Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Valoy_Muniz 02-11-05, 08:51 AM	I was thing bout this yesterday when some one was helping me make a point buying pc. I have always fealt that Dex was more imporment vs con (but still imporment). Dex= range attack, ac, reflex and several skills Con=HP, fort, concentraion The save cancle eachother out and I would even say all the dex skill vs the one concentraion skill canles out. Now it is Dex=range attack and ac Vs Con= Hp I have allwas found a more as to be more of a help then a few hp as most hit that hit would do more then the extra hp but then again some spells do not care about ac and then the hp would be better. To me it come down to the fact that dex gives a range attack bounes that makes me think dex is better then con. What do you all think.
Escef 02-11-05, 09:35 AM	Depends. At low level the extra AC and ranged attack from dex are really good, especially if you're going to have a lot of ray attacks. At higher levels Con is better, because a couple points of AC won't save you and touch ACs generally suck so much that you don't need the extra dex to help. If your starting at levels 1-5 go with dex, it lets you survive long enough to get to higher levels, otherwise, go with con.
Joe Khol 02-11-05, 09:35 AM	AC and (ranged) attack bonus are both easier to boost in other ways (spells or equipment) than HP. There are also plenty of situations where AC (and certainly AC from Dex) won't save you but a couple of extra HP will. As you mention, they are both important and with points-buy you should be looking for similar scores for both but if it comes down to one or the other, I'd say Con wins the day.
Seeker95 02-11-05, 02:51 PM	If you plan to get close enough to your opponents to get hit, Con is better. If you plan to get close enough to your opponents to get hit, another class is better! For a Sorcerer, I like Dex better than Con.
The_Ditto 02-11-05, 03:07 PM	If you plan to get close enough to your opponents to get hit, Con is better. If you plan to get close enough to your opponents to get hit, another class is better! For a Sorcerer, I like Dex better than Con. :rimshot: Not that simple, in my opinion ... I do agree, if you're trying to get that close .. you might be thinking about another class .. but seriously .. what about archers? other spell casters? Just because you're hiding in the back ranks behind your tank-buddies doesn't mean you're not going to get hit .. Area effect spells are prime ... and of course, both Dex and Con help against those .. AC has a smaller impact at higher levels .. especially against archers and such .. It all depends on how much you'll need of both .. For example .. if I was playing a caster that used a lot of rays and other ranged touch attacks, that'd make it a no-brainer .. Dex it is .. On the other hand, if I planned on not taking anything (or few) spells requiring a touch .. I'd probably prefer the Con for both the concentration check .. and the extra survivability .. The extra point or two to your Ref save could be handy .. but then again, so could the extra point or two to your Fort save .. :tiphat:
Ralanost 02-11-05, 03:34 PM	For survivability I would say Con all the way! As an extreme example. I was a Spyte Faen Magister(Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed) 13th level with awsome stats. However we attacked an enemy base that we thought we had the drop on them. Wrong. I was following about twenty feet behind our reckless fighter when two dragons breathed fire down the hall. Dropped me to 0. I was about to cast a heightened Battle Healing(Greater) but rolled low on initiative and was incinerated by three fireballs from their wizards. Dex would have helped with initiative a little, but I rolled terribly low. More hit points and I might have made it. Your choice.
warok 02-11-05, 03:47 PM	Con because i like looking at the rogue/monk/ranger and saying 'i have more hp than you' also con is a key for concentration a key skill for spellcaster and it helps the fort save, which imo is a more important save than reflex
angryman 02-13-05, 10:04 PM	My wizard tried to stay out of melee as much as possible (duh), employing fly, blink, displacement et al. I remember once being improved invisible, flying 100' up and I believe also blinking and still got wasted by a fricken spell. (even though it was Meteor Swarm) I had a good REF save (+16) too, but at the end of the day, you WILL be hit, like it or not. I'd rather extra HP and FORT than AC and REF...although, ironically, if I'd had a higher DEX, I might have made the save...d'oh, stupid not making a point.
twad 02-13-05, 10:07 PM	in short.. do you want to avoid getting hit or survive when you are?
Ogre Mage 02-13-05, 10:58 PM	Do you plan to get a lot of ranged touch/ray attack spells? If the answer is yes, then I would choose DEX. If the answer is no, then CON all the way.
FreeTheSlaves 02-13-05, 11:05 PM	I feel that either/or is fine from a power-build perspective, regardless I would have a bonus in dex and con if I can help it. There are circumstances where just having a lot of HPs is more important than better AC, especially if caught flatfooted. I find myself choosing improved initiative anyway.
Edymnion 02-14-05, 12:02 AM	:rimshot: Not that simple, in my opinion ... I do agree, if you're trying to get that close .. you might be thinking about another class .. but seriously .. what about archers? other spell casters? Just because you're hiding in the back ranks behind your tank-buddies doesn't mean you're not going to get hit .. Area effect spells are prime ... and of course, both Dex and Con help against those ..Avoiding the damage is *ALWAYS* better than trying to absorb it. Area Effect spells almost always have a Reflex save for half damage. You'll need that Dex to your AC at low levels, the higher Refl saves are a good boost, and you WILL be using ranged weapons like crossbows for pretty much your first 5 levels. After that, you're going to come down to Area of Effect spells and Ranged Touch Attack spells for dealing damage. Hands down, IMO, Dex is the one you need to have the higher score in. To put it simply, you are playing a Sorcerer. You have a d4 for hitpoints. Even with a Con of 20 at lvl 1, you still won't be able to take a hit half as well as anybody else in the party, and at higher levels you shouldn't be taking hitpoint damage at all if you're playing it right. As for being able to raise the stats later on, it is no more difficult to raise Con than it is Dex. Con boosters are just as easy to make yourself as anything else, or they already exist as normal magic items you can get in the treasure. Either your DM throws one in for you, or its a moot point because you're getting your magic stuff from random rolls, in which case you should be building your own items all the sooner. You're going to be relying on ranged attacks for your entire career. Crossbows at low levels, rays and energy missle attacks at higher levels. And, as the old cliche goes, the best defense is a good offence. Kill them before they have a chance to hit you (which, don't forget, a high Dex also adds to your Init). Avoid attacks instead of trying to soak them up (you're a Sorcerer, you can't soak up hp damage, don't even try). All of this revolves around Dexterity. You can easily put a 10 in Con and never look back, but you need a good 14 in your Dex.
Kalanth 02-14-05, 12:36 AM	I would shot for the Dex, but the only real reasoning for that is because I have never put that much emphasis on my characters Con scores. A simple +1 is good enough for me, as long as the Con is not a negative, I am not worried. With a high dex, that is great for avoiding the hits, but when you play in a world that uses the combat rules strictly and you start out flat footed, you actually suffer a bit more from the high AC in that first round. You have a 20, say, because of your AC and some other items. You are flat footed and loose your Dex bonus, now you are at 16. 16 is not bad, but in that first round you might be cut down fast, especially if there are some sneaky rogues there and you can be easily identified as the caster. With the long winded way to the point over, I would say that Con should win out because that bonus doesn't fluctuate as often (or ever) as Dex would.
Escef 02-14-05, 11:24 AM	One thing people are forgeting about the dex vs. con arguement is that the dex bonus only applies once to any given situation, whereas the con bonus applies to your HP at every level. While I agree that not getting hit is a better defense than high HP, at higher levels the AC bonus from dex is not enough to protect you. At low levels it is decent, but once you hit around 10th or so it doesn't mean much against a dedicated attacker (melee or ranged). However, the con bonus to HP becomes very substantial by then. An extra 30 or 40 HP will come in useful when your defenses fail you (and they eventually will).
Kuraito 02-14-05, 12:28 PM	Really it comes down to play style. I usually perfer dex, especially because my spellcasters tend to be elves. I often put a even stat in dex and an odd stat in con, because con is retroactive. Say i roll a 16,14 and 13, i put the 16 in cha, 14 in dex and 13 in con, then i boost con at 4th level. Its worth waiting to boost your cha, and it gives you the most milage out of both con and dex. If you arn't lucky enough to get that type of array, then i'd focus on dex a bit more. I tend to shoot my spellcasters AC into orbit as much as possible, so geting hit is a rare occurance for my spellcasters (Hence my liking of elf wizards). I'd even go for a ammy of NA over the ammy of con boost, really. A con score in the 14 area is still a good thing though.
Tolby 02-14-05, 01:47 PM	I would go with con. The extra HP and boost concentration is going to big. Concentration if you are casting on the defensive is going to be a skill you use time and time again.
e-z0r 02-14-05, 06:39 PM	Con. You'll get hit anyway. In a regular dungeon crawl campaign you *will* get hit no matter how much you hang in the backrow and how big a ref save/AC you have, especially against intelligent opponents who'll see it's you casting all those lightning bolts etc.
PurdueDave 02-14-05, 08:36 PM	Both are good but if I give the nod to CON. For me it's more the fortitude save bonus vs the reflex save bonus. Reflex saves usually reduce damage and there are other ways for a mage to get around damage (prot from energy, etc.) but not so many to get around the fortitude stuff. Also, energy draining scares me.