Definition of "ally"? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Definition of "ally"? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Rolof
07-11-06, 04:04 AM My party has a bard who frequently helps buff the rest of the party by
giving us a +2 to hit and damage bonus. Bard is probably the class I
know least about; I guess it's the 'inspire courage' ability. Anyway, in
this weekend's game, the bard was under a 'confusion' effect, and then
attacked my character.

The question that arose due to this situation is, was my character an
'ally' still for the purposes of retaining the +2 hit/dam bonus? In other
words...is it the PERCEPTION of friendship that matters, or ACTUALITY
that counts? If it matters, my character decided NOT to counter attack
the bard, but rather used a free action to yell out for somebody else to
subdue him. My character is primarily an archer, and thus had no way
to inflict non-lethal damage, not a very practical way at any rate. Since
he realized this and didn't want to risk killing the bard, he continued to
just fire his bow at the enemies.
concerro
07-11-06, 04:15 AM My party has a bard who frequently helps buff the rest of the party by
giving us a +2 to hit and damage bonus. Bard is probably the class I
know least about; I guess it's the 'inspire courage' ability. Anyway, in
this weekend's game, the bard was under a 'confusion' effect, and then
attacked my character.

The question that arose due to this situation is, was my character an
'ally' still for the purposes of retaining the +2 hit/dam bonus? In other
words...is it the PERCEPTION of friendship that matters, or ACTUALITY
that counts? If it matters, my character decided NOT to counter attack
the bard, but rather used a free action to yell out for somebody else to
subdue him. My character is primarily an archer, and thus had no way
to inflict non-lethal damage, not a very practical way at any rate. Since
he realized this and didn't want to risk killing the bard, he continued to
just fire his bow at the enemies.

Perception is the key.
MuteFlute
07-11-06, 04:21 AM Unfortunatly it all depends on the decision of the DM.

However, I would personally say that it is the actuallity of being an ally and not the perception of the caster.

Was it a confusion effect on the bard, or a charm effect?
Vaelan
07-11-06, 05:41 AM Ally is defined in your PHB. It is defined as "A creature friendly to you."

I would not consider somebody who is confused and trying to kill me "friendly to me".
Andorxor
07-11-06, 06:03 AM But he is still friendly to the bard.That makes him to the aly of the bard.
Vaelan
07-11-06, 07:39 AM But he is still friendly to the bard.That makes him to the aly of the bard.
Friendly is an attitude outlined in the PHB. "Disembowling" is not the behavior it attributes to one who is friendly. That falls under "Hostile".

Also, your claim that being an ally is a matter of the perception of the person who may or may not be the target of the effect is completely unwarranted. If my BBEG thinks the party are a grand bunch of fellows and greatly regrets having to kill them in order to proceed with his plans, does he benefit from the Cleric's Bless spell or the Bard's Inspire Courage? He thinks of them as friends, after all...
Seeker95
07-11-06, 07:46 AM Vaelen has provided the working definition.
All other attempts to over-analyze the question are just that.
Edymnion
07-11-06, 12:28 PM Its the Bard's special ability, and it is the Bard's choice who it affects or not. It is his perception of who he considers to be his allies that counts. If he's trying to dissembowl you, he doesn't consider you to be his ally, so no, you would not be getting any bonuses from his class ability.
questionc
07-11-06, 12:39 PM No interpretation can portray the Bard as an ally in this situation. However, looking at the description for inspire courage, nothing in it really says the effect goes away if this happens. This is a "DM makes a decision, and everyone just goes with it" situation.
Andorxor
07-11-06, 01:04 PM "A creature friendly to you"

Where in this sentence does it says something about your attitude,it only talks about the attitude of the creature that is a ally?
Seeker95
07-11-06, 02:02 PM "A creature friendly to you"

Where in this sentence does it says something about your attitude, it only talks about the attitude of the creature that is a ally?It is possible that English is not your first language.

Apply the same sentence structure ("A creature friendly to you") to:
a dessert that tastes good to you

"You" as a pronoun is both the subjective and objective form of the word. The phrase under scrutiny can mean:

a creature that finds you friendly; and
a creature that you find friendly.

I would suspect that it is the caster's intent moreso than the target's intent that determines the effect of a spell. Otherwise, you could always "detect imposters" by simply casting an offense "enemies only" or a defensive "allies only" spell to unmask the enemies within your ranks.
Edymnion
07-11-06, 03:02 PM "A creature friendly to you"

Where in this sentence does it says something about your attitude,it only talks about the attitude of the creature that is a ally?So, are you taking the side that a player is completely incapable of deciding the who is effected by a discretionary ability at all times?

Because this isn't something you can waffle back and forth between. It either works one way, or the other, and thats the way it *ALWAYS* works. Are you willing to say that you are going to completely give up your control over your character, and allow the GM to tell you who your abilities work on, without your concent?
Kary Wanzer
07-11-06, 07:23 PM Bardic music should only affect whoever the bard wants it to affect at any given time, regardless of being confused, charmed, or dominated. It's his music, after all.

That being said, if a confused bard is attacking his allies, I think it's pretty safe to say that from an in-character, roleplaying perspective, he doesn't consider them to be his allies (if only for that round), and thus the character wouldn't want to share his bardic music benefits, even if the player is shaking his head in dismay.
Limousine_Liberal
07-11-06, 07:36 PM I would assume, in this case, that the bard started playing his music and used Inspire Courage in round 1 to help his allies then was confused in round 2 and so attacked. If that is the case the the bard *stopped* playing and started his attack.

In that case, I'd say the people who get the benefit of his playing were those he affected in round 1, when he started playing, not round 2 when he became confused. Since he's no longer continuing the mudic, though the inspriration will wear off in five rounds.

It can't be that the bard was confused and THEN started playing, as the Confusion spell doesn't allow for that (though charm spells or domination might).
Rolof
07-12-06, 09:35 PM Limousine_Liberal, that is fairly close to how it happened, although the
fight was actually much longer...took a couple hours real time, I think
it was around the 6th or 7th round when the confusion hit the bard. I
had already been benefitting from the bonus for some time before the
bard got hit with confusion. On the first round, I remember the player
rolled between 11 and 20, and got to act normally, so he continued his
chant or song. The next few times he rolled, he got the result where he
just stood there babbling incoherently, but the bonus was still in place.
Then on maybe round 4 or 5 of the confusion was when he got a result
of 'attack nearest creature', and started shooting his bow at me, while
I continued to shoot my bow at enemies. The following round after he
shot at me, he got the result of 'flee from caster at top speed'.

Now, had the bard been effected by something like 'dominate person'
or 'charm person' where the target does whatever the caster wants in
the limits of the spell and caster's ability, I wouldn't have questioned
the results at all, because then it would be logical to assume that I am
now perceived as the enemy. But confusion doesn't change the target's
attitude, just makes them into a blithering idiot for a few rounds.

I think it's fairly important to establish a rule for such situations, else
there are many things that could be called into question for a similar
circumstance. Like the spells 'bless', 'bane', etc...or magic items like
the 'screaming bolt' from the DMG...what happens to them? All state
things like "all enemies of the wielder" or "all allies of the caster".
pres_man
07-12-06, 10:16 PM One can be an ally of someone and still be seen as their enemy. Besides which Limousine_Liberal hit the issue. The courage effect would last other 5 rounds. If he started it thinking the archer was his ally he would have embued the archer with the bonuses. If he later changed his mind, he just no longer continues to add to it for the archer, but he can't suddenly shut it off either. There is no dismissal for inspire courage.
Bruunwald
07-13-06, 12:42 PM A bard with 3 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use song or poetics to inspire courage in his allies (including himself), bolstering them against fear and improving their combat abilities. To be affected, an ally must be able to hear the bard sing. The effect lasts for as long as the ally hears the bard sing and for 5 rounds thereafter. An affected ally receives a +1 morale bonus on saving throws against charm and fear effects and a +1 morale bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls. At 8th level, and every six bard levels thereafter, this bonus increases by 1 (+2 at 8th, +3 at 14th, and +4 at 20th). Inspire courage is a mind-affecting ability.

A bard's inspire courage ability lasts for as long as the bard continues it, and for five rounds after. Though the archer would no longer have received the benefit of the continuing song (assuming the bard could continue singing or whatever while confused, which is highly suspect), the archer still would have held the effect for five rounds after the bard became confused, because the effect is on him at that point, not coming from the bard.

See, the continuing effect is under the purview of the bard. But the lingering effect is not. It lasts "after" the bard has discontinued. Obviously, it is not from the bard at that point (he has done his job and has ceased acting), but upon the recipient, in this case, the archer.

Put it this way: a 10th-level priest casts bless on his allies (10 min. duration). On the following round he finds himself dominated by a vampire and turned against his friends. Does the bless go away? No. Because the effect is already in place, on the allies. It's a burst; an effect that comes away from the caster and imbues the receivers. What the caster thinks after he has given up the spell in this way is irrelevant. It is an ongoing effect, but it's mindless and now attached to the recipients.

I'll make this even easier to understand. If I give you a swig of whiskey, but then take the bottle away, you still feel the burn in your throat and belly for the next few minutes. You don't suddenly have it all washed away because I took the bottle back. You might not get any more whiskey from me, but you do still feel the effect of what you got, for as long as it lasts, because the effect is inside of you.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rolof 07-11-06, 04:04 AM	My party has a bard who frequently helps buff the rest of the party by giving us a +2 to hit and damage bonus. Bard is probably the class I know least about; I guess it's the 'inspire courage' ability. Anyway, in this weekend's game, the bard was under a 'confusion' effect, and then attacked my character. The question that arose due to this situation is, was my character an 'ally' still for the purposes of retaining the +2 hit/dam bonus? In other words...is it the PERCEPTION of friendship that matters, or ACTUALITY that counts? If it matters, my character decided NOT to counter attack the bard, but rather used a free action to yell out for somebody else to subdue him. My character is primarily an archer, and thus had no way to inflict non-lethal damage, not a very practical way at any rate. Since he realized this and didn't want to risk killing the bard, he continued to just fire his bow at the enemies.
concerro 07-11-06, 04:15 AM	My party has a bard who frequently helps buff the rest of the party by giving us a +2 to hit and damage bonus. Bard is probably the class I know least about; I guess it's the 'inspire courage' ability. Anyway, in this weekend's game, the bard was under a 'confusion' effect, and then attacked my character. The question that arose due to this situation is, was my character an 'ally' still for the purposes of retaining the +2 hit/dam bonus? In other words...is it the PERCEPTION of friendship that matters, or ACTUALITY that counts? If it matters, my character decided NOT to counter attack the bard, but rather used a free action to yell out for somebody else to subdue him. My character is primarily an archer, and thus had no way to inflict non-lethal damage, not a very practical way at any rate. Since he realized this and didn't want to risk killing the bard, he continued to just fire his bow at the enemies. Perception is the key.
MuteFlute 07-11-06, 04:21 AM	Unfortunatly it all depends on the decision of the DM. However, I would personally say that it is the actuallity of being an ally and not the perception of the caster. Was it a confusion effect on the bard, or a charm effect?
Vaelan 07-11-06, 05:41 AM	Ally is defined in your PHB. It is defined as "A creature friendly to you." I would not consider somebody who is confused and trying to kill me "friendly to me".
Andorxor 07-11-06, 06:03 AM	But he is still friendly to the bard.That makes him to the aly of the bard.
Vaelan 07-11-06, 07:39 AM	But he is still friendly to the bard.That makes him to the aly of the bard. Friendly is an attitude outlined in the PHB. "Disembowling" is not the behavior it attributes to one who is friendly. That falls under "Hostile". Also, your claim that being an ally is a matter of the perception of the person who may or may not be the target of the effect is completely unwarranted. If my BBEG thinks the party are a grand bunch of fellows and greatly regrets having to kill them in order to proceed with his plans, does he benefit from the Cleric's Bless spell or the Bard's Inspire Courage? He thinks of them as friends, after all...
Seeker95 07-11-06, 07:46 AM	Vaelen has provided the working definition. All other attempts to over-analyze the question are just that.
Edymnion 07-11-06, 12:28 PM	Its the Bard's special ability, and it is the Bard's choice who it affects or not. It is his perception of who he considers to be his allies that counts. If he's trying to dissembowl you, he doesn't consider you to be his ally, so no, you would not be getting any bonuses from his class ability.
questionc 07-11-06, 12:39 PM	No interpretation can portray the Bard as an ally in this situation. However, looking at the description for inspire courage, nothing in it really says the effect goes away if this happens. This is a "DM makes a decision, and everyone just goes with it" situation.
Andorxor 07-11-06, 01:04 PM	"A creature friendly to you" Where in this sentence does it says something about your attitude,it only talks about the attitude of the creature that is a ally?
Seeker95 07-11-06, 02:02 PM	"A creature friendly to you" Where in this sentence does it says something about your attitude, it only talks about the attitude of the creature that is a ally?It is possible that English is not your first language. Apply the same sentence structure ("A creature friendly to you") to: a dessert that tastes good to you "You" as a pronoun is both the subjective and objective form of the word. The phrase under scrutiny can mean: a creature that finds you friendly; and a creature that you find friendly. I would suspect that it is the caster's intent moreso than the target's intent that determines the effect of a spell. Otherwise, you could always "detect imposters" by simply casting an offense "enemies only" or a defensive "allies only" spell to unmask the enemies within your ranks.
Edymnion 07-11-06, 03:02 PM	"A creature friendly to you" Where in this sentence does it says something about your attitude,it only talks about the attitude of the creature that is a ally?So, are you taking the side that a player is completely incapable of deciding the who is effected by a discretionary ability at all times? Because this isn't something you can waffle back and forth between. It either works one way, or the other, and thats the way it ALWAYS works. Are you willing to say that you are going to completely give up your control over your character, and allow the GM to tell you who your abilities work on, without your concent?
Kary Wanzer 07-11-06, 07:23 PM	Bardic music should only affect whoever the bard wants it to affect at any given time, regardless of being confused, charmed, or dominated. It's his music, after all. That being said, if a confused bard is attacking his allies, I think it's pretty safe to say that from an in-character, roleplaying perspective, he doesn't consider them to be his allies (if only for that round), and thus the character wouldn't want to share his bardic music benefits, even if the player is shaking his head in dismay.
Limousine_Liberal 07-11-06, 07:36 PM	I would assume, in this case, that the bard started playing his music and used Inspire Courage in round 1 to help his allies then was confused in round 2 and so attacked. If that is the case the the bard stopped playing and started his attack. In that case, I'd say the people who get the benefit of his playing were those he affected in round 1, when he started playing, not round 2 when he became confused. Since he's no longer continuing the mudic, though the inspriration will wear off in five rounds. It can't be that the bard was confused and THEN started playing, as the Confusion spell doesn't allow for that (though charm spells or domination might).
Rolof 07-12-06, 09:35 PM	Limousine_Liberal, that is fairly close to how it happened, although the fight was actually much longer...took a couple hours real time, I think it was around the 6th or 7th round when the confusion hit the bard. I had already been benefitting from the bonus for some time before the bard got hit with confusion. On the first round, I remember the player rolled between 11 and 20, and got to act normally, so he continued his chant or song. The next few times he rolled, he got the result where he just stood there babbling incoherently, but the bonus was still in place. Then on maybe round 4 or 5 of the confusion was when he got a result of 'attack nearest creature', and started shooting his bow at me, while I continued to shoot my bow at enemies. The following round after he shot at me, he got the result of 'flee from caster at top speed'. Now, had the bard been effected by something like 'dominate person' or 'charm person' where the target does whatever the caster wants in the limits of the spell and caster's ability, I wouldn't have questioned the results at all, because then it would be logical to assume that I am now perceived as the enemy. But confusion doesn't change the target's attitude, just makes them into a blithering idiot for a few rounds. I think it's fairly important to establish a rule for such situations, else there are many things that could be called into question for a similar circumstance. Like the spells 'bless', 'bane', etc...or magic items like the 'screaming bolt' from the DMG...what happens to them? All state things like "all enemies of the wielder" or "all allies of the caster".
pres_man 07-12-06, 10:16 PM	One can be an ally of someone and still be seen as their enemy. Besides which Limousine_Liberal hit the issue. The courage effect would last other 5 rounds. If he started it thinking the archer was his ally he would have embued the archer with the bonuses. If he later changed his mind, he just no longer continues to add to it for the archer, but he can't suddenly shut it off either. There is no dismissal for inspire courage.
Bruunwald 07-13-06, 12:42 PM	A bard with 3 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use song or poetics to inspire courage in his allies (including himself), bolstering them against fear and improving their combat abilities. To be affected, an ally must be able to hear the bard sing. The effect lasts for as long as the ally hears the bard sing and for 5 rounds thereafter. An affected ally receives a +1 morale bonus on saving throws against charm and fear effects and a +1 morale bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls. At 8th level, and every six bard levels thereafter, this bonus increases by 1 (+2 at 8th, +3 at 14th, and +4 at 20th). Inspire courage is a mind-affecting ability. A bard's inspire courage ability lasts for as long as the bard continues it, and for five rounds after. Though the archer would no longer have received the benefit of the continuing song (assuming the bard could continue singing or whatever while confused, which is highly suspect), the archer still would have held the effect for five rounds after the bard became confused, because the effect is on him at that point, not coming from the bard. See, the continuing effect is under the purview of the bard. But the lingering effect is not. It lasts "after" the bard has discontinued. Obviously, it is not from the bard at that point (he has done his job and has ceased acting), but upon the recipient, in this case, the archer. Put it this way: a 10th-level priest casts bless on his allies (10 min. duration). On the following round he finds himself dominated by a vampire and turned against his friends. Does the bless go away? No. Because the effect is already in place, on the allies. It's a burst; an effect that comes away from the caster and imbues the receivers. What the caster thinks after he has given up the spell in this way is irrelevant. It is an ongoing effect, but it's mindless and now attached to the recipients. I'll make this even easier to understand. If I give you a swig of whiskey, but then take the bottle away, you still feel the burn in your throat and belly for the next few minutes. You don't suddenly have it all washed away because I took the bottle back. You might not get any more whiskey from me, but you do still feel the effect of what you got, for as long as it lasts, because the effect is inside of you.