Post/Author/DateTime	Post
arcantos 02-13-08, 01:18 PM	So we're in combat, the berserker is on frenzy, the last enemy dies and he's next. He ought attack the cleric, who's standing rite next to him, right? Nope,He delays. The cleric cast calm emotions and we go on with our lives... "the book doesn't say i can't delay" is his excuse... The book does say he cannot do anything requiring patience... So the question is: Can a frenzied character delay? i find it way too out there :/ I know i shouldn't go trying to get the cliric to die, yet... The thing is they DID play raw when it came to killing my familiar, and now it turn's out the frenzid patiently waits for the cleric to cure him, not fair :mad:
Zombie_Babies 02-13-08, 01:25 PM	FBs suck and can be game wreckers. What he did is, IMO, against the rules. He's in a Frenzy that is so strong he'd kill his own mother if she were near him. How could he think it's ok to delay? Short answer: No. He can't do it.
1 ton ghost 02-13-08, 01:48 PM	OMG, c'mon... that is so a blatant exploitation of the rules. one Hell of a "get out of jail free" card if i ever saw one. i would punish this kinda' rules lawyering big time. strictly put, Delaying, especially after the big finish, is (edited). it's contraditory to their nature and breaks the system. ie)he wants to have his cake and eat it too. they even say, you can try and "come down" yourself, albeit w/ a Will Save, but you will probably turn on your party. case closed. i know this as my 1/2 ork FB "Indrid Cold" was forced to chase down the party cleric and kill her. this sucked as there was no escape (i had Fast Movement and she was 20 ft'ing in Full Plate). once more, this was my g/f...talk about an awkward car ride home. point is, i couldn't hit my Will save to kill Frenzy, no Calm Emotions available(which still takes a save, also augmented by the Frenzy and/or Rage [Will +], you can't opt to "voluntarilly fail" your save, you're in frenzy!), and no one was going to dare non-lethal means of stopping me; no grapples (BAB & Str too high) and the like. so, having said that, slap this guy for me and ask him if he's going to Delay until you can explain and calm things down a bit...
toucanbuzz 02-13-08, 02:32 PM	Well said, this is blatant rules exploitation at its finest.
bobotheguy 02-14-08, 01:27 AM	Its cheese, but good cheese. Some that I may be using the next time around. Yes, it is a large abuse of the rules, yes it does defeat the purpose of frenzy, but in accordance of delay (d20srd) "Delay By choosing to delay, you take no action and then act normally on whatever initiative count you decide to act. When you delay, you voluntarily reduce your own initiative result for the rest of the combat. When your new, lower initiative count comes up later in the same round, you can act normally. You can specify this new initiative result or just wait until some time later in the round and act then, thus fixing your new initiative count at that point. You never get back the time you spend waiting to see what’s going to happen. You can’t, however, interrupt anyone else’s action (as you can with a readied action). Initiative Consequences of Delaying Your initiative result becomes the count on which you took the delayed action. If you come to your next action and have not yet performed an action, you don’t get to take a delayed action (though you can delay again). If you take a delayed action in the next round, before your regular turn comes up, your initiative count rises to that new point in the order of battle, and you do not get your regular action that round. Ergo, you can delay your initiative until right after the cleric. technically you could delay until your frenzy ends, but for the purpose of this cheese, I would houserule for him that he can only delay ONE round Bobo
Someone 02-14-08, 01:50 AM	Doesn't frenzy have the same blurb mentioned in a barbarian's rage, preventing them from doing anything that requires "patience or concentration"? I would think the delay action involves patience, something a frothing berserker has none of.
otakutaylor 02-14-08, 02:09 AM	Granted they won't change it this long after they put the class out I figure a house rule is fair in that a frenzied berserker who is frenzying has only two views on allies and enemies, "Threats and bigger threats" After the enemies are gone that's over and the barbarian has no control over what he kills, or how he kills it. In my eyes, the character becomes an npc for a brief moment when the bad guys are all dead. Since in combat if you were fighting people you precived as a threat and the only way you could possibly come up with to stop them is to split them down the middle with your great axe, then do so.
Jutter 02-14-08, 04:19 AM	If I were the DM, I'd just tell the player 'no'. You can't delay. That would mean you can delay untill you snap out of your frenzy, which nullifies one of the major disadvantages of this prestige class. As a player, I'd say "Great, the cleric didn't die" and move on, respecting the DM's right to make that call.
Zombie_Babies 02-14-08, 10:57 AM	Allowing the FB to do this grants him all of the benefits of the class ability without the penalties. Why not let assassins death attack after no time studying? How about those PrCs (such as Starmetal Adept) that do not give you full spell progression? Why not just give it to them? The penalties are there for a reason and should not be overlooked. If he was that concerned with his party's safety he'd not have built an FB in the first place.
1 ton ghost 02-14-08, 12:14 PM	Doesn't frenzy have the same blurb mentioned in a barbarian's rage, preventing them from doing anything that requires "patience or concentration"? I would think the delay action involves patience, something a frothing berserker has none of. you said it not me... having established that, this just institutes the buyer beware program. not every PC does their homework, especially in this case, "big ass dmg? Hell yeah!" if you're soloing, yeah, rock out, but for a standard 4 PC party... that sword cuts both ways though. ie)they don't consider their buddies/PCs. having experience the never-ending guilt and so forth put out by my g/f's untimely death :D, i warned them over and over, "make a Heal check on me/the enemy to get your bearings. yeah, i'm hurt fairly bad, but i'm confident i can put down monster 'x' in a rnd w/ a Full Attack, you guys might want to back off (make a Hide check vs. my Spot, get out of range, something/anything to stave off left over frenzy). once my position was instituted, not a single mishap. Calm Emotions can help, suggested tanglefoot bags, a net, non-lethal means, etc. i even said, "hey, if you have a doubt, go ahead and put me down, just try and stabilize me later. i'd do it for you (me)." i am a little leary though knowing a trap, falling off your horse, a stray bottle at an inn, any dmg can "set you off". alot of these FBs seem to have a penchant for Iron Will now to help augment their inner resolve, but Will saves were never Ftr/Brb's strong suit, you know? tough nut to crack. Delaying though, isn't. that is, stipulating, "i delay" post fight, mid-frenzy is a cop out and a total breach of RP in favor of rules lawyering. as a DM, i would highly advise you to kill that noise. if they insist and the arguement is eating up time, deny XP. you could always award XP to the others for putting down the "new threat" (FB) yourself. point is, it's hard to stop a train.
Vaelan 02-14-08, 02:00 PM	Frenzy explicitly states that the Frenzied Berserker must attempt to slay their opponents to the best of their ability. The player in question is cheating.
Captain_Madrick 02-14-08, 03:01 PM	This berserker goes into a frenzy, activating a blood lust in himself. He wants to kill, more than ANYTHING else, which is why he becomes soooo good at it. He turns on the frenzy, goes at the enemies, slays them all, but is still not satisfied!! He wants blood on his sword, and he wants it more than anything else. He turns to his left, spotting the cleric....and he knows there is blood! What exactly is this blood hungry berserker waiting for?? No, he can't delay. If he can see a target, and delay, he isn't berserking. That implies he has a control over what he wants; blood frenzy does not allow control. If he insists on delaying, he isn't berserking.
Sinis 02-14-08, 04:55 PM	After reading this thread, I have come to the following conclusions: 1. Frenzied Berserkers cannot delay. 2. Frenzied Berserkers are stupid.
Salla 02-14-08, 07:03 PM	After reading this thread, I have come to the following conclusions: 1. Frenzied Berserkers cannot delay. 2. Frenzied Berserkers are stupid. Right on both counts.
kelvinaw273 02-15-08, 05:02 AM	I agree - I would rule that he cannot delay. But then I would never allow a PC to take the FB in the first place!
zeratulcraft 02-15-08, 06:00 AM	Depends, I could see delaying but acting in the same round, since all actions occur within the same 6 second bracket. But delaying and 'missing' a turn...no.
Fitz10019 02-15-08, 10:56 AM	The cleric should have readied the action of casting Calm Emotions. That's the only way to accomplish this fairly.
1 ton ghost 02-15-08, 11:24 AM	The cleric should have readied the action of casting Calm Emotions. That's the only way to accomplish this fairly. been advised and implemented previously w/ some success. this does require a Save, and like the Delay discrepancy, you cannot "willingly fail your save" to circumnavigate this nasty, albeit, bloody problem. believe me, i know given my own FB. your Will goes up to boot during so it's like, "damn, they really stack the deck." but for having such immense dmg output, well, there's a trade for everything, just prepare accordingly. typically, we'd employ the following for left over frenzy: -stay or go mounted when enemy is nearing death or has died. a horse's move is gonna' get you out of the FB's move/reach usually. coincidentally, don't put Expeditious Retreat on your FB unless you know for sure... related: if all your buddies have fled and there are no enemies left to slay but pack animals, a horse, some non-combatant remain that isn't necessarilly a possible "threat" in the traditional sense, are you obligated to engage w/ remaining frenzy? ie)would you turn on your horse, riding dog, etc? -blind the FB or at least obscure their senses so they cannot find you. anything to get Distraction on their Spot/Listen checks to locate more "prey" -sleep poison, but usually this is moot, their Fort is so damn good -the brave sir robin technique...run away. easier said than done depending on how many lvls of Brb they got pre-FB PrC (read, Fast Movement) -Dominate, Charm, any mind-control (Sp) you got, Invis is a safe bet too -Full Defense and hopefully Combat Expertise to up AC. i know they aren't obligated to Power Attacking during frenzy, but wouldn't they often, even against their partymates? how do you determine the "punch" you should deliever. it's not enough to just say, "i'm still frenzying, i attack 'closest PC'." wouldn't you also PowAttck as well in most cases? how much and how do you determine that? random roll? pre-existing relationship lvls? etc. lot of gray area. this could go both ways; you might minus 0 from your BAB to "soften the blow" via PA as it was (metagaming), but you might take out the full BAB in hopes you'll miss altogether (metagaming).
Evil DM Mk3 02-15-08, 11:34 AM	This Kin has officially done the Munch. Mind you FB is a migraine in barrel.
Captain_Madrick 02-15-08, 01:09 PM	Maybe invest in a wand of illusions, and stand back and create illusions that would draw his attention before party members would? Invisibility works well this way too...