Post/Author/DateTime	Post
mathogre 09-24-05, 04:50 PM	My current character is a Paladin. One of the other characters in our game has just read some books that have turned him evil (as per our DM and the adventure we're playing). He has not yet performed acts that are evil. My paladin doesn't know this alignment shift has occurred. Assuming there's a reason for my paladin to try to detect evil in the presence of this other character, and assuming the other character does not perform any evil acts, technically I should still see his aura of evil, assuming RAW. He's evil, so the aura should be present. This seems wrong to me. If the other character has done nothing other than to read books, I can't imagine how that's evil. Now maybe he no longer holds internal barriers against evil acts, and that I can accept, but I can't see that as evil. I can't see that as causing an alignment shift. Point is, until he actually does something evil, I don't think my detect evil should allow me to see evil from him. Does that make sense or am I missing something? TIA!
Slyde Shadowdart 09-24-05, 05:09 PM	My current character is a Paladin. <snip> Assuming there's a reason for my paladin to try to detect evil in the presence of this other character, and assuming the other character does not perform any evil acts, technically I should still see his aura of evil, assuming RAW. He's evil, so the aura should be present. This seems wrong to me. It isn't. If the other character has done nothing other than to read books, I can't imagine how that's evil. Now maybe he no longer holds internal barriers against evil acts, and that I can accept, but I can't see that as evil. I can't see that as causing an alignment shift. The act of reading the book wasn't evil. The book was. Assuming that it was a magical artifact, and is an evil one at that, and assuming it's meta power was "change alignment to evil" or somesuch. The character is by RAW evil now. If the player can handle it and play it well, it should be some good roleplaying potential. Maybe the character starts having less problem with evil acts, maybe they "know" its wrong but can't do anything to stop. Etc, etc. Point is, until he actually does something evil, I don't think my detect evil should allow me to see evil from him. But it does, again assuming that the book magically changed the character's alignment. Does that make sense or am I missing something? It makes sense. The problem is that you're wanting to play your character based on what you think in the meta, not based on the rules and the world in-game. In the game, the character is now evil. This does give you some excellent rp'ing chances too. Think about it. Your character knows that this person wasn't evil before reading the book. You know he/she can be redeemed! They MUST be redeemed!! :D TIA! Mine in blue.
mathogre 09-24-05, 05:13 PM	Oh I agree the RP possibilities are great. I just didn't want to be able to "see" evil before it is even possible. I'm a noob, and now that you mention it, the book he read was evil. This makes more sense. Thanks!!!!!!!
Slyde Shadowdart 09-24-05, 05:20 PM	No problem. Welcome to D&D. I must say, you picked the most challenging class to start with. Way to jump in headfirst! :D Paladins are tough, not only because it's challenging to do what is "right", but because DMs and players everywhere have vastly different ways of looking at the Paladin class and what "right" is. The thing to keep in mind above all else, is that in D&D, alignment and good/evil are real and concrete parts of existance. This is why, as in your case, things like an evil book that changes a good person into an evil one can exist and function. Some folks will jump in and say things like "but that's railroading" or things of that nature, but IMO, things like this are what make D&D fun. Good luck, and have a blast.
Algorithm_X 09-24-05, 08:22 PM	Book of Vile Darkness? Your character would notice the evil the same as he would notice if the book had turned him and his equipment purple, that is the instant he was within the perception area the appropriate sense. (like opening your eyes to see). Note the change would be sudden an I am guessing unexpected, this may lead your character to questioning why it happened. Since you are a paladin I suggest having your character seeking council with a LG cleric of an order your character trusts. They should be able to make the appropriate Knowledge relignion checks to figure out something happened, and what you need to do to fix it. I mean he was your friend, friends don't let friends turn to the forces of darkness. Detect Evil Divination Level: Clr 1 Components: V, S, DF Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: 60 ft. Area: Cone-shaped emanation Duration: Concentration, up to 10 min./ level (D) Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No You can sense the presence of evil. The amount of information revealed depends on how long you study a particular area or subject. 1st Round: Presence or absence of evil. 2nd Round: Number of evil auras (creatures, objects, or spells) in the area and the power of the most potent evil aura present. If you are of good alignment, and the strongest evil aura’s power is overwhelming (see below), and the HD or level of the aura’s source is at least twice your character level, you are stunned for 1 round and the spell ends. 3rd Round: The power and location of each aura. If an aura is outside your line of sight, then you discern its direction but not its exact location. Aura Power: An evil aura’s power depends on the type of evil creature or object that you’re detecting and its HD, caster level, or (in the case of a cleric) class level; see the accompanying table. If an aura falls into more than one strength category, the spell indicates the stronger of the two. ———————— Aura Power ———————— Creature/Object..............Faint............... ....................Moderate............ ..........Strong............Overwhelming Evil creature(*) (HD).......10 or lower.........................11–25..... .....................26–50............51 or higher Undead (HD).....................2 or lower...........................3–8..... ........................9–20............ ....21 or higher Evil outsider (HD).............1 or lower...........................2–4..... ........................5–10............ ....11 or higher Cleric of an evil deity (**) (class levels)..........1...................... ..................2–4................... ............5–10..............11 or higher Evil magic item or spell (caster level)............2nd or lower....................3rd–8th........ ...............9th–20th.......21st or higher * Except for undead and outsiders, which have their own entries on the table. ** Some characters who are not clerics may radiate an aura of equivalent power. The class description will indicate whether this applies. Lingering Aura: An evil aura lingers after its original source dissipates (in the case of a spell) or is destroyed (in the case of a creature or magic item). If detect evil is cast and directed at such a location, the spell indicates an aura strength of dim (even weaker than a faint aura). How long the aura lingers at this dim level depends on its original power: Original Strength Duration of Lingering Aura Faint 1d6 rounds Moderate 1d6 minutes Strong 1d6x10 minutes Overwhelming 1d6 days Animals, traps, poisons, and other potential perils are not evil, and as such this spell does not detect them. Each round, you can turn to detect evil in a new area. The spell can penetrate barriers, but 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt blocks it.
Thorak 09-24-05, 09:09 PM	Alignment has very little to do with what you do. It is, as the PHB explicitly says, descriptive of your general and personal moral attitudes. If you think torturing babies is fun, you're Evil even if you've never actually tortured a baby.
mathogre 09-24-05, 10:29 PM	Okay, thank you! This makes sense. We play every other Friday. This coming Friday is our next night, so I'm trying to be prepared. When last we played, the other character had turned just at the end of the game. The actual player had been playing D&D for years, and all of us had a short discussion of what it meant to be evil. It was unclear to me from the conversation how things would be in the next game, though I understood from the begining that while I as player know he's turned, my paladin character has no reason to suspect a change. In the past I'd combed the forums regarding good and evil, alignments, paladins, etc. I've been through lots of the materials in the D&D section of the Wizards site. I've also been through the PHB, DMG, MM (not that it helps in this case), DMG II, and the first few pages of the Book of Vile Darkness from the Amazon site. I've Googled the net in general and the forums specifically for any useful information. I came here to get more insight so I'd know how this aspect of the system works. Thank you! In closing, I've found D&D to be a blast! It's a lot of work for a noob, but it's cool. My paladin character's craft is blacksmith. One of the players asked me to draw the floor plan for my blacksmith shop. ?! A book on blacksmithing, LOTS of net searches, and a little bit of walking around a room preceded a deceptively simple drawing that we never used, except in one way: I know a little about blacksmithing. ;)
Slyde Shadowdart 09-25-05, 09:02 PM	Blacksmithing is so cool. My grandfather used to be into it as a hobby. He made his own knives and some decorative stuff. His forge was awesome.
spectralphoenix 09-26-05, 05:00 AM	I'm usually on the other side during these moral absolutism arguements, but I have to agree with the others in this thread. What's important here is his perspective. The other PC read the book and magically became evil. His past actions have been good, but now he's willing to do evil things but just hasn't found the right opportunity. "Normal" alignment changes happen after evil actions because the evil actions reflect the creature becoming evil on the inside. In the PC's case he didn't become evil by himself and decide to read the book as an evil action, he opened the book and some kind of magic affect his mind which suddenly made him evil.
Lord Ian Stark 09-26-05, 05:04 AM	Now my friend Mathogre, the game is going to change vastly for you. At some point during the next game session you might notice a change in your (newly achieved evil alignment) friend. Or like you said, you may detect evil looking for something else and your friend shows up on your radar. At that point you will need to make a very important decision. Confront him immediately or quietly investigate his new side? Either way your party needs to know about this guy. Ignoring him being evil is Out Of Character IMO and depending on your DM he can have you lose your Paladin abilities. Remember a Paladin will not associate with an Evil creature. Now obviously this guy hasn't been evil all along for what you know so there is hope for this guy. Just thought I should throw that out there and if you have any more Paladin type questions please ask. :)
mathogre 09-26-05, 08:03 PM	Regarding the alignment shift, I understand and it is no longer an issue. Lord Stark, yes I know the game will change. Up until now I've been more worried about ensuring I my character is separated information-wise from me, the player. You bring up a very good point, however, about how things will change. The cool thing with my group is that they are very much into role playing. Accordingly, I know some elements of my character's background, how he had The Call to become a paladin, and some of his training. I know about his family, and why he's in the current village. He *is* a paladin, is good, won't stand for evil. Something or some things in his training have prepared him for this, and I'll need to discover same before Friday night. Thank you!!!!!! And thanks for the offer to ask more paladin related questions. I may have one or two more before the game.
Lord Ian Stark 09-26-05, 08:17 PM	No problem. You seem to be very comfortable with your character and his background so you will do just fine. I enjoy playing with high RP people too as it really makes D&D what it is. :)
mathogre 09-26-05, 11:37 PM	Lord Stark and others, In Heironeous' name, I believe I have a dilemma. Below is a description of things, some from the player perspective, some from the character perspective. My paladin is named William. The other character I'll call Qodon (not his name). Pre-alignment shift. Qodon is a non-evil, charismatic character, practiced in powerful magic. He joined us recently (prior game session), and served to advance our party. By the end of the game, Qodon had turned. The area in which we were traveling was bright with evil. Early in the last game, William saw there were no evil characters in the party. If William were to suddenly see someone evil in the party, especially someone as powerful as Qodon, his obligation is to destroy it immediately. It would be as if some evil monster had suddenly entered the room. You see an evil monster, a vile creature, you destroy it. Ideally in this situation William would catch him flat footed and smite him in the presence of others. Evil has infiltrated the party, and a powerful evil at that. There is no second chance in this case, no chance to negotiate. That Qodon was good to the party previously is irrelevant, except of course that destroying the evil that has manifested itself in Qodon honors the good he'd done in the past. There's clearly danger in smiting evil (at least according to how I interpret what I've read), especially if William doesn't stop Qodon. Having others in the party nearby provides extra support to destroying Qodon. Does that make sense? Assuming it does, now let me twist this player-wise. Qodon's player has played D&D for many years. One might call him a rules lawyer; he's clearly a knowledgeable player. He's also the brother of the woman who hosts the game, herself a knowledgeable player oriented a bit more towards RP. If I'm going to destroy one of the characters in our party, one who is played by someone close to the game host, I really would like to be sure this is a right thing to do, if not the right thing.
spectralphoenix 09-27-05, 01:12 AM	I don't play paladins for the most part, but I don't think you should kill Qodon. First of all, if you suddenly detect evil on him when he wasn't evil before, you're going to think something magical is wrong with him. Keep in mind that magical alignment change is not unknown in the D&D world. Qodon is a respected comrade if not a friend, and I can't see William just executing him out of hand. William should probably try to consult the priests of his temple (Heironeous, I assume.) They should be able to find out what's wrong with Qodon and reverse it. Additionally, from an OOC perspective, players killing players never ends well. You might want to talk to your DM and Qodon's player about your problems before you start smiting.
Lord Ian Stark 09-27-05, 03:06 AM	As long as your party members trust your word (as they should) call him out when the party is in a nonhostile area. Possibly just outside of town so no one can intervene. You guys will all just be walking down the road and all of a sudden draw your sword (but keep it down at your side) to show you mean business and tell him and the group that you feel an incredible evil upon or within Qodon that you never felt before. Ask Qodon if he knows of this and what the party thinks they should do with him. If they find out it's a magical curse then it can be undone and so forth. Again the party should go along with you as they should know of your talents by now. If they don't then you may be in a bit of a bind here however you are in the right. I would not just out right kill him as you know of his past good deeds. Give him the benefit of the doubt to explain himself and let the party and you decide what to do next. You owe him that much IMO.
pres_man 09-27-05, 05:46 AM	If William were to suddenly see someone evil in the party, especially someone as powerful as Qodon, his obligation is to destroy it immediately. It would be as if some evil monster had suddenly entered the room. You see an evil monster, a vile creature, you destroy it. Be wary of this attitude. Look at the description of Lawful Evil. Lawful Evil, “Dominator”: ... He condemns others not according to their actions but according to race, religion, homeland, or social rank. One could almost say that if you judge/condemn others based on their actions and not other issues such as race, religion, alignment, etc. then that would be good, or at least fair. Also attacking someone and killing them, when they have done no wrong is murder, even if they fight back. Paladins fight Evil without mercy, not evil beings. Personally, I agree with Stark on this, once your character learns of his leanings, then you'll either have to confront him or have your character leave the party, or both. To me it sounds like this was a contrived way for the new guy to be evil, but not start evil. That is the player wanted an evil character but the DM told him that there was a paladin in the party and an evil PC wouldn't be able to join, but they devised this little scenerio to make him evil later, once he was accepted.
mathogre 09-27-05, 09:13 AM	My reversal of thought on "evil" was driven by what was said about Qodon becoming evil because of a spell. When I thought about it, my immediate concern was for my party. Suddenly I'm in the presence of an enemy. I'd thought of talking with him, having a stand-off, but was afraid Qodon would take immediate advantage of me and the rest of my party. I have an obligation to protect my party. On the other hand, I don't believe it is right for a paladin to just kill every evil he sees. It's not exactly "life positive". Someone's always going to be stronger, so one must choose carefully. I know I need the rest of my party behind me on this. Qodon was a good person, and has helped us. I'll take Lord Stark's ideas as something William learned during his apprenticeship. Regarding Qodon doing something contrived to go from good to evil, it could be. ;) Qodon's player is the father of the DM.
Lord Ian Stark 09-27-05, 11:32 AM	I'd thought of talking with him, having a stand-off, but was afraid Qodon would take immediate advantage of me and the rest of my party. I have an obligation to protect my party. Yes you do. Well said. A strong fellowship to a Paladin ranks up there with his deity/cause. This is because a Paladin must rely on his comrads for areas of help that he can't do himself. Or do well himself I should say. I.E. traps, magic, etc... Regarding Qodon doing something contrived to go from good to evil, it could be. ;) Qodon's player is the father of the DM. Heh, that wil be an uphill battle but all in fun. ;)
q'afuu 09-27-05, 01:01 PM	Remember a Paladin will not associate with an Evil creature. Paladins will do lots of things if the situation calls for them, actually. He might not like doing them and he might have to account for them and be punished, but sometimes not doing them is still unacceptable. Early in the last game, William saw there were no evil characters in the party. If William were to suddenly see someone evil in the party, especially someone as powerful as Qodon, his obligation is to destroy it immediately. It would be as if some evil monster had suddenly entered the room. You see an evil monster, a vile creature, you destroy it. Ideally in this situation William would catch him flat footed and smite him in the presence of others. Evil has infiltrated the party, and a powerful evil at that. There is no second chance in this case, no chance to negotiate. That Qodon was good to the party previously is irrelevant, except of course that destroying the evil that has manifested itself in Qodon honors the good he'd done in the past. The paladin is under no such obligation, and can't even justify such a course of action. Qodon might be evil, he hasn't done anything that warrants punishment (let alone being put to death). Moreover, it's rather rash to act this way. An earlier Detect Evil said Qodon wasn't evil, this one says he is - shouldn't you rather try to find out what's going on exactly? Trusting DE enough to kill someone based on it, after it has given you two different readings for one person, is taking a pretty drastic and (for the most part) irreversible decision. Such a drastic alignment change in such a short time is unlikely. Maybe someone interfered with your DE, or magically masked Qodon's alignment. That's also very unlikely, but it's still possible. William's obligation is to destroy evil, not necessarily destroy everyone who is evil. Redeeming evil characters is ultimately a much better solution, if it is at all possible. On the other hand, I don't believe it is right for a paladin to just kill every evil he sees. It isn't. For one thing, because paladins are supposed to be just: a character who is evil but doesn't *do* evil is innocent of crimes (as per the above). For another, because not all evil deserves the death penalty.
KJW 09-27-05, 01:08 PM	My wife has been playing an interesting paladin in my campaign, she takes a more lawyerly approach to paladins, which reflects the god she worships. She advises the party and while the leader, she treats the company like her client or a trust, from a legal perspective. She is technically the leader, but lets majority rule guide the big decisions. In the situation described here, she would pull aside the members of the party she trusts and inform them of what she has detected and they all come up with a plan of action. In fact a similar situation did occur a few sessions ago, and the party went along quietly until the right moment and jumped the 'evil' PC and stripped him of the cursed item, but didn't actually hurt him more than a few bruises. In fact if Qodon is as powerful as you fear, you will need some of the party to back you up. And if you all come up with a plan together, they will be more likely to stick to it.
Golden Zealot 09-27-05, 02:04 PM	can i just add a little question to the end of this- alignment is just a description of your character's behaviour and general tendencies, correct? so surely if you are magically turned evil and dont like, you can just ignore it and pretty soon it will change again to suit you, or is it that if alignment is magically changed, it can only be changed back by something like an atonement? assuming this is so, are there any penalties for not sticking to a magical alignment to stop people being good forever and being called evil forever?
Escef 09-27-05, 02:10 PM	Here's how I see it. The paladin knew this individual wasn't evil before. If the paladin becomes aware of this sudden alignment shift he must carefully consider what to do. Did the paladin witness any evil acts out of this person? If not, why is he suddenly evil? This may cause the paladin to think twice about any overt action. The paladin may suspect that some foul sorcery has corrupted his comrade, and that the proper course of action is to find a way to cleanse his friend rather than destroy him. It is always a greater victory for good to redeem evil than it is to destroy it.
Thorak 09-27-05, 02:29 PM	can i just add a little question to the end of this- alignment is just a description of your character's behaviour and general tendencies, correct? No, of your "general moral and personal attitudes". Not quite the same thing. so surely if you are magically turned evil and dont like, you can just ignore it and pretty soon it will change again to suit you, or is it that if alignment is magically changed, it can only be changed back by something like an atonement? assuming this is so, are there any penalties for not sticking to a magical alignment to stop people being good forever and being called evil forever? Yes, because doing so is flagrantly metagaming. If you're suddenly Evil, you'll feel disgusted with yourself for helping people and not getting anything out of it. You'll think you were a gullible sap. You see Good as the weak controlling the strong, rather than as things should be, with the strong at the top controlling those weaker. Your entire outlook has changed, which will change how you act. Maybe not immediately, but fairly soon.
glennhefley 09-27-05, 02:38 PM	As has been stated, Paladins are a challenge. --My two coppers First of all Paladins don't kill every evil thing they see, doing so would be akin to evil itself. There has to be a reason, and death is not the punishment laid out for every crime. As was discussed, your other character just turned purple right before the Paladin's eyes. Unless he has an intelligence of 8, then he's going to know something is afoot, and be much more concerned that there is a force close by that can turn people evil, than the evil people themselves. What Paladins do react strongly to are evil-outsiders. They know that 1) they are evil and 2) they don't belong here. This mindset of theirs often confuses players. If your friend was turned into an evil outsider then there might be a problem. But the worst the Paladin would probably do is keep an eye on him, not trust everything he says on faith, and arrest him if he does something, taking him to the law of the land. He may take the friend to his clergy and ask that he be detained, until the Paladin can track down the force that turned his friend evil. In fact this is a great excuse for a quest. Something to keep in mind with DM curses... they usually turn out to be the best part of the game. We once had a PC that did something horribly bad. Not on purpose, but it was definitely his fault and cost the lives of many men women and children,... it involved a few trolls. A great wizard found out about this act and the deaths it caused in a town that he was very fond of, so he cursed the PC. Every time the PC ate anything a troll would show up 100 ft from him, walk over and beat him within 1d10 HP of his life. The troll could not be killed and vanished as soon as his beating was done. Nothing could stop the troll, though the PC fought him every time. Later the group was captured by a squad from a Drow city, and placed in cells to await the Gladiator games. Things looked bad. So, the PC ate something, the Troll came, smashing open the cells, killing off a few drow that tried to stop him from "rescuing" the group and laid out the beating. The group then escaped once they picked the poor guy off the floor. When ever a curse occurs, stop and get away from the table and think it out. Most of the time they are the most memorable times in the game.
q'afuu 09-27-05, 03:01 PM	alignment is just a description of your character's behaviour and general tendencies, correct? so surely if you are magically turned evil and dont like, you can just ignore it and pretty soon it will change again to suit you, or is it that if alignment is magically changed, it can only be changed back by something like an atonement? Your actions are determined by your alignment, not vice versa. Hence, alignment is not a description of your character's behaviour - at best, it indicates how your character is likely to act under certain circumstances. This also means your alignment can't be changed by your actions. Consistently acting in a way that's contrary to the alignment you have on paper really means your character has a different alignment than that one, one that actually is consistent with your character's actions. Other than that, consistently acting against alignment is bad roleplaying.
Ectoplasmoid 09-27-05, 06:22 PM	Under circumstances like this, If (detect.evil= true) smite(); isn't the way to go. He could just be carrying an evil artifact around. Like this. (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=202)
Lord Ian Stark 09-28-05, 12:28 AM	Like this. (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=202) LOL that was funny. :D
Golden Zealot 09-29-05, 11:06 AM	No, of your "general moral and personal attitudes". Not quite the same thing. Yes, because doing so is flagrantly metagaming. If you're suddenly Evil, you'll feel disgusted with yourself for helping people and not getting anything out of it. You'll think you were a gullible sap. You see Good as the weak controlling the strong, rather than as things should be, with the strong at the top controlling those weaker. Your entire outlook has changed, which will change how you act. Maybe not immediately, but fairly soon. but are there any rules to deal with a player who just decides he doesnt like his new alignment and so ignores it until it changes back?
spectralphoenix 09-29-05, 01:30 PM	If you read the description of the helm of opposite alignment, the character should not. His morality is magically altered. That said, if the character just ignores his alignment change, the DM should step in, and give him an XP penalty or something. That said, it's a bad idea to give out magical alignment changes to anyone unless they are a good roleplayer.
Thorak 09-29-05, 01:54 PM	but are there any rules to deal with a player who just decides he doesnt like his new alignment and so ignores it until it changes back? Sure. The same rules that prevent a player from having his blinded character magically pick the right path to walk across a trap that requires he step on specifically coloured stones. It's called hitting the player with a rolled-up newspaper and saying "bad player! Stop metagaming". If he can't roleplay the alignment he's magically compelled to play, treat him like any more direct magical compulsion; take the character from him, or at least dictate certain actions he takes. If your players are at all reasonable, though, this won't happen.
Amaranthe 09-29-05, 01:58 PM	I havn't read this whole thread, in a rush, but I just want to suggest that if I were you, I'd take this opportunity to play the "corrupt inquisitor" role.. you *think* the stuff you do is righteous, but it's really evil. You know, "Kill the infidels!" who aren't "pure" in your eyes, and all that rot. Like the Whitecloaks in Wheel of Time. :)
LordHell 09-29-05, 06:14 PM	Id like to add there is another side to this. Since Qodon joined the group recently, there is every reason for William to suspect Qodon might have always been evil and hiding his alignment. That is a more likely scenario than his alignment just 'magically' changing from Williams point of view. Now having said all that, I current play a Paladin in a campaign, and my Paladin is very much a Talk First Smite Later kind of Paladin. You dont have to smite any evil that pops up on your radar, and you probably shouldn't. Now not all Paladins have to be the same, but my Paladin would probably call a group meeting immediately and get this out in the open. It would also act to warn the other party members of a possible threat to the group. After all - there *may* be some sort of explaination for this. My Paladin does not profess to know everything about magic, and it would be a henius act to smite someone who potentially could be redeemed and turned into a powerful ally. Finally, this act will get things out in the open. I happen to suspect that presman is right - this is a little ploy by the DM and the player to play a evil character. By you bringing this out into an in character discussion you will hopefully make the DM realize what a stupid mistake it is to allow an evil character in party with a Paladin.
mathogre 09-29-05, 10:09 PM	This is going to be fun on Friday night. Thank you everyone! I don't know how things will go, but my sense is that I'll challenge Qodon in front of the party. I'll ask questions but be ready to protect my party. My sense is that William would do much as Lord Stark had suggested in post 15. I take that insight/wisdom as something William would have learned in the past. The insights from everyone else however will also help shape how William will act. There's no guarantee as to when William will see that Qodon has changed, nor is there any guarantee that he will hold the proverbial upper hand in the situation. As with anything in life, circumstances can change at random. Thank you everyone! On Saturday or Sunday I'll post how things went.
mathogre 10-01-05, 10:41 AM	Here's the update. It was a fun night with some interesting twists. We were in the middle of a dungeon crawl. One character, a ranger, was scouting ahead. He was accompanied by my cheetah. (I really got complicated with my paladin character.) As I was in armor, I stayed back. Qodon stayed back also. We were next to each other, alone. Given that we were in a place containing great evil, I occasionally looked for evil. I did a detect evil, just before Qodon was going to leave. He knew I was a paladin, and didn't want to be around. I got him legitimately. According to the DM (Qodon's player's real life son), I saw Qodon was evil and that he had something of great evil in his pack. I started to reach for my longsword, not to attack, but to challenge. He got me back with a Hold Person spell. When I was finally free, I yelled, "Qodon's evil!!!!!!!!" The ranger went after him, but he was already leaving on a flying carpet. The ranger struck him with an arrow and watched him fly away. Unknown to the party, Qodon was dedicated to his former deity whom he could no longer hear. He took the evil books, destroyed them, prayed to his deity, and - DM permitting - will be turned back to good. We'll encounter him in two weeks. ^_^ There are lots of other things that happened, but the above is what is relevant to this thread. Thank you again everyone! The story played well, and the Qodon player enjoyed the twist. So did I when he got me back.
Kaz the DM 10-01-05, 02:54 PM	:D
Lord Ian Stark 10-02-05, 04:56 AM	Here's the update... Looks like it all went well or as well as it could. How did he know you did detect evil? I smell some metagaming at the table as he may have used knowledge from RL instead of what his character knew. ;) All in all if everyone had fun han that's all that matters. :D
mathogre 10-02-05, 02:17 PM	Looks like it all went well or as well as it could. How did he know you did detect evil? I smell some metagaming at the table as he may have used knowledge from RL instead of what his character knew. ;) All in all if everyone had fun han that's all that matters. :D I think it was mostly legit. ;) We were in free action at the time. I signaled the DM (we'd worked a hand signal for Detect Evil), he passed a note to me regarding the evil auras. I looked at Qodon, said as a player, "I reach for my sword", and then he cast Hold Person on me. There was no apparent need for me to reach for my sword, so he correctly assumed he was in danger. There could have been some metagaming too. Qodon player's wife has a hearing loss, so their family knows sign language. More than once the DM and Q/player talked. Funny thing is that MY wife would appear to have a much greater hearing loss, and she doesn't use sign language. Life is funny sometimes! It was a fun night. Thanks again!!!!!!
Escef 10-02-05, 02:38 PM	Funny thing is that MY wife would appear to have a much greater hearing loss... Maybe she's just ignoring you. ;)