Didn't know where to put this, rules question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Didn't know where to put this, rules question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Starman IX
03-04-06, 09:08 AM Say I take a first level fighter and build him. I then slap the half-dragon template on him 10 times(one for each color). Put away the tomatoes, this is just a rhetorical question. Roleplay-wise, it's impossible. Rules-wise, it's surprisingly legal. Don't try this at home, kids! OK, when said monstrousity reaches second level, can it take epic feats? Will it recieve epic base attack and saves?
Almast
03-04-06, 10:50 AM I do not believe so, as you have to be character level (not ECL) to take epic feats.
Seeker95
03-04-06, 12:17 PM Deleted: I supplied incorrect information.
Hannonac
03-04-06, 05:34 PM DMG pg 209

Monsters as epic characters.
ECL = Character Level when determining epic feats, etc. Both 3.0/3.5 are the same.

An ECL of 21+ is Epic
DanjaNinja
03-04-06, 05:38 PM Say I take a first level fighter and build him. I then slap the half-dragon template on him 10 times(one for each color).
I find this notion hilarious and now have the urge to introduce such an NPC in my game.
Rhomphaia
03-04-06, 05:51 PM I then slap the half-dragon template on him 10 times(one for each color).
Oh good lord...I can just imagine THAT New Year's Eve party...
Molitor
03-04-06, 06:39 PM [QUOTE=Starman IX] Rules-wise, it's surprisingly legal. /QUOTE]
As far as I know it's not legal, you can't apply a template to something that is already that template or creature type. At least that's what Savage Species said.
Tempest Stormwind
03-04-06, 07:17 PM As far as I know it's not legal, you can't apply a template to something that is already that template or creature type. At least that's what Savage Species said.
Sure you can. A half-dragon is type Dragon. The template can be applied to dragons.

There was a HUGE argument on the CO boards of this type back when the Mr. Roboto build surfaced, and every single argument to the contrary simply could not find any rules to back it up. Savage Species says a lot of things, and none of them clearly.

For those of you not familiar with the CO boards, Mr. Roboto was a wizard with Craft Construct who decided to build an Effigy (Complete Arcane, a machine made in the likeness of another being. Mechanically, it's a template). The thing was, his effigy was of a creature with so many templates that it was effectively a tiny god. So, after producing this astonishingly powerful machine, he cast Leomund's Secret Chest and Magic Jar. He then put his old body in the chest, and (in his shiny new mechanical uber-templated Storm Giant body) swallowed the soul crystal and the tiny chest that resulted from the Secret Chest.

The restult was one of the winners of the 100^10 competition (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=441877), which is a famous challenge to create characters with +100 or more to EVERYTHING. THAT is certainly worth a read -- and yes, it's completely possible. (LordofProcrastination is nothing short of a genius. His other works, all in his sig, are works of art.)

Anyway, to answer the OP, check the FAQ on the main website. Your answer's there, along with many others.
stordarth
03-04-06, 07:18 PM the said example would indeed be considered epic, and thus be entitled to epic feats. However, if this were an npc monster, it would not acquire epic save or attack bonuses, instead following the normal pattern shown for BAB and save progression. unless of course you really want to give it the epic progressions. the reason is, wizards ignore epic rules for pretty much every 21+HD monster in this regard, instead carrying on the regular BAB and save progressions on ad infinitum. but you could rule the other way, and give them the epic alternatives if you wish. after all, if its your game, its your rules.
Molitor
03-04-06, 11:24 PM Sure you can. A half-dragon is type Dragon. The template can be applied to dragons.
MM page 293 (3.5 of course). Notice it reads that vampires can't become liches and vice versa. I would rule that the same applies here, if you disagree then get yer groove on. Not trying to start an arguement and derail the OP's thread, I'm just responding.
Starman IX
03-04-06, 11:40 PM Yeah I was just going for silliness. Liches can't become vampires(and vice versa) because they both need living subjects. Once you're one, you don't qualify for the other. On the other hand, half-dragon just needs any living coporeal creature. Half-dragons are living and coporeal. Thus the CR 21 Beast of Doom that could probably be taken down by anyone with a touch attack/spell.
beat_takeshi
03-05-06, 05:41 AM If I was building that dragon-thing, It give it 3 ranks in cleric instead of fighter. Then drink a potion (scroll?) of invisability and cast silence on myself. In most situations you should be able to sneak up to the wizard and eat him before he can cast any spells.
Perhaps I'm talking rubbish though, I've never played any game past lvl 10
Tempest Stormwind
03-05-06, 01:54 PM MM page 293 (3.5 of course). Notice it reads that vampires can't become liches and vice versa. I would rule that the same applies here, if you disagree then get yer groove on. Not trying to start an arguement and derail the OP's thread, I'm just responding.
All quotes from SRD:

"Lich" is an acquired template that can be added to any humanoid creature....The creature’s type changes to undead.

"Vampire" is an acquired template that can be added to any humanoid or monstrous humanoid creature.... The creature’s type changes to undead (augmented humanoid or monstrous humanoid).

"Half-dragon" is an inherited template that can be added to any living, corporeal creature..... The creature’s type changes to dragon.

So, becoming a vampire changes your type to Undead, not Humanoid, and thus you cannot become a lich. Ditto for Lich into Vampire. However, Dragons are living, corporeal creatures, and thus aren't invalidated by the template.

This is to allow a half-black, half-red dragon, for instance.

Oh, and here's the link to Mr. Roboto (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7686792). I hardly think he can be taken down by one tiny touch spell. ;)
Molitor
03-05-06, 09:06 PM Whatever.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Starman IX 03-04-06, 09:08 AM	Say I take a first level fighter and build him. I then slap the half-dragon template on him 10 times(one for each color). Put away the tomatoes, this is just a rhetorical question. Roleplay-wise, it's impossible. Rules-wise, it's surprisingly legal. Don't try this at home, kids! OK, when said monstrousity reaches second level, can it take epic feats? Will it recieve epic base attack and saves?
Almast 03-04-06, 10:50 AM	I do not believe so, as you have to be character level (not ECL) to take epic feats.
Seeker95 03-04-06, 12:17 PM	Deleted: I supplied incorrect information.
Hannonac 03-04-06, 05:34 PM	DMG pg 209 Monsters as epic characters. ECL = Character Level when determining epic feats, etc. Both 3.0/3.5 are the same. An ECL of 21+ is Epic
DanjaNinja 03-04-06, 05:38 PM	Say I take a first level fighter and build him. I then slap the half-dragon template on him 10 times(one for each color). I find this notion hilarious and now have the urge to introduce such an NPC in my game.
Rhomphaia 03-04-06, 05:51 PM	I then slap the half-dragon template on him 10 times(one for each color). Oh good lord...I can just imagine THAT New Year's Eve party...
Molitor 03-04-06, 06:39 PM	[QUOTE=Starman IX] Rules-wise, it's surprisingly legal. /QUOTE] As far as I know it's not legal, you can't apply a template to something that is already that template or creature type. At least that's what Savage Species said.
Tempest Stormwind 03-04-06, 07:17 PM	As far as I know it's not legal, you can't apply a template to something that is already that template or creature type. At least that's what Savage Species said. Sure you can. A half-dragon is type Dragon. The template can be applied to dragons. There was a HUGE argument on the CO boards of this type back when the Mr. Roboto build surfaced, and every single argument to the contrary simply could not find any rules to back it up. Savage Species says a lot of things, and none of them clearly. For those of you not familiar with the CO boards, Mr. Roboto was a wizard with Craft Construct who decided to build an Effigy (Complete Arcane, a machine made in the likeness of another being. Mechanically, it's a template). The thing was, his effigy was of a creature with so many templates that it was effectively a tiny god. So, after producing this astonishingly powerful machine, he cast Leomund's Secret Chest and Magic Jar. He then put his old body in the chest, and (in his shiny new mechanical uber-templated Storm Giant body) swallowed the soul crystal and the tiny chest that resulted from the Secret Chest. The restult was one of the winners of the 100^10 competition (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=441877), which is a famous challenge to create characters with +100 or more to EVERYTHING. THAT is certainly worth a read -- and yes, it's completely possible. (LordofProcrastination is nothing short of a genius. His other works, all in his sig, are works of art.) Anyway, to answer the OP, check the FAQ on the main website. Your answer's there, along with many others.
stordarth 03-04-06, 07:18 PM	the said example would indeed be considered epic, and thus be entitled to epic feats. However, if this were an npc monster, it would not acquire epic save or attack bonuses, instead following the normal pattern shown for BAB and save progression. unless of course you really want to give it the epic progressions. the reason is, wizards ignore epic rules for pretty much every 21+HD monster in this regard, instead carrying on the regular BAB and save progressions on ad infinitum. but you could rule the other way, and give them the epic alternatives if you wish. after all, if its your game, its your rules.
Molitor 03-04-06, 11:24 PM	Sure you can. A half-dragon is type Dragon. The template can be applied to dragons. MM page 293 (3.5 of course). Notice it reads that vampires can't become liches and vice versa. I would rule that the same applies here, if you disagree then get yer groove on. Not trying to start an arguement and derail the OP's thread, I'm just responding.
Starman IX 03-04-06, 11:40 PM	Yeah I was just going for silliness. Liches can't become vampires(and vice versa) because they both need living subjects. Once you're one, you don't qualify for the other. On the other hand, half-dragon just needs any living coporeal creature. Half-dragons are living and coporeal. Thus the CR 21 Beast of Doom that could probably be taken down by anyone with a touch attack/spell.
beat_takeshi 03-05-06, 05:41 AM	If I was building that dragon-thing, It give it 3 ranks in cleric instead of fighter. Then drink a potion (scroll?) of invisability and cast silence on myself. In most situations you should be able to sneak up to the wizard and eat him before he can cast any spells. Perhaps I'm talking rubbish though, I've never played any game past lvl 10
Tempest Stormwind 03-05-06, 01:54 PM	MM page 293 (3.5 of course). Notice it reads that vampires can't become liches and vice versa. I would rule that the same applies here, if you disagree then get yer groove on. Not trying to start an arguement and derail the OP's thread, I'm just responding. All quotes from SRD: "Lich" is an acquired template that can be added to any humanoid creature....The creature’s type changes to undead. "Vampire" is an acquired template that can be added to any humanoid or monstrous humanoid creature.... The creature’s type changes to undead (augmented humanoid or monstrous humanoid). "Half-dragon" is an inherited template that can be added to any living, corporeal creature..... The creature’s type changes to dragon. So, becoming a vampire changes your type to Undead, not Humanoid, and thus you cannot become a lich. Ditto for Lich into Vampire. However, Dragons are living, corporeal creatures, and thus aren't invalidated by the template. This is to allow a half-black, half-red dragon, for instance. Oh, and here's the link to Mr. Roboto (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7686792). I hardly think he can be taken down by one tiny touch spell. ;)
Molitor 03-05-06, 09:06 PM	Whatever.