Discipline ability [Archive] - Wizards Community

Discipline ability [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
anamiac
03-11-06, 07:01 PM Hey, I've come up with a 7th ability, called Discipline. I'd like to know what you all think of it. Here's how it works:

Bonus feats are reliant on Discipline.
Discipline modifier Levels at which you get bonus feats
-4 ------ 2, 7, 11, 17
-3 ------ 2, 6, 10, 15, 19
-2 ------ 2, 5, 9, 13, 17
-1 ------ 2, 4, 8, 11, 15, 18
0 ------- 1, 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18 (just like normal)
+1 ------ 1, 3, 5, 8, 11, 13, 16, 18
+2 ------ 1, 2, 5, 7, 10, 12, 14, 17, 19
+3 ------ 1, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 20
+4 ------ 1, 2, 3, 5, 7, 8, 10, 12, 13, 15, 17, 18, 20
+5 ------ 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 8, 9, 10, 12, 13, 14, 16, 17, 18, 20
+6 ------ 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 18, 19, 20
+7 or higher: 1 bonus feat per level

This would also affect how many spells a sorcerer knows per level, and how many a wizard gains per level.
Here's the wizard table:
-4 ------ 0 free new spells per level,
-3 ------ .5 free new spell per level
-2 ------ 1 free new spell per level
-1 ------ 1.5 free new spell per level
0 ------- 2 free new spells per level
+1 ------ 2.5 free new spell per level
+2 ------ 3 free new spell per level
+3 ------ 3.5 free new spell per level
+4 ------ 4 free new spell per level
+5 ------ 4.5 free new spell per level
etc...
A sorcerer with a high discipline would have a larger number of spells known. Discipline does not affect how many spells a character can cast in a day.
I guess Discipline would affect how many spells the bard knows as well, but wouldn't affect druids, rangers, and clerics, as they are divine spell casters and know all the spells in their level

In addition, certain classes (monk, Paladin) Would require a high Discipline level (ie 14 or higher). Other classes (Rogue, Barbarian, Bard) Would require a lower Discipline level. (ie, not higher than 13)

Will saves would be based on Discipline, not Wisdom

I Know some of you will dislike some or all of these ideas. I'm looking for some thoughtful feedback, not people saying that they don't like to think about things different than how the've gotten used to them.
Seeker95
03-11-06, 07:16 PM Here is what I don't like about the idea...

You are turning a single new stat into a mega-need. As you have written, it affects spellcasting abilities of sorcerers, wizards and abrds. It further affects (restricts) access to paladin and monk classes. It changes one third of all saving throws.

The only thing you haven't done with it is explain... why?
What is the purpose, other than moving things around?
anamiac
03-11-06, 07:39 PM Basically, The discipline attribute is to account for the fact that in real life, two students might be just as smart as each other, just as strong, etc... but one spends all his free time studying and practicing, while the other wastes his time. Does this make a difference? Not currently in D&D.

This attribute would have a large effect on roleplaying. Someone with a low discipline would be someone more focused on instant gratification, while someone with higher discipline would be better able to control his anger, be more patient, and better at looking into the long term.

Also, it seems rational to think that some wizards could learn spells as they go up levels at a faster rate than others because they try harder. Fighters who spend more time practicing learn more cool moves. Currently neither of these categories are affected by any other attribute, and it makes sense that they should be affected by something.

Lastly, there are no skill points/checks based on discipline. Discipline doesn't effect things much in the short run, its effects are most seen in the long run.

I hadn't given much thought as to this attribute being too powerful. I had worried it would be a throwaway stat. For the sake of balancing, Wisdom could be left as the will save component.
Seeker95
03-11-06, 08:26 PM Discipline doesn't effect things much in the short run, its effects are most seen in the long run.Which is a reflection of reality. The disciplined player (reflecting said discipline in his or her character) has a great deal of long term impact. Sticking to a character build plan, keeping long term objectives intact, these are the tools of discipline.Lastly, there are no skill points/checks based on discipline.If you really want an in-game mechanic around the concept of discipline, I would make it a Feat or a Skill.

As a Feat, perhaps it is a 5% experience point bonus for as long as the character does not multi-class (reflecting dedication to a single pursuit). The first PrC taken would not count as multi-classing.

Or maybe as a skill, it applies half its ranks to checks using any skills that were chosen at 1st level, reflecting continued perseverence in a skillset.

It just doesn't seem to fit as an ability score / stat attribute.
Phael
03-11-06, 09:16 PM Actually there is already a game mechanic in place to represent this. Are you ready for it . . . wait for it . . . wait . . for . . it . . . okay here it is: Experience Points

That's right, experience points. Wait, wait, before you get up out of your seat all upset and protesting allow me to explain.

The lazy student and the disciplined student, we'll call them Harry and Bob, both have a major exam on Friday. Harry lays around the house, watches tv, and does nothing. Bob goes to the library, pulls all the books he can find, joins a study group, and takes extensive notes for himself on the subject.

The lazy fighter and the disciplined fighter, we'll call them Thug and Krug, both have major arch-enemies. Thug lays around the tavern, boasts to the wenches, and gets drunk. Krug goes on a 5-day trek across a dangerous wasteland, fights dozens of underlings in his search for his enemy, and spends hours drilling with his weapons.

Back to Harry and Bob. It's Friday, the day of exam is upon them. Harry frantically searches his brain for the answers, but there's nothing. Bob smiles and calmly fills in each answer. Can you guess who bombed and who passed?

Over to Thug and Krug. Their arch-enemies have found or been found by the two entrepid fighters. Thug's bravado is gone. He desparately fights, but he has no strategy, his enemy out manuevers him every time. He grows more and more tired every time he swings his sword. Krug smiles grimly. He's studied his opponent's every fighting tatic, he knows exactly how to counter every devious move. The villian falters, his sword drops . . Krug moves in for the kill.

The aftermath.

Harry flunked, Bob passed. Bob can proudly say "I understand the principles of the laws of thermodynamics". Bob carries his knowledge and his scholastic abilities onto the next class and the next tests.

Thug is defeated, Krug is victorious. Krug holds up his sword and says "I have defeated an evil cleric of Nerul". Krug carries his strength and his tatics onto the next bad guy.

My friends, this is the essence of experience points.

It gets even better! Experience point influence all kinds of things, so the better experience points you have, the more abilities you get! You can gain class levels, and with class levels you can gain bonus to ability points, more feats, special abilities - heck you can even use your experience points to create powerful magical items. Yep, experience points are truely useful things.
LCD2YOU
03-11-06, 10:14 PM One can use Wisdom to do the same thing as well.

If a player states, well my character is going to do, "X, Y and Z" in town, then they bettre be prepared to RP it if they really want to be take seriously. Otherwise, if they have a low Wisdom, they fall under that accursed spell, Procrastination.

It effectively does the same thing. The Wizard says he wants to take a week out first to make a few scrolls, have him do a Wisdom check. Fighter says she's going to need to see if she has the real desire, ie make a Wisdom check, do actually do what she said she was going to do.

The Wizard goes to get some supplies or read up on the best way to make scrolls. While in the library, he finds a book completed unrelated but in a fascinating field none the less on "Origins on Eye of Newt" in common alchemetical formula. The Fighter, well, she goes to the bar and drinks while picking up chicks.

As for other classes that use Wisdom as a pre-requisite like Druid, Cleric and most notably Rogue (yeah Rogues use Wisdom all the time right? :P ) they have other issues to deal with.

"Excuse me there my good Cleric. Weze heard yuose was in town. Well seems my girls have come down with this nasty rash....."

"What do you mean there's nothing like a park that I can hang out in so I can be close to nature!?!"

"Yes Madam Paladin. Don't worry, there's nothing for you to do here. All of the orphans have been selected by rich families from neighbor lands. Yes they have been so selected! The kids are to be taken care of by a rich family. Some of these rich families paid a lot of money to have the chance of taking care of this young, sweet and oh so ready kids."

Wisdom is already there and I think that it adds too much complexity to the game already as you have it, but then again, it's not my game but yours.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
anamiac 03-11-06, 07:01 PM	Hey, I've come up with a 7th ability, called Discipline. I'd like to know what you all think of it. Here's how it works: Bonus feats are reliant on Discipline. Discipline modifier Levels at which you get bonus feats -4 ------ 2, 7, 11, 17 -3 ------ 2, 6, 10, 15, 19 -2 ------ 2, 5, 9, 13, 17 -1 ------ 2, 4, 8, 11, 15, 18 0 ------- 1, 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18 (just like normal) +1 ------ 1, 3, 5, 8, 11, 13, 16, 18 +2 ------ 1, 2, 5, 7, 10, 12, 14, 17, 19 +3 ------ 1, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 20 +4 ------ 1, 2, 3, 5, 7, 8, 10, 12, 13, 15, 17, 18, 20 +5 ------ 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 8, 9, 10, 12, 13, 14, 16, 17, 18, 20 +6 ------ 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 18, 19, 20 +7 or higher: 1 bonus feat per level This would also affect how many spells a sorcerer knows per level, and how many a wizard gains per level. Here's the wizard table: -4 ------ 0 free new spells per level, -3 ------ .5 free new spell per level -2 ------ 1 free new spell per level -1 ------ 1.5 free new spell per level 0 ------- 2 free new spells per level +1 ------ 2.5 free new spell per level +2 ------ 3 free new spell per level +3 ------ 3.5 free new spell per level +4 ------ 4 free new spell per level +5 ------ 4.5 free new spell per level etc... A sorcerer with a high discipline would have a larger number of spells known. Discipline does not affect how many spells a character can cast in a day. I guess Discipline would affect how many spells the bard knows as well, but wouldn't affect druids, rangers, and clerics, as they are divine spell casters and know all the spells in their level In addition, certain classes (monk, Paladin) Would require a high Discipline level (ie 14 or higher). Other classes (Rogue, Barbarian, Bard) Would require a lower Discipline level. (ie, not higher than 13) Will saves would be based on Discipline, not Wisdom I Know some of you will dislike some or all of these ideas. I'm looking for some thoughtful feedback, not people saying that they don't like to think about things different than how the've gotten used to them.
Seeker95 03-11-06, 07:16 PM	Here is what I don't like about the idea... You are turning a single new stat into a mega-need. As you have written, it affects spellcasting abilities of sorcerers, wizards and abrds. It further affects (restricts) access to paladin and monk classes. It changes one third of all saving throws. The only thing you haven't done with it is explain... why? What is the purpose, other than moving things around?
anamiac 03-11-06, 07:39 PM	Basically, The discipline attribute is to account for the fact that in real life, two students might be just as smart as each other, just as strong, etc... but one spends all his free time studying and practicing, while the other wastes his time. Does this make a difference? Not currently in D&D. This attribute would have a large effect on roleplaying. Someone with a low discipline would be someone more focused on instant gratification, while someone with higher discipline would be better able to control his anger, be more patient, and better at looking into the long term. Also, it seems rational to think that some wizards could learn spells as they go up levels at a faster rate than others because they try harder. Fighters who spend more time practicing learn more cool moves. Currently neither of these categories are affected by any other attribute, and it makes sense that they should be affected by something. Lastly, there are no skill points/checks based on discipline. Discipline doesn't effect things much in the short run, its effects are most seen in the long run. I hadn't given much thought as to this attribute being too powerful. I had worried it would be a throwaway stat. For the sake of balancing, Wisdom could be left as the will save component.
Seeker95 03-11-06, 08:26 PM	Discipline doesn't effect things much in the short run, its effects are most seen in the long run.Which is a reflection of reality. The disciplined player (reflecting said discipline in his or her character) has a great deal of long term impact. Sticking to a character build plan, keeping long term objectives intact, these are the tools of discipline.Lastly, there are no skill points/checks based on discipline.If you really want an in-game mechanic around the concept of discipline, I would make it a Feat or a Skill. As a Feat, perhaps it is a 5% experience point bonus for as long as the character does not multi-class (reflecting dedication to a single pursuit). The first PrC taken would not count as multi-classing. Or maybe as a skill, it applies half its ranks to checks using any skills that were chosen at 1st level, reflecting continued perseverence in a skillset. It just doesn't seem to fit as an ability score / stat attribute.
Phael 03-11-06, 09:16 PM	Actually there is already a game mechanic in place to represent this. Are you ready for it . . . wait for it . . . wait . . for . . it . . . okay here it is: Experience Points That's right, experience points. Wait, wait, before you get up out of your seat all upset and protesting allow me to explain. The lazy student and the disciplined student, we'll call them Harry and Bob, both have a major exam on Friday. Harry lays around the house, watches tv, and does nothing. Bob goes to the library, pulls all the books he can find, joins a study group, and takes extensive notes for himself on the subject. The lazy fighter and the disciplined fighter, we'll call them Thug and Krug, both have major arch-enemies. Thug lays around the tavern, boasts to the wenches, and gets drunk. Krug goes on a 5-day trek across a dangerous wasteland, fights dozens of underlings in his search for his enemy, and spends hours drilling with his weapons. Back to Harry and Bob. It's Friday, the day of exam is upon them. Harry frantically searches his brain for the answers, but there's nothing. Bob smiles and calmly fills in each answer. Can you guess who bombed and who passed? Over to Thug and Krug. Their arch-enemies have found or been found by the two entrepid fighters. Thug's bravado is gone. He desparately fights, but he has no strategy, his enemy out manuevers him every time. He grows more and more tired every time he swings his sword. Krug smiles grimly. He's studied his opponent's every fighting tatic, he knows exactly how to counter every devious move. The villian falters, his sword drops . . Krug moves in for the kill. The aftermath. Harry flunked, Bob passed. Bob can proudly say "I understand the principles of the laws of thermodynamics". Bob carries his knowledge and his scholastic abilities onto the next class and the next tests. Thug is defeated, Krug is victorious. Krug holds up his sword and says "I have defeated an evil cleric of Nerul". Krug carries his strength and his tatics onto the next bad guy. My friends, this is the essence of experience points. It gets even better! Experience point influence all kinds of things, so the better experience points you have, the more abilities you get! You can gain class levels, and with class levels you can gain bonus to ability points, more feats, special abilities - heck you can even use your experience points to create powerful magical items. Yep, experience points are truely useful things.
LCD2YOU 03-11-06, 10:14 PM	One can use Wisdom to do the same thing as well. If a player states, well my character is going to do, "X, Y and Z" in town, then they bettre be prepared to RP it if they really want to be take seriously. Otherwise, if they have a low Wisdom, they fall under that accursed spell, Procrastination. It effectively does the same thing. The Wizard says he wants to take a week out first to make a few scrolls, have him do a Wisdom check. Fighter says she's going to need to see if she has the real desire, ie make a Wisdom check, do actually do what she said she was going to do. The Wizard goes to get some supplies or read up on the best way to make scrolls. While in the library, he finds a book completed unrelated but in a fascinating field none the less on "Origins on Eye of Newt" in common alchemetical formula. The Fighter, well, she goes to the bar and drinks while picking up chicks. As for other classes that use Wisdom as a pre-requisite like Druid, Cleric and most notably Rogue (yeah Rogues use Wisdom all the time right? :P ) they have other issues to deal with. "Excuse me there my good Cleric. Weze heard yuose was in town. Well seems my girls have come down with this nasty rash....." "What do you mean there's nothing like a park that I can hang out in so I can be close to nature!?!" "Yes Madam Paladin. Don't worry, there's nothing for you to do here. All of the orphans have been selected by rich families from neighbor lands. Yes they have been so selected! The kids are to be taken care of by a rich family. Some of these rich families paid a lot of money to have the chance of taking care of this young, sweet and oh so ready kids." Wisdom is already there and I think that it adds too much complexity to the game already as you have it, but then again, it's not my game but yours.