Post/Author/DateTime	Post
LordMongoose 06-11-07, 03:04 AM	Right, this was pruned away as part of another thread, and I figured it funny enough to merit its own thread. One of the fellow gamers of my group posted the following on our forums. Warning - it's long. Elves. I hate elves. HATE Elves Okay, let's be fair here. Drow are cool, assuming they aren't stupid, tragic, loner cookie-cutter copies of Drizzt. And one main race of "high" elves is fine, as long as they have some depth and culture beyond "we're cool because we live forever and have pointy ears, and we pity the other races who don't, but we're still Chaotic Good even though we can openly racist." But if I see another sourcebook with another new elven subrace, tailor made to be mysterious, cool, and better at X than any non-elf PC race, I'm going to begin my long promised genocidal campaign against elves. I will start by raising a small army of Orcs, traditional enemies of elves. Then, I will have them attack a small village, far from civilization. This will inevitably attract a party of low-level adventurers, who will barge in, kill a few orcs, and (thinking the threat is over) will precede to loot the obvious and unguarded chest in the middle of the encampment filled with wearable, obviously magical items smeared with slow acting contact poison. As the adventurers writhe in agony hours after putting on the Magic Auraed items, I will claim their belongings for the clan and send their souls to Gruumsh, dark god of orcs and elf-hating, who will grant me the power to raise the adventurers poison-impregnated bodies as horrible, blasphemous zombies. I will repeat this, gaining the wealth and unholy services of dozens of adventurers. After a group of adventurers is smart enough not to put on the poisoned clothes and strong enough to kill the orcs, or at least strong enough to seriously hurt the warband, they will come upon me - wounded (or so it seems), manacled to the wall, and a prisoner of the orcs for days. Never thinking that I could be lying, they will take me with them back to town - and when they at night, halfway to town, I will take the first watch and slit their throats while they sleep. With their undead husks as my new minions and the remains of the orc tribe, I will take and send them away to a safe spot. I will return to the town, boast that I will kill the entire orc tribe my myself, and come back with as many heads as I can carry. The townsfolk will inevitably reward me, and to repay them I will throw a feast with my newfound wealth, complete with spiced mead for all and a heavy dose of poison for seasoning. Then, my undead slaves and the remaining orcs will enter the town and kill anyone that didn't drink the poison while I raise the bodies of the townsfolk as my minions. I will repeat this in as many towns as I need, working my way up to stronger and stronger adventurers with more expensive possessions. When a smart group finally realizes what's going on and confronts me, I will beg for mercy and reveal to them that I only did what I did to save my poor, dying mother and avenge the horrible, twisted wrongs elves committed on me. While they're debating the morality of killing me and before they realize what ******** just came out of my mouth, I will trigger the pit trap / antimagic field/ amazingly sharp spikes combination set up in my inner sanctum and kill them too. By that time it is no longer safe to continue with my present plan. I will then take my current army, put it in cold storage (i.e. bury it - orcs too, no need to have minions that can betray you when zombies never eat, sleep, or have treasonous thought), and join the church of Saint Cuthbert. Beforehand, I will give each of the major clerics a false vision (paying for any services I must buy - from an evil yet lazy and uncreative mage - with former adventurers' gold) that a man much like myself is actually the manifestation of Saint Cuthbert's avatar, come to the material plane in mortal guise to test the faithful and reward them with a great crusade against hidden evil. Naturally, the fools will believe it, and in a few short months I will rise to power in the Church (of course always hiding my alignment with magic, mental exercises, and giving money to orphans). I will then reveal my "true" nature in a blinding flash of light and propose a holy crusade against the vile elves! Yes, elves! With their pointy ears so much like demons' horns and their mysterious ways and their alien culture. They never fight except to defend themselves and for all their claims of goodness they harbor lazy, idle beings in their midst - and idle elves are the tools of devils! I will warn the Cuthbertites to beware false prophets from the gods of the elves and to strike down elves within the Church before sabotage the campaign. My deed done, I will teleport away to "be with St. Cuthbert" as the genocide begins. The Cuthbertites are thorough and will prepare before a holy war, possibly even gaining allies without thinking too much about their morality (Hextor might be interested). Meanwhile, I will take my treasure and send a magical projection to a dragon of moderate age - strong enough that she could kill me, but not so strong she could kill me and my undead horde. I will give this dragon, still young and ambitious, a gift of treasure and then propose a deal: help me raise an army and I will give you a chance to plunder an entire nation. She will inevitably betray me later, but by then I'll be ready. For now, she will agree (or I will find a dragon that will agree) and I will have my first dragon ally. That dragon will convince or bully several other, younger dragons into joining the cause and I will have about half a dozen dragons under my command, none of which will trust the others enough to gang up on me and kill me - and in the event they do I will have a teleportation spell ready at all times and never expose my wondrous, massive, and individually fragile horde of undead to the dragons and their breath weapons. While the dragons murder a few scattered elf villages, I will infiltrate elf society and engineer a war between two major elven nations. If there is only one mother nation from which all elves spring, I will engineer a civil war between the elves. An old slight between two groups of elves, or (even better) a row between the royal families, will be the fodder for a senseless war between two major elven population centers. The elves, being flighty and easily offended, will be goaded easily to fight. Even if their lackadaisical personalities and good alignment prevents actual war, there will be brawls here and there, a few scattered killings and assaults, and general unrest and distrust between the nations. Hopefully, they will gird themselves to fight other elves and ready their armies. Then, I will arrange to have the ruler of one nation assassinated and blame it squarely on the other nation. Not just the monarch will die, though - his immediate family and anything that stands in the way of the best magical yet elf-shaped killer the powers of a dragon and a dark god of elf-hating can create will die in creative, bloody, and horribly painful ways. The king's body will be destroyed by magic and his soul will be captured in a gem and teleported to me when the magical assassin returns, where I will sell it to a demon in exchange for a bit of demonic help in the coming slaughter. If a war hasn't started yet, it will, and if a blatant assassination isn't enough to start a war elves are so lazy I could just stab every elf in the face in broad daylight and no one would stop me. I have the elves fighting among themselves, a horde of undead (which I will fortify with the bodies of the elves in the settlements the dragons raze and enhance with dark magic), a few demons, a wing of dragons (if they are ever wiped out, perhaps by a wing of good dragons or a very well prepared group of adventurers, I can simply recruit more using the same tactics as before), and a crusade against the heathen tree-lovers brewing. Most people would begin the bloodbath now, but that wouldn't be enough. I want to be thorough. So I will invite the drow along to join the war. All I need to do is approach the leading matron (by magical projection - I have gone too far to spend the rest of my live enslaved by drow) and tell her that I'm going to attack the elves while the civil war rages. We will bond over our hatred of elves and love of evil and she will rally the drow that follow her to join in the greatest war against the hated, light-loving faeries - because nothing unites drow and squelches their petty squabbling like a chance to kill elves. I will then call out to Gruumsh, my patron, for help from his children. The orcs will flow to me in record numbers, brutal, stupid, and ready to kill. I will fortify them with magic and stolen adventurer goods and drill them until they are a lethal, ordered army nearly unable to disobey orders, even if it means their death. After I dispatch the adventurers that inevitably discover my plot (hint: by this time, my bodyguards are polymorphed dragons and I have enough magical items to outfit a small army, which I do) and raise them as zombies, it is almost time to begin. I will sacrifice the souls an entire village of elves to my dark god of hatred and prepare the ritual that will empower me with every filthy elven soul that is ripped from its body in glorious battle. I will delay the army of St. Cuthbert with a few well-placed detours (they worship a god of law and blind obedience, they'll follow road signs) so they arrive at dusk. Upon the setting of the sun, my dark glory will begin. The Cuthbertites will join the civil war on neither side, slaying men, women, and children without mercy. With the horrible sun gone the Drow will rise from the Underdark as the Orcs maraud into Elvish towns. My dark army of poisonous undead will only feed their ranks with elven, human, and Orcish dead as the war continues. The green of old forests will be red with fire and blood. Demons will pour forth to lead the charge, dragons will light the night sky with fire, and I will survey the battle from the top of the first dragon that followed me, his reward come at last. As the battle rages on, some of my undead horde - those with rudimentary intelligence yet physically incapable of disobeying - will gather all the elves' enchanted crafts in the middle of a massive ritual circle made from the stinking corpses of dead elves, painted with runes of blood. With each elven death a soul will flow unto me and give me power to control ever more minions and cast even more horrible spells on the battlefield. The trees will fall to ash and the ground will be torn asunder as the slaughter continues. Then the sun will rise, and the horrible true nature of my plan will become obvious. The drow and orcs, exhausted from battle, will recoil from the horrible, burning dawn - but they will be so far into elven lands they cannot escape from the light into the Underdark or their warrens. They will be crushed beneath the hammers of the Cuthbertites and the claws my undead - then the stupid worshippers of a stupider god with die in dragonflame. Each death will empower me due to the boon Gruumsh granted me - and speaking of Gruumsh, even he will realize my betrayal when the worshippers die in their moment of triumph over the elves. It matter not. Each death makes me stronger, and each orc that dies makes Gruumsh weaker. He won't have the power to stop me, nor will anyone once my plan is finished. The dragons will finish off the few survivors. The demons will return to the abyss when the spells that bind them here expire. The elves, Cuthbertites, drow, and orcs are dead, and my army of undead, under my control only by virtue of the souls I have absorbed, is bloated with new recruits. Then I will release control of the undead. The entire army will be berserk. Many will crumble to dust when I let go of my magic, but some will rampage throughout the countryside. Not my problem. I have kept my true power hidden, especially from my patron Gruumsh, by keeping such a huge horde of minions. No longer. I expect to have the power of at least a demigod- more, once I absorb the magic from the enchanted weapons and crafts of an entire species in a ritual fueled with elven flesh and bones. I will take that power and travel to Avrandor and visit Corellon Larethian, who by this time is as weak as a pointy-eared infant from the loss of all his worshippers. I will kill him with my bare hands and absorb his remaining power and the non-elf parts of his portfolio. I will do the same for the rest of the Seldarine, and then raise them as horrible, undead abominations fully under my control. By this point, Gruumsh is worried - as he should be. On my way to the Abyss I will swing by his home, kill the weakened fool, and absorb his portfolio as well. The battle will be hard, but I will be far more powerful than he and it will be trivial to destroy his Orcish minions and resurrect them into twisted mockeries of life. Afterwards, I will visit the weakened Lolth and explain my entire plan in great detail. After she bows before the true master of treachery, thus surrendering that part of her portfolio to a more worthy deity, I will kill her and any other elven gods, which are by now so weak they cannot stop me. I will ascend to greater godhood, a god of death, betrayal, and triumph. With the powers of a god I will use my undead servants to hunt down every last remaining being of more than half elven blood and kill them. Then, I will gather the undead elven gods before me. One by one, I will release them from their bondage and condemn them to the oblivion. I will release Corellon Larethian last, but not before basking in the beautiful irony of it all. As he was the first elf and that hated race's creator, so is he last to truly die, broken, beaten, and enslaved.
Potato_Dragon 06-11-07, 04:17 AM	Oh, yeah. Elves are a long-lived, slow-breeding race. They should evolve much slower than pretty much anything other than dragons. And yet, there are like 56.3 elven subraces, each with their own mechanical differences - even human subraces don't get that! OMG WTF BBQ!!! They is like eaten mah brain!!! Killzorz dem all!!!!!!! No, seriously now. I always figured that elves were a highly magical race, with a connection to the land they live on. If they set down roots in a completely different environment for a few generations, then their great-grandchildren will start picking up new traits from absorbing traces of the land's nature into their being. But that might be just me.
KillerGM 06-11-07, 05:07 AM	The funniest thing about that rant: Drow are cool :rolleyes:
ishpu 06-11-07, 05:18 AM	so are you a kinslayer from the drow of the underdark?
Sudnji_cas 06-11-07, 07:47 AM	I love you man whoever you are.:D
SephDragoon 06-11-07, 10:21 AM	There are three kinds of elves that can live...wild elves (or wood elves... wtf, they are different?), drow (because hey make interesting badguys, and I am a fan of Jaraxle's work), and the Blood Elves (for those who play WoW). All other must die. This is for the good of mankind. The elves have more subraces than all oter races combined. It is called thinning the herd people.
Shiftkitty 06-11-07, 11:09 AM	I view the subraces of elves more as cultural differences and minor biological differences based on the environment the tribe has lived in. If you vivsect a sample from each one, they'll look the same on the inside*. Magical attunements for particular powers are based on cultural emphasis, not any biological bent. A sun elf raised by moon-elves would have the cultural traits and magical attunements of a moon elf while bearing the physical characteristics of a sun elf. Based on breeding for particular characteristics, some elves, such as the drow, are going to have certain tendencies due to brain chemistry and other such factors, but all in all, an elf is an elf is an elf. Besides the listed subraces, we have elves from desert environments, arctic environments, non-drow subterranean elves, etc. I was heavily inspired by Wendy and Richard Pini's "Elfquest". I really didn't care for elves, except for the elves in Ralph Bakshi's "Wizards", until "Elfquest". I thought their attention to culture and anthropology was a good element in the story. *Of course, the drow may offer you good money to let him vivisect the others before you vivisect him, but don't do it. As soon as you put the scalpel in his hand, you're toast.
darkneolink 06-11-07, 12:36 PM	yeah I really like that... I have it on my sig n_n your buddy is my hero n_n I mean we don't need so many elves subraces
CryoSilver 06-11-07, 01:05 PM	I just pretend the subraces don't exist. In Iliga, there is one kind of elf: the kind in the PHB.
LordMongoose 06-11-07, 01:33 PM	I just pretend the subraces don't exist. In Iliga, there is one kind of elf: the kind in the PHB. That's how I roll in my campaigns. In hindsight, this thread should have gone in the Races subforum, but meh.
CryoSilver 06-11-07, 01:40 PM	I mean, IMC, there are aquatic elves. They just drown after a few hours of treading water is all... There are also wood elves; they've been targeted by a Flesh to Wood spell. Wild elves? Sure. They tend to get eaten by bears, though. Dark-skinned elves? Well, if you leave them in the oven too long, they go from golden brown to black...
GoriceXII 06-11-07, 03:36 PM	My homebrew originally years ago was about a war between elves and humans. I have tried to keep them in my game as more fae than humans that seem oddly chaotic and serene with funny ears and longevity. So that they are genuinely capricious and dangerous at times, that the environment they live in can be by turns dangerously intoxicating or downright plain dangerous. In my game they're NOT human and even when they hang out with humans there's something weird about them. I also changed the Drow entirely for my game purposes. The Drow in my game are actually a conspiracy of elves that want elvish supremacy that were exiled. They looked rather like other elves do but are somewhat paler and they have more innate magic because they are less inclined to just fade away and let humanity take over the world.
OWN 06-12-07, 03:31 AM	Right, this was pruned away as part of another thread, and I figured it funny enough to merit its own thread. One of the fellow gamers of my group posted the following on our forums. Warning - it's long. Elves. I hate elves. HATE Elves Okay, let's be fair here. Drow are cool, assuming they aren't stupid, tragic, loner cookie-cutter copies of Drizzt. And one main race of "high" elves is fine, as long as they have some depth and culture beyond "we're cool because we live forever and have pointy ears, and we pity the other races who don't, but we're still Chaotic Good even though we can openly racist." But if I see another sourcebook with another new elven subrace, tailor made to be mysterious, cool, and better at X than any non-elf PC race, I'm going to begin my long promised genocidal campaign against elves. I will start by raising a small army of Orcs, traditional enemies of elves. Then, I will have them attack a small village, far from civilization. This will inevitably attract a party of low-level adventurers, who will barge in, kill a few orcs, and (thinking the threat is over) will precede to loot the obvious and unguarded chest in the middle of the encampment filled with wearable, obviously magical items smeared with slow acting contact poison. As the adventurers writhe in agony hours after putting on the Magic Auraed items, I will claim their belongings for the clan and send their souls to Gruumsh, dark god of orcs and elf-hating, who will grant me the power to raise the adventurers poison-impregnated bodies as horrible, blasphemous zombies. I will repeat this, gaining the wealth and unholy services of dozens of adventurers. After a group of adventurers is smart enough not to put on the poisoned clothes and strong enough to kill the orcs, or at least strong enough to seriously hurt the warband, they will come upon me - wounded (or so it seems), manacled to the wall, and a prisoner of the orcs for days. Never thinking that I could be lying, they will take me with them back to town - and when they at night, halfway to town, I will take the first watch and slit their throats while they sleep. With their undead husks as my new minions and the remains of the orc tribe, I will take and send them away to a safe spot. I will return to the town, boast that I will kill the entire orc tribe my myself, and come back with as many heads as I can carry. The townsfolk will inevitably reward me, and to repay them I will throw a feast with my newfound wealth, complete with spiced mead for all and a heavy dose of poison for seasoning. Then, my undead slaves and the remaining orcs will enter the town and kill anyone that didn't drink the poison while I raise the bodies of the townsfolk as my minions. I will repeat this in as many towns as I need, working my way up to stronger and stronger adventurers with more expensive possessions. When a smart group finally realizes what's going on and confronts me, I will beg for mercy and reveal to them that I only did what I did to save my poor, dying mother and avenge the horrible, twisted wrongs elves committed on me. While they're debating the morality of killing me and before they realize what ******** just came out of my mouth, I will trigger the pit trap / antimagic field/ amazingly sharp spikes combination set up in my inner sanctum and kill them too. By that time it is no longer safe to continue with my present plan. I will then take my current army, put it in cold storage (i.e. bury it - orcs too, no need to have minions that can betray you when zombies never eat, sleep, or have treasonous thought), and join the church of Saint Cuthbert. Beforehand, I will give each of the major clerics a false vision (paying for any services I must buy - from an evil yet lazy and uncreative mage - with former adventurers' gold) that a man much like myself is actually the manifestation of Saint Cuthbert's avatar, come to the material plane in mortal guise to test the faithful and reward them with a great crusade against hidden evil. Naturally, the fools will believe it, and in a few short months I will rise to power in the Church (of course always hiding my alignment with magic, mental exercises, and giving money to orphans). I will then reveal my "true" nature in a blinding flash of light and propose a holy crusade against the vile elves! Yes, elves! With their pointy ears so much like demons' horns and their mysterious ways and their alien culture. They never fight except to defend themselves and for all their claims of goodness they harbor lazy, idle beings in their midst - and idle elves are the tools of devils! I will warn the Cuthbertites to beware false prophets from the gods of the elves and to strike down elves within the Church before sabotage the campaign. My deed done, I will teleport away to "be with St. Cuthbert" as the genocide begins. The Cuthbertites are thorough and will prepare before a holy war, possibly even gaining allies without thinking too much about their morality (Hextor might be interested). Meanwhile, I will take my treasure and send a magical projection to a dragon of moderate age - strong enough that she could kill me, but not so strong she could kill me and my undead horde. I will give this dragon, still young and ambitious, a gift of treasure and then propose a deal: help me raise an army and I will give you a chance to plunder an entire nation. She will inevitably betray me later, but by then I'll be ready. For now, she will agree (or I will find a dragon that will agree) and I will have my first dragon ally. That dragon will convince or bully several other, younger dragons into joining the cause and I will have about half a dozen dragons under my command, none of which will trust the others enough to gang up on me and kill me - and in the event they do I will have a teleportation spell ready at all times and never expose my wondrous, massive, and individually fragile horde of undead to the dragons and their breath weapons. While the dragons murder a few scattered elf villages, I will infiltrate elf society and engineer a war between two major elven nations. If there is only one mother nation from which all elves spring, I will engineer a civil war between the elves. An old slight between two groups of elves, or (even better) a row between the royal families, will be the fodder for a senseless war between two major elven population centers. The elves, being flighty and easily offended, will be goaded easily to fight. Even if their lackadaisical personalities and good alignment prevents actual war, there will be brawls here and there, a few scattered killings and assaults, and general unrest and distrust between the nations. Hopefully, they will gird themselves to fight other elves and ready their armies. Then, I will arrange to have the ruler of one nation assassinated and blame it squarely on the other nation. Not just the monarch will die, though - his immediate family and anything that stands in the way of the best magical yet elf-shaped killer the powers of a dragon and a dark god of elf-hating can create will die in creative, bloody, and horribly painful ways. The king's body will be destroyed by magic and his soul will be captured in a gem and teleported to me when the magical assassin returns, where I will sell it to a demon in exchange for a bit of demonic help in the coming slaughter. If a war hasn't started yet, it will, and if a blatant assassination isn't enough to start a war elves are so lazy I could just stab every elf in the face in broad daylight and no one would stop me. I have the elves fighting among themselves, a horde of undead (which I will fortify with the bodies of the elves in the settlements the dragons raze and enhance with dark magic), a few demons, a wing of dragons (if they are ever wiped out, perhaps by a wing of good dragons or a very well prepared group of adventurers, I can simply recruit more using the same tactics as before), and a crusade against the heathen tree-lovers brewing. Most people would begin the bloodbath now, but that wouldn't be enough. I want to be thorough. So I will invite the drow along to join the war. All I need to do is approach the leading matron (by magical projection - I have gone too far to spend the rest of my live enslaved by drow) and tell her that I'm going to attack the elves while the civil war rages. We will bond over our hatred of elves and love of evil and she will rally the drow that follow her to join in the greatest war against the hated, light-loving faeries - because nothing unites drow and squelches their petty squabbling like a chance to kill elves. I will then call out to Gruumsh, my patron, for help from his children. The orcs will flow to me in record numbers, brutal, stupid, and ready to kill. I will fortify them with magic and stolen adventurer goods and drill them until they are a lethal, ordered army nearly unable to disobey orders, even if it means their death. After I dispatch the adventurers that inevitably discover my plot (hint: by this time, my bodyguards are polymorphed dragons and I have enough magical items to outfit a small army, which I do) and raise them as zombies, it is almost time to begin. I will sacrifice the souls an entire village of elves to my dark god of hatred and prepare the ritual that will empower me with every filthy elven soul that is ripped from its body in glorious battle. I will delay the army of St. Cuthbert with a few well-placed detours (they worship a god of law and blind obedience, they'll follow road signs) so they arrive at dusk. Upon the setting of the sun, my dark glory will begin. The Cuthbertites will join the civil war on neither side, slaying men, women, and children without mercy. With the horrible sun gone the Drow will rise from the Underdark as the Orcs maraud into Elvish towns. My dark army of poisonous undead will only feed their ranks with elven, human, and Orcish dead as the war continues. The green of old forests will be red with fire and blood. Demons will pour forth to lead the charge, dragons will light the night sky with fire, and I will survey the battle from the top of the first dragon that followed me, his reward come at last. As the battle rages on, some of my undead horde - those with rudimentary intelligence yet physically incapable of disobeying - will gather all the elves' enchanted crafts in the middle of a massive ritual circle made from the stinking corpses of dead elves, painted with runes of blood. With each elven death a soul will flow unto me and give me power to control ever more minions and cast even more horrible spells on the battlefield. The trees will fall to ash and the ground will be torn asunder as the slaughter continues. Then the sun will rise, and the horrible true nature of my plan will become obvious. The drow and orcs, exhausted from battle, will recoil from the horrible, burning dawn - but they will be so far into elven lands they cannot escape from the light into the Underdark or their warrens. They will be crushed beneath the hammers of the Cuthbertites and the claws my undead - then the stupid worshippers of a stupider god with die in dragonflame. Each death will empower me due to the boon Gruumsh granted me - and speaking of Gruumsh, even he will realize my betrayal when the worshippers die in their moment of triumph over the elves. It matter not. Each death makes me stronger, and each orc that dies makes Gruumsh weaker. He won't have the power to stop me, nor will anyone once my plan is finished. The dragons will finish off the few survivors. The demons will return to the abyss when the spells that bind them here expire. The elves, Cuthbertites, drow, and orcs are dead, and my army of undead, under my control only by virtue of the souls I have absorbed, is bloated with new recruits. Then I will release control of the undead. The entire army will be berserk. Many will crumble to dust when I let go of my magic, but some will rampage throughout the countryside. Not my problem. I have kept my true power hidden, especially from my patron Gruumsh, by keeping such a huge horde of minions. No longer. I expect to have the power of at least a demigod- more, once I absorb the magic from the enchanted weapons and crafts of an entire species in a ritual fueled with elven flesh and bones. I will take that power and travel to Avrandor and visit Corellon Larethian, who by this time is as weak as a pointy-eared infant from the loss of all his worshippers. I will kill him with my bare hands and absorb his remaining power and the non-elf parts of his portfolio. I will do the same for the rest of the Seldarine, and then raise them as horrible, undead abominations fully under my control. By this point, Gruumsh is worried - as he should be. On my way to the Abyss I will swing by his home, kill the weakened fool, and absorb his portfolio as well. The battle will be hard, but I will be far more powerful than he and it will be trivial to destroy his Orcish minions and resurrect them into twisted mockeries of life. Afterwards, I will visit the weakened Lolth and explain my entire plan in great detail. After she bows before the true master of treachery, thus surrendering that part of her portfolio to a more worthy deity, I will kill her and any other elven gods, which are by now so weak they cannot stop me. I will ascend to greater godhood, a god of death, betrayal, and triumph. With the powers of a god I will use my undead servants to hunt down every last remaining being of more than half elven blood and kill them. Then, I will gather the undead elven gods before me. One by one, I will release them from their bondage and condemn them to the oblivion. I will release Corellon Larethian last, but not before basking in the beautiful irony of it all. As he was the first elf and that hated race's creator, so is he last to truly die, broken, beaten, and enslaved. Tell your fellow gamer that he has made an old dice roller smile. Oh, and that he's awesome.
Duncs 06-12-07, 05:58 PM	I humbly put myself forward as a warrior of this crusade. The elves have far too much attention given to them, and are to be reviled and hated. *salute*
Solik 06-12-07, 06:07 PM	Two reasons for the plethora of elf subraces: 1. It's politically incorrect to do this with humans. Extremely politically incorrect. Elves are popular and similar to humans, so they get the treatment instead. 2. There is a need for more mechanically diverse race options (particularly in terms of stat adjustments) for some gamers (myself included), and it's much easier to just throw in extra subraces than to add entirely new races to every game world.
KillerVole 06-12-07, 11:09 PM	Great post. Has he, by any chance, read the evil overlord list? In my longest running campaign, elves are sniveling bureaucrats, who are the minions of a great evil power. The PCs are leading a massive rebellion against them. They might like your plan...
darkdragonk 06-12-07, 11:30 PM	I Darkdragon K, salute you and your holy crusade against those vile, over glorified, pointey eared basterds. DEATH TO THE POINTY EARED ONES (and half-elves too, got to keep the gean pool clean you know)
Shiftkitty 06-13-07, 01:28 AM	Is your chapter headed by Dr. McCoy? Does Mr. Spock know about this? ;)
tahngarth40 06-13-07, 02:31 AM	More dwarven subraces as far as I'm concerned Ones w/out LAs preferably.
LordMongoose 06-17-07, 01:14 AM	A hearty thank you to all the well-wishers and supporters. I'll pass along the compliments to my friend. @tahngarth: Agreed. Dwarves are cool. But the great source of all awesome? Kobolds. Also, mongooses. WTB ANTHROPOMORPHIC MONGEESE AS WOTC SUPPORTED PLAYER RACE PLZ/THX.
Joseph_Silver 06-17-07, 01:31 AM	You should write an article called, "The Final Solution to the Elvish Problem". Oh wait, someone did that already. :devil:
Duncs 06-17-07, 10:45 AM	But the great source of all awesome? Kobolds. Yes. Agreed.
The_Grand_Artificer 06-17-07, 12:20 PM	A truily sadistic Dm might allow yon hater of the keebs and allow hm to begin his plan. DM: "Ok, the adventurers enter the room. One is a 4 foot tall lump of mobile stone, one is a fendish looking woman with horns and wings jutting out of her black leather armour, one is a whisp of darkness roiling along the wall and the last is a dark elf with a strange glittering ring with serpents on it." Player: "d'oh!"
LordMongoose 06-18-07, 01:01 AM	A truily sadistic Dm might allow yon hater of the keebs and allow hm to begin his plan. DM: "Ok, the adventurers enter the room. One is a 4 foot tall lump of mobile stone, one is a fendish looking woman with horns and wings jutting out of her black leather armour, one is a whisp of darkness roiling along the wall and the last is a dark elf with a strange glittering ring with serpents on it." Player: "d'oh!" You are such a Debbie Downer. I'd link the Perry Bible Fellowship strip with Fun Bot in it, but the site seems to be down. ALL YOUR FAULT.
CryoSilver 06-18-07, 07:51 AM	1. It's politically incorrect to do this with humans. Extremely politically incorrect. Elves are popular and similar to humans, so they get the treatment instead. Well, sort of. If you try to assign modifiers to the real world races, then yes, it is. But in the real world, there aren't "aquatic humans," or an analogue to drow or any of the other things like that. In fact, it's arguable that aasimar, tieflings and gensai are "human subraces," as are kalashtar. Not canon (except in the case of kalashtar, who are specifically stated as formerly having been human), but certainly arugable. Base humans are also easy enough to customize to fit a racial profile without modification, if that's what you want to do. The extra skill points can be used to raise a skill in the same way as most other races' racial modifier, and the feat can be used to add almost any flavor, considering the plethora of feat options nowadays.
Erato 06-18-07, 08:06 AM	The elves have more subraces than all oter races combined. No There's a complete list of all races and subraces around here somewhere. Look it up, and discover how many dwarf subraces there is, compared to elves. How am I suposed to support a case, if the people trying to present it doesn't even bother to check the facts, or are outright lying :confused:
key 07-16-07, 01:35 AM	But if I see another sourcebook with another new elven subrace, tailor made to be mysterious, cool, and better at X than any non-elf PC race, I'm going to begin my long promised genocidal campaign against elves. What they need is a sourcebook on existing elf subraces. TSR gave elves their own book and detailed each subrace. Wizards details zero subraces and lumps them together with halflings and raptorans. Quality stuff.
Shiftkitty 07-16-07, 10:29 AM	What they need is a sourcebook on existing elf subraces. TSR gave elves their own book and detailed each subrace. Wizards details zero subraces and lumps them together with halflings and raptorans. Quality stuff. And then everybody would gripe about WotC coming out with yet more supplemental material, pouting about fluff, etc. I have no problem with elven subraces. Bring 'em on! I'll take what I like and throw the rest out.
Enderlaand 07-16-07, 04:36 PM	I don't like subraces that just seem designed to min/max. For example, an elven subrace that give a bonus to cha, to make a better sorcerer. I also hate fluff that is really unneccesary. Wild Elves and Wood Elves. What's the difference? Really. I can handle subraces most of the time, but they have to be justified, and you have to have a reason for them in your campaign. I'm not a fan of Forgotten Realms, just because of the subraces. There doesn't need to be a subrace that lives in the Underdark for every race that lives aboveground. There doesn't need to be a 'dark' version of every race. It just gets out of control sometimes. For example, I can handle the elves in Dragonlance, because the differences are explained better, and there are really only 3 kinds of elves. That's about my maximum for a given setting.
Feredenil 07-16-07, 07:09 PM	My first character is a high Elf and my favorite too. Yet, this deep-dark-hatefilled plan of his looks so AMAZING. I can only dare to imagine how much energy and loathing this person put into that, to make it so vile. My character would die to meet this challenge. (though I'm sure not literally, for reasons of my own) ... As for the actual subject, I agree. If elves were ever ment to be 'special', mysterious and fascinating, all these subraces create the exact opposite. As a DM, I have presented Elves as npcs less than 5 times totally. And I've been DMing for quite a while now.
Lawlicron 07-16-07, 07:19 PM	I for one, hate elves. I only hate them because of their many subraces and their supposed flavor of being "not as adaptable as humans". I'll still hate elves, because they have so many stupid subraces, but we should just start calling them the most adaptable race in the game, given their umpteen subraces.
Shiftkitty 07-16-07, 08:55 PM	Wood Elves and Wild Elves need not be the same thing. A Wild Elf is more feral than his Wood Elf cousin, whom you could take to a nice restaurant. In my campaign a Wild Elf might live in a desert, an arctic tundra, a jungle, or whatever natural setting might be handy. The necessities of survival dictate cultural mores, so the subraces I use, while not true "races" are significantly different from one another. But I suppose that the subraces are one way the game accounts for the different legends of elves in the RW. Some cultures have elves as much shorter than humans, and sometimes stockier, while others describe them as taller. Elf, fairy, pixie and dwarf have been used interchangeably, although "dwarf" only rarely, and skin color varies from legend to legend, as well as bent toward malevolence or benevolence, even when referring to the drow of Ireland. I love studying folklore and superstitions (leaving a saucer of milk out for kobolds so they'll come and clean your house? Not in my campaign!), and when I get bored, I poke around old books and try to see what has carried over from ancient legends into D&D. For me, these subraces make sense, even if some of them shouldn't really be called races.
Solik 07-16-07, 09:02 PM	That's an interesting way to put it, Shiftkitty. I mean, when you think about it, many elven "subraces" are as different from each other as they are from humans. However, all of them -- including humans -- can interbreed. In which case all elves could be considered subraces of humans. Or, humans could be a subrace of elves. Prairie Elves, perhaps :D
Shiftkitty 07-16-07, 09:09 PM	I just got this image of a hole in the ground and an elf head poking up, yipping a little bit, then popping back down. Argh! Prarie Dogs and Prarie Elves!
Manyfist 07-16-07, 09:41 PM	I hate Elves... too many sub races (as with Dwarves). Lets see: High Wood Grey Wild Dark Umbral (Shadow Elves) Sun Moon Psionic Aquatic Fire Arctic Snow Desert Jungle Fire Half Star Einherjar (Valenar) (Aerenal) So many Elves... Why is it that everything must have at least one elf in it? For all this Humans have adopted to many the environments without need to change their stats. Theres an old saying, if you create a new plane, chances are the first living things on that plane would be Bacteria, and Elves.
Erato 07-16-07, 10:06 PM	I hate elf subrace-haters and Drizzt-haters... They take up so much space on the boards :( Seriously, WotC have published underground and elemental variants of practically all races. And as said before (even by me in another thread) there are so many different qualities to elves. I belive I once called them "civilised and nature loving facist do-gooders". In order to give every player a chance to play an elf with the qualities he likes about them, you can either give them enough abilities to warrant a LA, or you can make sub-races. Considering that I've never heard of dwarves that didn't fit a much narrowed stereotype, the amount of dwarven sub-races are overwhelming. Ps. I actually think many of the sub-races are superfluous, but I don't like the hysteria of people hating them.
Lawlicron 07-16-07, 11:10 PM	Seriously, WotC have published underground and elemental variants of practically all races. Humans?
Manyfist 07-17-07, 07:07 AM	Humans? Underfolk (underground) Aventai (Water) Aquatic Human Sea Kin Air, Fire, Water, Earth Gensai (even if they are half human). Neanderthal Skulk Aasimir Tiefling Deep Imaskari I think thats all the elemental/underground. With the exception of the Gensais and the Plane touched they're all Human blooded.
Erato 07-17-07, 09:54 AM	Humans? Practically all races. There are aquatic, artic, desert, and jungle versions of all other core races, plus orcs, goblins, and kobolds, in UA. And names of elven sub-races are often changed in campaign settings. The Moon elf and High elf that Manyfist mentioned, for instance, are identical exept for the name.
Shiftkitty 07-17-07, 10:28 AM	I think it also has to do with how a DM or PC plays the type. If you play all of your elves alike, then they are alike. PLay them differently and they are different. Some of the ways I play elves in my campaign are: Drow: Going to Hell in a rocket-propelled handbasket and enjoying the ride. They even dropped a brick on the gas pedal and took the steering wheel off. High: They believe that they are the "true" elves and regard other elven races as degenerate to varying degrees. A little snooty, because it's a good substitute for hatred. Wood: Guardians of nature, opposition to the encroaching cities, but not militant tree-huggers. Sun: The flaming liberals of the elven world, they're actually just very tolerant of others, especially the unpredictable humans, in whom they see great potential. It doesn't follow the standard descriptions provided in the books, but they are the general traits I developed back when Elf was a character class. Because of the environments, social and otherwise, that foster these general attitudes, they developed in different ways. CHA is important to the drow since force of personality can often make or break an encounter in their society. It's also important to the Sun elves, as is WIS for their dealings with other races. INT is foremost for the High elves as they try to justify their general arrogance and high-handedness. Skills and whatnot are likewise subject to varying emphasis depending on environment. For me, this makes the sub-types distinct enough to have their own listings.
Rogue Shadows 07-17-07, 10:42 AM	I think there are nearly as many dwarf subraces, and that the half-assed new races like Raptorans far outnumber elves. So I can't understand the elf thing.
Lawlicron 07-17-07, 03:11 PM	Underfolk (underground) Aventai (Water) Aquatic Human Sea Kin Air, Fire, Water, Earth Gensai (even if they are half human). Neanderthal Skulk Aasimir Tiefling Deep Imaskari I think thats all the elemental/underground. With the exception of the Gensais and the Plane touched they're all Human blooded. Difference with humans and elves here is that it goes like this: Aasimir: Human with strong celestial bloodline Wood elf: Elf with ties to nature. The ones that are elves, are blatantly called elves. I don't like the count the Aquatic Human, because aquatic is just a template now. Mostly with humans their subraces come only from their ability to breed true with everything else under the sun. Humans have subraces based on bloodlines. Elves have subraces based on adapting to their new environments. Now you might wonder why the most unadaptable race has adapted to all kinds of new environments. But the fix is already good enough, just say that elves are the most adaptable race in the world.
myusernameis 07-17-07, 03:14 PM	(Valenar) (Aerenal)For the purpose of this discussion, those shouldn't count as subraces, they're culturally different from standard elves, not statistically and biological differences are minimal. Otherwise I can dig up a few history books and start pointing out human "subraces" with the same level of validity.
Lawlicron 07-17-07, 03:23 PM	For the purpose of this discussion, those shouldn't count as subraces, they're culturally different from standard elves, not statistically and biological differences are minimal. Otherwise I can dig up a few history books and start pointing out human "subraces" with the same level of validity. Yeah I definitely agree there. I think this is how all elves should be. Just culturally different, Wood Elves are elves but they favor the physical stats and have connection to nature. Gray elves are just elves but they favor intelligence and are super stuck up. Even high elves are just elves but they are more generalist and still stuck up.
Shiftkitty 07-17-07, 03:36 PM	So the problem here is not with the "subraces" themselves. It's the title "subrace". So just cross off "subrace" in the book and write in "cultures". If you get a chance, read the original Elfquest series. After the forest-dwelling, nocturnal Wolfriders and the desert dwelling, diurnal Sunfolk finally start talking instead of raiding/hiding, the healer, Leetah, asks the Wolfriders "Can you not see that we are all of one face?" Just the cultural exchange between these two tribes was wonderfully written, and then the story threw in the Gliders and the Gobacks as two other cultures of elves. In later stories, the Wolfriders' pack was getting too big, so they split off. The branch that left wound up on the plains. The slow transition from a forest culture, where stealth and silence were key to survival in a dark, cool, canopied world, to a nomadic culture underneath the wide open skies, was just starting to gel when I lost touch with the series. When I'm depicting an elven tribe, I keep Elfquest in mind to avoid generic elves. Even two tribes of wood elves can be as different as night and day if they've never had contact with each other.
Count Nerindil Van Seraph 07-17-07, 03:41 PM	Death to Elven subraces, eh? Better not let the Blade Elves (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=12563591#post12563591) hear you say that. They don't **** around.
Lina_Inverse 07-17-07, 03:41 PM	So the problem here is not with the "subraces" themselves. It's the title "subrace". So just cross off "subrace" in the book and write in "cultures". Culture doesn't change stats. Culture doesn't grant inborn magical abilities. Culture also don't change your appearance. Culture most assuredly don't give you wings. More than that, wheres my human cultures. Humans are pretty multi-cultural and what makes us human don't change one whit with new cultures.
Lawlicron 07-17-07, 03:42 PM	Culture doesn't change stats. Culture doesn't grant inborn magical abilities. Culture also don't change your appearance. Culture most assuredly don't give you wings. Ahem!
Lawlicron 07-17-07, 03:43 PM	Death to Elven subraces, eh? Better not let the Blade Elves (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=12563591#post12563591) hear you say that. They don't **** around. What a shameless, shameless plug.
Count Nerindil Van Seraph 07-17-07, 03:48 PM	What a shameless, shameless plug. You'll hear no argument from me. :D
myusernameis 07-17-07, 03:48 PM	Culture doesn't change stats.Agree with everything except this: culture can change developement of a person during their aging process, thus facilitating stats, though I think that would just be a matter of "most grey elves put higher scores on intelligence" not "all grey elves get +2 intelligence".
Shiftkitty 07-17-07, 03:59 PM	Culture doesn't change stats. Culture doesn't grant inborn magical abilities. Culture also don't change your appearance. Culture most assuredly don't give you wings. Culture can influence who gets to mate and how often. In a tribe where certain attributes are highly prized, they are sought after by potential mates. Genetics can be passed on through cultural tastes. A culture that values tall, handsome people will tend to gravitate that way for mates, thus perpetuating the genetic trend. Anyone not tall and handsome is going to have a hard time getting laid, and will most likely move on to where a mate is easier for them to come by. The same could apply for certain magical traits. Wings would definitely classify as a subrace feature, though.
Manyfist 07-17-07, 05:29 PM	For the purpose of this discussion, those shouldn't count as subraces, they're culturally different from standard elves, not statistically and biological differences are minimal. Otherwise I can dig up a few history books and start pointing out human "subraces" with the same level of validity. Which is why I put them in () since you can count them as a subrace and you can't call them a subrace at the same time.
Solik 07-17-07, 09:22 PM	Elves aren't more "adaptable" than humans because they go to all sorts of different environments and generate themselves a new subrace for it. Rather, they're more affected by the local environment. Yes, it's true that if you use genetics, then it means they have lots of beneficial mutations or tons of dormant traits, thus adaptability, but we're talking fantasy here, and a race normally linked to nature and mysticism to boot. I doubt campaign world creators will point first to DNA being the cause of elven subraces. Humans can move into a new environment and generally flourish within the same generation, barring exceptionally harsh conditions. I bet elves would have a lot more trouble doing that, but once they did get rooted to this new environment, they'd outperform other races within it. More proof for humans being Prairie Elves :D Haters of subraces may find it useful to come up with a racial mechanic or two that tweaks the properties of any given elf. That way, you could derive subraces from the standard race if you want just by using their racial ability. Presto, one elf, all varieties.
Dashel_Illioni 07-17-07, 11:36 PM	Thanks to your friend. While the elf character i am playing will not go so far as to wipe out the entire elven race, he will be adapting this to purify all elven subraces save his own High-Elves. :shifty:
Pyre_Born 07-18-07, 12:02 AM	I think there are nearly as many dwarf subraces, and that the half-assed new races like Raptorans far outnumber elves. So I can't understand the elf thing. I never understood the focus on Elven subraces, but I agree with Rogue Shadow, Dwarves have nearly as many sub races, and most are even more similar to each other than the elves, but I never hear about Dwarf Subrace bashing. I don't think people should hate the subraces because of fanboys and munchkins. But that's just my opinion. In my campaign I even out the subraces as much as I can...their are as many Orc subraces as Elves, because they share the same heritage and environments most of the time. And their are 5 types of humans.
TwiddleStootch 07-18-07, 11:03 AM	I for one do not like sub-races in any form. It seems like a cheap way to add favor and differences. In my Campaign world, there are only two kind of Elves; High elves who live in forests and Desert Elves (From the UA variant). The only other racial variant I use is for Halflings; I have Arctic Halflings. However, to make differences between the races, at least for Gnomes and Dwarves, their Racial attack bonuses and weapons they can choose for Weapon Familiarity are different depending on where they are from.
Nephlite 08-10-07, 12:29 AM	I never understood the focus on Elven subraces, but I agree with Rogue Shadow, Dwarves have nearly as many sub races, and most are even more similar to each other than the elves, but I never hear about Dwarf Subrace bashing. Count off the Dwarfs. And tell me: what reason did they evolve? Are they affected from environment like Elves?
FearzThug 08-10-07, 04:09 AM	I think the problem with elves is that they are supposed to be better then everyone at everything.
Rogue Shadows 08-10-07, 09:44 AM	Count off the Dwarfs. And tell me: what reason did they evolve? Are they affected from environment like Elves? Well, let's see. From my own personal collection of D&D books, as well as what I can recall of the top of my head, I can pull... Basic Dwarf: Hill Dwarf Monster Manual Expansions: Mountain dwarves (they live deeper than hill dwarves, but not as deep as deep dwarves), deep dwarves (live really deep down), duergar (mind flayer-enhanced subrace), derro (demented human-dwarf subrace) Forgotten Realms: Arctic dwarves (the cold areas), gold dwarves (no actual reason to be different), wild dwarves (Chultan), sand dwarves (Maztica) Oriental Adventures: Korobokuru (dwarves from the East, desu) That's nine dwarven subraces (or eight and a half if you count the derro for only half). I'm sure someone else can continue to expand this list from other supplements, but I don't have them so I can't. Elves have: Basic Elf: High elf. Monster Manual: Wilf elf, wood elf, dark elf, gray elf, half-elf Forgotten Realms: Star elf (all other elves are simply re-named versions of MM elves). Oriental Adventures: None, unless you want to count its suggestion in its "alternate Rokugan" where elves would be the equivilent of the Crane clan. But I don't. So that's...six elf subraces from my core books. Five and a half, really, if you count the half-elf as only half. If you wanted to, I suppose you could count the drider as an elf subrace (maybe), and thus the drider could push the five and a half back up to six, or at the very least 5.75. Hmm.
queenfange 08-10-07, 10:00 AM	I hate Elves... too many sub races (as with Dwarves). Lets see: High Wood Grey Wild Dark Umbral (Shadow Elves) Sun Moon Psionic Aquatic Fire Arctic Snow Desert Jungle Fire Half Star Einherjar (Valenar) (Aerenal) So many Elves... Why is it that everything must have at least one elf in it? For all this Humans have adopted to many the environments without need to change their stats. Theres an old saying, if you create a new plane, chances are the first living things on that plane would be Bacteria, and Elves. Only an idiot would use those many subraces in a campaign. I think that a variety of options can be useful, but that people who throw more than a few elf subraces in without a damn good reason are being silly. As to evolution- in my world, creationism is reality. The deities made some variation within the major races (humans included, though they aren't called subraces for the politically correct reasons :P), and influence from mythical figures, their environments, and again, the deities, divided them in to the current major subraces (not just elves, but one of my homebrew races as well). In cases where there were no good reasons for subraces (such as little variation at first, all living in the same region, and the same patron deity for the whole race), subraces were not introduced. There should NOT be elves in every environment (though arguably, why should humans be? because they breed quickly?). On a related note, I would never play in a campaign where the local elf groups had creative names such as "jungle elf", "artic elf", and "desert elf." Another problem I think some of us see is that people throw in elf subraces because they are: a) too lazy to make new races b) want more variety in game statistics options c) so easily available, and so don't even have to modify the standard elf themselves! In conclusion, I agree with Shiftkitty's continued, excellent points and would like to say that if done correctly, GMs who use more than one type of elf shouldn't have to put up with crap about how there's too many elf subraces (unless the GM is using many or all of those- then they likely have issues). It's like blaming J.K. Rowling that kids only read Harry Potter- just plain stupid. Why isn't anyone blaming WotC? Seriously, they're the ones who printed all these subraces. I for one would use more gnome subraces, for example, if they were easily accessible. In moderation, with good reason, elf subraces are appropriate in some campaigns. In too great a quantity, or with crappy reasoning behing them, or combined with a clear lack of person GM creativity, they are USELESS and DUMB and OBNOXIOUS. P.S. Why are drow an exception? They are by far the most overused. :ahem: Sorry about the rant; it's scary how passionate we all are about this. :rofl:
Pyre_Born 08-10-07, 10:19 AM	Count off the Dwarfs. And tell me: what reason did they evolve? Are they affected from environment like Elves? I'm only going with "campaign neutral" here. I'll leave out the Unearthed Arcana because they cover every race Dwarves: 1) Hill Dwarf - Base Dwarf 2) Mountain Dwarf - No real change in the base dwarf other than fluff 3) Duergar (Grey Dwarf) - Drow of the Dwarves...Monster Manual fluff doesn't give a real reason though 4) Deep Dwarf - Affected by the depth 5) Dream Dwarf - Affected by the land, they listen to the dreams of the earth 6) Badlands Dwarf - Affected by the desert 7) Glacier Dwarves - Affected by the Ice 8) Seacliff Dwarves - Affected by their community location *9)Gold Dwarf (from DMG) - Not much change, but their is a ability modifier change, can't find an environmental factor though *I don't consider this a neutral subrace, it's just an example for DM's Elves: 1) High Elves - Base Elves 2) Grey Elves - Affected by Isolation 3) Wild Elves - Affected by Barbaric Nature 4) Wood Elves - Affected by Forest 5) Drow - See Duergar Aquatic Elves - Not counting these because of the UA variant 6) Painted Elf - Affected by the Desert 7) Snow Elf - Affected by the Snow So to answer your question, in my opinion, they are about even, roughly half affected by environment and half by society. The difference is that Dwarves are only really affected in their abilities, while Elves are affected in the stats, and usually not much more than weapon proficiencies. Sorry If I got anything wrong, going from memory, and skimming my books. I view it this way, I use subraces mostly for fluff, but I also enjoy the difference in traits while staying in the same races. I understand that most munchkins use the elven subraces to max out any class they want, but that's not a reason to dislike a race, that's a reason to dislike a player. Sorry again if I just went on about nothing :p
Rogue Shadows 08-10-07, 10:20 AM	a) too lazy to make new races Usually, I make elf subraces 'cause I think it'd be cool, actually. For example, in my world of Erran, elves are basically one of the two most powerful races, with the other being dragons (of course). Originally, there was just the one elf race, the Chel-uluuri. The noble Houses of Chel-uluur, however, were very incestuous. Centuries of controlled breeding lead to two major Houes, Alaar and Iliir, becoming their own separate subrace from the main bulk of elfkind. When the last Monarch of Chel-uluur died without heir, the nobles went to war for several centuries, as did the Guilds. Eventually, the Alaari and Iliiri caim to triumph over all the other noble Houses. Those nobles, along with all non-Alaari or Iliiri elves, were exiled from Chel-uluur to the big island, Erran. Meanwhile, the Alaari and Iliiri divided Chel-uluur equally between the two of them. Thus were the three elf subraces born: The Chel-alaari, or Light elves (called such for their albino skin); the Chel-iliiri, or Dark elves (called such for their black skin), and the exiled Sceadu, or Shadow elves (who conform to the basic High elf stats, and are called such because they are neither Chel-alaari or Chel-iliiri).
Hochiu 08-10-07, 10:24 AM	Einherjar aren't a subrace. They're demi-gods (Divine Rank 0), the ascended souls of warriors who, after living a life of dedication to battle, fell gloriously and were taken to Valhalla or Freyja's own hall. If you notice, they have human and dwarven Einherjar there, too, and should be counted as a seperate race of (divine) beings. A few years ago I developed a world (now defunct) with cultural additions to it that you apply at character creation. This includes access to feats available only to that culture, the addition of skills/bonuses to each race based on culture, and the development of "cultural" stubstitution levels, where a culture gained a little bit of flavor in terms of class, as well. Forgotten Realms does something like this, where each region grants equipment, feats, etc. I just expanded on it. That's how I think "subraces" are supposed to be. I find the presentation of the term "subrace" to be abhorrent and offensive from an anthropological perspective and, as a previous poster already said, they are applied to EVERY OTHER race but humans, because its not politically correct to do otherwise. To the OP: Tell your friend to take his wrath out on Forgotten Realms. That's where I blame most of this from coming from.
Pyre_Born 08-10-07, 10:33 AM	Usually, I make elf subraces 'cause I think it'd be cool, actually. For example, in my world of Erran, elves are basically one of the two most powerful races, with the other being dragons (of course). Originally, there was just the one elf race, the Chel-uluuri. The noble Houses of Chel-uluur, however, were very incestuous. Centuries of controlled breeding lead to two major Houes, Alaar and Iliir, becoming their own separate subrace from the main bulk of elfkind. When the last Monarch of Chel-uluur died without heir, the nobles went to war for several centuries, as did the Guilds. Eventually, the Alaari and Iliiri caim to triumph over all the other noble Houses. Those nobles, along with all non-Alaari or Iliiri elves, were exiled from Chel-uluur to the big island, Erran. Meanwhile, the Alaari and Iliiri divided Chel-uluur equally between the two of them. Thus were the three elf subraces born: The Chel-alaari, or Light elves (called such for their albino skin); the Chel-iliiri, or Dark elves (called such for their black skin), and the exiled Sceadu, or Shadow elves (who conform to the basic High elf stats, and are called such because they are neither Chel-alaari or Chel-iliiri). I think this style would help people accept subraces more. You make them "real", you give them a reason for being their. They aren't just elves living in the forest, or elves living in the woods, they have a reason for their existence. Are their any threads to help people come up with some real fluff for their subraces? I think I'd like to add some ideas, if not I guess I might start one!
Hochiu 08-10-07, 10:38 AM	Are their any threads to help people come up with some real fluff for their subraces? I think I'd like to add some ideas, if not I guess I might start one! If you start a thread, I would suggest allowing individuals to post their own fluff submissions, for reference and comparison.
Pyre_Born 08-10-07, 11:28 AM	If you start a thread, I would suggest allowing individuals to post their own fluff submissions, for reference and comparison. That's what I was thinking, allowing people to pool their fluff in one thread, that way they can take some ideas, and expand upon their own. I like the idea of being able to compare racial history. I'm going to be out of the house for a while, but when I get back I'll start a thread and post the link here in case anyone wants it.
Moniker 08-10-07, 11:29 AM	I hate all elves. I hate the fandom surrounding Drow since the early 90's. As a matter of fact, I HATE demihumans. We don't even use demihumans in my game. We avoided the popular, boring elven, dwarven and halfing fantasy game all together. :)
archerpwr 08-10-07, 01:20 PM	That's a great rant. Why I use subraces: 1) PHB elves suck hard 2) Optimization (dragonborn fire elf = win for wizards)
queenfange 08-10-07, 02:04 PM	I think this style would help people accept subraces more. You make them "real", you give them a reason for being their. They aren't just elves living in the forest, or elves living in the woods, they have a reason for their existence. I completely agree. This is what I would deem a good use of elven subraces; my comments about too lazy don't apply to Rogue Shadows, as he has made an admirable effort to integrate REASONS, not just, as Pyre_Born put it, "Oh, look- some elves leave in a tree." I dislike most PH subraces as well. I don't really use races for optimization, but I think it's nifty that other GMs do. If anyone makes a seperate thread regarding GOOD ways to use elf (or any other race) subraces, I'd love to see it!
Fenghuang 08-10-07, 03:33 PM	I'm only going with "campaign neutral" here. I'll leave out the Unearthed Arcana because they cover every race Dwarves: 1) Hill Dwarf - Base Dwarf 2) Mountain Dwarf - No real change in the base dwarf other than fluff 3) Duergar (Grey Dwarf) - Drow of the Dwarves...Monster Manual fluff doesn't give a real reason though 4) Deep Dwarf - Affected by the depth 5) Dream Dwarf - Affected by the land, they listen to the dreams of the earth 6) Badlands Dwarf - Affected by the desert 7) Glacier Dwarves - Affected by the Ice 8) Seacliff Dwarves - Affected by their community location *9)Gold Dwarf (from DMG) - Not much change, but their is a ability modifier change, can't find an environmental factor though *I don't consider this a neutral subrace, it's just an example for DM's Don't forget the Arctic Dwarf/Innugaakalikurit, Urdunnir, and Wild Dwarf from Forgotten Realms, Also the Midgard dwarf. Technically an outsider, but it has the "dwarven blood" trait. Elves: 1) High Elves - Base Elves 2) Grey Elves - Affected by Isolation 3) Wild Elves - Affected by Barbaric Nature 4) Wood Elves - Affected by Forest 5) Drow - See Duergar Aquatic Elves - Not counting these because of the UA variant However, they are distinct. The UA variant lacks gills. 6) Painted Elf - Affected by the Desert 7) Snow Elf - Affected by the Snow Also the Avariel/Winged Elf from Forgotten Realms, and the Star Elf from FR: Unapproachable East. To everyone who says there aren't human subraces; it's all in how you term a subrace. There are plenty of races that are the result of humans mixing with other races, and some-- the Mongrelfolk as written in Races of Destiny, and the Sea Kin --have the (Human) subtype. Then there are several races which are explicitly humans adapted to environments or magically mutated: the Aventi, Inspired, Neanderthal, Sharakim, Skulk, and Underfolk among them. There's also a surprising number of gnomish subraces: chaos, forest, ice, rock (the classic), svirfneblin, wavecrest, and whisper gnomes among them. Even monstrous races get this treatment; consider the variety of trolls and hags, or the bhuka, dekanter, forestkith, and snow goblins adding to the goblinoid genepool. From what I can see, it isn't so much that there are a lot of elvish subraces; more that there are too many visible elvish subraces. For a supposedly mysterious race, elves tend to show up an awful lot. Thanks to the popularity of drow, and the elvish tendency towards building vast humanlike cities-- dwarves seem to prefer underground locations or small villages, gnobody gnows about gnomes, and halflings are the archetypal (and literal) small village dwellers --elves get a lot of notice, and so any weird new elvish subrace will get just as much attention. But then, the star elves are just kind of ridiculous. Purple elves? Really? I mean, come on.
TheShadowsRedemption 08-10-07, 04:38 PM	I do not hate elves, nor their subraces. What I do not like though is an elven subrace that lacks a specific purpose or reason to existing, which some campaign settings, possess those. It just seems to me that some campaign settings just made a subrace for the sake of making a subrace, and not because the general culture and mindset was even different. When people do subraces like that, it just comes across as a filler more than anything without substance. If races and subraces are done well, it really is no issue to me - more or less when all of these subraces are found on one world setting. **ENTER RANT HERE*** My main peeve, however, is badly played elves, as I would call them. And I seen many of them in servers so to be fair, I cannot blame anyone for disliking them. Half of the time, it seems (not saying anyone here is like this, I am speaking of generalities) they want to play an elf just because it looks "prettier", does not physically age, and lives a long time...on a side note: has anyone looked at what an elf looks like in the majority of pictures? I can only name a handful of female elves that looked elf-like but still appealing (including the ones I pride myself on drawing)...but still maintain their elven features and still having the *coughs* proportions attractive on human females without looking too ridiculous. I go through pains to study the culture and races of what I make so that I can adapt something that makes them that race. In a server I used to play in, the elves just came across as humans with pointed ears to me. It was not just the numbers, but these elves were fooling around with a human within a week when I would play one that would take nearly months in the real world to get close to, let alone romance - especially being romanced by a human, who from what I understood, were considered "apes" as far as elven standards went, due to obvious physiological differences. She was a monk and Lawful Good, but she had the aloofness, the "patience" that elves are known for, the whole "sophistication" complex, and so forth. Some of these people did not have even at least one of those. She also had to face the harsh realities of having a non-elven mate and was totally aware of the realities, sometimes being pained by them. Despite her iron will, she still had a sensitive mind and things stuck on her for far longer than it did a standard human, as far as experiences and tragedies went. I also managed to explain why she turned Lawful Good and a monk instead of being Chaotic Good and Neutral Good like most elves due to their culturally-inspired, prelevantly strong respect for life and individuality. And even then, the character had her sense of independence under the bounds of her code of conduct. It is my theory, though I could be wrong, that no one would be criticising elves so much if this problem was not abound. The majority of dwarves I seen played at least have some trait of a typical dwarf and therefore, are not given as much flack. **END RANT HERE** As for elven subraces, I do have some, though not in the same way a D&D world has them. They are not as many in numbers and later, the drow become a completely different race/culture of their own. There is also another split that happens after the drow split from the elves, which make a more Vulcan type of race, more or less flavour for the setting and treated as extraplanar when it comes to banishment and dying in their own home plane...sort of like the Star Elves of the Forgotten Realms, but a clearly different race (since I liked the idea of the Star Elves, but I hated the fact another elven subrace was made and thought their abilities fit the concept of a race I wanted to make closer - it will insult this race to call them an elf, for it would be like calling a nymph an elf, or an elf a nymph, despite how similar they look to each other). In this setting, I have the spirit folk implemented, since they are more easily adaptable to human-like customs and are often found amongst humans. They also are close to elves in the basic features that people find attractive on them, without being as uncommon or as specific culture-wise. Part of the goals of my setting is to make sure the elves have their own culture and to encourage less of the playing the race just because it looks nice or lives a long time, so a spirit folk was an okay compromise, for I know it will be part of the player's desires that will keep the game alive. It really comes down to quasi-realism. No one should make a subrace just because it is a subrace, or has nicer abilities. Any subrace made should reflect the culture and setting of their game. As for Forgotten Realms subraces. I love the Realms, but I will admit that I do have a few nitpicks of my own on their elven subraces. Avariel. Yes, they are pretty and who would not want to be able to play an elf with pretty wings? But really. I honestly can say I do not see a purpose to this race. I can understand the moon elves representing the standard and tolerant adventuring elf. I can understand the gold elves being the "high class", arrogant elves who want to maintain the elven culture. I can understand the wood elves being more accustomed to the woods and forests, seeing that as the biggest concern for the elven culture. But an avariel? I see no purpose with this race, for they seem little more than just a more haughty version of the sun elves. If people want elves with wings, why not just slap the half-celestial template on the elf? Eladrin will sometimes pick an elven mate, really. And half-celestials got wings and are only an ECL higher than an avariel. Hells, with Unearthed Arcana's rulings, you can fight the ECL issue. Or better yet, why not just associate the avariel with an existing elven subrace and say they just happen to have planar blood in them, without making them their own subrace? I am sorry about this if I sound offensive, for I really am not trying to be. If anything, I thought the avariel were rare and almost extinct, thus less likely having the numbers to be their own subrace. It is just how I feel. As for the fey'ri. I like their concept, but I do have the same nitpick with them as I do the avariel, but for slightly different reasons. I do not think that it is feasible to have a house or set of houses produce enough of these to be considered a branch of their own race. And honestly, if anything, they probably should have kept as flavour for the sun elven subrace culture and as a note of a unique sun-elven house or group of houses to enrich elven history. Why not just have a half-fiend or tiefling template put on a sun elf, instead if people want to play a fey'ri? It is simple, really. Drow: keep pillaging and enslaving those pesky surface races, keep sacrificing and trophying your surface cousins, and keep at it. Win the war and dominate the surface elves one day and turn tables with them. Make *them* the ones who are on the low and scorned, just like they did to you when they banished you to the Underdark. I see the reason why the drow were made into their own subrace and it is fully understandable. Every race has its dark side. Even Tolkien had the concept of culturally evil humans who twisted into their own races.
Pyre_Born 08-10-07, 08:07 PM	If anyone makes a separate thread regarding GOOD ways to use elf (or any other race) subraces, I'd love to see it! I just got home, and I should get to making a thread tonight, when I make it, I'll post the link here.
Pyre_Born 08-10-07, 08:17 PM	Here's the Link (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=13373398#post13373398) This thread is to share and discuss your homebrew fluff for races and subraces. This is NOT to bash people's choice in races. Anyone who wants to can post, but please keep it constructive. Thank You
queenfange 08-10-07, 08:46 PM	I do not hate elves, nor their subraces. What I do not like though is an elven subrace that lacks a specific purpose or reason to existing, which some campaign settings, possess those. It just seems to me that some campaign settings just made a subrace for the sake of making a subrace, and not because the general culture and mindset was even different. When people do subraces like that, it just comes across as a filler more than anything without substance. If races and subraces are done well, it really is no issue to me - more or less when all of these subraces are found on one world setting. **ENTER RANT HERE*** My main peeve, however, is badly played elves, as I would call them. And I seen many of them in servers so to be fair, I cannot blame anyone for disliking them. Half of the time, it seems (not saying anyone here is like this, I am speaking of generalities) they want to play an elf just because it looks "prettier", does not physically age, and lives a long time.... I completely agree. It's not about what the subrace is or how many there are so much as how well it's done and the rationale behind it.
key 08-10-07, 09:59 PM	But an avariel? I see no purpose with this race, for they seem little more than just a more haughty version of the sun elves. RoF: "Of all the elven subraces, sun elves are the most arrogant and haughty--even more so than the avariels, whose haughtiness is rooted in pity for the landbound races."
TheShadowsRedemption 08-11-07, 12:59 AM	Okay, proven wrong. Sorry about that. But still, while it is fine to play an avariel...I just see no point in the race being made. Oh well, maybe I was just grumpy earlier and saw too many badly played races. I dont feel as bad about them at the moment. Sorry again if I offended anyone.
Hochiu 08-11-07, 07:01 PM	RoF: "Of all the elven subraces, sun elves are the most arrogant and haughty--even more so than the avariels, whose haughtiness is rooted in pity for the landbound races." "Oh, let us pity the horrid landbounders!" "Yes! Their ability to withstand falls that would shatter our feeble, hollow bones is laughable!" I. Hate. Avariels.
Rogue Shadows 08-14-07, 09:20 AM	But...But Aerie! From Baldur's Gate II...I liked her. Well, she got a little whiney at times, but she was far more interesting a romance to play through than any of the others. "Oh, let us pity the horrid landbounders!" "Yes! Their ability to withstand falls that would shatter our feeble, hollow bones is laughable!" I think it's more like, "let us pity the landbounders, they'll never know the joys of flying." But that's just a sneaking suspiscion borne from a lack of overwhelming hatred towards Avariels. I could be wrong. To everyone who says there aren't human subraces... Don't forget that seven human clans from Oriental Adventures...
Hochiu 08-14-07, 11:16 AM	Don't forget that seven human clans from Oriental Adventures... They need to actually clarify what a "subrace" is. By-in-large, it seems that subraces are races that have changes done to their ability-scores or the inclusion of new racial abilities. Or perhaps, it's when they're accounted as a different race (Half-elves count as elves) for the intent of spells. I wouldn't consider the Great Clans of Rokugan subraces at all. There's nothing mechanically different about them except for maybe a handful fo skill bonuses representing cultural diversity. If that's the case, then the humans from every nation and region of Faerun are subraces of humans. :P
aryeha 08-14-07, 04:04 PM	i am so amazingly racist against elves that my friends make fun of me. i cant help it, i hate them. HATE them. seriously, im right now writing a drow campaign with one purpose in mind : KILL ALL ELVES. take no prisoners. and dont forget to sacrifice or torture a few, just because they deserve it. down with elves!
knuck 08-14-07, 07:34 PM	1. It's politically incorrect to do this with humans. Extremely politically incorrect.Because people are retarded. It's fine for the dark-skinned elf to be an evil race, right? They have hueg ears and are != humans. omgomg Retard logic. :rolleyes:
queenfange 08-14-07, 07:58 PM	Because people are retarded. It's fine for the dark-skinned elf to be an evil race, right? They have hueg ears and are != humans. omgomg Retard logic. :rolleyes: You know, people can take offense at "retarded" too. :D I recommend those people buy a dictionary; it means slow or delayed (I have no issue with the word). Ironic though (OK, you probably knew that and used that term on purpose). Yeah, good point with the drow. Also, evil races tend to be "barbaric", aka have tribal or migratory traditions rather than European-style farming or feudal systems. That's just a bit ethnocentric too. Anyway, I don't think it's worth a huge fuss though- people should use or avoid "subraces" based on what they and their DnD group are comfortable with... I don't want to see this thread degenerate into the "ZOMG U R 2 RACIST, DOOD" and "WTF N00BLET, HUMANZ CAN HAVE SUBRACS GIT A LIFE" sort of talk. So far, it's been pretty good and I for one am I enjoying the elf discussion.
Shiftkitty 08-14-07, 09:55 PM	You know, after reading the Arcane Age supplements regarding the early history of elves in Faerun and a few other fan-based-but-not-too-far-from-canon histories of the drow, I've come to see the Sun elves as the bad guys. I've also come to v iew Corellon as a jerk because, according to the Arcane Age books, he banished not only the drow who were fighting the other elves, but even those who were trying to live in peace and had nothing to do with the wars. Lolth doesn't appear in the Arcane Age supplements, which, in my game, has her pegged as a liar who has convinced the drow of a false history regarding her and Corellon and the drow choosing to follow her. Church conspiracies, anyone? Was this covered in any books? For being such a fan of the game, I've read very few of the novels.
Rogue Shadows 08-15-07, 09:21 AM	They need to actually clarify what a "subrace" is. By-in-large, it seems that subraces are races that have changes done to their ability-scores or the inclusion of new racial abilities. Or perhaps, it's when they're accounted as a different race (Half-elves count as elves) for the intent of spells. I wouldn't consider the Great Clans of Rokugan subraces at all. There's nothing mechanically different about them except for maybe a handful fo skill bonuses representing cultural diversity. Each of 'em gets an automatic class skill and a favored class (Example: Unicorn get Ride automatically and favor the Barbarian class). Their human bonus feat list is also limited; they can only pick an ancestor feat, rather than any feat. That's limited enough to be "mechanically" a subrace, if not in a broader sense.
PhaedrusXY 10-25-07, 01:52 PM	All my characters will willingly pledge themselves to your (un)holy crusade. :D
Kersyk 10-27-07, 11:59 PM	I dont hate elves, I have actually played several elven characters... but know thanks to that scheme I'm scared of EVERYTHING!!!
Windspear 10-30-07, 09:09 AM	OMFG that is ingenious!!!!!!! I'm SO doing that!! I have a friend who is DMing or us right now. He created a world a long time ago and he keeps it's history. I'm doing that, turning to an evil god and be remembered in his history for ever and ever!! I can imagine it: DM: "What character are you playing?" Player: "An elf ranger" DM: "You can't" Player: "What do you mean I can't? Why not?" DM: "Elves were exterminated long ago. No elves left" Player: "Oh. That sucks" XD XD XD XD XD
Omnirahk, half-Rahkshi 11-03-07, 05:11 PM	I remember that rant. Hilarious. Great work. And for anyone who doesn't like elves, the DragonMech setting can go with that. Heck, there the elves are all emo. I'll quote them: "The forests are dead. Life is pain." Sounds emo to me. And there's a lot of trafficking with devils. Heck, their greatest hope is a mage who's aging a year for every weak as the gods themselves drain him of life. The elves are not happy there. Sounds like a great place to torture them. Heck, I might even say DragonMech is the elven Hell. Or has potential to be viewed that way, with the right DM.
Novem 11-03-07, 09:50 PM	I do play with Evolution in my games, and in them- let's just say they're not in decline because of some stupid call to the sea. I don't mind subraces, I just hate Elves, because of the way they are presented in fantasy classics. To me, Elves represent institutionalized racism; Tolkien presented them in his world (which, in my opinion, is entirely bigoted), and they have come to represent the idea that good-looking people are always good, that any race can be "perfect" or "superior", they are often put forward as arrogant, aloof, and occasionally unjust, and the worst part of it all is that they are described as if this is right.
Guardian1 11-03-07, 09:58 PM	You should write an article called, "The Final Solution to the Elvish Problem". Oh wait, someone did that already. :devil: Do we have a Godwin here? Oops, double post, please ignore.
Guardian1 11-03-07, 10:03 PM	You should write an article called, "The Final Solution to the Elvish Problem". Oh wait, someone did that already. :devil: Do we have a Godwin here? But seriously, is there a reason why the OP's friend hate elves so much? Personally, I like elves. Back in 2nd ED, they were my favorite race, with half-elves and human tied at a close second. Even now, I still like them. In fact, the only reason I don't play them as much as I used to is that -2 Con, and I've always preferred melee to spellcasting. -2 Con doesn't help out much there.
Hochiu 11-04-07, 12:33 AM	I can't speak for the OP's friend, but I can't stand elves because of the whole culture that's evolved around them and their massive amounts of subraces. I can't stand when people portray them as this high and mighty civilization that, while magically/technologically/socially superior to other races, are suffering and are being driven to the brink of existence with low numbers. I don't like it, and it doesn't make sense to me. I don't like how the superiority of the elves as written by Tolkien gets translated into the fan-base as some "Holy crap! They're the greatest race ever, you must BOW to them". I don't like when fans specifically do things like there was on this forum years ago: a poster's DM made it so that humans had to make saves to go against orders by Elves because they basically thought Elves were the greatest thing since breathing. I'll admit, my first reason for absolutely hating elves is because of these overzealous fans - I often get turned off to things when I hear a lot of fanboy/girling. But otherwise, they're portrayed so unoriginally these days: Stuck up, arrogant, isolationist, yet somehow powerful and magically inclined without having much to show for it in territorial or political gains. Subraces are a problem, too, because they get made for any class for any kind of regional or cultural differences that don't make sense from anything other than a, "Let's make nifty new races mechanically so people buy our stuff!". And its true. I blame most of the propigation of these elves and their subraces (dwarves too, to a lesser extent) on Forgotten Realms. There are so many visible elven races there, that just get me grumpy.
key 11-06-07, 02:02 AM	I don't mind subraces, I just hate Elves, because of the way they are presented in fantasy classics. To me, Elves represent institutionalized racism; Tolkien presented them in his world (which, in my opinion, is entirely bigoted), and they have come to represent the idea that good-looking people are always good, that any race can be "perfect" or "superior", they are often put forward as arrogant, aloof, and occasionally unjust, and the worst part of it all is that they are described as if this is right. Hmm, those are many of the reasons why I like them.
Starchaserva 11-06-07, 04:23 PM	Well, that rant was about the dumbest thing that I've read in while. If you don't like elvish subraces so much, why don't you just not use them instead of *****ing about them. I'd dissect your little story, but I don't want to be a hypocrite by writing a rant as long as yours.
ff6shadow 11-06-07, 06:39 PM	Just read through here. Nothing to specific to add, but this link is another hilarious elf related post. http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13865027&postcount=2
Hochiu 11-07-07, 09:38 AM	Well, that rant was about the dumbest thing that I've read in while. If you don't like elvish subraces so much, why don't you just not use them instead of *****ing about them. I'd dissect your little story, but I don't want to be a hypocrite by writing a rant as long as yours. Bringing up what you'd "do", but refrain from doing so in order to make yourself seem like you're the "bigger person" is an exercise in being obnoxious. And if you have such a problem with people complaining about them, why bother even coming to the thread?
tyrandor 12-26-07, 12:13 AM	I find it extremely funny that so many people hate Elves, but like (or at least find 'ok') the Drows. Because they're evil, wear black clothes, are deadly and essentially are your teenage fantasies put together. Essentially, because they KICK ASS! in a 300 kind of way. Kind of like the Dwarves. On the other hand, the classic elves, highly inspired by Tolkien, are essentially the socialites, the cool kids at school that mocks the others... those who are assumed to be better by simple breeding or social pressure rather then by abilities. I'm probably reading waaaaaaay to much in this, but it's always funny to see a rpg geek claim a burning hatred for the elves. Redirecting much? >_> Still, the 'superiority' of the elves is often implied... and it truly makes no sense in 3.5 D&D where elves aren't really superior to any other races (quite the contrary from a mechanical point of view)... Don't get me wrong, I actually enjoy both races and over the years, I've probably played an equal amount of both (over different systems, one of my longest running character was a Dwarven Street Samurai in Shadow Run and the first D&D (1st ed!) characrer I made was an Elf). Both races certainly have their value and add a certain flavor to the world. Kinda hard to fathom why you'd dislike a fictional race so much and even more so, why it has to be dwarve vs elf.
Windspear 02-17-08, 08:21 AM	I think that is AWESOME and I would really like to try this. So, what do we need? -We need a lot of contact poison, which means A LOT of money. -We need some sort of magical (or seemingly magical) equipment to smeer with the poisin so the adventurers will take it and die. -We need to think abput what class will the character be. Will it be wiz/sorc/cleric/ or maybe wee need a party? Mmmm... Nothing else, really. Now I just need to follow the master plan and it might work.
Pudge_is_cute 02-18-08, 03:12 AM	There are three kinds of elves that can live... Blood Elves (for those who play WoW). All other must die. This is for the good of mankind. The elves have more subraces than all oter races combined. It is called thinning the herd people. Bloodelves are emo's, I hate them for that reason and their self righteous **** against humans. It is they that refused the alliance in the 1st place when the infection on the north is already spreading, thinking that their fancy magic can stop Lord So... urrrhmmm.. King Arthas from raping Sylvanas Ass in the first place. And now, they complain since the humans are bullying them. I mean anyone would be self-righteously angry at someone who goes on their own and now comes crawling back to you to help them. To tell the truth they are the one who are in debt when the alliance still accepts them in the first place. The Dwarves are reliable, even if they are miles away from Lordaeron that is why they are treated well. Now, they are horde, good job Bloodelves, what a bunch of emo traitors. Moon... oh I mean nightelves on the other hand likes owls, I hate owls. But "their cats are fine too", so there.:D
Etarnon 02-27-08, 02:13 AM	Elves have their place in my campaign as the inventors of magic, and chronomancy, centuries ago.
LordMongoose 03-05-08, 11:35 AM	I can't speak for the OP's friend, but I can't stand elves because of the whole culture that's evolved around them and their massive amounts of subraces. This, for those wondering about my friend. I like the 4E approach to elves. We've got our "super-elves" - the ones who take elvishness to an extreme. We've got vanilla elvy elves. And we've got drow, the "evil elves". For the record, I look forward to playing an (apparently) amoral eladrin warlock.
alangriffith 03-09-08, 10:09 AM	Well, let's see. From my own personal collection of D&D books, as well as what I can recall of the top of my head, I can pull... [snip] derro (demented human-dwarf subrace) I really don't see derro as being a dwarf subrace. They don't have dwarven blood (the trait), have no traits in common with dwarves (no stability, no weapon proficiencies, no charisma penalty even after you take out the madness adjustment), they aren't humanoid and aren't even the same size as dwarves. The only thing to connect them with dwarves at all is the bit written in the monster manual which says "created from dwarf and human stock". Now I don't know if that background was written by a different developer to whoever did the stat block, or whether derro back in a previous addition were dwarflike and this holdover remains despite the 3rd ed stats, but I can't see any sanity in the claim (unless they were bred from tiny bits of dwarf and human stock, with a hefty dose of something strangely not mentioned). I mean, derro are small sized, for goodness sake! humans and dwarves are medium, but derro are supposed to shrink below the size of either forbear in the breeding process, when no other underdark or magically created race does so (that I know of). They also get spell-like abilities, something neither dwarves nor humans get in any form (although admittedly the drow pick up spell-like abilities and elves don't have them). To my mind they are far more like gnomes, with the spell-like abilities, natural magical/alchemical tendancies and small size. Then there's the cultural thing of them basically being mad scientist/wizard types, which fits nicely with the gnome reputation as tinkerers and inventors. Also the gnomes as written are the only race with no dark side, as their underdark variant are good-aligned. Anyway, aside from this rant, even if you accept them as being dwarf-human only crossbreeds because the book says so, they are so far removed from dwarves stat-wise that they must have evolved/twisted/changed way beyond sub-race status. They can't even be affected by a bane weapon or ranger built to target dwarves, due to a different creature type. P.S. All those thinking of taking up the originally-quoted poster's plan, its riddled with flaws. I'll briefly summarise these here rather than pick it apart piece by piece, as the plan is a kind of aside to the main discussion. 1) contact poison has fortitude saves which adventurers can make, slow-acting means time to cast neutralise poison, glug antitoxins or use neutralise poision potions (something PCs I know are rarely without once past about 5th level). Then there's the already raised cheap items and starting races (Dwarves and warforged are my favourites) with poison immunity or big bonuses vs. poison 2) There is a hard limit to how many zombies you can control. As it is based on hit dice, transformed powerful adventurers don't get round it. If you are relying on your bargain with Gruumsh to avoid this restriction, expect your Gruumsh-empowered poison zombies to turn to dust or attack you the minute you try an organise the orc massacre. 3) On the subject of Gruumsh, he is not an idiot, he has (unsurprisingly) Godlike mental ability scores. I also believe he has the standard godly power of seeing things which affect his portfolio long before they happen (and his portfolio is orcs, so big massacres of them certainly count). The question must also be raised of how and why he could give you a ritual to make you more powerful than he is, and why he would not make it a reversible granting of boons in exchange for souls, rather than give you the ability to eat them. And as he is a racial surpremacist, you'd better be an orc, if not an orc cleric of gruumsh, to make this deal in the first place. If you are, his portfolio gives him even more liberty to see you coming and screw you up. 4) Getting an orc army killed is not the same as exterminating the race. Armies of orcs get alsughtered all the time. Gruumsh is hardly weakened. Also, Orcs don't recoil from the sun very far, they get a poxy -1 on attack rolls and spot checks. Drow are likewise hardly affected, as their one round blindness is only due to 'abrupt exposure to bright light', and sunrise is a gradual process. 4) Give a false vision to Cuthbertites? Cuthbertites don't use diviniation to check with their god if it was genuine, or seek further information? Cuthbert doesn't send a genuine vision warning of your perfidy, to these (high-wisdom) people who apparently blindly accept visions without checking? Must try harder. And yes that was a brief summary. I could go on and on (and frequently do).
PrinceOfTheVoid 03-09-08, 11:51 AM	God hates elves and elf-enablers (http://godhateselves.com/)
Drizztrocks 03-10-08, 05:24 PM	dude, write a book. I aint kidding. You'll inspire so many other elf haters. Really, though, what has everybody got against elves? The main idea of elves is a good one-but WHY must there be so many freakan subraces, I don't know. I like the idea elves set out, but their mechanic is boring and repulsive. I sure hope 4E fixes elves, then they'll be my favirote race. Along with halflings. And Kobolds. Who doesnt like Kobolds? Somebody should write a story about Kobolds taking over the world.....:evillaugh
Drizztrocks 03-10-08, 05:28 PM	Bloodelves are emo's, I hate them for that reason and their self righteous **** against humans. It is they that refused the alliance in the 1st place when the infection on the north is already spreading, thinking that their fancy magic can stop Lord So... urrrhmmm.. King Arthas from raping Sylvanas Ass in the first place. And now, they complain since the humans are bullying them. I mean anyone would be self-righteously angry at someone who goes on their own and now comes crawling back to you to help them. To tell the truth they are the one who are in debt when the alliance still accepts them in the first place. The Dwarves are reliable, even if they are miles away from Lordaeron that is why they are treated well. Now, they are horde, good job Bloodelves, what a bunch of emo traitors. Moon... oh I mean nightelves on the other hand likes owls, I hate owls. But "their cats are fine too", so there.:D Wow....ummm...and how do you have time to live between WoW and D&D? :rolleyes:
Drizztrocks 03-10-08, 05:32 PM	God hates elves and elf-enablers (http://godhateselves.com/) Wow...you took that much trouble to make a website about all the terrible things elves have done to you? **tis, tisk, tisk** That's pathetic.
Pudge_is_cute 03-10-08, 10:18 PM	Wow....ummm...and how do you have time to live between WoW and D&D? :rolleyes: To tell the truth, Arthas and Soth are both battling out of who is the most badass in my mind, it appears Arthas is on the losing side though.
PrinceOfTheVoid 03-11-08, 02:21 PM	Wow...you took that much trouble to make a website about all the terrible things elves have done to you? **tis, tisk, tisk** That's pathetic. I didn't make that, I just found it from an add at EnWorld and thought it was fitting.:P