victory condition. Have your character ask one of theirs about the condition of this nasty wound or that pair of slime-spattered boots. If you can encourage identity to matter, people sometimes start to care a bit more about the character as something other than a damage sink navigating a map and start to really think about means of making things easier on or more enjoyable for their characters. "Your body did not enjoy that! Your body said, 'That hurt!'" Maybe that's not worth the trouble to you, but sometimes, you have to explore a number of ways to help others get involved if you want to get them involved -- or you have to consider walking away from the table.
The Listener 02-20-05, 11:21 PM	I do agree that promoting creativity in the group is both the DM and Player's responsibility. Why should a player have to think hard when it is easier to just hack and slash? The DM could create situations and offer hints as to RP alternitives to a puzzle. On the other side, a player could promote DM creativity by asking questions about the world, about the people, "What's all being served in this tavern?"
Rallaster 02-21-05, 12:17 AM	My wife is a child development specialist. Vidoe games specifically, (and all flat-image entertainment in general) retard the development of the brain in children. That's interesting, I've been playing video games since I was four and I'm in the top 98-99% of my class of roughly 400 students.
The_Dark_One 02-21-05, 12:28 AM	Okay, let me just say that I don't believe the whole "negative effects of video games" thing. That having been said, it is interesting to note that the people arguing against it on this board are relying on the "I've played video games for as long as I can remember and I'm just fine" argument. There are two main problems with this approach. 1: We don't know you. The only thing we know about you we've learned through interacting with the persona you present while on these boards. This means we have to take your word that you are normal. 2: Its based on some pretty bizarre logic. Looking at it another way, let's assume that you really like oysters (raw) and you eat them every day of your life. Nothing has ever happened to you as the result of eating oysters. Thus, you conclude that oysters are perfectly safe and the danger of eating raw oysters is something cooked up (pardon the pun :embarrass ) by the media to increase ratings. See the problem?
HomebrewedMonster 02-21-05, 12:52 AM	:rofl: And which entertainment industry company sponsored that research? Did the word "kids" appear even once in the study? This is a horrible arguement, you will find just as many sources praising video games (usually sponsored by a game developer) and those that desecrate it (usually sponsored by anti-gaming organizations and women like Mrs. Gore).
Habronicus 02-21-05, 01:10 AM	1: We don't know you. The only thing we know about you we've learned through interacting with the persona you present while on these boards. This means we have to take your word that you are normal. True, but the same can be applied to those who claim to have made scientific research on the subject (or know someone who did) - all we have is his/her word. 2: Its based on some pretty bizarre logic. Looking at it another way, let's assume that you really like oysters (raw) and you eat them every day of your life. Nothing has ever happened to you as the result of eating oysters. Thus, you conclude that oysters are perfectly safe and the danger of eating raw oysters is something cooked up (pardon the pun :embarrass ) by the media to increase ratings. See the problem? I don't think that works well as an analogy. In my case, having been a videogame reviewer for some years, I can tell you that I've read many articles and research projects on the influence of videogames. My opinion is that it's mostly biased crap. Videogames, at most, are the trigger for things which are already lodged inside a human's brain. If doctors, psychologists in particular, knew how to spot the problem beforehand, they could suggest for those people to avoid that which I call "trigger-elements", which can be videogames, movies, lyrics from a song, etc. Unfortunately, current medecine doesn't go that far, and eliminating the "trigger-elements" doesn't sound like more than a temporary solution. Or, dare I say, a way to cover the real problem. Just my two coppers... ;)
The_Dark_One 02-21-05, 01:20 AM	My opinion is that it's mostly biased crap. Well, then, we agree. :D
HomebrewedMonster 02-21-05, 03:05 AM	Well, then, we agree. :D :clap: Watch out, he's from jersey.
a_microwave_oven 02-21-05, 04:01 AM	It's the video games. Sucked the creativity out of an entire generation. :dancin: Yaaa, my generation got mentioned on the internet!! wait Aww man, my creativity. . . :raincloud
Draco Strang 02-21-05, 04:53 AM	That's interesting, I've been playing video games since I was four and I'm in the top 98-99% of my class of roughly 400 students. Do you mean 98th or 99th percentile? Otherwise, you're saying that you're smarter than a whopping 4 or 8 percent of your classmates. Just a matter of perspective :)
Leibel 02-21-05, 07:44 PM	Rollplayers ruining your game eh? Hate to say it but join the club.. I'll not get into the scientific/psychological debate(although I'm taking a psych class) but I'll say that based off of my unscientific observations of my players the power gamers usually do play video games, magic, warhammer, etc. Still that does not mean those games kill roleplaying - I play starcraft(classics never die), warhammer and magic and have thought up a very detailed world history, complicated NPC's w/motivations for their actions that are understandable, personalities and plots for adventures. Sure powergamers ruin it but there are those gem players who actually roleplay and make it worthwhile. And rewarding roleplayers is better than punishing rollplayers... I gave a players character a mansion because his rogue roleplayed.
Razoreface 02-21-05, 09:27 PM	I think some DMs also contriubte to this, as bad ones who can't or don't want to play outside of their "storylines" can railroad groups into taking standard, predictable actions. Hell yeah. Once, I was invited to a Champions campaign. I dutifully made a shotgun-toting ex-Marine. Then was smashed by Champions rules that had a shotgun consume 3/4 of my points. So I switched to a guy who was super fast.. I mean that. He acted on 11 out of 12 phases. The very first combat, the GM started describing stuff happening. Half the players were like me, completely new to the system and the group. Each piped up saying they wanted to do something.. the GM kept saying "you're not fast enough." So then the wall exploded, and the GM says "fifty guys flood in to the room holding rifles." and I said, when the wall explodes I dive behind a table. And he says.. you guessed it. "Sorry, you're not fast enough."
MrkGrismer 02-22-05, 04:08 PM	Just to add to the anedoctal evidence, I seem to have the opposite. In the group I run, the hack&slashers are the ones that don't play videogames, while the roleplayers are the ones that do. [shrug] it is all meaningless...
Nomad4life 02-22-05, 04:25 PM	I think there’s a strong correlation between the twinkmuch D&D players and the type of video gamers that CHEAT. In other words, not just “playing” them but loading on all the codes and downloading hacks for online games. My former roommate was like that, anyway. He had some program that let him cheat at Counter-Strike that he used all the time (heck, he couldn’t play without it.) Same with Starcraft. When he tried to play D&D with us, we threw him out in the first session because he was such an annoying, whiney, metagaming powertwink. So maybe that has something to do with it. In other words, the GAMES themselves don’t “cause” the lack of creativity. Rather, there is a “worthless” personality type that likes to ruin any game they can get their hands on, video game or not.
Sulaco 02-22-05, 04:54 PM	:rofl: And which entertainment industry company sponsored that research? Did the word "kids" appear even once in the study? Actually it was a series of studies from a number of doctors, psychologists, and developmental professionals. Jsut cos you are unaware of it, don't belittle it. That is just petty. :nonono:
MrkGrismer 02-22-05, 05:51 PM	Studies of the effects of video game use on children are varied and contradictory. Even studies involving the physiological health-based pros and cons of video game use by children fail to present a clear picture of video games as a positive or negative influence. On the one hand, video games have been viewed as a potential health detriment because they may replace other forms of exercise with sedentary game play. While some video game play has been observed to raise physical activity rates up to 80%, studies have not found this exercise suitable for improved fitness in children. Other physical detriments of play include Nintendinitis, a short-term injury, first noted in 1990, that develops as a result of repeated pressing of a game controller button with the right thumb (Dorman, 1997). However, a number of physiological benefits, especially in the areas of coordination and reflexes, have been identified with video game use. In a 1989 study, both male and female subjects’ reaction time decreased in a series of tests after the subjects played video games for 15 minutes, indicating – according to the study’s authors – that video game use causes a decrease in reaction time (Fildes & Allan, 1989). Two years later, a similar study of 105 seven- to nine-year-old children noted a positive correlation between a subject’s video game experience and his or her ability to accurately and consistently anticipate the timing of a moving light on a Bassin Timer (Kuhlman & Beitel, 1991). From these results, the study’s authors concluded not only that video game experience aided hand-eye coordination and reflexes, but that gender differences observed in this area might be negated by increasing video game experience for females. These studies provide a strong argument that video games improve some motor skills. Read the entire thing at: http://www.unc.edu/~jivory/video.html (note: this is probably not the one Sulaco was referring to)
Newpaintbrush 02-23-05, 10:51 AM	pretty good post by shatteredtower; recommend going back and reading it on first page if ya missed it. I'd say: 1. Some people are hack and slashers. There is nothing you can do about it. See, you have this idea "I want them not to be hack and slashers". THey have this idea "I want to hack and slash". In the end, if you FORCE them to not hack and slash, they don't have fun, then you don't have fun. 2. I think videogamers . . . well, you know, it's difficult to say. Let's say you have four people running. One is doing it because he sees an unattended Twinkie on a park bench ten yards away. One is doing it because he bet his buddy that he could outrun the Twinkie-muncher. The third is doing it because he thinks aliens are going to get him if he doesn't run. The fourth is in training for a marathon. See, saying someone that plays videogames is a hack and slasher is, IMHO, not going to be accurate. The fact is, video games are widely available, and there is heavy media promoting their use. Used to be, video games were for those that could afford computers. These days, just about anyone can afford a handheld, or if not, pop over to a buddy's house. Thus, the analogy to running. Playing videogames isn't really so much of a conscious *choice* any more; it's more like an environmental element. You're going to run into video games sooner or later. Given that, people play video games for different reasons. To eat up time is one, to win another, to find a medium for entertainment and stimulation another. Generally, I'd say only the ones that play video games to win are the ones that are going to be bad to play with - if they don't "win" their D&D game, they are going to be sore. Those that play to eat up time might have lots to bring to a D&D game. Or, they might just veg out. Those that play to entertain themselves might bring creativity, or might just be "ya I lop off the leg of the innkeeper". Thoe that play for mental stimulation might ask a lot of game-relevant questions, or they might just be min-maxers. So where's all this go? What's that theme song for Pokemon? It's a wide world or something like that . . . oh well. Me, I deplore having players that aren't creative BUT I have to admit I am hella responsible as DM. If I say "You walk into a room" - not "You walk through the high stone archway into a small cell, about ten by ten feet, twenty feet high, illuminated only by a barred window about fifteen feet up" - well, can I blame my players for saying "I pull out my SWORD!" instead of "I don't go in; I look around first" . . .
Thorak 02-23-05, 11:30 AM	Just to weigh in on the videogame debate; I'm a big gamer. I started on our old Apple IIe, when I had to program them myself at age 7. I have been playing videogames for over 20 years, including most of my developmental period. I have owned a nintendo, a super nintendo, and now a Gamecube, and have spent hours playing on other systems at friend's houses, especially in the in-between period I'm missing, when it was my friend with the N64 who everyone hung out with and played on his system. And no, I'm not paid by Nintendo, nor am I claiming it's the best system. I bought my Gamecube mostly for certain Nintendo-only franchises, especially Metroid. Personal choice, I would say the PS2 is generally a better system overall. I won't go into stats, because that would be immodest, but I do well. I'm graduating this spring with an Honours BA and (hopefully) going into graduate studies; I have a professor willing to take me on for my MA, just need to get the application finalized. I also have a novel I'm trying to write as a hobby, that's currently on hold because of my workload. I'm hardly uncreative. The only effect I can see videogames having is in keeping kids sitting in one place for long periods of time, and thus not encouraging more athletic pursuits. Which is a worry factor, but one easily solved through parenting. Death of creativity? I fail to see how video games stifle creativity; it exposes them to images and plots the kids might not otherwise be exposed to. It encourages them to think to solve problems. If your argument is that it's a visual medium, and thus they aren't forced to imagine the scene as they do with books, then I assume you also think that classical paintings like the Mona Lisa stifle creativity. Or are you really trying to claim that it's because the images are moving that somehow does it? I can't understand this argument, and IMHO it's merely a reactionary attack against gaming companies by parents who've failed their children and need someone to blame. The same parents who will also attack certain styles of music for making their kids evil. It's not these things causing issues, it's the lack of parenting the kids recieve. I played videogames as a kid. But I also participated in provincial cross country ski races, and played other sports like soccer in the summer. Because my parents encouraged activity. That's called parenting, making sure your kids get what they need. It's not various companies' responsibility to do this.
The_Dark_One 02-23-05, 01:04 PM	I play video games for the same reason that I read books. I do it because I get caught up in the story and I want to find out what happens next. Does that make me a good gamer or a bad one?
Ogre4Hire 02-23-05, 01:08 PM	I play video games for the same reason that I read books. I do it because I get caught up in the story and I want to find out what happens next. Does that make me a good gamer or a bad one? Yes. I've found that playing video games, or the way in which a person plays video games, has absolutely no effect on the way a person plays D&D.
Thailfi 02-23-05, 01:34 PM	For example, I secretly got the BBG's second-in-command to ally with us at the final battle. It never occured, of course, but if it had, the plan was so ingenius that the second-in-command had nothing to lose and Godhood to gain. No one takes initiatives like that. They'd just rather go fight everyone like there was no other way. Just curious, if your game is all about roll playing, how did this happen? It sounds like you and the DM role played this scenario out and then let the other players trample over you. If you have the DM in your corner and you role played events out this far, how is it that your plan never came to fruition? We have stuff like this all the time in our group. From trying to convince evil underlings to switch sides to evil underlings trying to trick the party or get a memer to betray the rest of the party either knowingly or unknowingly.
Super Guy 02-23-05, 01:43 PM	Just curious, if your game is all about roll playing, how did this happen? It sounds like you and the DM role played this scenario out and then let the other players trample over you. If you have the DM in your corner and you role played events out this far, how is it that your plan never came to fruition? Oh, sorry, that wasn't supposed to sound like I was blaming them for it. The reason it didn't work out in the end is because the BBEG surprised us. We didn't expect him to be guarding his phylactery- we expected him to be guarding his tower, where the ceremony was to take place. He would effectively gain godhood if he was the one in this ceremony, since he was currently the most powerful humanoid/augmented humanoid on the world. The thing is, he had used some form of trickery to convince people that the Gods had called for a tournament, and the one who survived the tournament would be the one who attained godhood. I don't know what he did, but it worked (trust me, he can make it work). And... well, he didn't participate. All of his foes killed themselves. That's why he wasn't guarding his tower- the only people that were a threat to him that were still alive were us! So we didn't have time to contact Vrak, his second-in-command, for the final battle.
Shaitan0.2beta 02-23-05, 03:11 PM	There is a great way of teachin players that not all suituations can be resolved by hack 'n' slash. I use it on a lot of my new players and it can even be fount in a 1st level net adventure supplement by wizards "The Burning Plague". Step 1: Start with a cavern or a large room. Put some (10 is enough) Kobolds (or whatever) with crossbows on a ledge, or terrace, that the PCs can't reach witouth a difficult climb. Give them something to hide behind giving total cover (stalactites eg.) once the Kobolds start peppering them with volleys of arrows. Adding a Kobold sorcerer to harras them with spells is a nice touch. Step 2: The following situation will happen. Kobolds can't climb down to get them, because the PC's will dispach them easily, and the PC can't emerge from their cover while the Kobolds are on the ledge because getting stuck full of crossbow bolts can get you killed. Step 3: Make the Kobolds open to negotiations once they figure they can't get the PC's in the open. That'll result in some roleplaying, and will make them think a bit before charging into anything next time. :D
Sulaco 02-23-05, 03:44 PM	My wife is a child development specialist. Vidoe games specifically, (and all flat-image entertainment in general) retard the development of the brain in children. While Sulaco may not lack for creativity, I doubt he started playing video games as early as kids these days. It's amazing anyone could even have the brainpower to formulate such a study, what with the centuries of mental degradation in youth caused by television, rock and roll music, movies, loud opera, and dangerously rhetorical philosophers. Video games are just the latest hot-button McGuffin, nothing more. And I have to admit this is a first for me. I have heard of the Argumentum ad verecundiam ("I am an expert so what I say must be true") but I've never seen it once-removed like this ("My wife is an expert so what I say must be true").
Thorak 02-23-05, 04:17 PM	It's amazing anyone could even have the brainpower to formulate such a study, what with the centuries of mental degradation in youth caused by television, rock and roll music, movies, loud opera, and dangerously rhetorical philosophers. Video games are just the latest hot-button McGuffin, nothing more. And I have to admit this is a first for me. I have heard of the Argumentum ad verecundiam ("I am an expert so what I say must be true") but I've never seen it once-removed like this ("My wife is an expert so what I say must be true"). I would also like to know, as I intimated in my own post, their stance on books. Those are "flat-image entertainment" by any definition of the word, since they're written on flat pieces of paper, and they pretty much require inactivity on the part of the reader, as much or more than TV or video games. Unless, of course, they somehow mean that because the flat images they refer to are visual rather than literary, they're bad. In which case, I expect them to condemn all forms of artistic painting. Unless they mean it's the movement of the medium. Which frankly, seems ridiculous. Moving images are somehow more devoid of meaning than still ones? What, exactly, is it about motion that nullifies meaning? And shouldn't we then be preventing our children from seeing anything move, ever? Or is it that they don't like interactivity? Are they honestly suggesting kids should sit there and merely absorb, rather than participate, for optimal development? Yes, if you sit your child in front of the television all day so you can get chores done and not have to worry about them, it might stunt them intellectually. Because you probably have it turned to Barney or something equally useless. I doubt parents would have such a big issue if their kids were watching Discovery or History, with their parents there to explain anything they didn't understand. And that, my friends, is what some of us like to call parenting. Parent your children. That's your duty for whelping them. If you rely on one thing to entertain them, then yes, they may not develop too well from lack of stimulation. Too much of anything is bad. Even reading; social skills will suffer in the child who does nothing but read all day, at least TV presents some socialization they can observe. In short; this isn't video games' fault. It's the fault of the parents. It's like blaming the rod for children getting beaten with it.
Seeker95 02-23-05, 04:37 PM	In short; this isn't video games' fault. It's the fault of the parents. It's like blaming the rod for children getting beaten with it.If the Rod was presented by every media outlet as the best means of disciplining children, this analogy might hold up. Video games are tied to every media form we have. Got a movie you want to make? Get the video game license for it. Got a new toy you want to sell? Make a video game for it first. Got a new cartoon idea? Better make it video game worthy. You don't have to believe me. Rules and trends are not proven or disproven by the individual. Plenty of smokers have not died of lung cancer. But the link is there. No matter how much the cigarette companies pay to cover it up. Watch kids watching television. Watch kids playing video games. Watch these same kids given nothing but a set of legos. If they don't have a set of "make the new dino-robot-super-manga-blaster-gun" instructions, they can't do a damn thing with them. And god forbid they have to come up with something to do if the electricity is out. Or talk with another kid about something that doesn't involve video games. Anyway, I'm done with this (admittedly, probably to most folks' relief).
Nomad4life 02-23-05, 04:57 PM	Watch these same kids given nothing but a set of legos. If they don't have a set of "make the new dino-robot-super-manga-blaster-gun" instructions, they can't do a damn thing with them. *Sigh* I had another research proposal shot down today. This made me realize something important to remember: even if video games DO impair creativity, we live in a society that apparently no longer “needs” or “wants” creativity. That kid who can’t build anything out of legos? He’ll probably take my job from me someday, if he’s a mindless enough cog in the machine. :mad:
Sulaco 02-23-05, 05:54 PM	Plenty of smokers have not died of lung cancer. But the link is there. No matter how much the cigarette companies pay to cover it up. This is a spurious analogy. There is a proven causal link between ingesting carcinogens and getting cancer. There is no proven causal link between playing video games and stagnated mental development. Watch kids watching television. Watch kids playing video games. Watch these same kids given nothing but a set of legos. If they don't have a set of "make the new dino-robot-super-manga-blaster-gun" instructions, they can't do a damn thing with them. And god forbid they have to come up with something to do if the electricity is out. Or talk with another kid about something that doesn't involve video games. Nonsense. That is conjecture and baseless generalization and you know it.
Sulaco 02-23-05, 06:00 PM	This made me realize something important to remember: even if video games DO impair creativity, we live in a society that apparently no longer “needs” or “wants” creativity. Now that I believe. All you need do is look at what school programs get cut first to save money - music, art, drama...the "soft" subjects - to realize that we as a society do not value creativity. We no longer live in an age of reason, we live in a dictatorship of reason. Science, math, technology - these are viewed as inherently more valuable than creativity and artistic expression. Tis sad indeed. I weep for the future.
MrkGrismer 02-23-05, 06:06 PM	On all fronts, the issue of video game effects on children is a disputed one. Varied research, some based on theoretical models, has claimed a number of negative effects, including short- and long-term aggression, delinquency, poor academic performance, low self-esteem and poor social skills, and increased propensity toward illegal or anti-social acts. However, research and theory refuting these claims also exists, preventing the formation of a clear model of video game effects. Further clouding the issue is the fact that video games have evolved rapidly, both in technological aspects and message content. This certainty brings into question the relevance and relationship between studies involving products from different “eras” in the history of video games. While public concern regarding video game effects has existed for almost as long as the medium itself, reports linking video games to recent tragedies involving adolescent acts of violence has given the issue more weight and visibility than ever in the national agenda. Video games are a very prevalent part of the lives of children in the United States and strong attitudes regarding their effects abound. However, a clear understanding of the games’ role in child development is lacking. In the absence of a consensus opinion or a well-established ratings system, parents often are advised to make their own decisions to observe and regulate their children’s consumption of video games. MIT media scholar Henry Jenkins notes, “So far, most of the conversation about Littleton has reflected a desire to understand what the media are doing to our children. Instead, we should be focusing on what our children are doing with the media” (quoted in Hanson, 1999, p. 26). Unfortunately, literature presented here suggests that many parents are ill-informed concerning the nature of their children’s video game use. Like other mass media sources, video games have received both praise and criticism, and debate over video game effects is not likely to subside soon. However, the concern about the issue brought on by recent tragedies and subsequent reports of video game influence on violence has created great demand for agreement on video effects, or, lacking that, cooperation in attempts to gain insight on the issue. As Lang states: “The problem is societal. We all need to come together on this issue because, like it or not, there will always be the one person who walks a thin line and just needs a nudge in a society brimming with violent messages and guns at easy access” (quoted in Gillespie, 2000). http://www.unc.edu/~jivory/video.html
Thorak 02-23-05, 07:54 PM	Watch kids watching television. Watch kids playing video games. Watch these same kids given nothing but a set of legos. If they don't have a set of "make the new dino-robot-super-manga-blaster-gun" instructions, they can't do a damn thing with them. I call shenanigans. I have a massive tub full of Lego. I got Lego for Christmas every year. I still get some Lego every year, though now it's just a stocking stuffer because I'm 27, because of how much I loved it as a kid. And I would make the new "dino-robot-super-manga-blaster-gun", by the instructions, and then proceed to rip it apart and make something entirely new. Usually, not even connected to anything I'd been watching on TV, just stuff entirely from my own imagination. I've still got a spaceship I made at age 11 that, IMHO, still looks pretty freaking cool, better than the stuff they're putting out these days anyway. And I've played videogames that whole time. Am I an exception to everything, or is your logic here entirely flawed because you don't have anything but bile and vehemence to base it on? And god forbid they have to come up with something to do if the electricity is out. Or talk with another kid about something that doesn't involve video games. Beyond the Lego, I also played sports until I was 16 (and only then stopped because of what I found out, 2 years ago, was asthma), was into board games, was happy as a clam with a book and a candle or lantern to read by, etc, etc. As for talking to other kids; I was a boy scout for 4 years, and then a junior leader for 2. Beyond my normal circle of friends, only about half of whom play video games. My wife isn't a big gamer, and we find plenty to talk about.
Super Guy 02-23-05, 08:30 PM	We no longer live in an age of reason, we live in a dictatorship of reason. Science, math, technology - these are viewed as inherently more valuable than creativity and artistic expression. I wouldn't even give it that much credit. I'm a highschool senior (yeah, I know, we think we rock the world today, we'll be freshmen in college next year), and in my high school, now we're going to have to cut advanced programs, so that there aren't any, because we can't afford them. The drama isn't even part of the school, it functions on its own and works with the school. Those things go first, then the advanced classes. What is left? The average. I know this is way off-topic, but I just wanted to throw that in.
simen_88 02-23-05, 08:45 PM	In my high school, there are about 1000 students. Less than 130 of them get to have music, dance or drama classes. Half learn dancing for three years, the other half learns music. They only get two hours of drama each week, and only their first year. Kind of puts things in perspective.
lugnut71 02-23-05, 08:48 PM	I also loved Legos and probably played more video games then just about anybody here. Instructions for building things heck I lost all but like two books and I built plenty of awsome things. I had castle Legos and Space ones. I like the Ice Planet ones the best cause they had little white beards. The fact of the matter is that not using your imagination stifles creativity. In some cases video games help us to use it sometimes they kill it but so do books, movies, rocks to the head, and paintings.
Edymnion 02-23-05, 11:42 PM	Actually, subraces and PrC are a bigger threat to creativity around here than anything else. How many times on the boards have you seen people that absolutely believe that it is impossible to play an assassin character without actually taking levels in the Assassin PrC? Or that think the only way to play a barbaric elf is to play the Wild Elf subrace? I mean, there is no character concept that you can't build using the 3 generic classes from Unearthed Arcana; Warrior, Expert, and Spellcaster (or the more traditional 4 base classes; Wizard, Cleric, Fighter, and Rogue), and a some roleplaying. None. There are class abilities you can't replicate, but no concepts. A character that flies into a rage when going into battle can easily be done with just being a plain old Fighter with some roleplaying. You don't need any kind of actual mechanical alteration to your stats to play the character. But so many people these days can't seem to understand this. Is it easier and more efficient to use all of the subraces and PrC and all that? Yes, it is. But they have been perverted from their original purpose. They were originally ment as a way to make your character fit your roleplaying better. Now its become more about roleplaying your character to fit your class combinations better. PrC and subraces have become crutches people use to hobble around with thier roleplaying, instead of getting up and walking on their own two legs.
Nomad4life 02-24-05, 12:22 AM	It is for just the reasons Edymnion mentioned that we are completely converting to Green Ronin's "True20" game mechanics.
The Shaman 02-24-05, 12:47 AM	I weep for the future. Of course, if the future is as artistically malnourished as you expect, they'll never know what they're missing. On a related tangent, several years ago I lectured at a local college and the students were stunned when I explained that yes, in a 300-level college course, spelling and grammar counted toward their grades on their term papers. One day after class a student approached me after I delivered an impromptu biographical sketch of a historical figure related to the course topic and had the temerity to ask me if it would be on the test. I told her it could be, and she replied that in the future I should let the class know that so they remembered to take notes - she seemed quite earnest in explaining that since it was an ecology course, there shouldn't be any "like, history stuff" (yes, that's an honest to gawd quote) on the exams. Is creativity dead? I don't think so - I see amazing, probing work by local artists, craftsfolk, musicians, and poets that together tells me that not all art is distilled and homogenized and cut with seltzer and baby laxative quite yet. I see stuff on these boards from time to time that just knocks me back on my heels and catapults me heart and mind into another world. Sometimes it takes a little work to find the kernels amid the chaff, but it's always worth the effort in the long run. At times I feel that we live in a world of diminishing expectations with respect to what it means to be an educated person, that creativity and curiosity and original experience are becoming minority values in societies made fat and happy and slow by an excess of shovel-fed repackaged, reconstituted pablum catering to the most base tastes and instincts of the masses. Then I laugh at myself for being such an arrogant elitist and consider that if Shakespeare was alive today, he'd be the lead writer on The Sopranos, or maybe Desperate Housewives. I don't know if this really adds anything to the discussion, but there it is.
oak 02-24-05, 01:30 AM	Interesting thread. A quick response to the video game sub-thread: I don't see the point in arguing over cause/affect, when none of the actual studies (as opposed to the gibberish articles created by game-industry funded projects or the American Family Assocation Website, or whatever) I have read claim anything other than a secondary correlation at best (and many feel like the strongest correlation is that kids left unsupervised often become discipline problems or dumb-asses - and that unsupervised kids are more likely to be video gamers). Not a topic worth all the attention it gets, IMO. On the original question - my initial comment is just that some gamers are less creative and/or goal-oriented than others, so don't worry about it and enjoy the fun. If it isn't fun for you, then here are some ideas: - Ask them to be more creative openly and tell them why (I doubt they are plain dumb, but probably just prefer a different style of play than you). - Ask the DM (in front of them, again - openly and quickly) to create scenarios that strongly favor clever solutions. - Take a turn as a DM and run scenarios that require a certain type of play. Tell them prior to character creation what kind of scenarios you have planned, and that you will pull no punches (I prefer running this kind of adventure - and roll all dice in open view - but there is always a way to put the bad guys at a huge disadvantage if you think strategically). - Get them more involved in your "ingenous" plans directly, are you sure you aren't being a bit of a self-centered drama-queen that is slowing down the adventure pacing for his own spotlight-hogging? - as you give off some of that aura (see below). Best of luck, - Oak PS: I imagine you were just ranting and I shouldn't nit-pick your initial post, but my least favorite gamers in my history weren't the supposed "roll-players" - but the ones who said/did things like this: 1) "I was laughing for minutes at them OOC." 2) Allow your comrades to walk through a trap, when your quick wit could have saved them with a quick, "Stay back my friends - I can get us through this un-injured!" 3) "the plan was so ingenius that the second-in-command had nothing to lose and Godhood to gain. No one takes initiatives like that." Blah blah... talk about how clever you are... blah blah. 4) "has a wry sense of humor and cares little for most of the people he is with" Again, I doubt you are, but be careful you and Sandor don't become a jerky fops...
Super Guy 02-24-05, 01:08 PM	1) "I was laughing for minutes at them OOC." 2) Allow your comrades to walk through a trap, when your quick wit could have saved them with a quick, "Stay back my friends - I can get us through this un-injured!" 3) "the plan was so ingenius that the second-in-command had nothing to lose and Godhood to gain. No one takes initiatives like that." Blah blah... talk about how clever you are... blah blah. 4) "has a wry sense of humor and cares little for most of the people he is with" Again, I doubt you are, but be careful you and Sandor don't become a jerky fops... No no no, don't worry- my friends would probably say I'm probably the most polite. Saying "Laughing at them" should've been more like "pulling their legs", not calling them stupid. They weren't offended. We constantly make fun of ourselves or eachother, depending on when the best situations arrive, it's just how we get along. Sandor is very callous and neutral. He has some sadistic tendencies. I was just roleplaying him to my best effect, just as you might roleplay a Chaotic Evil person and do evil things but not be evil in real life. Finally, I didn't mean to come off as c0cky about part 3, I just needed to show that the second-in-command had a good reason to leave, and not that it was just a half-baked plan and my DM was stupid enough to let it fly. So, yeah, in conclusion, my DnD group really are some of my best friends. We get along in a rough way, but I'm not trying to say that I'm better than any of them.
Seeker95 02-24-05, 01:15 PM	We get along in a rough way, but I'm not trying to say that I'm better than any of them.Yes you are. I don't mean that you're trying to say that you're better than they. I mean you are better than they! :D
Super Guy 02-24-05, 01:20 PM	Yes you are. I don't mean that you're trying to say that you're better than they. I mean you are better than they! :D :rofl: You had me worried there and I was getting defensive for a second. Really, though, of course, they're all a good bunch. I'm not the only roleplayer in the group, either, it's just a few hack 'n' slashers. Oddly enough, one of them is probably one of the more creative and adventurous people I know. :confused:
ORC_Tuhteth 02-24-05, 01:51 PM	Fair warning: It's one thing to disagree with someone, and that's fine -- it is another thing entirely to say insulting things about the person with whom you disagree, and that's definitely not okay. Avoid making your posts personal or we'll have to take official disciplinary action.
Azual 02-24-05, 05:56 PM	youll find that many hack an slash character play video games They tend to treat their character like an avatar, 'the storyline is done by the DM, so i just press X and skip through all the fluff to go kill something' Its sad really :D I once has somebady say "Dude, Roleplaying is boring! I wanna kill something" I wish i could strangle people when they say that, or just give them my copy of FFX and tell them to never come back
Azual 02-24-05, 06:03 PM	I Edit my Opinion Video Game such as RTS (Real Time STRATEGY) and MMORPG's (Like Star Wars Galaxies) are excellent stimulators of thought and problemsolving. However games like Quake III and other First-Person Shooters are just KILLKILLKILL Now, Certain games are bad for you, games that require you to just kill things are going to lessen your brain activity but games that require Thought (like 3D Chess or Stronghold:Crusader) are going to make you better equipped to handle Problems. I tell you, my Old DM could not put up one castle i couldnt seige after playing Stronghold On a side note: MMORPG's are too addicting, infact, i would go for a crack habit if you are considering Everquest
Sulaco 02-24-05, 06:23 PM	I once has somebady say "Dude, Roleplaying is boring! I wanna kill something" I wish i could strangle people when they say that, or just give them my copy of FFX and tell them to never come back I knew a guy who would ocassionaly go to sleep on the floor, telling us to "wake him when the fighting starts". Oh, and he'd never played a video game in his life. Bad players are just bad players, other interests or hobbies have nothing to do with it.
Sulaco 02-24-05, 06:31 PM	I Edit my Opinion Video Game such as RTS (Real Time STRATEGY) and MMORPG's (Like Star Wars Galaxies) are excellent stimulators of thought and problemsolving. However games like Quake III and other First-Person Shooters are just KILLKILLKILL Now, Certain games are bad for you, games that require you to just kill things are going to lessen your brain activity but games that require Thought (like 3D Chess or Stronghold:Crusader) are going to make you better equipped to handle Problems. From what orifice are you pulling this twaddle? Games with violent content do not "lessen your brain activity" and neither are they "bad for you". My absolute favourite games are the GTA series, I play them all the time and engage in many violent and deplorable acts within the game. In real life I have a high IQ, I work in a creative field, I write professionaly, I paint and enjoy art, music, and philosophy. I absolutely abhor violence and am law-abiding to a fault (I don't even jaywalk unless there is no other option). Violent games are not "bad for me" and have not "lessened my brain activity". Please people, stop trying to pass of opinion as fact.
Thorak 02-24-05, 06:55 PM	I gotta agree with Sulaco. Not only is there no evidence, your differentiation defies logic. Why wouldn't FPS games involving killing be just as good at promoting thinking as MMORPGs? Heck, you often have less time to react, and have to plan faster in an FPS. Most MMORPGs I've tried have been a lot less stimulating than an FPS, I play them for A> roleplaying and B> something that keeps me entertained between new FPS type games. I've also had great fun with the GTA games. If you're gonna try and claim this stuff, try finding an actual, recent study, not funded by a group who wants video games, especially violent ones, to be banned. There's nothing about violent media that encourages violence. If that were true, books with violence would be just as bad as anything else. And I don't see anyone trying to ban books.
simen_88 02-24-05, 07:19 PM	FPS games have actually been proved to increase your reflexes. And my experience with MMORPGs show that most people become min/maxing analphabetes when they play. Seriously, some of the most devoted MMORPGers I know have never written a coherent word (much less a sentence) in-game.
MrkGrismer 02-24-05, 10:35 PM	FPS games have actually been proved to increase your reflexes. And my experience with MMORPGs show that most people become min/maxing analphabetes when they play. Seriously, some of the most devoted MMORPGers I know have never written a coherent word (much less a sentence) in-game. n s n n n e n w n f f f cast fireball use heal f f f s w n
Thorak 02-24-05, 10:40 PM	n s n n n e n w n f f f cast fireball use heal f f f s w n Ahh, this reminds me of the days way back in '96-7 when I played MUDs, and there was one I played that was more spread-out than most, and I could run entirely from one town, through two others and the intervening countryside, to reach my target, typing it in before the screen refreshed, so I'd type for 30 seconds and wait 2 minutes to get there. Then I discovered macro programs, and it went all to heck.
psionichamster 02-24-05, 11:39 PM	well, luckily, not everyone has had their creative juices sucked out of them... whoever said it was a culture of reason vs. creativity has it closest, IMO the whole dichotomy thing plays in too, but that's a whole 'nother semester, so i'm gonna sidestep that issue (PM me or email me if you really wanna discuss/argue dichotomious power dynamics, the feminist movements, or other topics) but when you're confronted with a choice between "effective" characters or "engaging" characters, all too many players, especially new players, will go for the crunch i mean, why play a fighter who sees red, but gets no IG benefit, when you can just play a barb, get higher HD, actual benefits to rage, and the like heck, what happened to character names? i started play with a new game recently, and not until an hour into the first game did one of the players come up with a name for his char. but i digress... yes, there are creative people still around. you can meet a buncha them here (virtually)...check out the master DM comp's or Regdar's Repository...follow a couple of people's sig-links. you may be surprised at the depth some people can put into a char...but you may also be appalled at some of their shallownesses namaste, the hamster
The Listener 02-24-05, 11:46 PM	Wierd, I play tons of FPSs (I'm a huge fan of Halo) and I'm one of the least "hack and slasher" people I know! To me, I use video games to vent frustrations, and D&D/d20 Modern to share and make a good story with friends. I find D&D combat quite boring, especially if the DM doesn't use any description in combat.
Azual 02-25-05, 05:26 PM	From what orifice are you pulling this twaddle? Games with violent content do not "lessen your brain activity" and neither are they "bad for you". My absolute favourite games are the GTA series, I play them all the time and engage in many violent and deplorable acts within the game. In real life I have a high IQ, I work in a creative field, I write professionaly, I paint and enjoy art, music, and philosophy. I absolutely abhor violence and am law-abiding to a fault (I don't even jaywalk unless there is no other option). Violent games are not "bad for me" and have not "lessened my brain activity". Please people, stop trying to pass of opinion as fact. ...dude i cant se how being able to aim a plasma rifle at a corpse, seeing it explode, then finding that FUN is stimulating. :) I love Quake III, we play it in Programming all the time, however, it doesn't stimulate my mind in the least. Sulaco, the fact that you are an intellectual is not from playing FPS games. It comes from the fact that you have a high IQ, are in a creative field, etc. The simple fact that you play D&D contributes to the fact that you dont spend all your time pressing 'x' Its like me saying "Boxing is Barbaric that stimulates no brain activity" Then you saying "Well im a boxer, but im also a wine debutant and a collector of fine art." You may be a wonderfully cultured person in every way, but im saying that Boxing (or FPS's) didnt contribute to that. Reading, writing, chess, these are things that really get your mind flowing.
Azual 02-25-05, 05:30 PM	FPS games have actually been proved to increase your reflexes. And my experience with MMORPGs show that most people become min/maxing analphabetes when they play. Seriously, some of the most devoted MMORPGers I know have never written a coherent word (much less a sentence) in-game. dude, yoyu ever played Star Wars Galaxies It depends on which server you choose Bria (a Server) is famous for min-maxxers/campers/powergamers, but a server like Kettemoor actually Roleplays probably more then most D&D games. I had a character on both servers, and found that one had a history, a personality, a whole way of living differerent then mine in like a week. Yes, it wasnt on Bria. And last time i looked Reflexes werent required in D&D
Azual 02-25-05, 05:34 PM	I gotta agree with Sulaco. Not only is there no evidence, your differentiation defies logic. Why wouldn't FPS games involving killing be just as good at promoting thinking as MMORPGs? Heck, you often have less time to react, and have to plan faster in an FPS. Most MMORPGs I've tried have been a lot less stimulating than an FPS, I play them for A> roleplaying and B> something that keeps me entertained between new FPS type games. I've also had great fun with the GTA games. If you're gonna try and claim this stuff, try finding an actual, recent study, not funded by a group who wants video games, especially violent ones, to be banned. There's nothing about violent media that encourages violence. If that were true, books with violence would be just as bad as anything else. And I don't see anyone trying to ban books. Just from someone who has seen both types of people come to the D&D table, i can say that usually FPS players love to kill stuff. Kids who play chess, kids i know who play SWG, kids ive playedwith who actually knew what Stronghold was (and this is rare!) roleplayed alot more. Theres a reason why they call them STRATEGY Also, ive met people on SWG who were complete savants with no personality, you get both types, but ive never met a good FPS-playing roleplayer in my experience. Except mebbe you, i guess, Sulaco
Sulaco 02-25-05, 05:50 PM	...dude i cant se how being able to aim a plasma rifle at a corpse, seeing it explode, then finding that FUN is stimulating. :) I love Quake III, we play it in Programming all the time, however, it doesn't stimulate my mind in the least. Sulaco, the fact that you are an intellectual is not from playing FPS games. It comes from the fact that you have a high IQ, are in a creative field, etc. The simple fact that you play D&D contributes to the fact that you dont spend all your time pressing 'x' Its like me saying "Boxing is Barbaric that stimulates no brain activity" Then you saying "Well im a boxer, but im also a wine debutant and a collector of fine art." You may be a wonderfully cultured person in every way, but im saying that Boxing (or FPS's) didnt contribute to that. Reading, writing, chess, these are things that really get your mind flowing. Any interactive activity stimulates the brain. When playing an FPS you need to process a lot of information at a very rapid rate, thus stimulating the brain. You seem to be criticizing the effects based ont eh content and that just does not bear out. As to teh spurious boxing anaology, the reason it does not contribute to mental acuity is cos you are hit repeatedly in the head. If you take repeated blows to the head while playing an FPS I would suggest that the game itself is the least of your worries.
Sulaco 02-25-05, 05:58 PM	ive never met a good FPS-playing roleplayer in my experience. Which is fine, but assuming that the same holds true for every FPS-playing RPGer on the planet is total bunk. Making broad, seeping generalizations based on just your own personal experience is a very dangerous mindset IMO.
Callista 02-25-05, 06:32 PM	Why books are better than TV: It all depends on the fraction of the story you have to provide yourself. If you read a book, your imagination provides the picture, the sound, and the emotion; all you get fed to you is the bare facts. You can read something much faster than the time it would take to occur on TV, so you're getting more information per second, generally. If you're watching TV, you really don't get any of that: You've got the sound and the picture and the emotion right in front of you, fed to you. With books, you're originating a lot of the story yourself. These days, I often get bored watching movies or TV, because what I could "see" in my mind while reading a book is faster action, a more complete story, and just more information period, than anything TV could come up with. Frankly, television is a very limited medium when it comes to conveying information; and that means that not only will informational programs be rather shallow, but also that the stories it tells are rather bare of information. Video games are different: They're essentially like TV in that you get the picture and sound fed to you (this is with the exception of very old computer games or perhaps Rogue and its cousins); but you can change the story. How much imagination is required often depends on just how much you can change the story. For example, someone mentioned Baldur's Gate; and one of my friends is currently working through Neverwinter Nights: These are examples of games where you can change the story to a decent degree. First-person shooters, though, as well as most "strategy" games, are very limited in this respect: You either kill the enemy or die, simple as that. Of course, computers don't think like human beings; which means that video games, too, are limited when it comes to telling stories. No matter how complex the programming or numerous the options, there are things your character can't do, things s/he can't become. For example, with Neverwinter Nights: You can't form relationships with random townspeople... you can't leave your initials on a dungeon wall... you can't just completely ignore adventuring and just get drunk. There are any number of things that you can't do--and the number is greater than the number of things you *can* do. In D&D, your options are limited only by your character's capabilities. People who take their knowledge of fantasy from playing video games often don't understand that, because there are strategies that would work in D&D that video games can't support. In D&D, if you want to get rid of a tyrant overlord, you can rally the public, arm them, and go drive him out; or you can assassinate him in the dead of night; or you can ally with him; or you can ignore him completely and go plunder an ancient tomb you've heard about. In a video game, you're only going to do any of those things if one of the pre-determined plot branches has put that down as one of your options. And that's only for the reasonably complex plots. Some games--FPS's, for example--don't even give you plot choices to begin with. Thing is, video games train you to limit yourself to the same bounds that the programming of the game has. While you can think of strategies that might work, the computer doesn't comprehend them--so you don't use them. Eventually, you just reject those strategies out of hand. Books, on the other hand, inherently encourage creativity. Authors try each time they write about conflict to make the story new and different, the strategy original, the characters colorful (whether they succeed, however, is a different story!). Someone who reads a lot will be exposed to all sorts of strategies one could use, all sorts of characters to draw ideas from. Video games don't spoil anyone as a role-player... but anyone who draws their expectations of what D&D ought to be like from video games will inevitably be a poor role-player.
Azual 02-25-05, 06:44 PM	Any interactive activity stimulates the brain. When playing an FPS you need to process a lot of information at a very rapid rate, thus stimulating the brain. You seem to be criticizing the effects based ont eh content and that just does not bear out. As to teh spurious boxing anaology, the reason it does not contribute to mental acuity is cos you are hit repeatedly in the head. If you take repeated blows to the head while playing an FPS I would suggest that the game itself is the least of your worries. you are right, thought stimulation- yes (most of the time, killing hundreds of monsters is kind of monotonous) Roleplaying ability-no, you dont roleplay at all when you play an FPS
Callista 02-25-05, 06:59 PM	There's a difference between the sort of thinking that is required to win an FPS and the sort you need to role-play well, though. With FPS's, it's "Push this button, use this strategy, fast-fast-fast, or you die". I've yet to see any situation in D&D where that sort of training is useful.
Creeg 02-25-05, 07:22 PM	Want to take the Hack and Slashers out of your game? Take the dice out. Play 7 or 8 sessions without rolling a dice. Award XP to the players that get creative. I DMed about 40 sessions in a row where no dice were involved, we roleplayed out combats and such granted thius was 2nd edition but still. I know i had an exeptional groups filled with strong roleplayers and I don't expect the same out of any other group I run across. But if you run sever sessions where "I roll my Bluff check" gets a response of "Don't roll. What do you say?" and XP given out to the characters that handle that yo will either see a change or... you will know it is hopeless. Heck two sessions of that worked wonders with my new group... and it was our DM's (for that campaign) first time DMing, she just took the sugesstion from me and tried it.
simen_88 02-25-05, 07:28 PM	First-person shooters, though, as well as most "strategy" games, are very limited in this respect: You either kill the enemy or die, simple as that. True, although FPS games are much more detailed in how the battle is executed, when D&D is restricted to a die roll. And that's only for the reasonably complex plots. Some games--FPS's, for example--don't even give you plot choices to begin with. Nowadays, many FPS games have plots and storylines, and many of them demand intelligent play. Have you ever tried Deus Ex or Hitman? Video games don't spoil anyone as a role-player... but anyone who draws their expectations of what D&D ought to be like from video games will inevitably be a poor role-player. Nope, that person will just be surprised. I thought roleplaying was much like Baldur's Gate until I made a character and tried for myself.
simen_88 02-25-05, 07:33 PM	But if you run sever sessions where "I roll my Bluff check" gets a response of "Don't roll. What do you say?" and XP given out to the characters that handle that yo will either see a change or... you will know it is hopeless. Heck two sessions of that worked wonders with my new group... and it was our DM's (for that campaign) first time DMing, she just took the sugesstion from me and tried it. That sounds like a bad idea to me. I can't charm my way into a castle, but a bard with CHA 24, maxed out bluff and glibness cast on him can. This idea, taken to its logical extreme, would be to let the characters' attack rolls be determined be the players' strenght and combat experience.
Creeg 02-25-05, 07:40 PM	That sounds like a bad idea to me. I can't charm my way into a castle, but a bard with CHA 24, maxed out bluff and glibness cast on him can. This idea, taken to its logical extreme, would be to let the characters' attack rolls be determined be the players' strenght and combat experience. It is a bad idea for the long run, but I find it gets a point across to rollers. now for my old group it worked, will it ever work again for extended play ? I highly doubt it. We did all the time because we often gamed spurr of the moment while out to eat or at the beach or some other thing where we didn't have books, dice, or character sheets. We did indeed take it will past your extreme, however like I said it truely worked for us. I find in shorter periods it causes players to realize they have to think.
TiggerLilly 02-25-05, 09:30 PM	Video games dont suck the creativity out.. they rot the braincells that hold your creativity. :D But really.... its probably the dm cause i play videogames, watch tv, on the internet ya know all that and yet i was still able to come up with riding a pot across a floor strewn with caltrops :w00t: ... Creativity wikll never die unless it wasnt there in the first place!