Did the PH2 ruin the specialized wizard [Archive] - Wizards Community

Did the PH2 ruin the specialized wizard [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
thenotoriousJIM
08-20-06, 04:51 PM I am the only wizard in my group, meaning i am the only one who has EVER played a real wizard (the other guy who sometimes uses arcane casters like warmage better). So when the fighter wanted to change a feat he had taken, the DM looked at the PH2 and said that the rules for subbing things out in there were good enough. Everyone looked at them as to how they effect their characters, and agreed it was fine. I saw the problems for spell casters, but i was not planning a change, so i agreed with the ruleing.

The book allows a wizard to change 1 class abiltity, thus you can specialize at any level. The drawback is that you cannot cast spells on your list that are not restricted.

For me, i seldom use nercormancy spells so i have no problem saccing those spells. In exchange i can specailize in Divination. So for a minimal loss (that i can change back at any future level) i get a free divination spell each level.

So what stopped me from doing this at level 1. All of the spells i get. If you specialize you have to use 1 spell you learn each level on a spell from that school.

Next level i think i am going to drop Necro and something i do not use RIGHT NOW, to specailize in a school i am going to take a spell from anyways. And i can freely change this every level so i do not have to take a sup par spell due to my specail school.

I think it is interesting when people find broken rules after combineing rules from tons of books written by different people. But i hate it when a rule this simple that breaks the essense of a special wizard. I liked following rules written by wizards, but it seems like they do not bother play testing any more.
Escef
08-20-06, 05:30 PM I'll be honest, no one in any of my groups has ever played a specialist under 3e rules. The benefits are nice, but it just isn't enough most of the time. You give up some of your versitilty for an extra couple spells per spell level. You don't even get save/DC bonuses like you would under 2e rules. Would a +1 on either be game breaking? Doubtful. (Watch someone come along and prove me wrong on this somehow.) The bonus on chance to learn spells is laughable. You only need enough ranks in spellcraft to equal your highest spell level - your Int modifier, and just add 1 rank every other level. Taking 10 at this point gaurentees you learn the spell. A +2 isn't much of a bonus.

I like some of the bonus abilities for specialists in Unearthed Arcana, they at least give specialists more pizzazz. As it is now, specialist is more of a comprimise between sorcerer and wizard.
Voldar_Mecorthio
08-20-06, 06:15 PM I don't like the specialist wizard rules in 3.X either. Sztany did a good job with his ultimate wizard though, check it out (link in my sig)
thenotoriousJIM
08-20-06, 09:57 PM i half agree with you. While before i noticed this, i would only play a spec. wizard if there was another wizard/sorc in the group. There are some spells that are nice in non-combat, and as long as someone can cast it, it does not really matter. (i have not had this opportunity in a while.)

My main problem is with PH2 overall allowing players to change too much of their character. I can understand a few feats over a long time, a spell selection, skill points, or somthing else that is not that major.

But Specialist wizards are a total subclass, changeing your specailty changes the entire character. The same thing goes for rangers when they make the fighting style choice or the cleric when they pick domains.

I think they drew a poor line as to when an entire new character should be made.
B Rob
08-21-06, 12:48 AM Why don't you try to get your DM to make it easier for you to make the changes you want? I think you make a good case, and I would probably give it to you if I was the DM in this case.
Marshall
08-21-06, 12:51 AM I think it is interesting when people find broken rules after combineing rules from tons of books written by different people. But i hate it when a rule this simple that breaks the essense of a special wizard. I liked following rules written by wizards, but it seems like they do not bother play testing any more.

Uh, Changing your specialty just to learn a spell of a different school is, well, dumb. Great, so now you learned Fireball. Wow, So what? You just re-wrote your PC to save 300gp. AND all your bonus spells from 1st to 3rd level+ have to come from evocation until you level again. AND you barred yourself from learning/using another schools worth of spells for this level. AND you gave up spell completion/trigger items from another school.....

Why would you want to do this again?
Seeker95
08-21-06, 09:11 AM Did the PH2 ruin the specialized wizardNot any more than the specialist wizard rules in the PHBI did.
xox122
08-24-06, 05:42 PM I think they might have gone a little overbored with the conjuration ability. But its still awsome im usin it.;)
Shaggy
08-28-06, 10:26 AM Why would you want to do this again?
Because it is hard to find scrolls with the spells you want?

I also play a diviner with necromancy as forbidden school. I find the extra spell per level worth not having access to necromancy. On the other hand, I also have to choose one of my free spells from divination. I can only learn spells we happen to find in the adventures, those the DM randomly determines that a shopkeeper manages to get, and the two I can choose for free each level.

Recently, we killed a diviner so now I have a spellbook with most of the divination spells. There are not that many of those, so there's no point in copying most of them to my own spellbook since I have to get them as free spells anyway. There are also a number of spells from other schools I want (from level 1 and up) but havn't been able to get my hands on yet. Too bad we didn't kill a transmuter instead... ;)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
thenotoriousJIM 08-20-06, 04:51 PM	I am the only wizard in my group, meaning i am the only one who has EVER played a real wizard (the other guy who sometimes uses arcane casters like warmage better). So when the fighter wanted to change a feat he had taken, the DM looked at the PH2 and said that the rules for subbing things out in there were good enough. Everyone looked at them as to how they effect their characters, and agreed it was fine. I saw the problems for spell casters, but i was not planning a change, so i agreed with the ruleing. The book allows a wizard to change 1 class abiltity, thus you can specialize at any level. The drawback is that you cannot cast spells on your list that are not restricted. For me, i seldom use nercormancy spells so i have no problem saccing those spells. In exchange i can specailize in Divination. So for a minimal loss (that i can change back at any future level) i get a free divination spell each level. So what stopped me from doing this at level 1. All of the spells i get. If you specialize you have to use 1 spell you learn each level on a spell from that school. Next level i think i am going to drop Necro and something i do not use RIGHT NOW, to specailize in a school i am going to take a spell from anyways. And i can freely change this every level so i do not have to take a sup par spell due to my specail school. I think it is interesting when people find broken rules after combineing rules from tons of books written by different people. But i hate it when a rule this simple that breaks the essense of a special wizard. I liked following rules written by wizards, but it seems like they do not bother play testing any more.
Escef 08-20-06, 05:30 PM	I'll be honest, no one in any of my groups has ever played a specialist under 3e rules. The benefits are nice, but it just isn't enough most of the time. You give up some of your versitilty for an extra couple spells per spell level. You don't even get save/DC bonuses like you would under 2e rules. Would a +1 on either be game breaking? Doubtful. (Watch someone come along and prove me wrong on this somehow.) The bonus on chance to learn spells is laughable. You only need enough ranks in spellcraft to equal your highest spell level - your Int modifier, and just add 1 rank every other level. Taking 10 at this point gaurentees you learn the spell. A +2 isn't much of a bonus. I like some of the bonus abilities for specialists in Unearthed Arcana, they at least give specialists more pizzazz. As it is now, specialist is more of a comprimise between sorcerer and wizard.
Voldar_Mecorthio 08-20-06, 06:15 PM	I don't like the specialist wizard rules in 3.X either. Sztany did a good job with his ultimate wizard though, check it out (link in my sig)
thenotoriousJIM 08-20-06, 09:57 PM	i half agree with you. While before i noticed this, i would only play a spec. wizard if there was another wizard/sorc in the group. There are some spells that are nice in non-combat, and as long as someone can cast it, it does not really matter. (i have not had this opportunity in a while.) My main problem is with PH2 overall allowing players to change too much of their character. I can understand a few feats over a long time, a spell selection, skill points, or somthing else that is not that major. But Specialist wizards are a total subclass, changeing your specailty changes the entire character. The same thing goes for rangers when they make the fighting style choice or the cleric when they pick domains. I think they drew a poor line as to when an entire new character should be made.
B Rob 08-21-06, 12:48 AM	Why don't you try to get your DM to make it easier for you to make the changes you want? I think you make a good case, and I would probably give it to you if I was the DM in this case.
Marshall 08-21-06, 12:51 AM	I think it is interesting when people find broken rules after combineing rules from tons of books written by different people. But i hate it when a rule this simple that breaks the essense of a special wizard. I liked following rules written by wizards, but it seems like they do not bother play testing any more. Uh, Changing your specialty just to learn a spell of a different school is, well, dumb. Great, so now you learned Fireball. Wow, So what? You just re-wrote your PC to save 300gp. AND all your bonus spells from 1st to 3rd level+ have to come from evocation until you level again. AND you barred yourself from learning/using another schools worth of spells for this level. AND you gave up spell completion/trigger items from another school..... Why would you want to do this again?
Seeker95 08-21-06, 09:11 AM	Did the PH2 ruin the specialized wizardNot any more than the specialist wizard rules in the PHBI did.
xox122 08-24-06, 05:42 PM	I think they might have gone a little overbored with the conjuration ability. But its still awsome im usin it.;)
Shaggy 08-28-06, 10:26 AM	Why would you want to do this again? Because it is hard to find scrolls with the spells you want? I also play a diviner with necromancy as forbidden school. I find the extra spell per level worth not having access to necromancy. On the other hand, I also have to choose one of my free spells from divination. I can only learn spells we happen to find in the adventures, those the DM randomly determines that a shopkeeper manages to get, and the two I can choose for free each level. Recently, we killed a diviner so now I have a spellbook with most of the divination spells. There are not that many of those, so there's no point in copying most of them to my own spellbook since I have to get them as free spells anyway. There are also a number of spells from other schools I want (from level 1 and up) but havn't been able to get my hands on yet. Too bad we didn't kill a transmuter instead... ;)