Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Fi'Irdray 11-08-04, 03:27 AM	For an assignment for my public speaking class (persuasive speech), I'm planning on persuading the audience that D&D does not lead to the whole satanism thing portrayed by the media (especially in the 80's). Anyway, while I could do it simply with the knowledge I have, my professor says I need to have "valid" sources (magazine/newspaper articles, writings from "legitimate websites") to support my arguments. Anyone have any good ones I can use showing the positive aspects (already have 2 sources to show the stigma against D&D)?
Mister Mayhem 11-08-04, 03:56 AM	Very useful article: http://www.3rdedition.org/articles/viewer.asp?ID=67
Jackhammer John 11-08-04, 04:34 AM	For an assignment for my public speaking class (persuasive speech), I'm planning on persuading the audience that D&D does not lead to the whole satanism thing portrayed by the media (especially in the 80's). Anyway, while I could do it simply with the knowledge I have, my professor says I need to have "valid" sources (magazine/newspaper articles, writings from "legitimate websites") to support my arguments. Anyone have any good ones I can use showing the positive aspects (already have 2 sources to show the stigma against D&D)? Is that old rumor still around?
ImmortalBlueMage 11-08-04, 05:49 AM	Honestly, I don't know. I think the people who talk the most about DnD and devil worship are us here on the boards. It's been ages since anything new or recent came out in terms of attacks on the game (correct me if I'm wrong please). We really need to just let a dead issue fade away, on account of we're doing more to keep the myth alive than the opposition.
WizO_Catoblepas 11-08-04, 06:51 AM	>>HERE's ONE<< (http://members.aol.com/waltonwj/rpgpaper.htm) >>HERE's ANOTHER (http://www.buffaloatheists.com/role-playing/in-defense-dnd.htm)
Joni-san 11-08-04, 12:37 PM	Google "Mike Stackpole" or "Pulling Report" or go here (http://www.theescapist.com/) Man that page is usefull. And pretty notorious too :D
Fi'Irdray 11-08-04, 02:31 PM	Is that old rumor still around? Lutheran University
Draco Strang 11-08-04, 03:21 PM	I'm actually doing an article on the same thing for my honors english comp class. Since you already have the negative side well covered, try www.theescapist.com and try googling for tracky Hickman's defense of DnD, it's rather good. Oh, and gary Gygax's classic chair defense on 60 minutes (mentioned in Hickmans essay)
StormKnight 11-08-04, 03:46 PM	Sounds very tough. The problem with refuting an argument is that there has to be an argument there to begin with. How can you argue against something built out of nonsense and ravings?
Jackhammer John 11-08-04, 04:59 PM	Sounds very tough. The problem with refuting an argument is that there has to be an argument there to begin with. How can you argue against something built out of nonsense and ravings? This is what I am thinking as well. Outside of gaming circles, no one really remembers the "Great Witch Hunt for Gamers of the 80's and 90's." Including some of my more church going friends. I just don't think the debate is valid anymore. It would be like debating actual witch trials of Salem. It is historical, not a current debate topic. Perhaps a change in the thesis to "was" the debate of the harmful effects of rpgs in the 80's and 90's valid today? Or a retropect.
StormKnight 11-08-04, 05:39 PM	Anyway, while I could do it simply with the knowledge I have, my professor says I need to have "valid" sources (magazine/newspaper articles, writings from "legitimate websites") to support my arguments. Sorry if my earlier post was a bit unhelpful :) I do mean it though - I think you're real chore in an idea like this, is figuring out what the opposing viewpoint is. That may be where you want to look for sources - to understand the opposing argument, because you can't defend against it until you know what it is. And there, I think, lies the big problem. As far as I have been able to tell, there really isn't much an opposing argument. Just sort of "D&D is evil". No rationale, no logic, no facts. Maybe they are out there somewhere, though I suspect you will have to sort through the ravings of some pretty seriously messed up people to find them. Its like if I said "Prove to me that reading Shakespeare doesn't cause spontaneus combustion!". What in the world are you supposed to prove? Unless I give some sort of logic or evidence as to WHY Shakespeare causes spontaneus combustion, you can't really respond to it other than with a rightly deserved "that's ridiculous".
NehpetsTtocs 11-08-04, 06:58 PM	I for one, can believe that this stupid argument is still around. Anytime evangelical Christianity hits the media big, and it does every so often, some of the creepies come out and condemn everything from music to video games. Unfortunately, DnD has always been a favorite target. Especially if you've ever read anything by Jack Chic.
primemover003 11-08-04, 10:17 PM	Of course it's still around! Don't you remember the Harry Potter craze and all the book bannings that spawned off it? Hell I'm sure some nutcases may have held an old time book burning somewhere. Good words to remember about stuff like this...Witch Hunt... (http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/rush/witchhunt.html)
Kursk 11-08-04, 10:48 PM	Please prove that you aren't a KGB agent. You must have "valid" sources to support your argument. I'd ask the prof to prove that he wasn't nuts. Valid sources and all... :thinks:
Spaced 11-09-04, 08:56 AM	I for one, can believe that this stupid argument is still around. Anytime evangelical Christianity hits the media big, and it does every so often, some of the creepies come out and condemn everything from music to video games. Unfortunately, DnD has always been a favorite target. Especially if you've ever read anything by Jack Chic. Ahh the joys of not being american, I miss out on all these wonderfall things. The only negative reaction I've ever recieved on religious grounds was the vicar where I grew up. He saw what had happened to the various Greek gods in a supplement, went a very strange colour and lent us a wide selection of mythology books to read.
primemover003 11-09-04, 03:28 PM	Ahh the joys of not being american. Yep only in my great country are we bombarded with violence, violence, violence... then get shocked because of a "wardrobe malfunction." Moral majority... glad I'm in the minority!
NehpetsTtocs 11-09-04, 04:55 PM	Ahh the joys of not being american, I miss out on all these wonderfall things. The only negative reaction I've ever recieved on religious grounds was the vicar where I grew up. He saw what had happened to the various Greek gods in a supplement, went a very strange colour and lent us a wide selection of mythology books to read. I'm surprised we're not burning witches here, but give it a few years and Falwell will have the teletubbies on a spit.
benoneofseven 11-09-04, 07:14 PM	I thought I might be able to add something to this discussion. I am a D&D fan for the last 20+ years and I am also a Christian. I think there is still an anti-D&D core out there that is made up of conservative Christians. I think their beef comes from the use of the various dieties and demigods, from the practice of magic in the game (i.e. power that is not from God), and the inclusion of devils, demons, witches, and various other concepts that are easily associated with the Occult or satanism. For example, the Bible tells Jews, Muslims, and Christians not to worship other Gods. When a Christian D&D gamer has a cleric worshipping Pelor, there is the possibility that people might get upset. It is a complex issue, but the problem is with the religion interpreting the game. We live in a pluralistic society. There is plenty more in my head about this subject, but I will stop here unless someone is interested in commenting.
HomebrewedMonster 11-09-04, 07:22 PM	http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/role-playing See number 2. And then tell them to see number 1 to try and understand why it's fun to play and stop being ignorant.
Jackhammer John 11-09-04, 07:27 PM	Well, we can't escape the number of gods (notice the lowercase treatment), but God, Allah, Budda, etc all have unique histories that would seem out of place in the world of DnD, however, their ideals do not have to be. It is really up to the gamer. Wizard's made a smart move by moving certain elements of DnD into their "mature" line. Clearly labled and optional, the books exist for the gamers that want them and by being a separate entity they can easily remain apart from the main game. Smart move and a good compromise, without seemingly so. Unlike the half-orc situation in 2nd edition.
9mm of Mercy 11-09-04, 07:37 PM	It's someone's belief. You can't prove or disprove it. In some cases it has led to Devil-Worship just in some cases Everquest has caused Suicide. These are just extremes and anyone who decides to hold up one example as a set pattern for all else is plain retarded. The entire argument either way is pretty much moot. It CAN lead to Devil worship but it is in no way a requisite for enjoying the game. Also, back to the original question. D&D is a fun time-waster and not much else. Any of the positive results of the game are pretty much purely coincidental and can be gained at a higher threshold much faster through many other means.
Rekuji 11-10-04, 11:19 AM	...but give it a few years and Falwell will have the teletubbies on a spit. Is this really such a bad thing? Those little buggers are creepy...
PaladinTook 11-11-04, 02:43 AM	I to am a christian and I have no problems playing D&D. Yet I know people (including my dad :/ ) who think D&D will make my soul rot forever. It's a game to have fun, hang out with my friends and relax after working all week, I am not gonna change my faith and go kill 20 people. It's about as good as the media trying to blame murders on violent video games.
Kaya Kenobi 11-11-04, 03:08 AM	wow... these religion threads again, at least it has remained civil so far.. ;) Anyways, if you want to defend DnD, you better use things that also oppose it and prove how their reasonings are unfounded.. The primary defense is mental stability, as people who have issues usually tend to go to the wayside and that's when problems occur.
Ph33r_the_Wheelchair 11-11-04, 05:39 AM	One thing you probably ought to do is define exactly what anti-DnD position you are arguing against. They all basically stem from Christian fundamentalists, but there are a few fairly different positions, each with a varying level of insanity. The first, and least crazy argument is the basic, "DnD leads people away from God." This isn't so much an argument against DnD as an argument against anything non-Christian. The second position is the one stemming largely from sensationalist media, that is the irrational belief that DnD makes kids do drugs and kill people. This is probably the easiest to refute, as any links between DnD and antisocial behavior are tenuous at best. It's the same problem today with the media's vilification of video gaming. It's all garbage. The last (that I can think of) and most insane position is the one held by Jack T. Chick and the uber-Christian fundamentalist crowd. Basically, this argument goes something like, "Playing DnD causes you to become possessed by demons that will make you do horrible things against your will." There's really no way to argue against this one, except to say, "Sure." Add some eye-rolling for effect.
Arquinsiel 11-11-04, 08:00 AM	In some cases it has led to Devil-Worship just in some cases Everquest has caused Suicide. I'm sure it has in some cases. This comment reminded me of something my girlfriend said once: It's like saying d&d leads to devil worship because eating mars bars leads to drug abuse. After all, most stoners have had mars bars..... And air! God no, not my AIR! anything but that......
UZI 11-11-04, 09:04 AM	There's nothing in the core rules that requires a player (out of character) from worshipping any deity or other outsider from within the game. When my cleric of pelor casts a cure light wounds spell in the game, I (the player) am not required to swear allegiance to pelor and the holy icosahedron. You're probably better off proving the "Monopoly(tm)" leads to enterprise corruption, "Mousetrap(tm)" leads to cruelty to animals, or "Risk(tm)" leads to rampaging hordes of people trying to capture the Yukon Territory.
Nurgan_the_drunked 11-11-04, 10:41 AM	Ph33r_the_Wheelchair:One thing you probably ought to do is define exactly what anti-DnD position you are arguing against. They all basically stem from Christian fundamentalists, but there are a few fairly different positions, each with a varying level of insanity. The first, and least crazy argument is the basic, "DnD leads people away from God." This isn't so much an argument against DnD as an argument against anything non-Christian. The second position is the one stemming largely from sensationalist media, that is the irrational belief that DnD makes kids do drugs and kill people. This is probably the easiest to refute, as any links between DnD and antisocial behavior are tenuous at best. It's the same problem today with the media's vilification of video gaming. It's all garbage. The other argument, which has a better founding, is the amount of time money & effort that players can put into it can become an unhealthy obsession, damaging other parts of their life. This is not a religious one, and can be seen from other angles. This can be seen very often in people who play the game. What arguments do people have against that? Nurgan the Devil's advocate
LukiLoki 11-11-04, 02:22 PM	I've been surprised at the prevalence of threads on this subject generally and their popularity (witness the 5+ page "My Mom walked in on me..." thread and several other recent true stories of religious oppression). I am old enough to remember the outcry of the eighties, the movie with T.Hanks (but no thanks), the "Against D&D" "...ADD" Acronym group, what was it?, and all that madness. It was serious stuff, almost put TSR out of business, and caused the designers of 2ed AD&D to eschew all reference to "Demons" and "Devils" by name. Surprised, because I had thought it had long ago blown over and the wing-nuts of the religious wrong had found spookier phantoms under their beds to mouth off about, but, based on the experience of posters here, and the interest the subject generates, 'tis not so, alas. So I got to thinking about it last night and I think I have an angle on it that I haven't seen anybody bring up. What this has become, people, is folklore. The patently false suicide stories, persistant long after the hysteria and negative media attention have died down, are nothing more than urban legends. And that got me thinking about folklore in general, and why its stories attach themselves to particular people or activities, and this is what I think it is: Basically, when small groups of people, perceived to be of higher than average intelligence, get together and engage in "anti-social" activities (compared, say, to going to the football game on Friday night), the masses get nervous. "What are they doing in there?" "Fairies and Elves? That's weird!" etc. etc. Stories crop up, witch-hunts are organized. It's really about social control and the "average person's" anxieties about those who seem to be able to thrive without the constant reassurance of the herd. In this analysis, it actually has very little to do with the content of the game or anybody's religious beliefs being threatened. I guess this could be dismissed as self-serving, since I am claiming in essence, "you just hate us because we're smarter than you", but... Sorry, a lot of us ARE smarter than you. And pretty much all of us really don't care what "society" thinks about what we do with our imaginations behind closed doors. And so I'm claiming for us a kinship with other oppressed groups of the past and present, branded as "deviant" by a society that is actively against independent thought and excercise of the imagination. In fact, to really throw a stick in the craw of the fundamentalists out there, I'll go ahead and include the early Christians in our extended family of oppressed free-thinkers. The defense rests.
NehpetsTtocs 11-12-04, 04:36 AM	:ayyyy!: :ayyyy!: I've been surprised at the prevalence of threads on this subject generally and their popularity (witness the 5+ page "My Mom walked in on me..." thread and several other recent true stories of religious oppression). I am old enough to remember the outcry of the eighties, the movie with T.Hanks (but no thanks), the "Against D&D" "...ADD" Acronym group, what was it?, and all that madness. It was serious stuff, almost put TSR out of business, and caused the designers of 2ed AD&D to eschew all reference to "Demons" and "Devils" by name. Surprised, because I had thought it had long ago blown over and the wing-nuts of the religious wrong had found spookier phantoms under their beds to mouth off about, but, based on the experience of posters here, and the interest the subject generates, 'tis not so, alas. So I got to thinking about it last night and I think I have an angle on it that I haven't seen anybody bring up. What this has become, people, is folklore. The patently false suicide stories, persistant long after the hysteria and negative media attention have died down, are nothing more than urban legends. And that got me thinking about folklore in general, and why its stories attach themselves to particular people or activities, and this is what I think it is: Basically, when small groups of people, perceived to be of higher than average intelligence, get together and engage in "anti-social" activities (compared, say, to going to the football game on Friday night), the masses get nervous. "What are they doing in there?" "Fairies and Elves? That's weird!" etc. etc. Stories crop up, witch-hunts are organized. It's really about social control and the "average person's" anxieties about those who seem to be able to thrive without the constant reassurance of the herd. In this analysis, it actually has very little to do with the content of the game or anybody's religious beliefs being threatened. I guess this could be dismissed as self-serving, since I am claiming in essence, "you just hate us because we're smarter than you", but... Sorry, a lot of us ARE smarter than you. And pretty much all of us really don't care what "society" thinks about what we do with our imaginations behind closed doors. And so I'm claiming for us a kinship with other oppressed groups of the past and present, branded as "deviant" by a society that is actively against independent thought and excercise of the imagination. In fact, to really throw a stick in the craw of the fundamentalists out there, I'll go ahead and include the early Christians in our extended family of oppressed free-thinkers. The defense rests.
Neerie 11-12-04, 09:47 AM	The other argument, which has a better founding, is the amount of time money & effort that players can put into it can become an unhealthy obsession, damaging other parts of their life. This is not a religious one, and can be seen from other angles. This can be seen very often in people who play the game. What arguments do people have against that? Nurgan the Devil's advocate Well a good argument would be that this sort of behavior is not confined to D&D alone. There are those who will spend a lot of money in videogames, and if they just put D&D and videogamers in the same bag, you can add that some people spend hundreds of dollars in fitness programs that they drop out after a few weeks, people spend hundreds of dollars on sporting equipment, people spend THOUSANDS of dollars in modifying sports car just for the look of it, train modelers spend in average $150 per square feet of train layout. Everything has a cost, and people shuold be glad that their kids spend money in a hobby than spend the same amount in drugs.