Post/Author/DateTime	Post
kadeity 08-18-07, 09:42 PM	i mean, i was pretty much positive they said that. shouldnt someone sue?
asdfff 08-18-07, 10:43 PM	NO. What they promised was no 4.0 until 2009. What they did in either case was LIE. Not "adhere to NDA by telling a nontruth." THEY LIED. Go ahead. Grip your tube of dice, wear some green color, and yell LIAR like that Romulan ambassador did in the episode of DS9. Although everything is true. Especially the (let's hear it) LIES.
asdfff 08-18-07, 10:46 PM	In an effort to censor the 4E dissent from bogarting the forum space, we're rounding up the discussion into the 4E forums, located here: http://forums.gleemax.com/forumdisplay.php?f=686 I also did something with a pebble, although you didn't see that line unless you were silenced in the DDM forums.
emperor norton 08-18-07, 11:11 PM	Wotc says a lot of things. Get used to it.
asdfff 08-18-07, 11:20 PM	OH come on, you went to all the trouble of posting in this thread, with its title and OP, to say that? Join in the fun a little! kadeity: When do you remember the 2012 number? Don't have to post to the interview, just the general context of what you remember. Personally, my 2009 number is the standard line previously fed to FLGS owners and other retailers. I don't know where the 2012 number is from but it doesn't sound far fetched as a previous 'truth', like how we're currently at war with Eurasia but I could have sworn it was Eastasia.
captainswift 08-18-07, 11:44 PM	Wasn't 2012 the date on the April Fool's 4e thread from 2004? I'm pretty sure that's where that came from.
Reinforcements 08-19-07, 12:14 AM	NO. What they promised was no 4.0 until 2009. What they did in either case was LIE. Not "adhere to NDA by telling a nontruth." THEY LIED. Go ahead. Grip your tube of dice, wear some green color, and yell LIAR like that Romulan ambassador did in the episode of DS9. Although everything is true. Especially the (let's hear it) LIES. Yeah. Unless someone can show me this mysterious promise, I'm PRETTY sure that's not true.
Grandpa Gamer 08-19-07, 12:23 AM	NO. What they promised was no 4.0 until 2009. What they did in either case was LIE. Not "adhere to NDA by telling a nontruth." THEY LIED. Go ahead. Grip your tube of dice, wear some green color, and yell LIAR like that Romulan ambassador did in the episode of DS9. Although everything is true. Especially the (let's hear it) LIES. When you're confronted by your spouse/partner/squeeze-of-the-month about sneaking something into the house, do you blab about her birthday present, or do you lie? When your Mother calls, asking how her sweetykins is doing at work, do you childishly whine about your bastard-boss and retard-coworkers, or do you lie? Even "good Christians" lie to hide the Christmas gifts! Did Wizards of the Coast lie to keep the surprise a surprise? Of course they did. As anyone in marketing can tell you, you need to build anticipation before the product even hits the shelves. Like trailers for movies 'coming soon', commercials for TV shows 'this Fall', "excerpts" from that author's next book. WotC was using the whole licensing hooplah to build attention, then a big splashy presentation and some teaser info to create anticipation for the new system. This is a business, after all. Business means revenue. Revenue means product being sold. In respects to Dungeons & Dragons, that product is books, miniatures, dungeon tiles, etc. Has everybody forgotten why TSR 'spiraled-in' to begin with? Once everyone in the game had the books they wanted, they simply stopped buying - so no revenue. No matter how good (opinions differ on this, by the way :D ) the product, at some point the market becomes saturated, and the product needs to change. After all, you can have just SO MANY flavors-of-the-month **cough**Skills-and-Powers**cough**Frostburn**cough** before it all becomes just old news. Cars have model-years to keep them current, but Ford can tinker with the F150's electronics and upholstery only just so much before buyers become bored and start looking at other trucks. Eventually you need to design a whole new vehicle. That's how we got 3e, remember? And let's be honest, 3.5e was essentially a "service pack" for D&D - just like Microsoft Windows. I am admittedly intrigued by what I have read so far. Intrigued enough to replace my entire gaming library - especially at $39.99 a pop? Honestly, no. Not anytime soon. But later, when I and my group are more comfortable with it, probably, eventually. Hell, we still use the 3e core, just because we didn't see enough of a difference to be worth the expense! And THAT'S what WotC is going to have to overcome. THAT'S what WotC needs to accomplish. They need to convince me that it's worth the time and money to learn a new set of game mechanics yet again.
Von_Harbringer 08-19-07, 12:36 AM	Nah... 2012 is when 4.5 comes out. :rolleyes:
mearrin69 08-19-07, 03:31 AM	...shouldnt someone sue? Yes. Yes. Do call your lawyer. He might even handle the case pro bono. Let me know how it turns out. Whoops. Forgot to add a smiley. Oh, which smiley do you use for facetiousness? For the record, however, I don't remember ever seeing a date from anyone 'official' at WoTC. The important date for me is June 2008, because that's when the rest of my 3.5 books become available a lot more cheaply - when all of the folk currently claiming they won't buy 4e sell them to me at a discount before running off to buy the new core books. M
Witch 08-19-07, 03:50 AM	I wasn't aware that lying when not under oath was a criminal offence, now. I find what WotC did loathable - although not what any particular employee did -, and I think 4E is unnecessary from the perspective of the gamer, but I doubt you'll be able to sue. Ofcourse, I hear Americans sue for the stupidest of things, so I wouldn't be surprised if it works.
Perrin_Goldeneyes 08-19-07, 04:13 AM	You know...:plotting: Whenever they do decide to put out 4e, it doesn't mean you have to stop playing 3.5 or before:schemes:
IrishRover 08-19-07, 10:43 AM	Just remember...Big American corporations (meaning any bigger than a Mom and Pop shop) lie regularly. I can't quite pinpoint if Wizards did, but that diesn't matter: It's a corporation, so anything it says is likely to be a lie. So what's the surprise?
asdfff 08-19-07, 11:35 AM	@ Grandpa Gamer; Irish Rover: Great! I am as glad as you are that we all agree on one thing: WOTC LIED. LIES. "It's a FAAAAAAAAAKE" "They are all true, especially the lies" Man, haven't star trek taught you guys anything? Or do you guys get your moral lessons from the D&D animated series? "As you may know, there are those out there who attempt to influence the content of childrens' television. We call them "parents groups," although many are not comprised of parents, or at least not of folks whose primary interest is as parents. Study them and you'll find a wide array of agendum at work...and I suspect that, in some cases, their stated goals are far from their real goals. Nevertheless, they all seek to make kidvid more enriching and redeeming, at least by their definitions, and at the time, they had enough clout to cause the networks to yield. Consultants were brought in and we, the folks who were writing cartoons, were ordered to include certain "pro-social" morals in our shows. At the time, the dominant "pro-social" moral was as follows: The group is always right...the complainer is always wrong." This was the message of way too many eighties' cartoon shows. If all your friends want to go get pizza and you want a burger, you should bow to the will of the majority and go get pizza with them. There was even a show for one season on CBS called The Get-Along Gang, which was dedicated unabashedly to this principle. Each week, whichever member of the gang didn't get along with the gang learned the error of his or her ways. We were forced to insert this "lesson" in D & D, which is why Eric was always saying, "I don't want to do that" and paying for his social recalcitrance. I thought it was forced and repetitive, but I especially objected to the lesson. I don't believe you should always go along with the group. What about thinking for yourself? What about developing your own personality and viewpoint? What about doing things because you decide they're the right thing to do, not because the majority ruled and you got outvoted? We weren't allowed to teach any of that. We had to teach kids to join gangs. And then to do whatever the rest of the gang wanted to do. What a stupid thing to teach children.
theotherdraxen 08-19-07, 11:54 AM	asdfff, where is that quote from? I'd really appreciate a source.
IrishRover 08-19-07, 11:55 AM	@ Grandpa Gamer; Irish Rover: Great! I am as glad as you are that we all agree on one thing: WOTC LIED. LIES. "It's a FAAAAAAAAAKE" "They are all true, especially the lies" Man, haven't star trek taught you guys anything? Or do you guys get your moral lessons from the D&D animated series? I did not say that Wizards lied, just that I don't know for sure if they did. I just said that, since they are a big corporation, you shouldn't be surprised if they do lie. (I haven't disected the posts to see who said what, I just assumed that there were bald faced lies in there.)
asdfff 08-19-07, 11:56 AM	asdfff, where is that quote from? I'd really appreciate a source. It's straight from the creator of the show himself. He's been feeling guilty about it ever since. http://www.povonline.com/cols/COL145.htm
Zousha_Omenohu 08-19-07, 12:40 PM	Ya know, I think Garfield parodied those kind of shows at one point. The will of the group was enforced by safes mysteriously falling on the dissenter. The actor went nuts, started yelling into the camera that children need to have their own opinions, and the other members of the cast pulled him away and started brawling with him! The strange things you see in cartoons!:rolleyes:
ArcTan 08-19-07, 01:29 PM	No, they did not promise no 4e until 2012. Nor did they promise no 4e until 2009. I've never heard one single reliable report of WotC promising anything about 4e, and I was around in the rampant speculation threads before this came out. People liked to slap down people predicting 4e by pointing out WotC had never said 4e *was* coming out, without a shred of positive evidence of WotC saying 4e *was not* coming out. There was no lying involved here, people.
asdfff 08-19-07, 01:33 PM	No, they did not promise no 4e until 2012. Nor did they promise no 4e until 2009. I've never heard one single reliable report of WotC promising anything about 4e, and I was around in the rampant speculation threads before this came out. People liked to slap down people predicting 4e by pointing out WotC had never said 4e *was* coming out, without a shred of positive evidence of WotC saying 4e *was not* coming out. There was no lying involved here, people. WRONG Ask any retailer who's been to a con. Until this announcement, Wotc reps states, to their physical faces, that 4e is not coming out until 2009. I've got news for you. If you're in the rampant speculation page, you're going to be reading rampant speculation. LIES ARE TOLD. Retailers are stuck with stock. What there isn't here, "people", is getting any relevant facts from real sources.
ArcTan 08-19-07, 01:41 PM	WRONG Ask any retailer who's been to a con. Until this announcement, Wotc reps states, to their physical faces, that 4e is not coming out until 2009. I've got news for you. If you're in the rampant speculation page, you're going to be reading rampant speculation. LIES ARE TOLD. Retailers are stuck with stock. What there isn't here, "people", is getting any relevant facts from real sources. Show me your proof.
WizO_Brak 08-19-07, 02:42 PM	Thank you for your concerns of 4E. However, in an attempt to keep this very important topic from overwhelming the rest of the boards, I'm going to ask that you continue it in the 4E forums, located here: http://forums.gleemax.com/forumdisplay.php?f=686 ~Brak