Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tasmar 05-24-06, 11:31 AM	Hello, I am a Senior in High School just about ready to graduate and for my final paper for my writing class I am required to write a persuasive research essay. I was really bored of any other topic I could come up and suddenly thought up of all the 'hate' and misunderstanding towards dungeons and dragons. Such as people calling Dnd devil worshiping or causing murders. I decided to write a paper researching these claims and debunking them as false. What I am asking is, due to my lack of playing a lot of dnd, for people to provide examples of how those crazy people are wrong about dnd. I'm required a certain amount of outside information and I thought the Wizards boards would be a perfect source to get real player's perspective. Heck, if you want to add to the Dungeon and Dragon is immoral argument go right ahead. Just to note by replying it gives me permission to use your quotation in my paper, I'll quote it towards your user name unless you imply you want me to use your real name. If I wasn't clear on my intent just ask. Any help would be awesome and blow my teacher out of the water.
Azezel 05-24-06, 11:51 AM	First off, 'debuffin' is something a Wizard does when he casts Ray of Enfeeblement - you mean 'debunking' Nevermind. For my art, I had heard that there had been very little negative feeling toward RPG's since the end of the eighties. If that is not the case then forgive my ignorance. As I see it, most of the anti-RPG arguments stem from religious sources. Some amongst the faithful equate gaming with demonic comerce. If you will excuse my saying so, those of us in more, er, enlightened (read atheistic) countries find such religiously motivated uproar a bit comical. I suspect that one could found a strong case against the anti-gaming fraternity by pointing out that anti-game feelings are, for the most part limited only to your own nation, and to a small if vocal minority of your citizenship. WizO's - I'm aware that the above probably sails quite close to the CoC winds, but I'm just trying to help the chap out... I didn't mention you-know-who.
Tasmar 05-24-06, 12:03 PM	First off, 'debuffin' is something a Wizard does when he casts Ray of Enfeeblement - you mean 'debunking' Nevermind. For my art, I had heard that there had been very little negative feeling toward RPG's since the end of the eighties. If that is not the case then forgive my ignorance. As I see it, most of the anti-RPG arguments stem from religious sources. Some amongst the faithful equate gaming with demonic comerce. If you will excuse my saying so, those of us in more, er, enlightened (read atheistic) countries find such religiously motivated uproar a bit comical. I suspect that one could found a strong case against the anti-gaming fraternity by pointing out that anti-game feelings are, for the most part limited only to your own nation, and to a small if vocal minority of your citizenship. WizO's - I'm aware that the above probably sails quite close to the CoC winds, but I'm just trying to help the chap out... I didn't mention you-know-who. I do realize that the whole anit-dnd thing has died down a bit, but in my experience its still met with a negative response. I'm looking for stuff like roleplaying games are good for you because... something beyond it's a hobby, maybe it increases imagination. I don't want to say too much because I am looking for the board membership's response. Or something like people are anti-roleplaying games because they promote killing, but in my experience it promotes supporting valor and being good and such. Am I treading the line towards Coc, because if I am I apologize and I'll stop the thread. and PS i did fix the wording you mentioned, I couldn't think of the word and debuffing came to mind and technically it does work in a way.
Tuah 05-24-06, 12:10 PM	In World of Warcraft, somebody let somebody borrow an expensive magic item, which he sold. The original owner literally came to the guy's house and killed the person he lent it to. In D&D, if your friend steals your magic item, and sells it, you can still get it back, and kick the player out of the game if nessicary.
Thorf 05-24-06, 12:15 PM	Here are some links that may be of interest to you. The Pulling Report, by Michael Stackpole (http://www.rpg.net/sites/252/quellen/stackpole/pulling_report.html) - the report which arguably put the final nail in the coffin of anti-D&D groups. Wikipedia entry for Patricia Pulling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patricia_Pulling) - the founder of BADD. Wikipedia entry for Fiends (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiend_(Dungeons_&_Dragons)) - including some comments on the changes of nomenclature due to anti-D&D pressure groups. GameSpy Mike Stackpole Interview (http://pc.gamespy.com/articles/539/539635p1.html) - interview with Mike Stackpole. 101 Anti-RPG Sites (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=39542) - thread over at Enworld. The Old Days (http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=5655&page=1&pp=10) - thread discussing roleplaying memories of the 80s over at Steve Jackson Games.
hmmmm 05-24-06, 12:25 PM	In World of Warcraft, somebody let somebody borrow an expensive magic item, which he sold. The original owner literally came to the guy's house and killed the person he lent it to. See those people have some real problems before they started playing that game, and they should not be tainting the name of dnd with there other problems.
Toran_A_Sunder 05-24-06, 12:27 PM	I love these kinds of things... There are a multitude of reasons for DnD being beneficial to its players, and in probably some smaller, more subtle ways, towards the community. For starters, Dungeons and Dragons does something that so many other hobbies dont. It truly forces you to think. The constant problem solving we, as players, deal with is as much, if not more, of a mental excercise than heavy reading. Through dealing with intricate traps, overcoming seemingly unbeatable odds, and even dealing with "social" situations, DnD truly helps the players to grow. It encourages something most TV shows, movies, and video games dont: education. Learning. Growing. Certainly there are a few of the aforementioned hobbies that encourage that, but on the whole and for the most part, it requires little thinking to sit in front of a TV and watch something play out. It's completely different to be instrumental in the outcome of a scenario. Probably the most beneficial, and clearly realized, aspect is the excercise your imagination gets, which is something else TV, movies, etc. do little more than stunt the growth thereof. Figuring out whole identities for the characters, fleshing out an entire culture, world, or what-have-you, stretches our mental muscles on a regular basis. Also, one thing DnD has helped do is keep kids off the streets and away from drugs. Do some players use or drink? Of course. But it is a wide and vast majority of players who rarely, if ever, indulge in these vices. That is one of those things that benefits the players, as well as the community. Few can truly argue that less drug abuse is a bad thing, for everyone. Dungeons and Dragons encourage teamwork, fairplay, honesty, fun, excitement, adventure; all things that are healthy and conducive to developing a well adjusted, overall outlook on life. While it is true that not all players benefit from these things, the same can be said of people whose hobbies include cars, sports, music, and anything else. It's a common misconception that DnD players are reclusive, clinically depressed, psychotics. While we have them among our numbers, they are everywhere. These people choose the game, the game doesnt create these people. They had their issues well before DnD was created and well before they played. The religious right finds an easy scapegoat in DnD because of its long held social stigma, and in some cases they are the cause of it. As we all know, DnD does not encourage devil worship or evil. If anything, it encourages the exact opposite. It encourages good actions, helping others, heroics, a desire to save the world from each all-consuming, world-threatening-evil since the last. And in this particular case it is hardly my humble opinion. The fact that the overwhelming majority of players choose to play a good alignment is proof of this statement. Do characters in DnD worship Jehova, Jesus, Allah, or whatever? More often than not, no. But nowhere in any book (published by WotC at least) does it make the gross claim that these beings do not exist, or that they do not merit worship, or that we should turn against them. Those are the claims of paranoid, ignorant men and women who believe anything outside their own faith is inherently evil. In closing, is DnD for everyone? No. No more than football, motorcycles, or the cello is for everyone. DnD is a passtime that, more than anything, demands the players learn and grow in their mental faculties so they may face harder and harder challenges. Perhaps its just me, but I know my experiences with DnD have helped me grow into the man I am today. In some cases, DnD does more than teach us how to defeat more and more monsters; Dungeons and Dragons teaches us all a little bit more about ourselves. (sorry to the WiZos if I broke any rules with this statement)
hmmmm 05-24-06, 01:15 PM	Very well put. :clap:
Stumm_Dolch 05-24-06, 01:27 PM	I think the best thing about D&D and other role playing games is that it fosters an appreciation for group and social dynamcs. Through prolonged interaction with table-top games people become accustomed to problem solving situations while working with others. Also providing an environment for social interaction potentially strengthening a persons' outward personality. Also, asking someone to respond to stimuli while "in character" forces them to look at situations from alternate points of view which may open new personal outlooks and lead to better "big-picture" observational skills.
Silverthumb128 05-24-06, 01:50 PM	In World of Warcraft, somebody let somebody borrow an expensive magic item, which he sold. The original owner literally came to the guy's house and killed the person he lent it to. I've heard about that, do you have a link to the actual story? In my experience with the game, you can't trade a "magic item" if its equipped. Its given a status called "Soulbound," and you can't trade it back. Several items later in the game become Soulbound even on picking it up, so an initial trade is impossible then. So I'm curious as to how this worked out, it sounds kinda made-up to me. And, yes, I am going somewhere with this. :P
Grand Theft Otto 05-24-06, 01:51 PM	If you want people to treat D&D as a normal hobby, stop doing dorky papers on it. Seriously, every other week some misfit is doing a study of gamers for their class project. Instead, be a normal, functioning, emotionally mature person. Get outside. Work out a few times a week. Learn to carry a conversation without mentioning THACO or the tarrasque. Stop correcting people's grammar mid sentence, and ditch the elitist attitude so many gamers carry. FFS guys, pretending to be an elf isnt superior to being on the football team, so stop acting like we're rocket surgeons. You wanna talk about mastering group dynamics? Play a team sport, its a hell of a lot more mentally engaging than you give it credit for. Oh, and its REAL. If you're being picked on, its not because you role play, its because of how you carry yourself and interact with others. The problem with the hobby isnt the game, its the gamers. I spent a summer working in a furniture manufacturing sweatshop that smelled better than your average convention. The anti-rpg religious stance is so incredibly outdated its a joke. If any significant number of people in your area ACTUALLY think that way, I'm wondering how far you had to drive to get online and post this. Gamers just like to think a sizable portion of Christians feel that way because it fits their persecuted martyr complex. You wanna write a decent paper on gaming? Do a google search for "cat **** man" and try to debunk that. 20 years of gaming, and its so spot on its not even funny.
Gryllmyre 05-24-06, 01:53 PM	It really comes down to what people choose to do with what the game has to offer. DnD on its own does not encourage murder or devil worship, nor does it force players or DMs to immerse themselves in the subjects in order to play (seeking out and doing away with raiding bands of goblins does not constitute murder - that is heroic defense of the nearby villages, even if the town guard is asking for help and your group volunteers). Video games, however, can cause a hypnotic repetition that can really suck people in, so I'm not surprised about what happened with the WoW players mentioned above. That is not to say that players and DMs can't specifically choose to dive into devil worship and murder. Entire campaigns and character careers could very well be centered on them. I wouldn't doubt at all that some players take a certain satisfaction out of murdering and raping NPC's, etc. and summoning demons to do their bidding and paying homage to lower plane lords. But that's a player choice, and is a small percentage of the player base. It can be a very visible and noticable percentage if you look in the right places, but that doesn't make it the majority, or even the standard. That said, even players that play good and heroic characters can get so far into the game that it adversely affects what they do in life. Again, it comes down to player choice and their ability to keep game activities in the game and not let it cause harm in their lives. We've even heard stories of "normal-life" church-going, God-loving people that in their confusion or whatever else, violently murdered their own families because they believed they were told to. I won't debate the truth of that. I'm just saying any aspect of life could lead people to do harm. DnD doesn't directly encourage it any more than anything else. From my own perspective, I enjoy the tactical element of the game and seeing how class combinations work together. I don't go home from my sessions believing that what I accomplished in the game makes me a better or more powerful person than what the world says I am or gives me an opportunity to be. I don't need any more to do in life what I do in the game, or vice versa. DnD is meant to be a game - a fun, learning, and fulfilling experience.
Stumm_Dolch 05-24-06, 02:58 PM	[QUOTE=Grand Theft Otto] FFS guys, pretending to be an elf isnt superior to being on the football team, so stop acting like we're rocket surgeons. You wanna talk about mastering group dynamics? Play a team sport, its a hell of a lot more mentally engaging than you give it credit for. Oh, and its REAL.[QUOTE] That's exactly right. I wouldn't have passed up my 14 years on soccer or baseball teams for the same time sitting at a table with a gaming group for anything. But not everyone is interested in playing sports. Doesn't mean they are anti-social. Fantasy Roleplaying is a great alternative for interacting with others. NOT a great alternative for going outside and getting some exercise.
LCD2YOU 05-24-06, 03:14 PM	I play because the chicks really dig it. My 13 and 15 year old daughters that is.
ZybthRanger314 05-24-06, 03:19 PM	Here's the couple of things I found when I quickly looked for stuff last night that you wanted. Religious Anti-D&D Sites: And here are two things I had copied down from sigs that would relate to your stuff: Warning: Dabbling in the Occult can get you mixed up with role-playing! The average suicide rate in America is 12 per 100,000 people. The average suicide rate for priests is 7.5 per 100,000 people. The average suicide rate of people who play D&D is .172 per 100,000. On a side note; you all can see how effective Tasmar is as a look-out. He is the sorcerer in the short story in my sig.
DoctorRomulus 05-24-06, 03:20 PM	Most of what you've said I agree with with a bit of an exception in that not all "right wing" religous types spend their time coming down on DnD. It's a small minority and those have another agenda closer to our mundane existence then concern for your soul. Namely, cha-ching!! M O N E Y!! And lets face it, shock and scandal sells!! Aside from that I've had my experience with gamers who were reallly out there and would make anyone believe they worshipped the Devil! I mean if you didn't know about D&D and saw one of the creeps I've met with a PHB you might be prone to believe such stories. And then I've met real freaks who take the game too far and in some cases actually believe they can use the DnD Spells! What can I say. It was NYC! "The freaks come out at night, the freaks come out at niiiiihgt!" :D I love these kinds of things... There are a multitude of reasons for DnD being beneficial to its players, and in probably some smaller, more subtle ways, towards the community. For starters, Dungeons and Dragons does something that so many other hobbies dont. It truly forces you to think. The constant problem solving we, as players, deal with is as much, if not more, of a mental excercise than heavy reading. Through dealing with intricate traps, overcoming seemingly unbeatable odds, and even dealing with "social" situations, DnD truly helps the players to grow. It encourages something most TV shows, movies, and video games dont: education. Learning. Growing. Certainly there are a few of the aforementioned hobbies that encourage that, but on the whole and for the most part, it requires little thinking to sit in front of a TV and watch something play out. It's completely different to be instrumental in the outcome of a scenario. Probably the most beneficial, and clearly realized, aspect is the excercise your imagination gets, which is something else TV, movies, etc. do little more than stunt the growth thereof. Figuring out whole identities for the characters, fleshing out an entire culture, world, or what-have-you, stretches our mental muscles on a regular basis. Also, one thing DnD has helped do is keep kids off the streets and away from drugs. Do some players use or drink? Of course. But it is a wide and vast majority of players who rarely, if ever, indulge in these vices. That is one of those things that benefits the players, as well as the community. Few can truly argue that less drug abuse is a bad thing, for everyone. Dungeons and Dragons encourage teamwork, fairplay, honesty, fun, excitement, adventure; all things that are healthy and conducive to developing a well adjusted, overall outlook on life. While it is true that not all players benefit from these things, the same can be said of people whose hobbies include cars, sports, music, and anything else. It's a common misconception that DnD players are reclusive, clinically depressed, psychotics. While we have them among our numbers, they are everywhere. These people choose the game, the game doesnt create these people. They had their issues well before DnD was created and well before they played. The religious right finds an easy scapegoat in DnD because of its long held social stigma, and in some cases they are the cause of it. As we all know, DnD does not encourage devil worship or evil. If anything, it encourages the exact opposite. It encourages good actions, helping others, heroics, a desire to save the world from each all-consuming, world-threatening-evil since the last. And in this particular case it is hardly my humble opinion. The fact that the overwhelming majority of players choose to play a good alignment is proof of this statement. Do characters in DnD worship Jehova, Jesus, Allah, or whatever? More often than not, no. But nowhere in any book (published by WotC at least) does it make the gross claim that these beings do not exist, or that they do not merit worship, or that we should turn against them. Those are the claims of paranoid, ignorant men and women who believe anything outside their own faith is inherently evil. In closing, is DnD for everyone? No. No more than football, motorcycles, or the cello is for everyone. DnD is a passtime that, more than anything, demands the players learn and grow in their mental faculties so they may face harder and harder challenges. Perhaps its just me, but I know my experiences with DnD have helped me grow into the man I am today. In some cases, DnD does more than teach us how to defeat more and more monsters; Dungeons and Dragons teaches us all a little bit more about ourselves. (sorry to the WiZos if I broke any rules with this statement)
Dusk_Nailo 05-24-06, 05:10 PM	Ok for an example you could give I was looking up cheats for KOTOR 2. Then while I was scrolling down I found a religious site talking about people actually having jedi as their religion. Theres even a Jedi Academy(Yes I am going somewhere with this) that teaches proper use of a lightsaber. How is this not as bad as playing a board game. Several books tell you how to preform several rituals for different gods and godesses but, I've never gone down to my local Church of Boccob(there isn't one) and done one. D&D describes these rituals in detail(whereas Starwars doesn't) and I dont see a Temple of Vecna anywhere. In closing, why not snipe at Starwars?
Tasmar 05-24-06, 05:32 PM	Ok for an example you could give I was looking up cheats for KOTOR 2. Then while I was scrolling down I found a religious site talking about people actually having jedi as their religion. Theres even a Jedi Academy(Yes I am going somewhere with this) that teaches proper use of a lightsaber. How is this not as bad as playing a board game. Several books tell you how to preform several rituals for different gods and godesses but, I've never gone down to my local Church of Boccob(there isn't one) and done one. D&D describes these rituals in detail(whereas Starwars doesn't) and I dont see a Temple of Vecna anywhere. In closing, why not snipe at Starwars? because Star Wars doesn't involve magic which relates to the occult and witchcraft, both have been condemned by some Christians. This is great guys keep it coming. and to Grand Theft Otto either you're giving the opposing opinion to Dnd or baiting/trolling. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and say opposing opinion, but I'd watch. Not because I would retaliate, but I just want to do a paper for my Composition class. If I had a choice I wouldn't do the paper at all, but that would kill my GPA.
Elf_Jedi 05-24-06, 05:39 PM	Ok for an example you could give I was looking up cheats for KOTOR 2. Then while I was scrolling down I found a religious site talking about people actually having jedi as their religion. Theres even a Jedi Academy(Yes I am going somewhere with this) that teaches proper use of a lightsaber. How is this not as bad as playing a board game. Several books tell you how to preform several rituals for different gods and godesses but, I've never gone down to my local Church of Boccob(there isn't one) and done one. D&D describes these rituals in detail(whereas Starwars doesn't) and I dont see a Temple of Vecna anywhere. In closing, why not snipe at Starwars? They don't take shots at Star Wars because it's too big. DnD is small fish compared to SW. They take on who they think they can take on. Just becuase they're wrong doesn't mean there stupid. And another thing those same religious figures who lambaste DnD were the same ones Praising the Narnia movie. Like there wasn't any magic in that movie. And those people are the same people telling you to burn rock CD's. You shouldn't pay those people any attention,at all. Bottom line: Once again the minority ruins it for both sides. The 'Freak' DnD players make us all look bad. And the crazed religious figures makes the majority of they're less radical brethern look bad.
Nialo 05-24-06, 06:02 PM	They don't take shots at Star Wars because it's too big. DnD is small fish compared to SW. They take on who they think they can take on. Just becuase they're wrong doesn't mean there stupid. People don't take shots at Star Wars because it's a part of American pop culture, not because it's "too big." There are six movies about star wars, and a ton of merchandise. It's been a part of mainstream culture for thirty some odd years. D&D on the otherhand isn't advertised and not many people are intimate with the game. The only time I ever hear D&D mentioned on TV, is when it's on the list of hobbies of a kid who brought a gun to school. And the way a lot of D&D geeks carry themselves doesn't help either. And another thing those same religious figures who lambaste DnD were the same ones Praising the Narnia movie. Like there wasn't any magic in that movie. And those people are the same people telling you to burn rock CD's. You shouldn't pay those people any attention,at all. The Chronicles of Narnia has a lot of underlying Christian themes.
Snarkbone 05-24-06, 06:06 PM	Education is the best way to get through to the ignorant, for this reason the following educational video was created. So you want to lean about D&D (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7521044027821122670)
purpledragon 05-24-06, 06:32 PM	My take on this issue is that the people who come down on any paper and pencil role playing game have probably never sat through an entire session of said game. I started reading the chick.com article and was thinking "this holy roller has really done his research". Until, that is, he started talking about how the game manuals give clues as to how to take items from the other players' characters and how the best way to avoid damage is to beat the other one senseless. Then I thought WTF?? At that point I realized he had just read some of the books. He'd never played the game. I beileve that those who bash the game have never actually seen the game played from beginning to end. I think that anyone who is going to bash some other idea/product/whatever, they should at least try it first. I don't mean just make up the character. I mean play or at least sit through the playing of an entire mini-campaign.
DwarvinJedi 05-24-06, 07:01 PM	People don't take shots at Star Wars because it's a part of American pop culture, not because it's "too big." There are six movies about star wars, and a ton of merchandise. It's been a part of mainstream culture for thirty some odd years. Well, first off, it is 29 years tomorrow since the first Star Wars moive was released to theaters. Just wanted to say that(since I am spending tomorrow watching all 6 movies, hey, today was my last school day until August) And, I will say that my playing D&D has never struck any religious figure as bad. I will not say that D&D improves intelligence or creativity(the latter might be true), it just attracts people that have these traits. I can see D&D as being beneficial to young children, because I see a rapid decline in creativity(and intelligence, how the heck can students in Honor Pre-Calculus/Trig need a calculator for 560-346), and D&D is steeped in mathematics and dramatics. (I gotta stop here, Jeopardy calls)
High Octane 05-24-06, 07:07 PM	There hasnt been a real attack on D&D for probably over 15 years. The old attacks were made by people before the game was well understood and other forms of fantasy took form. When mainstream fantasy like Final Fantasy, Dragon Warrior, Warcraft and other swords and sorcery type of media came around, D&D no longer seemed so weird and exotic. In another sense also the games weird and "satanic" looks were pretty much overshadowed by other, far more offensive media that was much more widespread. Dark rockers like Kiss, Rob Zombie, Marylyn Manson, all are a lot more flamboyant and offensive to the Christians. The mainstream media also supports free thought and tends to take a dim view of Christian zealots, so these people didnt tend to stay in the media very long. Those few that still take offense to the game are the older and more conservative bible thumpers. Those haughty types are phasing out in the world and more tolerance and openmindedness is taking form within the churches. Not too long ago, maybe 30 years, Christians burned records and dubbed rock and roll evil. Now how often do you hear the term Christian Rock? Those few that cling to the idea are either completely insane, or can easily be sated when the game itself is explained in even minimum detail.
Edymnion 05-24-06, 07:34 PM	Jesus saves, the rest of you take full damage.
Kresalak 05-24-06, 08:46 PM	Jesus saves, the rest of you take full damage. The joke is funnier if you change it to "the rest of you take half damage".
princeofcincinnati 05-24-06, 08:57 PM	Hello, I am a Senior in High School just about ready to graduate and for my final paper for my writing class I am required to write a persuasive research essay. I was really bored of any other topic I could come up and suddenly thought up of all the 'hate' and misunderstanding towards dungeons and dragons. Such as people calling Dnd devil worshiping or causing murders. I decided to write a paper researching these claims and debunking them as false. What I am asking is, due to my lack of playing a lot of dnd, for people to provide examples of how those crazy people are wrong about dnd. I'm required a certain amount of outside information and I thought the Wizards boards would be a perfect source to get real player's perspective. Heck, if you want to add to the Dungeon and Dragon is immoral argument go right ahead. Just to note by replying it gives me permission to use your quotation in my paper, I'll quote it towards your user name unless you imply you want me to use your real name. If I wasn't clear on my intent just ask. Any help would be awesome and blow my teacher out of the water. I think you are going at it all wrong. Dont talk about D&D, but the argument that (fill in the blank) causes you to kill, whatever. This is the key. Look who makes these claims not just about D&D, but video games,movies , books etc. It's usally the same people preying on parents who want to protect their kids.
rijeagle 05-24-06, 09:38 PM	*snip* The average suicide rate of people who play D&D is .172 per 100,000. *snip* And how many of these were already mentally unstable, on drugs, drunk, or all of the above? My guess would be - probably all of them. At the very least, you would need to be mentally unstable to committ suicide to begin with... *edit - as to positives: D&D introduced me to Lord of the Rings, twenty-some-odd-years ago, which got me into reading, and now I read nearly 30-40 books a year. My brother was awful in math, thanks to D&D, he is much better. Thanks to D&D, I've got a couple of the best friends anyone could ask for, we met 19 years ago, and we are still friends. We all have families, are successful in life and career, and live stable, solid lives. I can safely say it has added to my life, not taken from it.
ORC_Paradox 05-24-06, 09:50 PM	Yeah, you're probably better off writing about something more.... current or mainstream. Yes, D&D might be considered mainstream but as pointed out, all of the attacks are OLD. It's like writing a paper supporting the repeal of the Prohibition amendment. It's time to stop giving these old arguments and nut cases the attention they crave. Move along, people. Nothing more to see.
Solaris 05-24-06, 09:56 PM	The joke is funnier if you change it to "the rest of you take half damage". No, the joke is broken if you change it to that. Jesus saves (and therefore only takes half damage); everyone else takes full damage. It's the successful saving throw which lets you take only half damage.
Grand Theft Otto 05-25-06, 11:13 AM	Dark rockers like Kiss, Rob Zombie, Marylyn Manson, all are a lot more flamboyant and offensive to the Christians. OK mods, can we squelch stupid comments like this? Seriously, I realize in your little zit filled world you need an enemy to make your sad life feel important, but most christians just wish you'd brush your teeth, and could give a rats ass what music you listen to. If his stupid blanket comments were "the jews did this" or "the blacks did this" it would be outta here so fast.
DoctorRomulus 05-25-06, 01:18 PM	OK mods, can we squelch stupid comments like this? Seriously, I realize in your little zit filled world you need an enemy to make your sad life feel important, but most christians just wish you'd brush your teeth, and could give a rats ass what music you listen to. If his stupid blanket comments were "the jews did this" or "the blacks did this" it would be outta here so fast. I agree, I myself have gotten a little tired of the "evil" christian/bible-thumper blanket statements. And the funniest part is that many times they're made by people supposedly defending blanket statements about something they're into. As Jesus said,"Do unto others as you would have done unto you".
WeZil 05-25-06, 01:59 PM	OK mods, can we squelch stupid comments like this? Seriously, I realize in your little zit filled world you need an enemy to make your sad life feel important, but most christians just wish you'd brush your teeth, and could give a rats ass what music you listen to. If his stupid blanket comments were "the jews did this" or "the blacks did this" it would be outta here so fast. Lord knows how many times I've walked into a D&D, anime, or any general fantasy club to have somebody say "Christians" in a sarcastic voice and roll their eyes. Alright, thats a bit of an exaggeration, but you know what I'm getting at. But Otto is entirely right. Most Christians of any demoniation (read: >95%) do not think that D&D is this terrible, satanic thing that should be abollished and actively say so. Most of them probobly don't give two hoots. Many might think its weird and not get it, or be uninterested in it, but hey, that's just people. personally, I do see the attraction to Baseball. I think it's a terribly boring sport in the face of football and soccer. I"m not going to rail people for it. Most people aren't going to rail people for their hobbies. However, when certain D&Ders look at that small, tiny, miniscule fration of a percentile of Christians and decide that all people of religion are out to get them and campaign back, then christians will start to look at us unfavorably. Please stop acting like Religion is out to get you, people.
Cardinal Teplin 05-25-06, 02:02 PM	I've had problems with Chrisitan fundamentalists.... I don't mean I heard about some, or read about some. Me, personally. And for the record, the Fundamentalists involved had tried roleplaying games for a decent time (about a month and a half). The reason for the opposition is pretty obvious, if you think about it. Many of the components of AD&D are Christian in origin. Clerics are modelled on medieval christian churchmen, including holy water, warding off evil spirits and the dead (turn undead), the ol' restrictions on edged weapons, and half the spells on the cleric list. Holy word, for example, is based at least in part on the myths of the tetragrammatron, from Christian folklore. Then there are the monsters. Demons and devils and oh my. But not just that. The various names of the Devil given throughout history are all represented as NPCs vastly more powerful than most player characters. Hell is mapped, with geographical features based on christian writers throughout history, and it's not a place you want to mess with. Then there are pagan deities. The first few editions used real genuine gods from various historical cultures, presented them as real and powerful individuals, and gave role-playing tips on how to play a worshipper of one. I could go on, but the point is that, if you're looking for a 'shock' of recognition, then there is plenty to choose from. This takes us to two distinct potential problems. The first is contamination. If you take the view that people, particularly teenagers, are inherently vulnerable and influenceable, then mere contact with all this 'dubious' material is as obvious a hazard as playing with petrol, going to a heavy metal concert, etc. This kind of viewpoint is very popular with people who feel that they are obviously correct in a view which isn't shared by most of the world population, such as fundamentalists. The second is influence. Playing AD&D encourages the view that power is the way to defeat evil, and that knowing about evil (or at least the monster statblocks and capabilities) is the best way to defeat them. It also encourages the view that good and evil are largely equivalent in power, and defined largely by opposition to eachother. This runs directly contrary to Christian doctrine, and is a fairly threatening set of beliefs. Most people would find the second idea a little more palatable than the first, but they both stem from essentially the same root. That people are not capable of safely navigating their own way in the world without help and guidance. That they need help, not only to avoid dangerous things and people, but to avoid dangerous ideas. And this is where the real crux of it comes. There isn't anything solid or actual in a roleplaying game. The only problem is one of ideas. The oppposition to roleplaying comes from the belief that certain ideas, certain ways of looking at the world, are inherently dangerous, and must be prevented from spreading. Don't be too harsh on the fundamentalists for falling into the trap. A lot of politicians do this, as do some leading scientists, and a great many ordinary people. But it is a trap. Ultimatly you have to decide if you want to cower in fear of ever hearing a contrary point of view, or whether you want to know what is out there. If it's the former, then yes, AD&D is and remains a bad and corrupting influence. If the later, then roleplaying a different person, in a different situation, in a different world, is going to make you all the better at understanding how other people think, and ultimately, understanding how you think. That's what it comes down to. Either ideas are harmless, or they aren't. It's not as easy a sell as I'd like to think. ...
Cardinal Teplin 05-25-06, 02:14 PM	Please stop acting like Religion is out to get you, people. Absolutely. The number of religious people I've met who have a problem with my hobbies are very very small. However, I have noticed a difference. When roleplayers start making crass generalisations about the religious, they often get corrected by other roleplayers. When Fundamentalists start making crass generalisations about roleplayers, they don't tend to get corrected by other Christians. THAT does worry me. Roleplayers often get characterised as odd, geeky, and so on. (see earlier post about convention goers who do not wash themselves). These have a kernal of truth to them, because in general these are not standards we enforce on eachother. For better or for worse (I think better) that's how it is, so on a certain level, we are deserving of the approbations thrown at us. Similarly, Christians often get portrayed as intolerant and ignorant of the ways of others. These accusations also have a kernal of truth to them, because in general, we do not consider tolerence and understanding to be standards we can enforce on other members of our faith. For better or for worse (I think better) that's how it is, so on a certain level, we are deserving of the approbations thrown at us. Chrisitians, as a group, are intolerent and ignorant in the same way that roleplayers, as a group, are geeky and unhygenic. In that it's not true of most, but true of enough to give the rest a bad name, and the rest don't do much to stop them. I'm sure some people out there will have problems with this categorisation, but I suspect the real problem is in categorising any group based on the stereotypes of a few extreme individuals.
High Octane 05-25-06, 03:03 PM	You are certainly misreading what I was writing about. At no point did I intentionally blanket statement Christianity as a whole. My intended target was not "Christians" but "Ultra-conservative intolerant Christians". I dont hate religious people. Most of them are tolerant and good people. I was talking about the people who use religion as an outlet for their hatred and intolerance. I was talking about the ones that are likely to object to a D&D game, which arent the nice ones, the tolerant ones. Its the ones that give the nice ones a bad name.
Elf_Jedi 05-25-06, 09:02 PM	I've said it once and I'll say it again. It comes down to the minorities on both sides ruining it for the majorities on both sides. The crazy Christian make all of the sensible ones look bad. All the freaks who have a PHB make the rest of us look bad. Besides, DnD is what you, the DM and PC, make it. Sure it can be about Satan and magic. But, if you have some kind of personal conviction about the magic and the Satanic asepect you can cut that stuff out.
Snarkbone 05-25-06, 09:16 PM	The edu video I posted back on the first page, has a nice segment of a strict faithful christian family, whose son is LARP'ing a druid at home. You guys should watch that, it'll help you relax, you need it, bad. You managed to have a D&D vs Christian Fundamentalist discussion without any Christian Fundamentalists present or quoted opinions of such.
Elf_Jedi 05-25-06, 09:46 PM	The edu video I posted back on the first page, has a nice segment of a strict faithful christian family, whose son is LARP'ing a druid at home. You guys should watch that, it'll help you relax, you need it, bad. It does take the edge off...so does this...A re-enactment (http://newgrounds.com/portal/view/90046) You managed to have a D&D vs Christian Fundamentalist discussion without any Christian Fundamentalists present or quoted opinions of such. As for this we have this lunacy (http://newgrounds.com/portal/view/90046).
High Octane 05-26-06, 12:13 AM	Throwing my opinion into this thread again, leaning away from the religious discussion, I would like to talk about the suicide issue of D&D. Apparantly some people did or do believe the game causes or contributes to suicide. Lets analyze what D&D is. Its a group of people who gather together in a somewhat low pressure environment with other people of a similar mindset working together towards a goal allowing creative liscence and output. Its obviously a mentally healthy activity. I personally can state that I had suicide notions before I started playing, and within a few months of playing I stopped overall.
Bert The Troll 05-26-06, 01:57 AM	Dark rockers like Kiss, Rob Zombie, Marylyn Manson, all are a lot more flamboyant and offensive to the Christians. OK mods, can we squelch stupid comments like this? Seriously, I realize in your little zit filled world you need an enemy to make your sad life feel important, but most christians just wish you'd brush your teeth, and could give a rats ass what music you listen to. If his stupid blanket comments were "the jews did this" or "the blacks did this" it would be outta here so fast. You seem more out of line with calling someone's comments stupid. Not to mention your ad hominem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem) attacks (zit filled world? Sad life? Why would you feel that's okay to say?) Your analogy of comparing the blanket comments is also flawed. If someone said that 'music like that is more offensive to blacks' is very different to saying blaming blacks for doing something. Even today, when discussing Hexatombs demise, from players of D&D/DDM I saw comments like "I like fantasy settings and even enjoy battling demons and devils in RPGs, but being an evil soul stealing harbinger of the end of the world is too much" & "Much too dark however. Bordering on evil, which is not what I want to spend my money on". I`m glad the christian sects around you don't jump on the band wagon for dooming D&D as evil. But your head is in the sand if you don't think this attitude persists. Identifying that some christain sects, including mainstream ones, have issues with the 'sin content' of D&D is not the same as stating religion is out to get you. Look at the signifcant amounts of protest about more popular 'satantic' things like lord of the rings, and Harry Potter. One sample from christiananswers.net, a very mainstream website shows this: But in the Potter series, the line is not so clear. The "good" guys practice "white magic", while the bad guys practice the "Dark Arts". Readers become fascinated with the magic used (explained in remarkable detail). Yet God is clear in Scripture that any practice of magic is an "abomination" to him. God doesn't distinguish between "white" and "dark" magic since they both originate from the same source. "There shall not be found among you anyone who ...practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. For all who do these things are an abomination to the LORD, and because of these abominations the LORD your God drives them out from before you. You shall be blameless before the LORD your God. For these nations which you will dispossess listened to soothsayers and diviners; but as for you, the LORD your God has not appointed such for you." Deut. 18:10-14 Furthermore, if one were to use the reasoning that such objectionable material can be included in fantasy literature, then "that line of reasoning would tell you that you could include in fantasy any violence, pornography, whatever you wanted, and still defend those books by that very same statement." [11] IMO the lack of visible protest against D&D is more due to lack of popularity not because it has now been deemed acceptable.
buddy4031 05-26-06, 02:11 AM	funny thing, i'm also doing a persuasive essay. :P Anyways, i don't think DnD is the cause of all these violant mishaps. DnD is just a game of pencil and paper. if i were to blame any of these events towards games, i would blame violant video games, such as doom. these give a more realistic fealing instead of imagination. well that's what i think and i'm sticking to it.
Snarkbone 05-26-06, 10:59 AM	@Bert The Troll: Now that last quote is weired, why do they oppose magic? Bible itself asserts existance of magic and proves superiority of our Lord over it (the whole Jesus vs 3 Mages story). Thus claim that magic is anti christian is contradictory to Bible's treatment of it, which asserts that roughly "magic exits, and it's benign". But then again Catholic church and it's sects do seem to raise devil to the status of Anti-God (i.e. somone capable of competing with God), which is also strange to me as an Orthodox christian.
AkaKageWarrior 05-26-06, 11:22 AM	:confused: Are you talking about D&D ? it's a game !!! a complex game, and a good one. so good, that it is actually addictive! AAAARRRGGGHHH! here we have the negative side of it! The other bad part of it: I smoke too much when playing. But so would I when I would be in a pub/bar/party instead. And when playing D&D the beer is much cheaper, cause we can bring our own! :D just my european 2 €-cents, AKW
Morrowner 05-26-06, 12:50 PM	The person who has given me the most crap about role-playing? My mom. She's a hardcore Lutheran and thinks everything is demonic even though a good half of Dungeons and Dragons is killing demons. It is far more accepted than it used to be though, and the people who are overly critical of it(I'm wondering if I can say this without my head getting mauled) are ignorant fundy a holes who are wrong about things far more important than D & D.
SavevsStupidity 05-26-06, 02:00 PM	This is soooo 1983. In a world of terrorism, gay marriage, and rampant internet porn, when was the last time church groups really gave a damn about an RPG?
DmofAlterak 05-26-06, 03:50 PM	See those people have some real problems before they started playing that game, and they should not be tainting the name of dnd with there other problems. Hi Hmmm! I can't speak for everyone but personally I think D&D is a great game and dose not need to have any bad stuff whatsoever to have fun playing it.
Wyvern76 05-26-06, 04:04 PM	OK mods, can we squelch stupid comments like this? Seriously, I realize in your little zit filled world you need an enemy to make your sad life feel important, but most christians just wish you'd brush your teeth, and could give a rats ass what music you listen to.I don't think it was a stupid comment. I'm a Christian, and I find Marilyn Manson offensive. (Not that I've actually listened to his music -- I don't care for heavy metal anyway -- but I've seen examples of his lyrics.) OTOH, I don't appreciate the generalization that Christians who disapprove of D&D are "completely insane". I don't share their opinion, of course, but I understand why D&D makes them uncomfortable, and I respect their right to feel that way. Cardinal Taplin hit the nail on the head -- it's mainly about the fact that D&D involves casting spells and worshiping "pagan gods". Yes, they know it's not real, but they don't approve of even pretending to do "sinful" things. I actually tend to agree with that position to some extent, but I make the distinction that in the fictional game setting, magic and so forth aren't sinful. And yes, it *is* a bit inconsistent to accept the Chronicles of Narnia but not D&D (or Harry Potter), but there *are* differences in the way magic is portrayed in the different sources. And for the record, some Christians I've known do have concerns about the New-Ageish themes in Star Wars. Again, while I don't share their concerns, I understand them. The fact that some people have actually adopted Jedi philosophy as their "religion" *should* give you pause if you believe that Truth lies elsewhere. Anyone who doesn't believe that ideas have power is in serious denial and should take a look at the billion-dollar advertising industry. Or the political correctness movement. Or George Orwell. Or Adolf Hitler. Winston Churchill. Osama bin Laden. Mahatma Gandhi. Martin Luther King Jr. Confucius. Jean-Paul Sartre. Karl Marx. The French Revolution. The American Revolution.... need I go on? When I comes to D&D, there are three key questions: a) Are the ideas expressed in D&D harmful or not? b) Do I have faith that the truth of my beliefs can stand up to being challenged? c) Are my children mature enough to distinguish true ideas from false ones? The answers to these questions will vary from one person to another... and that's OK. One man's meat is another man's poison. Btw, I wrote a paper on the misconceptions about D&D myself for a college English comp. course about 10 years ago. If you're interested in seeing it, email me (wyvern76-at-hotmail-dot-com) and I'll send you a copy. Wyvern
Wyvern76 05-26-06, 05:22 PM	Now that last quote is weired, why do they oppose magic? Bible itself asserts existance of magic and proves superiority of our Lord over it (the whole Jesus vs 3 Mages story). Thus claim that magic is anti christian is contradictory to Bible's treatment of it, which asserts that roughly "magic exits, and it's benign". But then again Catholic church and it's sects do seem to raise devil to the status of Anti-God (i.e. somone capable of competing with God), which is also strange to me as an Orthodox christian.:confused: Jesus vs. the 3 Mages? Where'd that come from? Not any Bible I've ever seen! As for why Christians oppose magic, Deut. 18:10-14 (which Bert quoted above) pretty much sums it up. I could also throw in Exodus 22:18, " "Do not allow a sorceress to live." (NIV) That certainly doesn't sound to me like it's considered benign! In my experience, the usual Christian explanation for *why* God forbids magic is that it involves trafficking with evil spirits and/or it's an attempt to usurp God's power and authority. Which I happen to agree with, when it comes to real-life magic -- but as I said before, I can accept the premise that in a fictional fantasy setting, these objections don't apply (unlike, say, objections against murder). As for your comments on the "educational" video -- first off, those weren't his parents, they were his brother and sister-in-law. Secondly, I hope you don't think that gleefully telling someone he's going to Hell, or saying "It's OK, it's just a phase," exemplify good Christian attitudes. (For that matter, I hope you weren't serious in suggesting that video as a good way to "educate" non-gamers.) I can laugh it off because it's just a joke (albeit in poor taste), but if I thought that they were really saying that "All Christians are like this", I'd be pretty offended. Wyvern
DwarvinJedi 05-26-06, 05:50 PM	:confused: Jesus vs. the 3 Mages? Where'd that come from? Not any Bible I've ever seen! As for why Christians oppose magic, Deut. 18:10-14 (which Bert quoted above) pretty much sums it up. I could also throw in Exodus 22:18, " "Do not allow a sorceress to live." (NIV) That certainly doesn't sound to me like it's considered benign! In my experience, the usual Christian explanation for *why* God forbids magic is that it involves trafficking with evil spirits and/or it's an attempt to usurp God's power and authority. Which I happen to agree with, when it comes to real-life magic -- but as I said before, I can accept the premise that in a fictional fantasy setting, these objections don't apply (unlike, say, objections against murder). Wyvern Yeah, I was wondering about that story myself, I think he may be referring to Moses(& Aaron) vs Pharoh's mages(the whole turning staves to snakes story) Just for the record I am a religious person(mostly Lutheran), although I keep a very open-mind when it comes to religious matters(and one of the 2 majors I want to persue in college is Theology, of all religions, not just Christianity, the other major being History)
Gedrin 05-26-06, 06:10 PM	Full release motion picture, even if it stunk... ...with an oscar winner in a lead roll... ...with a Sci-fi sequel. Jack Chick hasn't drawn anything about D&D in 20 years. Tom Hanks doesn't include Mazes and Monsters in his filmography. There's a Christian Gamer's Guild. The PHB is advertised on TV... ...in prime time. You can buy Stormreach at Wal-Mart... ...and WoW, a FRPG MMO, has 6 million subscribers (thats tens of millions of dollars a month). Lord of the Rings Trillogy... MADD is defunct, and has been for a decade... ...the lady that founded MADD is DEAD. Get over it. Your not being persecuted. I hate to break it to you, but you won.
Toran_A_Sunder 05-26-06, 06:11 PM	Aren't we getting kind of off topic? If I'm not mistaken, the OP was asking for more positive examples of DnD in our lives and the world. Is the attitude of some fundamentalists (not just christian fundamentalists) still negative towards DnD? Sure. Is DnD on the road to being blatantly and largely attacked by these people, again? Of course not. They've moved on, just as the people who claimed DnD leads kids to suicide. The vast majority of us players from 1st and 2nd ed. apparently survived, so that kind of disproves that theory. Drop it. I have to say, without naming names, that the attitude of some of the people who have posted under this thread has been just as negative and offensive. Perhaps the issue is outdated and rather a moot point so many years later, but that doesn't merit such nasty and insulting comments to people who are discussing a point. If I were in the class with the OP, hearing him deliver some of the quotes postedon this thread, I wouldn't want to be a part of DnD either. Why? Because the minority, the few of us throwing such cruel and insulting comments at eachother catches much more attention than those of us giving positive responces. Just something for some of you to think about. Why dont we help the kid out and give him some more positive feedback so he gets a good grade and doesnt throw us all in a nasty light? Just a thought.
a_psh 05-27-06, 02:54 AM	D&D isn't extraordinarily creative when you compare it to, say, writing a story. D&D builds social skills, but mostly on a very basic level - the sort of thing that society expects you to have mastered by the time you're 14-15 anyway. D&D expands your vocabulary, but 99% of that is game definitions and weird fantasy words. D&D requires less strategy and, for large segments of play (combat when it's not your turn), less attention than many mainstream computer, video, or board games. D&D most certainly doesn't do anything to enhance your problem-solving skills, aside from those most directly related to rules-lawyering and a very narrow subclass of optimization problems. It doesn't have to. You don't go to a Friday night movie with your friends because it'll make you smarter. You don't play <insert current FPS Flavor of the Month> to improve your reflexes. You don't play Settlers to stay off of drugs. It's called a "game" for a reason: its one true purpose is to entertain. Honestly, I love this game to death, but take any claims of real, tangible benefits derived from playing D&D with a collosal grain of salt. (At best, you could say that D&D doesn't foster negative habits, unlike teenage couch-potato-ism or recreational drug use. Huge positive effects, other than a little bit more overall happiness? Nope.)
Molitor 05-27-06, 04:17 AM	If you are looking for more ammo, or possibly just an entertaining read, check out my name sake here........... http://logosresourcepages.org/Occult/dnd-ovr.htm It's good for a chuckle.
General_Ridley 05-27-06, 11:12 AM	No, the joke is broken if you change it to that. Jesus saves (and therefore only takes half damage); everyone else takes full damage. It's the successful saving throw which lets you take only half damage. Jesus has improved evasion, duh. he takes no damage.
Solaris 05-27-06, 06:34 PM	Jesus has improved evasion, duh. he takes no damage. That joke's been around since first edition, or earlier, and there was no improved evasion then. Besides, it's implied by "Jesus saves! The rest of you..." or "Jesus saves! Everyone else..." that everyone else didn't save. Also, an old variant is "Jesus saves... and only takes half damage."
Foozlesprite 05-27-06, 09:36 PM	At school, 3 of the people at my lunch table play D&D currently (including me), and another has played before. The only other female at the table, a "good Christian," snubs us, or (worse) attacks us whenever we try to talk about our campaign, saying that D&D is Satanic. However, she herself is no angel. One of my friends has loved her for at least 5 years. She keeps playing with his heart, going back and forth from her fiance to him. Not only is she emotionally violent, but she bites and bruises him on a regular basis, and not in an entirely friendly manner. My point is, nobody's perfect. Those who criticize D&D on the basis of the suicides, etc. overlook the fact that D&D is only one aspect of the victims' lives. Many who criticize D&D are merely uninformed people who, given a chance, might actually enjoy the game themselves. The main objection to D&D I hear is that it's un-Christian because there is no single "God" or that there are demons and devils. I have a few things to say to that: not everyone is Christian, the DM has the option to allow the Christian God in the campaign, and demons/devils are part of Christian beliefs. I used to be reclusive. D&D has brought me together with caring, funny people and given me something to do after homework. I got an ACT English score of 35, and Reading of 34, however, I've learned several new words due to D&D. To all of you naysayers: don't bash without knowing your facts. Statistics are almost always warped and/or inaccurate.
kelvinaw273 05-27-06, 09:49 PM	I would direct the OP to look into the Satanic Panic (a google search should pick up loads of hits) of the eighties. This wasn't just about D&D, but a lot of other issues - the occult, alternative religions and child abuse were all tied together by certain groups, with 'evidence' provided by Recovered Memory Syndrome (RMS). The entire thing fell apart at the end of the eighties to a complete and total lack of any tangible evidence, but it did a lot of damage in the meantime.
General_Ridley 05-27-06, 11:11 PM	That joke's been around since first edition, or earlier, and there was no improved evasion then. Besides, it's implied by "Jesus saves! The rest of you..." or "Jesus saves! Everyone else..." that everyone else didn't save. Also, an old variant is "Jesus saves... and only takes half damage." I know it's been around since then, and yes I know that. but if you were to stat Jesus out in 3.5, he'd have Imp. Evasion.
Solaris 05-27-06, 11:12 PM	So? What's your point? Is it that you think a joke which worked perfectly well in all editions is somehow improved by changing the punchline so that it only makes sense in a 3E context, and even then only with a counterintuitive assumption about who else saved and a bunch of other assumptions about Improved Evasion and which feats Jesus would have in 3E? Jesus saves... and so does everyone else, but since Jesus has improved evasion and they don't, they all take half damage. Ha! Ha! Good one. Whatever. :rolleyes:
a_psh 05-27-06, 11:32 PM	I would direct the OP to look into the Satanic Panic (a google search should pick up loads of hits) of the eighties.Another term for it is the SRA (Satanic Ritual Abuse) moral panic. If you're actually going to be writing about it, though, you'd be hard-pressed to find anything that isn't 20 years old or just someone half-heartedly rehashing something 20 years old before going to targets other than D&D.
Bert The Troll 05-28-06, 08:43 PM	@Bert The Troll: Now that last quote is weired, why do they oppose magic? Bible itself asserts existance of magic and proves superiority of our Lord over it (the whole Jesus vs 3 Mages story). Thus claim that magic is anti christian is contradictory to Bible's treatment of it, which asserts that roughly "magic exits, and it's benign". But then again Catholic church and it's sects do seem to raise devil to the status of Anti-God (i.e. somone capable of competing with God), which is also strange to me as an Orthodox christian. I agree that the bible imo states that magic exists, and that God in the bible in superior to it. That doesn't equate to magic being regarded as benign in the bible. I don't understand the catholic sidetrack, and in my experience I have had less disapproval from catholics that those protestants that regard the bible as inerrant and have strong viewpoints about D&D/ Fantasy game playing with Magic themes. I Ths. 5:22 "Abstain from all appearance of evil is another scripture used to discourage fantasy with magic themes. It isn't difficult to show scripture that is anti-gaming, or anti magic themes. <snips> OTOH, I don't appreciate the generalization that Christians who disapprove of D&D are "completely insane". To be clear about what I mean, in no way I meant to imply that my opinion is that all. most or even a sizable % of christians disapprove of D&D, magic themes in fantasy, or are insane. I don't share their opinion, of course, but I understand why D&D makes them uncomfortable, and I respect their right to feel that way. As long as they respect my right to enjoy watching Lord of the Rings, of Da vinci code or what not, I have no issue to their sometimes vocal objections. <snip> And yes, it *is* a bit inconsistent to accept the Chronicles of Narnia but not D&D (or Harry Potter), but there *are* differences in the way magic is portrayed in the different sources. Any group as large and varied as christianity imo is bound to have discrepancies in what is considered moral, and isn't an indicator that it is all wrong, or all bad, or all fundyextreme. <snip> When I comes to D&D, there are three key questions: a) Are the ideas expressed in D&D harmful or not? b) Do I have faith that the truth of my beliefs can stand up to being challenged? c) Are my children mature enough to distinguish true ideas from false ones? The answers to these questions will vary from one person to another... and that's OK. One man's meat is another man's poison. I agree with your three points, and think tolerance would be increased if all spoke so :) I have and do find christians that disagree that you should leave it up to each person, and it is those regulators of others I dislike. Full release motion picture, even if it stunk... ...with an oscar winner in a lead roll... ...with a Sci-fi sequel. Jack Chick hasn't drawn anything about D&D in 20 years. Tom Hanks doesn't include Mazes and Monsters in his filmography. There's a Christian Gamer's Guild. The PHB is advertised on TV... ...in prime time. You can buy Stormreach at Wal-Mart... ...and WoW, a FRPG MMO, has 6 million subscribers (thats tens of millions of dollars a month). Lord of the Rings Trillogy... MADD is defunct, and has been for a decade... ...the lady that founded MADD is DEAD. Get over it. Your not being persecuted. I hate to break it to you, but you won. Persecuted? While not directed to me, I am trying to make clear that there is a difference between persecution and continuing disapproval from some christian sects. As I said in earlier post, I believe the main reason for that lack of 'persecution' isn't because the Christan groups now approval of fantasy elements in games like D&D, but becasue there are bigger fantasy and magic themed targets to go after. There may be christian gamer groups, there are also christian homosexual groups, and christian gay hate groups. In the large variety of christian beliefs, you can often find a supporting and dissenting side across the road. Dark Dungeons may be copy righted in 1984 (oh the irony) but is still be sold and/or printed for use today. Jack Chick has written many other tracts since then that deal with the elements of magic in fantasy being satanic. He really seems to dislike Harry Potter more now, but consider this: Today shelves in major bookstores literally groan under the weight of various of books on Wicca, for example. Some of these books, like TEEN WITCH, are written for young readers. There is even a DUMMIES GUIDE TO WICCA AND WITCHCRAFT!! When D&D started, you could perhaps find four or five books on Wicca in print. Now, obviously not all of this can be laid at the door of D&D. But in the 1970's, it was one of the major cultural phenomena that planted the seeds that have sprouted into Harry Potter and all the occult books and movies. From "Should a Christian play D&D by by William Schnoebelen 2001 : Interesting that your examples are in common with Jack Chick's ;) (Certainly not implying your beliefs are!). Is there wide spread persecution for D&D, no. Some people still burning books, yes. Players being told by thier church not to play it, yes. Can hardly blame Hanks for not including M&M in his filmography Aren't we getting kind of off topic? If I'm not mistaken, the OP was asking for more positive examples of DnD in our lives and the world. Is the attitude of [I]some fundamentalists (not just christian fundamentalists) still negative towards DnD? Sure. Is DnD on the road to being blatantly and largely attacked by these people, again? Of course not. They've moved on, just as the people who claimed DnD leads kids to suicide. The vast majority of us players from 1st and 2nd ed. apparently survived, so that kind of disproves that theory. Drop it. Though I mostly agree with all your points, I will add that we (as gamers) shouldn't be overly complacent. My opinion is it's only a matter of time before D&D and other FRPG gets the 'brimstone' treatment again. And I guess it irks me that some christian groups activity prevent people making thier choices to play D&D or watch Harry Potter, or the like. /rant
ORC_Paradox 05-28-06, 09:25 PM	Eh, okay. 1. We don't allow religious discussions/flame wars on the boards. 2. I've had to delete That Link a number of times now. 3. D&D does NOT need to be defended. It's trying to fight a battle that's been won for decades now. Their arguments against D&D don't hold as they're attacking 1st edition, not the current edition.