Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Quenditar 02-09-05, 10:35 PM	Is there any good way to calculate the number of wizards and sorcerers able to cast 5th-level spells in an average state of a million people?
Joe Khol 02-10-05, 07:50 AM	There is a section in the Campaign (I think) section of the DMG (certainly 3.0, probably 3.5) about that kind of thing - the spread of classes and levels in a given population. Its all based on village/town/city but you should be able to work from that for a whole country. It might be in the SRD too.
CzarGarrett 02-10-05, 10:27 AM	Or instead of calculations, you can just decide that in this, this, this, this, and this city/village there's a wizard/sorcerer capable.
Quenditar 02-10-05, 06:06 PM	So, the most efficient method would be to take the medieval demographics calculator I've seen online, use it to generate a set of towns, and use the DMG's guidelines by town size to find an answer? I'm working on the notion that the spell Fabricate would destroy a medieval economy, and hoping to prove that the number of potential casters is low enough that they would not have significant power to alter the market.
Art_Tillary 02-14-05, 08:26 AM	I don't have a specific answer for you, but do have some ideas and pointers. As other posters have mentioned, the DMG has a guide based upon size of town as to how many of each class are present. That's page 139 in 3.0 edition, table 4-43. Also, in the same section of the DMG, there is a frequency of how large towns should be. Page 137 in 3.0 edition, table 4-40 (Random Town Generation). You could take your area, use the Midieval Demographics calculator on the web to get population for your country. Then break down the population to fit the table in the DMG. Quite a bit of math, and I suspect the table isn't very historical. Or you could use the Demographic calculator and just see how many high level mages you have in the big city or cities the calculator gives you. Much simpler, but you miss out on the low and mid level mages. That solves the Fabricate spell issue (I think), but doesn't cover any of the other spells that will have an economic / social impact. A third method is to look at two areas of the ancient world. Trans-alpine Europe at the time of the Roman Empire had only villages of around 100 (http://www.nipissingu.ca/department/history/muhlberger/orb/OVC1S3.HTM) people each. As such, under the RAW, there would almost no mages higher than 2nd level; and many would have no mages. Inside the Empire (http://www.nipissingu.ca/department/history/muhlberger/orb/OVC1S2.HTM), there were plenty of towns in the 1,000 person size, and a large number of over 10,000. A fourth option is just declare what the level percentages are for entire world or country. I did that, but it's not RAW or scaleable. It gives me world wide numbers, but doesn't directly help with what level is in a village or city. I did declare that mages etc would follow economic rules and thus higher levels would be in or near cities. No archmage in a village of 20 people unless it was only a days walk to the capital city. Note that until relatively recently, cities would have a network of smaller towns surrounding them. As such, a city of 20,000 would have a bunch of small hamlets around them. It was the small villages that grew the food. think of modern sub-divisions in the suburbs. Instead of traveling to the city every day, they walk to the fields. They sell to the city a couple of times a year for big crops, and closer in vilages provide the more perishable goods like cabbage and milk. I'm going to recommend www.the-orb.net as a reference. My ISP has been giving me fits on name resolution. AT
Quenditar 02-14-05, 02:12 PM	Thank you for all the info! I did end up using the Demographic Calculator to calculate the number of cities and placed average numbers and levels of mages in them. (I ended up with an estimate of 14 mages capable of casting 5th-level spells or higher per million population.) I'd like to do percentages for a given population, but the RAW don't mention anywhere how common the adventuring classes are, probably because it's setting-dependent. I suppose I could write a program to apply the DMG's tables to the Demographic Calculator's output. The economic impact of magic is a huge field that I have barely worked with at all. It's very hard to tackle without a better sense of how common magic and magic items truly are. The impression I get from the RAW is that magic items and magic beyond first-level spells are very expensive luxuries that play no role in most people's lives, but cantrips are common enough that most people will encounter them. Fabricate and polymorph any object are powerful spells, but the spell that could really change an agrarian economy is plant growth. Now I need to guess at the number of clerics with the Plant domain and druids of 5th-level or higher - rangers of 11th-level or higher can be safely disregarded - and the number of druids who would want to encourage the growth of farming communities. The cure series of spells would greatly reduce death due to injury; since by the RAW even cure minor wounds is 50 days' wages for a farm laborer, how important that is to the general demographic picture I don't know. Remove disease and lesser restoration could greatly reduce mortality among the upper classes, but are far beyond most people's reach. Even those fragments suggest major changes in society; if the nobility does not provide 'health insurance' for their peasants, most of them are deep in debt to moneylenders willing to pay for medical emergencies. The large proportion of the harvest going to moneylenders, who sell what they do not need, explains the low price of grain just as well as the hypothesis of low population density. Meanwhile, the higher survival rate among the well-off, combined with partible inheritance (setting-dependent, but common), would lead to less concentration of wealth. I have read an essay arguing that such inheritance practices (in this case, Islamic inheritance law) contribute to economic backwardness, but in the D&D timeframe I don't think that's a major issue. I could see a society with a sharp dividing line between the impoverished, debt-burdened peasantry and everyone else (townsmen, clergy, nobles), rather than a dividing line between nobles (and clergy) and non-nobles. Or I could be totally wrong. I'm an amateur economist, not a sociologist.
11d7 02-14-05, 02:38 PM	I handle it by designing every Mage Guild/Church in the world. Since all spell casters but druids are memebers of organizations I have placed almost every spell-caster in the world and can account for it. However their are less than 20 known settalments in the campaign I'm currently running so its not that difficult.
Art_Tillary 02-14-05, 02:54 PM	Besides being setting dependent, saying what the world or country percentages would create problems with published designers. You'd have people thinking beyond the PC level as to what all those NPC mages are doing. You would end up with magic actually impacting the society. Figuring out that would be to much work. It seems unreal that a low level cleric in a village woud NOT use the cure light wounds spell on a local for free or cheap. Yes, the cleric has to make money to support themselves and their temple. Except, most spells are like airline seats and hotel rooms. There is no value in one that is not used the previoius day. As such, in a small community, it's presumably better to get a regular donation / tithe and give out healing for free. Sure, the Lord of the manor has priority, and maybe is paying to have scrolls written for the next war. But if it's a use it or lose it normally, then use it. The tithe would almost be insurance premiums (grin). Then there is WotC's Stronghold Builders Guide. The price & XP for bed of healing is fairly low for the amount of healing it can do. In a city, you could charge a couple of silvers and pay it off in under 5 years (I think, from memory). Same goes for teleportation rings. The only counter I've heard is that NPCs will not spend XP on making magic items. It does raise the question of what they do all day since learning a new spell is generally a one level at night study item for PCs. I insist that PCs and NPCs follow the same rules. I think it's telling that Living Greyhawk (based upon a skimming of the rules) forbids using XP to build lots of magic items. I guess they realize that it would blow society and challenge levels out the door. Say 5th level characters with wands of healing light wounds, magic missle, sleep, etc. Lots of resources despite relatively low level. There was a discussion last summer about wall of iron also being an economically / socially disruptive spell.
Quenditar 02-14-05, 04:37 PM	Besides being setting dependent, saying what the world or country percentages would create problems with published designers. You'd have people thinking beyond the PC level as to what all those NPC mages are doing. You would end up with magic actually impacting the society. Figuring out that would be to much work. Heh. So true. It seems unreal that a low level cleric in a village woud NOT use the cure light wounds spell on a local for free or cheap. Yes, the cleric has to make money to support themselves and their temple. Except, most spells are like airline seats and hotel rooms. There is no value in one that is not used the previoius day. As such, in a small community, it's presumably better to get a regular donation / tithe and give out healing for free. Sure, the Lord of the manor has priority, and maybe is paying to have scrolls written for the next war. But if it's a use it or lose it normally, then use it. The tithe would almost be insurance premiums (grin). That makes more sense than the RAW, and is how I thought things would work before checking the PHB and the prices. Presumably they gouge adventurers because they know they can pay. :) By eliminating the market-oriented moneylenders, though, the problem of how a society with a lower mortality rate from everyday accidents (from said cheap low-level cure spells) can also end up with a higher standard of urban living than the real Middle Ages as measured by grain prices (I did the research over the summer, but didn't keep good notes; I think D&D grain is about 25% cheaper than historical 13th-century grain) comes back again. My previous theory was that the mortality rate from orc invasions and rampaging dragons and such keeps the population from expanding much, and only the more productive plots of land are cultivated. Then there is WotC's Stronghold Builders Guide. The price & XP for bed of healing is fairly low for the amount of healing it can do. In a city, you could charge a couple of silvers and pay it off in under 5 years (I think, from memory). Same goes for teleportation rings. The only counter I've heard is that NPCs will not spend XP on making magic items. It does raise the question of what they do all day since learning a new spell is generally a one level at night study item for PCs. I insist that PCs and NPCs follow the same rules. The bed of healing produces an interesting image; villagers from all over the countryside coming with wagons to a city with a bed of remove disease. If it does a lot of business, it would pay for itself very quickly. A bed of regeneration is a much larger investment, but charging a gold piece for the service doesn't seem excessive; I think it would pay for itself in a similar time frame. Boots of teleportation are quite an expensive investment; they're great for BBEGs but not much use for transporting goods or lending out to people. I haven't heard of rings of teleportation - same principle? I think it's telling that Living Greyhawk (based upon a skimming of the rules) forbids using XP to build lots of magic items. I guess they realize that it would blow society and challenge levels out the door. Say 5th level characters with wands of healing light wounds, magic missle, sleep, etc. Lots of resources despite relatively low level. I don't know the Living Greyhawk rules. Explain? Also, I thought that you can't spend so much XP on an item that you lose a level, which puts a bit of a limit on things. There was a discussion last summer about wall of iron also being an economically / socially disruptive spell. My kneejerk reaction was that the spell wouldn't cause trouble because of the small number of mages available to cast it (running with my earlier figures, 3.5 per million), but then I ran some numbers. An 11th-level wizard's wall of iron costs 661 gp to have cast and yields a wall with a volume of 504.167 cubic feet, or about 20,000 pounds of iron. As iron sells for about 1 sp per pound (disregarding transportation costs as usual), the wall is worth 2000 gp. Even if the wizard isn't in the iron business and has to sell it for 1000 gp, that's a profit of 339 gp per day. Presumably the only reason iron hasn't been driven down to 7 cp per pound is that there are very few mages who can cast this spell (~ 3 per 10,000,000) and they can make more money exploring dank caves and harassing dragons. That said, if the price of iron did fall 30%, what effects would it have on medieval technology?
Art_Tillary 02-14-05, 08:12 PM	The not charging for cures will only work in small villages I would think. In a city it would likely be to hard to ensure that only parishiners get it for cheap, and the number of people who want cures is higher. Also, there is still a good chance that the cleric will not be in the village when somebody gets hurt. Or the peasant gets hurt to much to be cured. There could very well be only one cleric for three or four hamlets, with each hamlet 3 or 4 hours walk away. Not bad for doing religious support, but not fast enough to save a life. Still, enough to cure somebody who was moderately hurt. I'll take your word that grain is cheaper in D&D than 13th century (1200s AD). Of course D&D might also have better seeds from long term magical manipulation (similar to genetic engineering). Or they have a slight edge on farm tech, say a better harvester or something. It would be interesting to see how grain prices compare to Roman Empire time frame. A bed of cure disease would help with longer term diseases, but not plagues. Travel time would kill the people I would think. That's a down side to living in the boondocks as opposed to the city. You are right though about the bed of regeneration. I'm stealing an idea from John Ringo for a possible world. The elves are very long lived (as per RAW), but they are also the evil bankers. The rates of interest are fairly low, as are the monthly payments. The kicker is that humans, even human city states never pay off the loan. It's permanent income for the elves. Ring of teleportation is a one way teleport from a fixed site to another fixed site. It takes a 17th level wizard to do, so it will be rare. Good for very long distance trading. Say from Bombay India to London England. Not worth it for Rome to London. A porter can carry maybe 50 or 75 pounds in a backpack from point a to point b. If the goods are expensive, say spices, pepper, etc the 2 silvers per round trip is cheap. For the moderately rich, it's a vacation cost like taking a cruise. Living Greyhawk, as far as I can remember the rules, will forcibly retire your character if you reach something like 20th level. If you use making magical items to keep down your XP, and hence your level, they will forcibly retire your character. You would not be spending more XP than allowed by the rules (ie, don't drop a level), but the side effect of using the XP is that you don't level up & retire. I take that as an indicatation of a broken rule set. Unless somehow using XP to make magic items for yourself is a form of power gaming? Plentiful iron in France under Charlemange was one factor in moving from the Dark Ages / Fall of Rome to feudalism & middle ages. More iron or steel weapons, a lot more iron tools and machines. More people can afford armor and swords. Not sure of long term effects, probably Lords have less power over the peasants since the cost of getting arms and armor would be cheaper. You are probably right that mages of the right level would be to busy. Be an interesting chaotic evil thing to do as a mage. Cheap iron, out of work miners. Then up and leave. No more miners, no more iron production for quite a while. AT
Quenditar 02-14-05, 09:49 PM	Using D&D death rules rather than real-world medicine, even a little bit of magical healing will prevent death from an injury. So the real problem is getting to the wounded man in time, rather than a patient dying while being cared for. Urban laborers don't have much more money than farm laborers, so unless they get healing at a discount they don't have the means to afford it either. But I think you're really onto something with the beds of healing; why can't there be a bed of cure light wounds costing a few coppers a use? What a medieval city needs as much as beds of remove disease is some sort of water purification system using purify food and drink. I don't know anything about water distribution systems in medieval cities, but if most of the water comes from one source it should be practical to build a purifying pipe or cistern the water has to flow through. You're right that a plague would hit the countryside just as hard as it did in the real world, but with beds and wands of remove disease and quarantine measures, the cities should escape practically unscathed. In fact, most of what we've come up with would sharply reduce mortality in cities but not help the countryside much. From what I've read, cities relied on immigrants to keep the population stable into the 18th century at least; if cities are healthier than the countryside, do they end up overpopulated? Are you thinking of the teleportation circle spell or something like that? A paired set would work well for transportation, and IIRC a pair costs under 55,000 gp, or less than a bed of restoration. Since AFAIK they last pretty much indefinitely, one could pay for itself fairly quickly with a toll of, say, a gold piece. That would be enough to discourage laborers, but not enough to impede travelers, tourists, or merchants as long as the points were reasonably far apart (say, London and Paris). 1 gp as toll is too high for grain or ore, but should be fine for spices and cloth and might be low enough for wine. Hmm...perhaps the greater abundance of iron, leading to more iron farming implements, is the technological advance that makes D&D farmers more productive. How common were iron-shod plows and such in the High Middle Ages, anyhow? As for the Greyhawk problem, I think it's a case where two rules, neither of which are broken in themselves, have a broken result. The assumption is that the crafting wizard is with a party of higher level and will have higher-level challenges thrown at him that he can't throw equally heavy magical artillery at because he's lower-level, and so hopefully it's a wash. And the 20th-level retirement rule makes sense too. Probably the best method is to count XP used to craft items as part of the character's XP and retire them at 190,000 XP anyhow. I've seen other references to that trick, but for 15th-level githyanki wizards who don't want to be eaten by the lich-queen. It's going to happen whenever there is an incentive not to gain levels. I like the elf moneylenders living off their old loans (they probably think of it as investment income). Have the elves designed the loans so they can never be repaid, or are they designed to be repaid over a few millennia or such? I also like the idea of wrecking a country's iron industry through predatory pricing, if enough mages could be gathered to do it. And not just chaotic destruction-for-its-own-sake types; I could see an LE elf mage turning out iron for fifty years to ensure that a human state will have no iron-mining industry and no miners who remember how to mine when the time comes to conquer it.
Art_Tillary 02-15-05, 10:01 AM	The beds of whatever, the rings of teleportation all can pay for themselves with high use and low prices. I figured out the teleportation circles last year, that if you charge 1 silver per one way trip, and make a trip once every five minutes (ala stevadores moving goods), 24 hours day, 365 days a year you will start turning a profit in less than 4 years I think. I don't think cities would become over populated, although they might have more people than they have jobs for. At that point it depends upon the government. If the government is like Rome, they give out bread and circuses to keep the people happy. Or they could impose a strong police force to keep crime and violence to a reasonable level. I don't know how much iron was used, but I know it kept going up. The loans probably can never be repaid. But if the payment rate is low, and item doesn't wear out, who cares. Similar to renting, but with the carrot of eventually you'll own it. At some point I need to carefully read the Living Greyhawk rules and ask on those boards. I like the part about the LE elf mage. Maybe it's a larger plot to keep humans under control. Control the iron, various magical items, etc to threaten human governments. Do it slowly and subtle. With little in the way of a media or common writing storage it might not ever be noticed. One elf destroys the mining industry for 30 years and leaves. Humans look at trying to reopen mines and maybe spend a lot of money. New elf moves in and destroys the investment. AT