Deathless [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

Deathless [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Joe Gold
11-03-03, 12:50 AM So what exactly is the Deathless type? I'd check the BoED myself, but I probably won't see a book store until Thanksgiving. From what I heard, it's the same as Undead except more sunshine and bunnies.
SSj3goblin
11-03-03, 08:21 AM its about that. Deathless is new type who makes the assumption that all undeads are evil *THROWS THE ARCHLICH FROM FR ON THE TABLE* wich is dumb, but still the concept can be made to work. IMC i'll use it for divine good undeads, the crypt warden for BoED was a good example. IMHO
Count Arioch the 28th
11-03-03, 08:23 AM Personally, I'd move the Archlich and Baelnorn to the Deathless type myself. That is, if I had Baelnorns inad Archliches in my campaignb world.
SSj3goblin
11-03-03, 08:25 AM I maintain that good and neutral (skeletons & zombies) undeads should still be undeads unless theres a good (Flavor) reason to make them deathless.
MightyMightyThundarr
11-03-03, 08:28 AM Well, considering the magic used to animate skeletons and zombies is inherently evil, I'd say that they'd be evil no matter what. Unless you have some wacky good-aligned death god who provides an alternate version of animate dead.

I'd only give deathless type to a creature whose reason for rising from the grave was inherently good, Baelnorns being the primary example.
Count Arioch the 28th
11-03-03, 08:32 AM Technically, by the rules, Zombies and Skeletons can't have an evil alignment at all. The MM says explicitly "They can take no initiative on their own" Which means, if you create a zombie or skeleton, and don't give it orders, it stands there motionless until you do.

I'd hardly call that evil myself.
SSj3goblin
11-03-03, 08:34 AM thats why i said neutral undeads too, maybe it was a bad example , deathless should be a rare type used only for
"Exalted" undeads.

how will YOU use them in your campaign
Count Arioch the 28th
11-03-03, 08:38 AM Basically, I will use them for any type of good aligned undead.

All neutral and evil undead will retain the undead type.
SSj3goblin
11-03-03, 08:41 AM Well id gladly continue this conversation but i gotta go to school, but id like to continue the debate this evening (dont know what time it is where you are) but IMHO deathless is better for special holy undeads but i wont tell you how to dm.
Or will i ? :smirk:
MightyMightyThundarr
11-03-03, 10:01 AM Technically, by the rules, Zombies and Skeletons can't have an evil alignment at all.

The 3.5 MM also lists them as "always neutral evil" ;)

Since they are not self-willed, the only justification I can find for their being evil is that, since animate dead is an evil spell, skeletons and zombies are evil by virtue of the fact that they were animated by an evil spell. So even though the can't do evil on their own, their animating force is sufficiently evil to make anti-evil spells (holy smite, detect evil, etc) work against them.

Kind of in the same way that creatures with the evil subtype who have changed their alignment are still affected by anti-evil spells.
Mike the DM
11-03-03, 12:33 PM I haven't figure out if or how I'm going to integrate deathless into my campaign. I've long ruled that undeath comes from negative energy, and that at best undead can be neutral but never good. I'm going to have to think about this one some more...
Joe Gold
11-03-03, 04:45 PM So... celestials and fiends are both Outsiders, but bad dead creatures are Undead and good dead creatures are Deathless.

This seems to go with the BoED thinking of...
Poison is bad, use a Ravage instead. Diseases are horrible, an Affliction is much better. Undead are evil monsters, associate with Deathless.

Looks like the ends do justify the means if you use a;).

Does the book have Deathless creation spells? Do they have the [good] tag?

I was worried the BoED was going to say something like "no good character would stand the presence of an undead," this is almost worse.
MightyMightyThundarr
11-03-03, 05:25 PM To its credit, no spells exist for creating a deathless. Its more of a "I have come back from the dead to right was was wrong!" thing, rather than a "rise from the grave! Oh, and be good" thing.
Incenjucar
11-03-03, 05:36 PM I just consider them to be the long-rumored concept of positive energy undead, that so far have mostly been used by good folk, since so many undead are the result of spirits going insane.
bitnine
11-03-03, 05:43 PM Originally posted by Count Arioch the 28th
The MM says explicitly "They can take no initiative on their own"

(Psst! It only says that "seriously, they are initiative-free constructs" bit in the skeleton template. Zombies it instead denotes a lack of any intelligence. Reading them first, I took their wisdom score {of 10} to show that they, in absense of commands, still follow basic reflexes and instincts.

Actually, having read the zombie entry first, I assumed that it applied to both of them. As most other people, I imagine, read them alphabetically and saw the skeleton entry first.)
MightyMightyThundarr
11-03-03, 06:25 PM Remember, everything that is not an object has a Wisdom score and a Charisma score. In the absence of Intelligence, Wisdom basically means "I am capable of perceiving things" and Charisma basically means "I am not merely part of the landscape".

Both skeletons and zombies have a Wisdom score of 10. It doesn't mean that they have instincts to act on - it just means they don't take a penalty on Spot checks.

Why is their Wisdom score higher than that of some sentient creatures? Because it is not clouded by attempts at intellectualizing the world around them ;)
Romulus LoneWolf
11-03-03, 06:46 PM The way I see the Undead = Evil bit is that Negative Energy is inherently hostile to organic life. Not just that the Energy is toxic to the living, but that it's an actively destructive energy in regards to organic life.

Which is why so many Undead are Evil and actively aggressive towards the Living. The Negative Energy permeating their unliving flesh makes them hostile towards the Living. Most Undead, like Ghouls and Wights, are incapable of controlling their aggression, while more sophisticated and powerful Undead, like Vampires and Liches, can temper their aggression through various means.

Deathless, on the other hand, are charged with Positive, life-giving energy. Energy that isn't hostile to organic life, but actually beneficial to the living. This makes all the difference.
Joe Gold
11-03-03, 07:22 PM Positive energy permeates the flesh of the living, but that hasn't stopped us from being destructive. Demons, Devils, and Yugoloths are all created by positive energy. Wouldn't non-intelligent creatures like insects attack undead on sight? On a lesser scale than positive/negative, but I'd say fire and water elementals would be crazy if each declared war on the other because they were evil and inherently hostile.

More and more lately I've been thinking of positive and negative like matter and anti-matter. Matter can be both healthy(air) and unhealthy(arsenic). Anti-matter is just generally unhealthy if I want to live. Uncontained anti-matter isn't safe, but it isn't evil.

On a side note I can only think of one creature that constantly emits negative energy(Corpse Gatherer) and it is neutral.
Romulus LoneWolf
11-03-03, 07:41 PM Originally posted by Joe Gold
Positive energy permeates the flesh of the living, but that hasn't stopped us from being destructive. Demons, Devils, and Yugoloths are all created by positive energy. Wouldn't non-intelligent creatures like insects attack undead on sight? On a lesser scale than positive/negative, but I'd say fire and water elementals would be crazy if each declared war on the other because they were evil and inherently hostile.

More and more lately I've been thinking of positive and negative like matter and anti-matter. Matter can be both healthy(air) and unhealthy(arsenic). Anti-matter is just generally unhealthy if I want to live. Uncontained anti-matter isn't safe, but it isn't evil.

On a side note I can only think of one creature that constantly emits negative energy(Corpse Gatherer) and it is neutral.

No, no, I mean that Negative Energy itself is actively harmful to life, in that it and everything corrupted by it seeks to destroy living creatures. I never said anything of the like about Positive Energy and those creatures permeated with it.

And by that I mean creatures who're completly infused with it like Ravids and other Positive Elemental creatures, and not just normally living creatures like animals and insects, who would probable be targets of Undead creatures themselves in some fashion or form.
Joe Gold
11-03-03, 09:06 PM Originally posted by Romulus LoneWolf
No, no, I mean that Negative Energy itself is actively harmful to life, in that it and everything corrupted by it seeks to destroy living creatures. I never said anything of the like about Positive Energy and those creatures permeated with it.

Not everything living off of negative energy is an evil creature bent on the destruction of the living.

Let's see what is up with some of these creatures. Ghouls were cannibals. Mohrgs were unrepentant murderers. Bodaks were witness to absolute evil. Allips were insane suicide victims. Spectres apparently had violent deaths. Nope, no reason other than negative energy that these creatures are evil.

Shadows and Nightshades are both created partly of darkness and hate light and life. Is dark evil?
Joe Gold
11-03-03, 09:14 PM My point is, if Deathless are supposed to be good undead, then we already have a creature type for that.

Deathless is not needed and should go the way of the Beast.
MightyMightyThundarr
11-03-03, 09:55 PM No, no, no. Living beings are NOT suffused with positive energy (at least, most are not). Positive energy heals living beings because of the way it interacts with their biology, not because it "fills their tanks" or somesuch.
SSj3goblin
11-03-03, 10:16 PM Originally posted by MightyMightyThundarr
No, no, no. Living beings are NOT suffused with positive energy (at least, most are not). Positive energy heals living beings because of the way it interacts with their biology, not because it "fills their tanks" or somesuch.

IIRC living beings are powered by positive energy while undeads are powered by neg energy.... no mods statwise
Vaalingrade Ashland
11-03-03, 11:03 PM Originally posted by Joe Gold
My point is, if Deathless are supposed to be good undead, then we already have a creature type for that.

Deathless is not needed and should go the way of the Beast.

Couldn't agree more. the BoED bought a lot of things to Good that were just a complete cop out. Now it brings the hammer down on the 'all undead are evil' campaign they've been driving at since the BoVD came out.

What are to expect next? Inflicts spells getting the [evil] tag?
Incenjucar
11-04-03, 12:34 AM Deathless=Unliving.

That's it.

Positive energy instead of negative energy.

Mummies should be converted in to 'unliving' deathless, even.
Vaalingrade Ashland
11-04-03, 01:22 AM For everyone's information:

Eborron will introduce the create deathless spell (http://www.gamingreport.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Diner_Wrapper&file=index&req=ShowFile&file_wrap=html/eberron/FLIER.htm)
Arilou_skiff
11-04-03, 11:49 AM Originally posted by Vaalingrade Ashland
Couldn't agree more. the BoED bought a lot of things to Good that were just a complete cop out. Now it brings the hammer down on the 'all undead are evil' campaign they've been driving at since the BoVD came out.

What are to expect next? Inflicts spells getting the [evil] tag?

Exactly, Deathless should go the way of the dodo.
Vaalingrade Ashland
11-04-03, 03:37 PM Originally posted by Arilou_skiff
Exactly, Deathless should go the way of the dodo.

Devoured by Europeans?
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht
11-04-03, 04:12 PM Originally posted by Vaalingrade Ashland
Devoured by Europeans? :rofl:
was_fired
11-04-03, 05:25 PM Originally posted by Vaalingrade Ashland
Devoured by Europeans?

I thought they were killed more out of sport by the board, drunk, dutch sailors. Though if any speices can be completly wiped out by being clubed to death by a bunch of drunk guys I have to question its evolutionary validity.
Arilou_skiff
11-07-03, 11:17 AM Originally posted by was_fired
I thought they were killed more out of sport by the board, drunk, dutch sailors. Though if any speices can be completly wiped out by being clubed to death by a bunch of drunk guys I have to question its evolutionary validity.

That's my point, the Deathless doesen't deserve to "live"
Joe Gold
11-26-03, 10:01 PM Well, I finally got the chance to look at the description in the book. If I was going to include them in a game they would be a subtype of undead. There still does not seem to be nearly enough to make a seperate creature type.
Asta Kask
11-27-03, 06:24 AM Originally posted by Arilou_skiff
That's my point, the Deathless doesen't deserve to "live"

I'm not sure that the Deathless can be clubbed to death by a bunch of drunk guys, though. You need skeletons for that kind of massacre... :D
Deathless does have one big positive aspect - they explain how ghosts, etc., can exist in hallowed spaces without being constantly miffed. I think they make a decent addition to the game, but I wouldn't use them every day. For most unliving NPCs, undead is plenty good enough.
CelestialBarbarian
11-28-03, 04:43 AM Originally posted by Mike the DM
I haven't figure out if or how I'm going to integrate deathless into my campaign. I've long ruled that undeath comes from negative energy, and that at best undead can be neutral but never good. I'm going to have to think about this one some more...

Think of the deathless as something akin to what the First One did to bring back Captain John Sheridan after Sheridan died on Zahadum (sp?) in Babylon 5--a long-term yet limited return to life in order to fulfill a good destiny, unlike a raise dead/resurrection/true resurrection which returns the character indefinitely.
CelestialBarbarian
11-28-03, 04:53 AM Originally posted by Vaalingrade Ashland
Couldn't agree more. the BoED bought a lot of things to Good that were just a complete cop out. Now it brings the hammer down on the 'all undead are evil' campaign they've been driving at since the BoVD came out.

What are to expect next? Inflicts spells getting the [evil] tag?

In Monsters of Faerun they introduced good liches, creatures which sought or had forced upon then undeath to achieve a good goal (one probably taking more than a normal lifetime). I realize that the book predates BoVD, but it does suggest that not all the dead that live must be evil. I suspect that now they'd replace the good lich creature with a deathless creature.
CelestialBarbarian
11-28-03, 04:55 AM Originally posted by was_fired
I thought they were killed more out of sport by the board, drunk, dutch sailors. Though if any speices can be completly wiped out by being clubed to death by a bunch of drunk guys I have to question its evolutionary validity.

The Australian aboriginies hunted the dodo to extinction.
Joe Gold
11-28-03, 06:15 PM Changing existing undead creatures to deathless would do them a disservice, I don't see why only the villians can run.

IMO dividing dead things by alignment is stupid. If celestials and fiends, the exemplars of their alignments, can share a creature type, why not undead?
Vaalingrade Ashland
11-28-03, 06:30 PM Because they can't find a graceful way out of 'good' clerics being able to obliterate good creatures.

Incedentally, the undead = negative energy = evil thing has been made moot by the Draconomicon, which has a slew of negative energy spells w/out the evil tag and the identification of -- profane energy. :bow:
CelestialBarbarian
11-28-03, 07:12 PM Originally posted by Joe Gold
Changing existing undead creatures to deathless would do them a disservice, I don't see why only the villians can run.

IMO dividing dead things by alignment is stupid. If celestials and fiends, the exemplars of their alignments, can share a creature type, why not undead?

The deathless type has some differences from the undead type, differences that make a great deal of roleplaying sense:

Deathless can be affected by energy drain.
Deathless gain benefits from consecrate and hallow intead of their opposites, etc.
Evil clerics can't command deathless but can turn them; good clerics just the opposite.

There's one difference the reason for which I dont' find apparent: deathless can't run. What's that about? :)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Joe Gold 11-03-03, 12:50 AM	So what exactly is the Deathless type? I'd check the BoED myself, but I probably won't see a book store until Thanksgiving. From what I heard, it's the same as Undead except more sunshine and bunnies.
SSj3goblin 11-03-03, 08:21 AM	its about that. Deathless is new type who makes the assumption that all undeads are evil THROWS THE ARCHLICH FROM FR ON THE TABLE wich is dumb, but still the concept can be made to work. IMC i'll use it for divine good undeads, the crypt warden for BoED was a good example. IMHO
Count Arioch the 28th 11-03-03, 08:23 AM	Personally, I'd move the Archlich and Baelnorn to the Deathless type myself. That is, if I had Baelnorns inad Archliches in my campaignb world.
SSj3goblin 11-03-03, 08:25 AM	I maintain that good and neutral (skeletons & zombies) undeads should still be undeads unless theres a good (Flavor) reason to make them deathless.
MightyMightyThundarr 11-03-03, 08:28 AM	Well, considering the magic used to animate skeletons and zombies is inherently evil, I'd say that they'd be evil no matter what. Unless you have some wacky good-aligned death god who provides an alternate version of animate dead. I'd only give deathless type to a creature whose reason for rising from the grave was inherently good, Baelnorns being the primary example.
Count Arioch the 28th 11-03-03, 08:32 AM	Technically, by the rules, Zombies and Skeletons can't have an evil alignment at all. The MM says explicitly "They can take no initiative on their own" Which means, if you create a zombie or skeleton, and don't give it orders, it stands there motionless until you do. I'd hardly call that evil myself.
SSj3goblin 11-03-03, 08:34 AM	thats why i said neutral undeads too, maybe it was a bad example , deathless should be a rare type used only for "Exalted" undeads. how will YOU use them in your campaign
Count Arioch the 28th 11-03-03, 08:38 AM	Basically, I will use them for any type of good aligned undead. All neutral and evil undead will retain the undead type.
SSj3goblin 11-03-03, 08:41 AM	Well id gladly continue this conversation but i gotta go to school, but id like to continue the debate this evening (dont know what time it is where you are) but IMHO deathless is better for special holy undeads but i wont tell you how to dm. Or will i ? :smirk:
MightyMightyThundarr 11-03-03, 10:01 AM	Technically, by the rules, Zombies and Skeletons can't have an evil alignment at all. The 3.5 MM also lists them as "always neutral evil" ;) Since they are not self-willed, the only justification I can find for their being evil is that, since animate dead is an evil spell, skeletons and zombies are evil by virtue of the fact that they were animated by an evil spell. So even though the can't do evil on their own, their animating force is sufficiently evil to make anti-evil spells (holy smite, detect evil, etc) work against them. Kind of in the same way that creatures with the evil subtype who have changed their alignment are still affected by anti-evil spells.
Mike the DM 11-03-03, 12:33 PM	I haven't figure out if or how I'm going to integrate deathless into my campaign. I've long ruled that undeath comes from negative energy, and that at best undead can be neutral but never good. I'm going to have to think about this one some more...
Joe Gold 11-03-03, 04:45 PM	So... celestials and fiends are both Outsiders, but bad dead creatures are Undead and good dead creatures are Deathless. This seems to go with the BoED thinking of... Poison is bad, use a Ravage instead. Diseases are horrible, an Affliction is much better. Undead are evil monsters, associate with Deathless. Looks like the ends do justify the means if you use a;). Does the book have Deathless creation spells? Do they have the [good] tag? I was worried the BoED was going to say something like "no good character would stand the presence of an undead," this is almost worse.
MightyMightyThundarr 11-03-03, 05:25 PM	To its credit, no spells exist for creating a deathless. Its more of a "I have come back from the dead to right was was wrong!" thing, rather than a "rise from the grave! Oh, and be good" thing.
Incenjucar 11-03-03, 05:36 PM	I just consider them to be the long-rumored concept of positive energy undead, that so far have mostly been used by good folk, since so many undead are the result of spirits going insane.
bitnine 11-03-03, 05:43 PM	Originally posted by Count Arioch the 28th The MM says explicitly "They can take no initiative on their own" (Psst! It only says that "seriously, they are initiative-free constructs" bit in the skeleton template. Zombies it instead denotes a lack of any intelligence. Reading them first, I took their wisdom score {of 10} to show that they, in absense of commands, still follow basic reflexes and instincts. Actually, having read the zombie entry first, I assumed that it applied to both of them. As most other people, I imagine, read them alphabetically and saw the skeleton entry first.)
MightyMightyThundarr 11-03-03, 06:25 PM	Remember, everything that is not an object has a Wisdom score and a Charisma score. In the absence of Intelligence, Wisdom basically means "I am capable of perceiving things" and Charisma basically means "I am not merely part of the landscape". Both skeletons and zombies have a Wisdom score of 10. It doesn't mean that they have instincts to act on - it just means they don't take a penalty on Spot checks. Why is their Wisdom score higher than that of some sentient creatures? Because it is not clouded by attempts at intellectualizing the world around them ;)
Romulus LoneWolf 11-03-03, 06:46 PM	The way I see the Undead = Evil bit is that Negative Energy is inherently hostile to organic life. Not just that the Energy is toxic to the living, but that it's an actively destructive energy in regards to organic life. Which is why so many Undead are Evil and actively aggressive towards the Living. The Negative Energy permeating their unliving flesh makes them hostile towards the Living. Most Undead, like Ghouls and Wights, are incapable of controlling their aggression, while more sophisticated and powerful Undead, like Vampires and Liches, can temper their aggression through various means. Deathless, on the other hand, are charged with Positive, life-giving energy. Energy that isn't hostile to organic life, but actually beneficial to the living. This makes all the difference.
Joe Gold 11-03-03, 07:22 PM	Positive energy permeates the flesh of the living, but that hasn't stopped us from being destructive. Demons, Devils, and Yugoloths are all created by positive energy. Wouldn't non-intelligent creatures like insects attack undead on sight? On a lesser scale than positive/negative, but I'd say fire and water elementals would be crazy if each declared war on the other because they were evil and inherently hostile. More and more lately I've been thinking of positive and negative like matter and anti-matter. Matter can be both healthy(air) and unhealthy(arsenic). Anti-matter is just generally unhealthy if I want to live. Uncontained anti-matter isn't safe, but it isn't evil. On a side note I can only think of one creature that constantly emits negative energy(Corpse Gatherer) and it is neutral.
Romulus LoneWolf 11-03-03, 07:41 PM	Originally posted by Joe Gold Positive energy permeates the flesh of the living, but that hasn't stopped us from being destructive. Demons, Devils, and Yugoloths are all created by positive energy. Wouldn't non-intelligent creatures like insects attack undead on sight? On a lesser scale than positive/negative, but I'd say fire and water elementals would be crazy if each declared war on the other because they were evil and inherently hostile. More and more lately I've been thinking of positive and negative like matter and anti-matter. Matter can be both healthy(air) and unhealthy(arsenic). Anti-matter is just generally unhealthy if I want to live. Uncontained anti-matter isn't safe, but it isn't evil. On a side note I can only think of one creature that constantly emits negative energy(Corpse Gatherer) and it is neutral. No, no, I mean that Negative Energy itself is actively harmful to life, in that it and everything corrupted by it seeks to destroy living creatures. I never said anything of the like about Positive Energy and those creatures permeated with it. And by that I mean creatures who're completly infused with it like Ravids and other Positive Elemental creatures, and not just normally living creatures like animals and insects, who would probable be targets of Undead creatures themselves in some fashion or form.
Joe Gold 11-03-03, 09:06 PM	Originally posted by Romulus LoneWolf No, no, I mean that Negative Energy itself is actively harmful to life, in that it and everything corrupted by it seeks to destroy living creatures. I never said anything of the like about Positive Energy and those creatures permeated with it. Not everything living off of negative energy is an evil creature bent on the destruction of the living. Let's see what is up with some of these creatures. Ghouls were cannibals. Mohrgs were unrepentant murderers. Bodaks were witness to absolute evil. Allips were insane suicide victims. Spectres apparently had violent deaths. Nope, no reason other than negative energy that these creatures are evil. Shadows and Nightshades are both created partly of darkness and hate light and life. Is dark evil?
Joe Gold 11-03-03, 09:14 PM	My point is, if Deathless are supposed to be good undead, then we already have a creature type for that. Deathless is not needed and should go the way of the Beast.
MightyMightyThundarr 11-03-03, 09:55 PM	No, no, no. Living beings are NOT suffused with positive energy (at least, most are not). Positive energy heals living beings because of the way it interacts with their biology, not because it "fills their tanks" or somesuch.
SSj3goblin 11-03-03, 10:16 PM	Originally posted by MightyMightyThundarr No, no, no. Living beings are NOT suffused with positive energy (at least, most are not). Positive energy heals living beings because of the way it interacts with their biology, not because it "fills their tanks" or somesuch. IIRC living beings are powered by positive energy while undeads are powered by neg energy.... no mods statwise
Vaalingrade Ashland 11-03-03, 11:03 PM	Originally posted by Joe Gold My point is, if Deathless are supposed to be good undead, then we already have a creature type for that. Deathless is not needed and should go the way of the Beast. Couldn't agree more. the BoED bought a lot of things to Good that were just a complete cop out. Now it brings the hammer down on the 'all undead are evil' campaign they've been driving at since the BoVD came out. What are to expect next? Inflicts spells getting the [evil] tag?
Incenjucar 11-04-03, 12:34 AM	Deathless=Unliving. That's it. Positive energy instead of negative energy. Mummies should be converted in to 'unliving' deathless, even.
Vaalingrade Ashland 11-04-03, 01:22 AM	For everyone's information: Eborron will introduce the create deathless spell (http://www.gamingreport.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Diner_Wrapper&file=index&req=ShowFile&file_wrap=html/eberron/FLIER.htm)
Arilou_skiff 11-04-03, 11:49 AM	Originally posted by Vaalingrade Ashland Couldn't agree more. the BoED bought a lot of things to Good that were just a complete cop out. Now it brings the hammer down on the 'all undead are evil' campaign they've been driving at since the BoVD came out. What are to expect next? Inflicts spells getting the [evil] tag? Exactly, Deathless should go the way of the dodo.
Vaalingrade Ashland 11-04-03, 03:37 PM	Originally posted by Arilou_skiff Exactly, Deathless should go the way of the dodo. Devoured by Europeans?
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 11-04-03, 04:12 PM	Originally posted by Vaalingrade Ashland Devoured by Europeans? :rofl:
was_fired 11-04-03, 05:25 PM	Originally posted by Vaalingrade Ashland Devoured by Europeans? I thought they were killed more out of sport by the board, drunk, dutch sailors. Though if any speices can be completly wiped out by being clubed to death by a bunch of drunk guys I have to question its evolutionary validity.
Arilou_skiff 11-07-03, 11:17 AM	Originally posted by was_fired I thought they were killed more out of sport by the board, drunk, dutch sailors. Though if any speices can be completly wiped out by being clubed to death by a bunch of drunk guys I have to question its evolutionary validity. That's my point, the Deathless doesen't deserve to "live"
Joe Gold 11-26-03, 10:01 PM	Well, I finally got the chance to look at the description in the book. If I was going to include them in a game they would be a subtype of undead. There still does not seem to be nearly enough to make a seperate creature type.
Asta Kask 11-27-03, 06:24 AM	Originally posted by Arilou_skiff That's my point, the Deathless doesen't deserve to "live" I'm not sure that the Deathless can be clubbed to death by a bunch of drunk guys, though. You need skeletons for that kind of massacre... :D Deathless does have one big positive aspect - they explain how ghosts, etc., can exist in hallowed spaces without being constantly miffed. I think they make a decent addition to the game, but I wouldn't use them every day. For most unliving NPCs, undead is plenty good enough.
CelestialBarbarian 11-28-03, 04:43 AM	Originally posted by Mike the DM I haven't figure out if or how I'm going to integrate deathless into my campaign. I've long ruled that undeath comes from negative energy, and that at best undead can be neutral but never good. I'm going to have to think about this one some more... Think of the deathless as something akin to what the First One did to bring back Captain John Sheridan after Sheridan died on Zahadum (sp?) in Babylon 5--a long-term yet limited return to life in order to fulfill a good destiny, unlike a raise dead/resurrection/true resurrection which returns the character indefinitely.
CelestialBarbarian 11-28-03, 04:53 AM	Originally posted by Vaalingrade Ashland Couldn't agree more. the BoED bought a lot of things to Good that were just a complete cop out. Now it brings the hammer down on the 'all undead are evil' campaign they've been driving at since the BoVD came out. What are to expect next? Inflicts spells getting the [evil] tag? In Monsters of Faerun they introduced good liches, creatures which sought or had forced upon then undeath to achieve a good goal (one probably taking more than a normal lifetime). I realize that the book predates BoVD, but it does suggest that not all the dead that live must be evil. I suspect that now they'd replace the good lich creature with a deathless creature.
CelestialBarbarian 11-28-03, 04:55 AM	Originally posted by was_fired I thought they were killed more out of sport by the board, drunk, dutch sailors. Though if any speices can be completly wiped out by being clubed to death by a bunch of drunk guys I have to question its evolutionary validity. The Australian aboriginies hunted the dodo to extinction.
Joe Gold 11-28-03, 06:15 PM	Changing existing undead creatures to deathless would do them a disservice, I don't see why only the villians can run. IMO dividing dead things by alignment is stupid. If celestials and fiends, the exemplars of their alignments, can share a creature type, why not undead?
Vaalingrade Ashland 11-28-03, 06:30 PM	Because they can't find a graceful way out of 'good' clerics being able to obliterate good creatures. Incedentally, the undead = negative energy = evil thing has been made moot by the Draconomicon, which has a slew of negative energy spells w/out the evil tag and the identification of -- profane energy. :bow:
CelestialBarbarian 11-28-03, 07:12 PM	Originally posted by Joe Gold Changing existing undead creatures to deathless would do them a disservice, I don't see why only the villians can run. IMO dividing dead things by alignment is stupid. If celestials and fiends, the exemplars of their alignments, can share a creature type, why not undead? The deathless type has some differences from the undead type, differences that make a great deal of roleplaying sense: Deathless can be affected by energy drain. Deathless gain benefits from consecrate and hallow intead of their opposites, etc. Evil clerics can't command deathless but can turn them; good clerics just the opposite. There's one difference the reason for which I dont' find apparent: deathless can't run. What's that about? :)