Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MagicMouth 08-11-07, 07:05 PM	The Warcraft games are quite popular indeed, and I can safely assume that there are a lot of other posters out there who love both Dungeons & Dragons and Warcraft. This thread is for you. One of the main points of this thread is to discuss how the various heroes, villains, creatures and entities of Warcraft are best represented using the D&D rules. Iīm quite aware of the fact that there are many d20 RPG books already dealing with this (and I happen to own several of them), but not everyone wants to buy/use them: perhaps they donīt think itīs balanced, want to spend their money on other books, or just prefer a creative challenge. The other main point is to post the stats of these characters. That way you can display your creations as well as seeing what other people have brough forth. Anything from the appropriate statistics of an average Grunt, Footman or other game unit, to heroes and villains such as Thrall and Illidan, to the Dragon Aspects or Old Gods themselves. Try to use standard D&D rules: that is, material published by WotC and therefore better known by most on these boards. This is not a demand, merely a recommendation. If you use some material found on the Internet a link would probably be appreciated. Needless to say, there will probably be spoilers for some or all of the games in the series. Hopefully people will refrain from posting the plot twists of the most recent time, but I cannot guarantee anything. If you have yet to play the older games, you may want to steer clear if you prefer to find out the plot on your own. Here are a few guidelines. 1) Posting stats As I said above, please feel free to post your stats for the various characters – no matter if itīs just the basic alignment/race/class/level line or a complete statistics block – in whatever format you prefer. However, if they take up a lot of space I would appreciate if you kept them within spoiler blocks: if you donīt know how to do it, you put your text within tags like this {sblock}stats{/sblock}, replacing “{“ with “(“. 2) Be ready to explain Seeing as this is a discussion forum, you should be prepared to explain why you think as you do. Granted, claiming that Malfurion is a Druid or that Jaina is a Wizard will probably not result in any great debates, but there are other characters and creatures who might be a bit more difficult to explain in D&D terms. For an example, you could have a look at what I think of Arthas in one of the posts below. 3) In-game vs. Lore When you play the games youīll probably notice that some moments donīt really fit with the established lore. For example, in Warcraft II: Beyond the Dark Portal, Deathwing is a playable character for the Horde side, but have merely a fraction of the power he is later attributed (“...he offered a threat with the potential to dwarf that of the Horde.” – Day of the Dragon, page 3). This is largely due to retconning, but the fact remains that Blizzard needs to create a balanced game. The point is that, when designing the characters, one may have to look beyond their in-game stats, though one should hold these in consideration as well. 4) Behave yourselves Now, some of you may have issues with how the most recent Warcraft games have handled the world, or perhaps you consider the older ones to be useless relics. However, this is not the place to rant about this, and it would likely just result in a flame war bringing down the entire thread. Also, if you disagree with another posterīs version of the characters and have to respond, please be calm and constructive. If need be, Iīll post a character/creature index here.
MagicMouth 08-11-07, 07:06 PM	Character Level: How high? In Warcraft RPG: Manual of Monsters and Shadows & Light most of the famous characters are put between Level 20 and 30, with a few exceptionally powerful ones (such as Malfurion, Illidan and Medivh) in their mid-30s and beyond. If you compare with many of the legendary characters from Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms, this would be an appropriate option. However, there are probably people out there who think that the majority should have much lower levels, and I can certainly understand their viewpoint; most heroics both in-game and in the lore could probably be accomplished by characters below epic (this doesnīt mean that there are no epic level characters, only that they are more rare). In the end, itīs a matter of personal taste, and I hope we can accept each otherīs preferences. Gestalt? I think several characters are quite difficult to pin down when it comes to class and level, due to them demonstrating powers and abilities of different kinds (again, in D&D terms) for example. One option is to give them higher character levels, but there is also the possibility of making them Gestalt. Pro: They can be of relatively low levels, or simply remain very high-level Con: There are also many characters who can easily be built using the normal system (such as Malfurion the Druid), and adding further classes aside the main one(s) could be quite redundant. Divine Ranks (DvR) There are several creatures in the Warcraft universe that have near-deific power: the Dragon Aspects, Cenarius, KilĻjaeden, the Titans, the Old Gods, and more. In the official Warcraft RPG, these beings are given the Eternal template from Shadows & Light. However, in this thread weīre trying to build things using the standard D&D rules, and this brings up the issue regarding Divine Ranks. These beings are generally not worshipped in the same sense as standard D&D gods, though at the DM`s discretion Clerics who follow them may be granted Domains anyway. When it comes to DvR, it could be used “merely” as a way to measure the power of these godlike creatures. Virtual Divine Ranks, I suppose. Note that anything above DvR 5 should be extremely rare, as most deities and the like mentioned in the lore are given demigod status (or the equivalent thereof). In other words, DvR of 0-5 unless thereīs a really good reason for why it should be higher (and remember that differences in sheer power could be the result of higher HD and/or class levels).
MagicMouth 08-11-07, 07:06 PM	Below Iīve written my thoughts regarding a few of the greatest villains of the Warcraft world. In time Iīll probably present my ideas about other characters as well, and of course Iīll try to respond to some the things you post. Arthas Cleric / Crusader (Tome of Battle) Yup, I did something drastic there. No Paladin and/or Blackguard levels? Well, I think this version captures the right flavor both before and after his betrayal. The Cleric levels gives Arthas access to holy/unholy spells that can easily work as Holy Light or Death Coil, for example. Also, this way you donīt have to do a complicated rebuild after he succumbs to Nerīzhulīs will: he “simply” does the equivalent of a conversion to another faith. In addition, Cleric levels give him much greater command over the undead in comparsion with (for example) the Blackguard. I mean, even when he was greatly weakened he was able to turn a particularily large and powerful Blue Dragon (Sapphiron), into an intelligent undead servant (and not a mere zombie dragon). The Crusader levels gives him the toughness and martial prowess appropriate for one of the mightiest warriors in the world. White Raven maneuvers also explain his great leadership and influence over his minions (represented in-game by Devotion/Unholy Aura). Deathwing DvR 0-2 Advanced Great Wyrm Black Dragon [Warcraft version] Quite an abomination indeed. He is obviously an epic-level enemy, but thatīs what you would expect from a corrupted, power-hungry Dragon Aspect, isnīt it? I decided to give him a Divine Rank because – as stated above – he is one of the five mighty Dragon Aspects, originally empowered by the Titans to watch over the world. And as far as I know, his corruption did not diminish this power: he could even be more powerful in his current state (albeit utterly insane). However, he is not a true demigod like Cenarius: these deities would receive higher ranks. Granting Deathwing a DvR is also a way to give him additional powers (a.k.a. Salient Divine abilities) tied to his “portfolio”. As I stated above, I think that in the Warcraft universe itīs acceptable for beings of this nature to have Divine Ranks even if they donīt have worshippers in the same sense as standard D&D gods. Being many thousands of years old and likely the largest dragon in existence, I felt that Deathwing was best represented as a Dragon advanced beyond even the Great Wyrm stage (see the Epic Level Handbook or the SRD). This gives him great physical power, but also increases his caster level: he is a potent spellcaster with many powers at his command and the ability to easily counter the divinations of some of the most powerful archmages of the Kirin Tor (as demonstrated in Day of the Dragon). As for possible class levels... I donīt think theyīre necessary, but feel free to post your ideas and suggestions. The other Dragon Aspects would be built using the same general guidelines. The Lich King (Nerīzhul) This is a tricky one, and I will refrain from posting any specific stats for now. Levels in Cleric was one of my first thoughts, seeing as he used to be a prominent shaman before his transformation, and it also gives him great powers over the undead. However, I think the Lich King feels more like an arcane spellcaster in his current state. Wizard, perhaps? Mystic Theurge? True Necromancer (Libris Mortis)? Another option would be the Dread Necromancer from Heroes of Horror, because of its necromantic spells and powers. However, this could limit him somewhat as that class lacks many more evocative spells (I think he should have access to a vast array of cold spells, at least). Additionally, the Lich King is described as a being with enormous psionic powers. Levels in Psion, maybe? Or perhaps just a lot of psionic spell-like abilities? In any case, I think a permanent version of the Fusion power is a good, D&D-compatible explanation for the ascension at the end of The Frozen Throne (with the exception that Arthas and Nerīzhul are now one in both body and spirit, so there is no “controller” and no “spectator”). This also makes the new Lich King an even more monstrously powerful being. In other words, just as it should be. :devil: Finally, I found this (http://community.dicefreaks.com/viewtopic.php?t=311&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=585) writeup over at DiceFreaks some time ago. You might want to check it out (itīs about halfway down the page).
Kensan_Oni 08-11-07, 07:23 PM	Not that I mind covering territory that Sword and Sorcery Studio is already covering... but wouldn't this find a better home in the Campaign Workshop, instead of in General?
MagicMouth 08-11-07, 07:42 PM	Yes, I was a bit unsure about where to put it. I guess I thought the Campaign Workshop would require a bit more substance... oh well, Iīll blame it on being tired. :D Unfortunately, I donīt know how to move it. Or is it the WizOs who deal with these things?
Holy_Beholder 08-11-07, 07:45 PM	A grunt would probably be a mid level orc fighter, you can buy an additional two levels for them later. The wisps have an explosive ability that drains power points and spell slots.
runestar 08-11-07, 10:46 PM	Some of the stats in the warcraft books definitely need updating, if they are to be of any threat in 3.5 (many of them suffer from the same "multiclassed to uselessness" syndrome plaguing many of the FR npcs). For example, Kael was statted as a wiz15/fighter14. Try explaining why that is a cr29. Still, this gives us a good threshold with which to work with. 3.5 offers prcs like the eldritch knight, spellsword and abjurant champion, so you are really spoiled for choice when deciding on how to restat him. Maybe something like fighter1/wiz5/EK10/AC5/spellsword1/Ek11+? I have no idea what deathwing is supposed to be, but you could consider the dragon ascendant prc in draconomicon. So he would be an advanced great wyrm black with all 12 lvs in it? Sapphiron (IIRC? that blue dragon you got to raise in the expansion) - great wyrm blue dragon with dracolich template? I agree with Arthas not being a paladin - this cannot account for his abilities such as resurrection (his healing coil could still be explained as some sort of lay-on hands variant). Maybe a paladin/cleric multiclass?
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 08-12-07, 12:46 AM	For example, Kael was statted as a wiz15/fighter14. Try explaining why that is a cr29. His ownership of what, a half-dozen artifacts? probably has some contribution towards it.
runestar 08-12-07, 01:02 AM	His ownership of what, a half-dozen artifacts? probably has some contribution towards it. What sort of artifacts? I have only played the strategy game, so if this is some new feature in WoW, I won't know about it. Still, I doubt it won't be anything I can't replicate using the lv29 npc wealth guidelines.:) That and npc classes' cr is seriously problematic. When you consider that an elder titan is cr30, a wiz30 suddenly pales in comparison. I would probably peg a wiz15/fighter14 at cr16-17 at most. And maybe my EK build at cr24-25? Illidan was a rogue7/fighter8/sorc20, IIRC (or was that rogue8 and fighter7?) ToB seems to be order as well.
MagicMouth 08-12-07, 08:02 AM	Some of the stats in the warcraft books definitely need updating, if they are to be of any threat in 3.5 (many of them suffer from the same "multiclassed to uselessness" syndrome plaguing many of the FR npcs). Yeah, thatīs what I thought. When I was new to the system and took a look at that kind of NPC:s I thought "Woah :eek:". Now when I have more experience Iīve begun to notice glaring weaknesses. For example, Kael was statted as a wiz15/fighter14. Try explaining why that is a cr29. Still, this gives us a good threshold with which to work with. 3.5 offers prcs like the eldritch knight, spellsword and abjurant champion, so you are really spoiled for choice when deciding on how to restat him. Maybe something like fighter1/wiz5/EK10/AC5/spellsword1/Ek11+? Sounds good. I wonīt be able to make him myself, though, seeing as I donīt have Complete Warrior at home, and I donīt even know where Abjurant champion is from (although Iīve heard of it before). Iīll leave it up to you and/or other ambitious members to stat him out further. I have no idea what deathwing is supposed to be, but you could consider the dragon ascendant prc in draconomicon. So he would be an advanced great wyrm black with all 12 lvs in it? It seems you and I think alike, my friend. I did consider Dragon Ascendant at first, but eventually decided to leave class levels out for now. I also thought about giving him levels in Bloodscaled Fury, but that class seemed a bit to "savage" for Deathwing - even if he could certainly fly into a destructive rage, he was also a highly intelligent and patient master manipulator. Sapphiron (IIRC? that blue dragon you got to raise in the expansion) - great wyrm blue dragon with dracolich template? *nods* Yup, that would probably be the most accurate representation. The only problem would be that (Draco)Liches canīt be created in the same way as other undead creatures. Unless Arthas knew a special Epic spell, that is. I agree with Arthas not being a paladin - this cannot account for his abilities such as resurrection (his healing coil could still be explained as some sort of lay-on hands variant). Maybe a paladin/cleric multiclass? That would also work nicely. One of the reasons I chose Crusader instead of another holy/unholy warrior class is that you donīt have to rebuild him after the fall. Before - Good >>> Neutral Cleric/Crusader. After - Evil Cleric/Crusader That and npc classes' cr is seriously problematic. When you consider that an elder titan is cr30, a wiz30 suddenly pales in comparison. I would probably peg a wiz15/fighter14 at cr16-17 at most. And maybe my EK build at cr24-25? From what I can tell, DiceFreaks often uses +2 levels = +1 CR after Level 20. Using that method, your build would indeed land at about 24-25. Illidan was a rogue7/fighter8/sorc20, IIRC (or was that rogue8 and fighter7?) ToB seems to be order as well. It is Rogue 8 and Fighter 7. And yes, I thought about replacing those with Swordsage levels - alongside Grom Hellscream, Illidan was the most ToB-ish character in my opinion. Also, some of those Sorcerer levels could be replaced by some demonic spellcaster PrC. Ideas, anyone? Remember that Illidan was a skilled warrior as well, so heīs probaby some sort of Gish/Martial Adept.
runestar 08-12-07, 09:24 AM	*nods* Yup, that would probably be the most accurate representation. The only problem would be that (Draco)Liches canīt be created in the same way as other undead creatures. Unless Arthas knew a special Epic spell, that is. Screw the actual procedure, gloss over the technicalities and just slap it on.;) Illidan didn't really cast that many spells in the game, and those he had weren't really that powerful. Immolation might be some sort of fireshield spell, I suppose, though if you can find a spell which injures all around you, all the better. Cannot think of a dnd equivalent of manaburn though. I don't own ToB either, so I can't help you there, so the next best thing was contemplating lvs in monk, since it is supposed to be fairly adept at wizard-slaying (or so these boards contend), but I just could not reconcile the lawful alignment requirement. If you lack splatbooks, then I suppose Kael could simply be a fighter/wizard/eldritch knight build. Jaina should be easy - high lv wiz, maybe with archmage lvs, perhaps with emphasis on conjuration and evocation. Kel'Thu'zad - epic wizard with lich template. Seems straightforward enough. Sylvanus - ranger with those arrow spells from champions of ruin?....but what about her mind control ability? I don't feel like multiclassing her, so I was contemplating having her work her way up to epic spellcasting (rough, requires 6 epic feats) for the ability to cast enslave (or a more efficient version, if you can craft one).:P What other npcs are there? It has been a very long time since I last played warcraft, so my memory is quite fuzzy...
MagicMouth 08-12-07, 12:24 PM	Screw the actual procedure, gloss over the technicalities and just slap it on.;) True, true. :D Illidan didn't really cast that many spells in the game, and those he had weren't really that powerful. Immolation might be some sort of fireshield spell, I suppose, though if you can find a spell which injures all around you, all the better. Cannot think of a dnd equivalent of manaburn though. I don't own ToB either, so I can't help you there, so the next best thing was contemplating lvs in monk, since it is supposed to be fairly adept at wizard-slaying (or so these boards contend), but I just could not reconcile the lawful alignment requirement. Indeed, his in-game magic wasnīt very powerful, but in the lore (such as in the book The Well of Eternity) he is described as being an unusually gifted sorcerer, and this was during the era when Night Elves were masters of arcane magic. So, perhaps Sorcerer 12-16 or something? And regarding the Monk issue, I think there is a Chaos Monk variant. Not sure whether Illidan should be NE or CE, though. In any case, we should be careful not to do something like a Sorcerer18/Monk18, as you talked about above. So, any good synergies between spellcaster and agile warrior that you know of? There is a PrC in Tome of Battle, called the Jade Phoenix Mage, that combines Martial Adept and Arcane Spellcaster, but if you donīt have that book... If you lack splatbooks, then I suppose Kael could simply be a fighter/wizard/eldritch knight build. Oh, I donīt personally own many, but my group has a whole bunch. However, these books are as always on the other side of town in a closed basement, so I donīt have access to them right now. Your build is the most reasonable so far, so go ahead if you want to develop it further. Sylvanus - ranger with those arrow spells from champions of ruin?....but what about her mind control ability? I don't feel like multiclassing her, so I was contemplating having her work her way up to epic spellcasting (rough, requires 6 epic feats) for the ability to cast enslave (or a more efficient version, if you can craft one).:P Out of curiosity, how would that method work? Otherwise, perhaps she could be assigned an undead template which gives the Domination power (other than Vampire)? The fact that she Charm is permanent in-game could be explained by repeated castings "off-screen", so to speak. What other npcs are there? It has been a very long time since I last played warcraft, so my memory is quite fuzzy... Well, if you count the most prominent ones in Warcraft III and The Frozen Throne (both living and dead): Thrall, Far Seer Grom, Blademaster Cairne, Tauren Chieftain Uther, Paladin Muradin, Mountain King Malfurion, Keeper of the Grove Tyrande, Priestess of the Moon Maiev, Warden Lady Vashj, Sea Witch Anubīarak, Crypt Lord Archimonde, Eredar Warlock Kilījaeden, Eredar Warlock Mannoroth, Pit Lord Tichondrius, Dreadlord Varimathras, Dreadlord There are many others, both in that game and earlier ones, but this list could suffice for now.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 08-12-07, 02:20 PM	What sort of artifacts? I have only played the strategy game, so if this is some new feature in WoW, I won't know about it. Still, I doubt it won't be anything I can't replicate using the lv29 npc wealth guidelines.:) Kael's statted up with multiple high-powered artifacts, both minor and major, in addition to normal level 29 NPC wealth. Off hand, I can think of his armor, which is full plate without ASF and a number of other goodies.
runestar 08-13-07, 06:32 AM	The more I think about Arthas, the more I wonder if he might be some sort of cleric/marshal multiclass. Healing light --> cure light wounds, Divine shield --> sanctuary, Devotion --> appropriate aura. He can't be a paladin as the dnd paladin mimics the warcraft paladin very poorly. However, I found the prestige paladin (PP) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040206a) prc in UA and wonder if a marshal/cleric/PP might be doable. You just need the first 3 lvs of the PP as that grants the most abilities, and you do not want to lose too much spellcasting. Same for Uther. I was maybe thinking something like marshal2/cleric4/PP3 (for starters) to simulate Arthas at lower lvs (before 6th lv). Higher lvs would have him take more cleric lvs (for access to more potent curative magic and more importantly, resurrection). When he falls, he trades in his PP lvs for blackguard. His spellcasting dips a little, but he still retains the ability to cast his clerical spells, including animate dead and create undead. Unfortunately, unholy aura is replicated very poorly here. Malfurion would probably be a straight druid (tranquility = rejuvenation variant from PHB2???). Tyrande - ??? Maiev - not sure either. The conjurer1 variant in PHB2 is perfect for its abrupt jaunt ability (can teleport up to 10ft 3+int mod/day as immediate action). Fan of knives = Storm of throws epic feat? Some lvs in ranger and rogue seem apt. What "bounty hunter" themed prcs are there? Thrall is more tricky. The closest I can come up with is some sort of diviner/barb multiclass combo (few lvs of barb to explain his "ruggedness", and for his weapon prof). At least diviner13 for greater scrying, chain lightning is self-explanatory, Summon monster6 has the celestial dire lion (closest I could find without being too high lv, so you can use summon monster7 or 8 or summon multiple copies). At the moment, Diviner13/barb3/loremasterX?
runestar 08-13-07, 07:09 AM	Note - Because of the weird auto-logout bug, I am unable to effectively edit my existing posts, thus leaving me with little alternative but to make a new, separate post. Please don't see this as some sort of bump.:) Grom - psywarrior/fighter and psy-weapon master (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827d)? I am at a loss with what to do for mirror image and invis, and am reluctant to take lvs in sorc just for them. Carin - minotaur with lvs in psychic warrior? ToB classes? The problem is that it won't really have that much hp. Muradin - PGTF has the hammer of moradin prc - seems like a perfect fit. Druid of the claw/talon - PHB2 seems like a godsend, with both shapeshifter (ferocious slayer/aeriel form) and rejuvenation class variants. The Dreadlords, Anub-Arak, Vshaj, and the Eradars will probably have to be custom creations, and I cannot find any examples of sentient undead beetles in any splatbook.:P The dreadlords look visually somewhat like the pit fiends, which might be doable in a pinch after you have revised their selection of SLAs to suit each particular dreadlord. Rain of fire --> meteor swarm, Sleep --> deep slumber/symbol of sleep? Infernal --> ???
MagicMouth 08-13-07, 01:38 PM	The more I think about Arthas, the more I wonder if he might be some sort of cleric/marshal multiclass. Healing light --> cure light wounds, Divine shield --> sanctuary, Devotion --> appropriate aura. He can't be a paladin as the dnd paladin mimics the warcraft paladin very poorly. However, I found the prestige paladin (PP) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040206a) prc in UA and wonder if a marshal/cleric/PP might be doable. You just need the first 3 lvs of the PP as that grants the most abilities, and you do not want to lose too much spellcasting. Same for Uther. I was maybe thinking something like marshal2/cleric4/PP3 (for starters) to simulate Arthas at lower lvs (before 6th lv). Higher lvs would have him take more cleric lvs (for access to more potent curative magic and more importantly, resurrection). When he falls, he trades in his PP lvs for blackguard. His spellcasting dips a little, but he still retains the ability to cast his clerical spells, including animate dead and create undead. Unfortunately, unholy aura is replicated very poorly here. Brilliant, that sounds really good too. :clap: If memory serves, there is also a Eberron-specific PrC (Bone Knight?) which gives both a near-full spellcasting progression and martial prowess (and necromantic abilities, of course). Might be added in place of or in addition to Blackguard, if anybody has the book. All in all, itīs a good thing that we come up with different solutions to represent the characters, so that people with different books can appreciate the thread and choose what fits them best. For example, I love the Tome of Battle and like to find characters who could be well represented using its rules. But there are those who donīt own it and/or donīt like it, so other options are nice. In other words, everyone should feel free to post the builds or stats for characters even if theyīve already been covered. The more the merrier. :D Tyrande - ??? Well, I think Cleric levels would be appropriate, given her Priestess status. She could also have levels in a more martial class/PrC to account for her skill with the bow. The Warpriest from Complete Warrior, perhaps? I donīt have the book at hand, so Iīm not sure... if memory serves, one of the preqs is the War domain, and I doubt Elune has that in her portfolio. Maiev - not sure either. The conjurer1 variant in PHB2 is perfect for its abrupt jaunt ability (can teleport up to 10ft 3+int mod/day as immediate action). Fan of knives = Storm of throws epic feat? Some lvs in ranger and rogue seem apt. What "bounty hunter" themed prcs are there? For her Blink ability, the Swordsage has access to Shadow Hand maneuvers that let her teleport short distances through shadows. Or she could be a Ranger/Rogue with the Martial Study feat (these specific maneuvers have no requirements of knowing previous maneuvers, so they can be taken as soon as she is high-enough level). As for the bounty hunter theme, there is the Bloodhound from Complete Adventurer and/or the Justicar from Complete Warrior. So, perhaps she is a Ranger/Rogue/Bloodhound/Justicar (with Swordsage levels or Martial Study thrown in the mix)? Thrall is more tricky. The closest I can come up with is some sort of diviner/barb multiclass combo (few lvs of barb to explain his "ruggedness", and for his weapon prof). At least diviner13 for greater scrying, chain lightning is self-explanatory, Summon monster6 has the celestial dire lion (closest I could find without being too high lv, so you can use summon monster7 or 8 or summon multiple copies). At the moment, Diviner13/barb3/loremasterX? Hmm, that could work, although he feels more like a divine spellcaster to me. I thought he could be a Cleric or Spirit Shaman (Complete divine), with Fighter or Warblade levels to represent his early gladiator life and further martial lifestyle. If heīs a Cleric, perhaps the Warpriest again? By the way, isnīt there a Warchief PrC in Miniatures Handbook? :D Donīt know what it grants, but if you go by its name it sounds like something that could work well.
MagicMouth 08-13-07, 02:03 PM	Grom - psywarrior/fighter and psy-weapon master (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827d)? I am at a loss with what to do for mirror image and invis, and am reluctant to take lvs in sorc just for them. Heh. I was wondering how to replicate those special tricks withour resorting to spellcaster levels (something utterly unfitting for Grom), and Psionics didnīt even cross my mind. :D I was thinking about a Barbarian/Swordsage/(Frenzied Berserker?). To me the Barbarian levels seem appropriate because of his temper, rage and thirst for battle (Frenzied Berserker might be overdoing it, though, and his lust for combat taken to the extreme could just as well be roleplayed out). The Swordsage levels wouldnīt be the perfect representation of his Blademaster abilities, but some maneuvers could capture the flavor of having special tricks up your sleeve (such as Cloak of Deception, which turns you invisible for a short time). Carin - minotaur with lvs in psychic warrior? ToB classes? The problem is that it won't really have that much hp. Ah, yes, Cairne is a tricky one. Barbarian would give a lot of punching and staying power, but he hardly seems like the type to fly into a battle frenzy. Seeing as Tauren used to be quite nomadic, and that Cairne is an elder of the race: levels in Ranger and/or Horizon Walker (I thought about Scout, but itīs a bit to nimble and movement-oriented for a hulking Tauren Chieftain)? And perhaps Fighter to give some more hit points and combat feats. Sooo... Fighter/Ranger/Horizon Walker? Neither the two-weapon fighting nor the archery style fit, though. Not sure how to replicate his spiritual side and abilities: a full caster would be overdoing it a bit, I think. Muradin - PGTF has the hammer of moradin prc - seems like a perfect fit. Donīt have that book, Iīm afraid, but by its name alone it sound like a proper choice. He could also learn a few Stone Dragon maneuvers (Iīm starting to sound like a broken record, arenīt I :() to represent abilities such as Bash and Thunder Clap: powerful and with the might of the mountain behind them. Druid of the claw/talon - PHB2 seems like a godsend, with both shapeshifter (ferocious slayer/aeriel form) and rejuvenation class variants. Agreed, the PHBII Shapeshifter variant should be the standard in a Warcraft campaign (an all others as well, but thatīs the subject of a different thread :P). The Dreadlords, Anub-Arak, Vshaj, and the Eradars will probably have to be custom creations, and I cannot find any examples of sentient undead beetles in any splatbook.:P The dreadlords look visually somewhat like the pit fiends, which might be doable in a pinch after you have revised their selection of SLAs to suit each particular dreadlord. Rain of fire --> meteor swarm, Sleep --> deep slumber/symbol of sleep? Infernal --> ???The Pit Fiend sounds good for Dreadlord, at least the more powerful ones. Then again, there are just about a quarter of a million different fiends spread throughout the various splat- and monster books. Some of those might fit as well. There are probably some spellcasting sort of fiend in some monster book that could represent the Eredar. In Manual of Monsters every single one of them can cast spells like at least a 20th level Sorcerer, but I think that is far too powerful. 1) There are lower-level Eredar as enemies in The Frozen Throne 2) Such power would be ridiculously higher than that of the Draenei with which they share a heritage (yup, Burning Crusade did some major lore twist). 3) Spoiler for The Sundering: If memory serves, Rhonin fought and even caused major damage to an entire Eredar Warlock team. Now, powerful he may have been, but I doubt Rhonin would have been high-level enough to handle several CR 23 creatures. EDIT: As for the Nerubians (and by extension the Crypt Fiends and Crypt Lords), perhaps they could be created by adding some sort of arachnoid or insectile template to a good base creature. Their most prominent abilities would be poison, a climb speed, resistance or ouright immunity to mind-affecting spells, and perhaps also some web attack? Maybe adding the Insectile template (Savage Species) to an appropriate monster, perhaps having to bend the rules to give it to an "illegal" creature?
MagicMouth 08-13-07, 06:28 PM	Oops, pressed the wrong button.:embarrass
runestar 08-14-07, 12:11 AM	What about some of the more basic units? Human Footman - human fighter, but how many lvs? Does 4 seem okay, or too much for a basic unit? Rifleman - dwarf...fighter (with emphasis on ranged feats)? Or scout? Knight - I am tempted to just say higher lv fighter, but what about the knight class? Priest - elf cleric Sorc - elf sorc (for invis, slow and baleful polymorph), but does sorc10 seem too much? Spell breaker - no idea... Gryphon rider - use aglarond griffin rider from Unapproachable east, and use appropriate weaponry. Dragonhawk rider - mount = giant eagle with half-dragon template? Rider = gish? Orc Grunt - orc barb6? Too much? Headhunter - one gripe is that the MM trolls are too strong for warcraft purposes. Shaman - orc adept/hexer? Witch doctor - ??? Spirit walker - spirit shaman should suffice. Raider - ??? Rogue/barbs?
MagicMouth 08-14-07, 06:17 AM	Iīd probably give Grunts, Footmen and the like a few levels in Warrior in most cases, unless theyīre more experienced ones, in which case higher level and/or PC classes would be in order. But hey, to each his own. As for spellcasters, I guess their level would depend on how much theyīve been uppgraded. :tongue: Spell breaker - no idea... Gryphon rider - use aglarond griffin rider from Unapproachable east, and use appropriate weaponry. Dragonhawk rider - mount = giant eagle with half-dragon template? Rider = gish? Witch doctor - ??? The Spell Breaker is a difficult one. A specialized Gish, I guess. Donīt have Unapproachable East, but that sounds good. Nice idea about the Dragonhawk Rider. Donīt know if they have a Breath Weapon, though. The Witch Doctor could be an altered version of the Runecaster from Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, perhaps? For the record, I think the character levels in Manual of Monsters and Shadows & Light are a bit too high in many cases: as it is now, almost everyone is epic. Iīll probably put most in the 15th-20th level range, and a few of the real heavy hitters in the epic levels: Arthas, Gulīdan, Illidan, Malfurion, Medivh, The Lich King (the spirit of Nerīzhul, that is), and the various godlike entities. Some that are potentially epic would, in my opinion, be Anduin Lothar, Grom Hellscream, Orgrim Doomhammer, Tyrande, and a few more. I think Arthas could be about 15th-18th level by the time he defeated MalīGanis, and 25th-30th at the time of his ascension (Arthas has no official stats as far as I know, but The Lich King had 42 HD, and seeing as it was Arthasī body I guess that makes him 42nd level in that book :eek:). But as I said earlier, itīs a matter of personal preferences.
MagicMouth 08-15-07, 04:07 AM	Well, yesterday I decided to try to actually assign class and levels to many of the major characters, instead of speculating. Below I combined my own ideas with those presented by runestar. Please feel free to comment. In time Iīll also try to create complete statistics for them. Unless otherwise noted, these would be their levels somewhere between the end of The Frozen Throne and the beginning of World of Warcraft Arthas (Alliance): Cleric 8 / Marshall 3 / Prestige Paladin 3 This would be somewhere around the time when he was Northrend in pursuit of MalīGanis. Arthas (Scourge): Cleric 13 / Marshall 4 / Blackguard 13 Around the final battle with Illidan, just before merging with Nerīzhul. Cairne: Barbarian 13 / Horizon Walker 3 In Unearthed Arcana there is a Barbarian variant which takes away Rage and grants the Favored Enemy and Archery Combat Style of Rangers. Perhaps switching the archery feats with melee ones of equivalent power (probably something to enhance two-handed weapon fighting)? Grom Hellscream: Barbarian 12 / Fighter 4 / Swordsage 4 Shortly after arriving in Kalimdor, before the battle with Cenarius. Illidan: Sorcerer 10 / Swordsage 7 / [Jade Phoenix Mage] 10 Well, I took a look at the Jade Phoenix Mage from Tome of Battle I mentioned earlier, and... itīs almost perfect for Illidan, if you just make some small changes to its abilities (and obviously youīll have to reflavor it). Its most notable ability is Firebird Stance, that enhances fire spells and fire resistance as well as giving a flaming aura for the cost of an arcane spell. The PrC can also sacrifice spells to enhance melee prowess and is in other ways a combination betwen spellcaster and nimble fighter. Jaina Proudmoore: Wizard 13 / Archmage 4 Kaelīthas: Wizard 5 / Fighter 2 / Eldritch Knight 7 / Spellsword 5 KelīThuzad: Wizard 18 / Archmage 3 Using the DiceFreaks Lich template (http://community.dicefreaks.com/viewtopic.php?t=33), and then giving him a bunch of appropriate Salient Abilities (Rebuke Undead, for example). Lich King (Nerīzhul): Spirit Shaman 3 / Wizard 10 / Mystic Theurge 20 Another DiceFreaks Lich, but of a higher rank and with even nastier Salient Abilities. Lich King (new): Gestalt-ish combination of Arthas and Nerīzhul. Maiev: Ranger 6 / Rogue 5 / Bloodhound 8 Just before pursuing Illidan to Outland. Malfurion: Druid 23 (both PHBII Variants) / Hierophant 5 Medivh: Sorcerer 30 At the time of his death. Muradin: Fighter 6 / Scout 8 (if not using the Hammer of Moradin PrC, that is). Shortly after having joined Arthas in Northrend. Thrall: Spirit Shaman 13 / Warblade 5 Uther: Cleric 9 / Marshall 4 / Prestige Paladin 6 While fighting the Scourge in Lordaeron.
MagicMouth 01-14-08, 05:05 PM	*Cough*In case anybody else is interested... I havenīt worked much on this project since the thread died, but a while back I statted up Illidan as a Sorcerer / Swordsage / “Demon Hunter” (a modified Jade Phoenix Mage). Eventually I realized that combo wasnīt all that great: I mean, he is supposed to be a good warrior, but his BAB and hit points were a bit lacking. Instead I gave him levels in Warblade. After working on that for a while I realized that levels in Duskblade (Playerīs Handbook II) rather than Sorcerer would make him more effective and focused, although it wouldnīt fit his early background as much (letīs just say he used the retraining rules from the same book :D). I donīt have access to it personally, but my group does, so hopefully Iīll manage to rebuild him. A Duskblade/Warblade/”Demon Hunter” would be nice and cool both thematically and statistically speaking, I think. But if anybody is interested perhaps I could finish up my original build and post it? Iīve also done some work on Grom Hellscream, and he currently looks like a Barbarian 14/Fighter 4/Swordsage 2. While Gulīdan is quite dead, he was a prominent character in his lifetime. I think levels in Wizard would be a good base, perhaps eventually PrCing into the Diabolist from Book of Vile Darkness? I could also see him as a Wizard / Nar Demonbinder (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030502a&page=2 ) / Ultimate Magus (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061010a&page=3). No, technically you canīt combine Wizard and Nar Demonbinder like that because the latter usually donīt have access to 1st level spells, but you can take a feat that grants spells, such as Arcane Disciple or Mother Cyst, and now it works (thanks to Phoenix00 and his Ultimate Magus Handbook for pointing this out :)). I donīt have access to Complete Arcane and Complete Mage, but there is probably some appropriate stuff in those as well. As for Arthas... his base class build still looks like a Cleric/Crusader or a Cleric/Marshal to me, but Iīve been looking for some more prestige classes that might fit as well. Although I donīt own Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, I know that book has a PrC (Knight of the Raven) that has full BAB, +9/10 divine spellcasting AND 8/10 advancement in Turn Undead. I donīt know what you think, but that sounds like a great choice for him (while he was still good, at least). You just have to reflavor it (and change some class abilities that donīt fit, such as the raven companion). Otherwise, I guess Fist of Raziel (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20031012a) could work. Evil Arthas could replace those PrC levels with some in Bone Knight from Five Nations, as I mentioned earlier. Or does anybody know of some other warrior/divine spellcaster/undead controller PrC? The Lich King is one tricky bastard: Nerīzhul was originally a powerful shaman (=Spirit Shaman?), but in his current form he seems more like an arcane caster of some sort, or perhaps even a psionic? I plan to use a high-rank (=Epic) lich template from DiceFreaks which could cover his undead-controlling abilities, so classes with Rebuke Undead isnīt an absolute must. Some sort of Spirit Shaman / [arcane spellcaster] / Mystic Theurge? There are several other dual spell/power progression PrCs out there, perhaps one of those would be better? I would love to hear other peopleīs thoughts and ideas on this. Oh, and if any WizOīs think this is the wrong section of the boards, please feel free to move it. :shifty:
MagicMouth 01-16-08, 10:21 AM	Fun with more major NPCs! I managed to find that Hammer of Moradin (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040305a), and it really does fit Muradin (and Mountain Kings in general) wonderfully. The only problem would be the requirement to be able to cast 2nd level divine spells, and Muradin doesnīt feel much like a spellcaster to me. Besides, HoM doesnīt progress spellcasting at all. On that basis, I would conveniently ignore that particular requirement. I doubt itīll unbalance him. Crusader/Fighter/Hammer of Moradin seems good enough, especially if he focuses purely on Stone Dragon maneuvers. His Avatar ability in the game could be represented by an item that can cast Righteous Might. I imagine Sylvanas as some sort of archer gish based on the Ranger. After some snooping around on the Character Optimization board, I thought a Ranger / Sorcerer / Spellsword / Arcane Archer / Eldritch Knight could fit the bill. As for Tyrande, she would be a Cleric with one or two fitting PrCs thrown in the mix: War Priest doesnīt sound so bad, she is after all a stalwart defender of her people. Before I considered throwing in some Fighter or Ranger levels to represent her archery skills, but then I realized that the clerical archer archetype would be more than decent enough. While all the 3.5 books allow us to make Kael a more effective gish, I do wonder why he wouldnīt be a pure spellcaster with focus on fiery evocation spells. I mean, he doesnīt seem much like a warrior to me in the games. Therefore I suggest weīll start him out as a Wizard and then give him levels in a prestige class which adds a lot of firepower.
MagicMouth 01-16-08, 02:03 PM	And now for some more basic units/creatures. Abomination: Flesh Golem seems like the obvious choice here, perhaps advancing it if you think itīs too weak. Then youīll probably want to add a disease attack or disease cloud, but that should only increase the CR by one point or so. Ancient: Advanced Treant. Banshee: Seems to me like a Ghost with the Malevolence and Frightful Moan abilities. They would need class levels though, for that I suggest either Sorcerer or Hexblade/Warlock. Doom Guard: Horned Devil. Dragonspawn: Dracotaur (Monster Manual III). The Spit Fire ability should be altered to take different dragon breeds into account (Blue Dracotaur would get Spit Cold, Green would get Spit Acid, and so on). Keeper of the Grove: Centaur with the Woodling template (Monster Manual III) and a bunch of Druid class levels. Alternatively, instead of Centaur as the base you could use the Tauric template from Savage Species. Nerubian: The Araneaīs stats and abilities look appropriate enough, but removing itīs shapechanging ability would likely alter itīs CR. Ogre: Using the same stats as in Monster Manual for ordinary ones, and then slapping the Multiheaded template from Savage species to get the two-headed variety (or just use Ettin). To get Ogre Magi you take the two-headed ogre and add some magical template that also increases the mental ability scores, and then adding some appropriate class levels as well. That would be all for now.
ArcTan 01-16-08, 06:33 PM	The Lich King (Nerīzhul) This is a tricky one, and I will refrain from posting any specific stats for now. Pre-Frozen Throne Ner'zhul (Ner'zhul the Orc Shaman) and post-Frozen Throne Ner'zhul (the bodiless Lich King) are so different as to basically be different entities. I think the easiest way to handle it would be to say that the original Ner'Zhul was an Orc Shaman (i.e. an ordinary Orc with Cleric levels) and that Ner'Zhul as he is now has a unique Incorporeal Undead template applied to that original Ner'Zhul, turning him into an Epic-level creature. Whether you want to stat Lich King Arthas as a single creature with yet another template applied to him or as ordinary Arthas possessed by Ner'Zhul (using the BoVD rules for Fiendish Possession) is up to you.
pigknight 01-16-08, 11:29 PM	Scaling WoW to DnD (I play both) WoW: 70 = DnD: 12-14 (at most). Really, the casters are not using 9th level spells and they aren't all that powerful, so I'm stating out the characters at lvl 20, except Arthas (Lich King) who's level 30. And why does Kael have fighter levels.
MagicMouth 01-17-08, 04:56 AM	Pre-Frozen Throne Ner'zhul (Ner'zhul the Orc Shaman) and post-Frozen Throne Ner'zhul (the bodiless Lich King) are so different as to basically be different entities. Canīt argue with you there. Having your mortal form destroyed and your spirit turned into an undead monstrosity can have that effect on people, I guess... I think the easiest way to handle it would be to say that the original Ner'Zhul was an Orc Shaman (i.e. an ordinary Orc with Cleric levels) and that Ner'Zhul as he is now has a unique Incorporeal Undead template applied to that original Ner'Zhul, turning him into an Epic-level creature. Yes, I originally considered making him a Cleric, and while thatīs certainly still a viable option I thought about reserving that class for the more "priestly" divine spellcasters of the Alliance and making the Spirit Shaman the standard among the orcs and similar races. When I think about it, the Lich template as written isnīt really appropriate despite the title Lich King. Some sort of Ghost with a lot of necromantic salient powers would probably fit better. Then again, DiceFreaksī Lich template can choose a special ability that makes itīs true form that of an incorporeal spirit... Oh, and the original Lich Kingīs "body" would effectively be that of the Frozen Throne, so destroying it should either destroy him as well or render him harmless (unless he manages to merge with someone shortly thereafter). It should have high Damage Reduction, Hardness and Hit Points, I think. Whether you want to stat Lich King Arthas as a single creature with yet another template applied to him or as ordinary Arthas possessed by Ner'Zhul (using the BoVD rules for Fiendish Possession) is up to you. Hmm, I thought about using either Gestalt or the psionic power Fusion for that, but I completely forgot about the possession rules. Technically Arthas isnīt actually possessed, their souls having merged and all, but I can use the same rules for it. Thanks! Scaling WoW to DnD (I play both) WoW: 70 = DnD: 12-14 (at most). Really, the casters are not using 9th level spells and they aren't all that powerful, so I'm stating out the characters at lvl 20, except Arthas (Lich King) who's level 30. And why does Kael have fighter levels. As a matter of fact, Iīll stat out many of the major NPCs as somewhere around 20th level as well. Thrall and Jaina, for example, are both 17th-18th level so far, while Arthas, Illidan and Malfurion are around 22nd-24th. Kaelīthas has levels in Fighter (and Eldritch Knight and Spellsword) because of his official statistics in The Warcraft RPGīs Manual of Monsters, this was an attempt to improve his Fighter 14 / Wizard 15 build. But, as I stated in a more recent post, I donīt think that would be a very accurate representation. A pure Wizard (Evoker) with levels in a fire-based PrC would be better.