Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mortavier Shadewalk 04-20-07, 02:04 PM	http://www.petitiononline.com/sdadm582/petition.html I said I wouldn't post here anymore, but this needs to be done. Please, sign the Save Dragon and Dungeon Magazie Petition. Thank you, Mortavier
RedUncle 04-20-07, 02:10 PM	In a sincere desire to offer constructive criticism: Remove the apostrophe from "its" before you mail the petition - the possessive form of "it" is "its". :) awesome, bro!
Mortavier Shadewalk 04-20-07, 02:14 PM	Oops. Thanks. Let that be a lesson kids. Don't type while snarling.
Seeker95 04-20-07, 03:01 PM	"Saving" Dungeon and Dragon magazines will harm Paizo Publishing, which has designed its entire business model around the end of these publications. I do not want to harm Paizo by forcing them to continue these magazines, and I do not want WotC directly competing with Paizo in a print format. I will speak with my dollars when I see what WotC provides. I have alrady decided to spend my current Dragon subscription dollars on Paizo's new offerings.
RikuKupo 04-20-07, 04:19 PM	I've never actually seen a dragon magazine myself, but I've always liked the concept and a lot of people seem to support it. Now my main question, if the stuff in Dragon was OGL, doesnt that mean its supposed to be free? How can they charge for something that is free if it goes online? And if it was OGL, how can WotC pull the plug on something they dont own? From my understanding, the move to online might benefit me a lot. WotC is a money grubbing :censored: :censored: :censored: :censored: big corp out to make money. If more high quality stuff is avaliable online, that would be so much better, I wouldn't have to buy fluff to get 3 feats. But I am honestly a bit ignorant, tell me I have this right?
Zherog 04-20-07, 04:28 PM	A) None of the material in Dragon was OGL. B) OGL does not mean free.
Mortavier Shadewalk 04-20-07, 04:51 PM	Thanks everyone, 66 signitures in less than 3 hours. I appreciate your help.
Rocketboy13 04-20-07, 05:24 PM	I'm going to stay on Seeker95's wave length and just see what the future brings without these books, and I have a subscription to both of them.
Edymnion 04-20-07, 05:56 PM	http://www.petitiononline.com/sdadm582/petition.html I said I wouldn't post here anymore, but this needs to be done.http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/petition/internet.htm It doesn't work, it never has worked, and odds are, it never will work. ePetitions are a way to blow off steam. They will not get anything brought back, they will not influence anyone, they will not change anyone's mind.
Noblehawk33 04-20-07, 06:53 PM	WotC is also talking about charging for the online magazine. Dragon was owned by them then Piazo publishing split off and continued to publish both Dragon and Dungeon magazines with a close connection to Wotc. What has happened now is the wizards have not renewed the license agreement with Piazo. One other point on your comments of course WotC is out to make money are not we all. I for one will not work for free. There is nothing wrong with making money but in this industry I believe the best way to make the most money is to produce items that the buying public wants. I believe (without I admit any proof) that the magazines were a valuable part of the RPG world and they will be missed by many.
Far_Traveler 04-20-07, 06:54 PM	Done.
Lord_Tirian 04-20-07, 09:36 PM	[QUOTE=Edymnion;12164169ePetitions are a way to blow off steam. They will not get anything brought back, they will not influence anyone, they will not change anyone's mind.[/QUOTE]Exactly. If you *really* want to do something, do it another way: Invest something and send WotC a real letter, you know, the snail mail way. That's actually useful. Please. Because it shows so much more than some clicks. I've already finished my letter and'll send it on monday, so do a *real* petition, the old-fashioned way... because saying them doing online-stuff is bad, when you're using online-stuff to prove your point is... a bit counterproductive!?
CelticKevin 04-20-07, 10:57 PM	There isn't a cleric in the house... The magazines Dungeon and Dragon are DEAD. D . E . A . D . Dead...:weep: LATER... The content will be reincarnated as a little farsighted kobold with a hand axe and a peg leg bugbear wielding a spiked club. :evillaugh
Mortavier Shadewalk 04-21-07, 01:07 AM	ePetitions are a way to blow off steam. They will not get anything brought back, they will not influence anyone, they will not change anyone's mind. Of course they are. I hold no illusions. Once the petition has as many signitures as I think it will get (give it a month or two and see if it trickles off) I'll print a copy and send the entire thing (sigs and all, hopefully it will be thick) to Wizards. Exactly. If you *really* want to do something, do it another way: Invest something and send WotC a real letter, you know, the snail mail way. That's actually useful. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'll be writting a letter a week. I'm not just going to throw a hissy fit and throw together a petition. I'm going to bug these guys to death. LATER... The content will be reincarnated as a little farsighted kobold with a hand axe and a peg leg bugbear wielding a spiked club. And if we don't do anything about it, even if we wouldn't change the outcome, it would be our fault for not even trying. Are my efforts futile? Probably. I don't care. Even if I knew for a fact that I wouldn't affect the outcome, I'd do the exact same thing. Why? I'm a spiteful sonuva*****. That's why.
airwalkrr 04-21-07, 03:01 AM	At least for me, this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20070420a) is not a welcome move. There is a reason I buy things in print. I do it because I like having things in print. I like having it printed up on professional high gloss paper. I like the smorgasbord of articles I get with each issue that always surprise me. I like reading fan mail (and editor responses). I like the professional production value that goes into a magazine. I like having the physical product on my shelf. I do NOT like printing up the product myself and putting it in a binder. I do NOT like the quality of the current online content issued by WotC (and I do not believe it will improve drastically once they start charging for it). As a business model, it seems like WotC's recent changes are geared towards hoarding the D&D license for themselves, almost as if they are ashamed of the d20 open gaming license. And since I suspect they will NOT be taking on Paizo's Dragon and Dungeon staff as full time employees to work in the production of their online content (the whole idea here being to cut costs by moving the format online and restricting the license), nor will they make significant hirings to tackle the beast, the quality of the online content offered will be basically the same hackneyed junk that we see now, possibly placed in a prettier pdf package. I have been sorely disappointed with WotC's business plan over the last year. I have been a loyal buyer of all their D&D brand products (yes, I do mean all) since around 1999 and now is the first time I have ever questioned whether the investment will continue to be worth it. Whatever they have planned had better be very, very special indeed. But I doubt it.
Keldir 04-21-07, 03:06 AM	Print this on some t-shirts: Wizards of the Coast: Taking the Dungeon and Dragon out of Dungeons and Dragons Give them away at Gen-Con
Ranger REG 04-21-07, 03:22 AM	I've never actually seen a dragon magazine myself, but I've always liked the concept and a lot of people seem to support it. Now my main question, if the stuff in Dragon was OGL, doesnt that mean its supposed to be free? Only a handful of content in the entire Dragon magazine collection have been designated OGC. The rest aren't. They have exclusive license from WotC to publish the official D&D magazine, after WotC decided to shut down their periodical department (which have been a staple since the TSR's days). How can they charge for something that is free if it goes online? How can Green Ronin charge money for Mutants & Masterminds? Most of the above product's content are OGC. And if it was OGL, how can WotC pull the plug on something they dont own? Read my first response above.
Keldir 04-21-07, 03:45 AM	The Dungeons and Dragons brand has bad profit margins, and therefore needs a different business model in order to be effective. This online thing is going to make or break Hasbro owning Dungeons and Dragons, and really, the gaming industry in general. Consolidating every single license and available resource to add to this online endeavour (online, character creation, electronic tabletop game availability) will help ensure maximum exposure, rather than having a divided market. I understand the reasons behind all of this, and from a business standpoint it makes sense. What MOST of us are really, truly ****** off about is the **** poor handling of this. If you had something to introduce to us in exchange for our beloved magazine(s), many people would be not only a lot less angry, they would be excited. Your coerced statements from people that you pay doesn't impress me a damn bit, if I knew you were going to pull the OGL license in 4th edition and I thought my career as a game designer was at WotC or nowhere else, I'd join in the asskissery too. Show us what is in the works. Hell, give us the concept, officially. Let us give you some damn feedback. You aren't dealing with typical consumers. Many of us are overly intelligent, nerdy people. We are angry right now and we lack social skills. We would hit our girlfriends if we could get girlfriends.
Molitor 04-21-07, 03:50 AM	Print this on some t-shirts: Wizards of the Coast: Taking the Dungeon and Dragon out of Dungeons and Dragons Give them away at Gen-Con NICE, that's even painful to read!
Novacat 04-21-07, 03:55 AM	If you had something to introduce to us in exchange for our beloved magazine(s), many people would be not only a lot less angry, they would be excited. They've already stated that they have something else in the works to take its place. It's just that like all gaming companies, they promise big, are eternally vague, and deliver late.
runestar 04-21-07, 03:58 AM	I stopped subscribing to Dragon and Dungeon magazines more than 2 years ago, as it was getting too prohibitively expensive for me. I am quite interested to see what alternative will be provided though, and if it might actually allow me to access similar content at a cheaper rate.:P Change might not always be bad, especially when there is not other alternative for me to turn to...:D
Keldir 04-21-07, 04:14 AM	They've already stated that they have something else in the works to take its place. It's just that like all gaming companies, they promise big, are eternally vague, and deliver late. I'm going to do something really big and effective in order to hurt WotC sales and protest this decision. It's um... really big and um.. awe inspiring. Look, all these people I pay agree.
AdvntrGuy 04-21-07, 04:36 AM	I agree with you about enjoying things in print. I like full size text on a page. I like reading in bed at night. I like reading on the train on the way to work. I like reading in the bathtub. Really, I do. Dungeon and Dragon are my light reading when I want to unplug or don't want to lug my laptop around (see bathroom reference above). This is a big loss for me. Reading full articles online is rare for me, and even more rare is printing them out to read. I'm going to try Pathfinder, but as they point out, it's a book not a magazine, so I doubt it'll have the same value for me. I hope WotC reconsiders this decision at some point very soon, but I'm not optimistic. AG
Vaelan 04-21-07, 04:56 AM	I'm going to do something really big and effective in order to hurt WotC sales and protest this decision. It's um... really big and um.. awe inspiring. Look, all these people I pay agree. Speaking to them in their own language, as it were, only works if they don't understand that their own language is not intended to honestly convey information.
Werral 04-21-07, 06:46 AM	Surely having Dragon and Dungeon magazines in regular newsagents, comic stores and such is a useful source of marketing for WoTC. You see a Dragon magazine in the comic section or hobby section and if you're the kind of person that it appeals too you look through itl. If you're reading it on the bus and someone who might like D&D sees it, then they think, "What's that". I bought a Dragon magazine long before I bought any books, and bought more magazines than books. If you're an aspiring Games Designer than a magazine light Dungeon or Dragon may be your first opportunity to get in print. And getting online is no substitute for getting in print. I've had articles published in local magazines and it's a great feeling. PDFs are also vulnerable to piracy, people using P2Ps, even fairly innocent stuf like emailing a copy to they're friends. IF you lend someone a print magazine, then sooner or later you'll want it back, so if they want it too they'll buy a copy. Buying magazines encourages you to spend money on books! It doesn't compete you never think, "10 Dragon magazines or the Complete Scoundrel?" because you buy magazines as impulse buys, you buy books after some thought. TSR showed contempt for gamers and they bombed. WoTC shouldn't make the same mistake.
Xaltar 04-21-07, 07:48 AM	I have a subscription to Dungeon magazine and use the material regularly for my games. I personally like having the hard-copy around the house to read. A handful of computer papers just isn't the same. I'm also concerned that the material and art isn't going to be as good when it goes back to Wizards.
Seeker95 04-21-07, 08:39 AM	Print this on some t-shirts: Wizards of the Coast: Taking the Dungeon and Dragon out of Dungeons and Dragons They'll look great next to the Wizards of the Coast: Buying Dungeons & Dragon from TSR They'll kill the game! :rolleyes:
sakkara 04-21-07, 09:55 AM	I far far far prefer print over digital display. It's not nearly as portable (I need a computer AND and internet connection to view it). It's display is harder on the eye. I have been reading Dragon since about issue #80, compiling back issues to the #50's. I have been a Dungeon buyer since issue #1. I have bought almost every 3.x book/supplement/module that has come out. I am your bread & butter. And this move disappoints me, and makes me question my loyalty to the company. These are gaming institutions, and it saddens me to see them go. I can only hope WOTC sees the error in this decision soon enough, and reverses course. I don't think purely digital content is the future. Perhaps it is for some of your customer, but it certaining isn't for all. I think as a test, they should have moved Dungeon/Dragon to a digital format in parallel (& at a cheaper price). Both demographics could have been served. By simply removing one format (print), WOTC is relying on print subscribers to blindly migrate to the new format. I'm not planning to, and from what I've read on the boards since the announcement, a LOT of other people are not either. At the very least -- the price point needs to be incredibly reasonable -- like $5/mo. At that price, I would probably give it a chance & hope I determine the format at least usuable. Anything higher, and I don't think I will even give it a shot... Sakkara
VrecknidjX 04-21-07, 11:27 AM	I think more people will give it a try than admit it right now. Years ago, I gave up reading printed newspapers and most magazines (I have kept three: Dungeon, Dragon and Newsweek). A HUGE number of folks get their reading fixes online. (I read a lot of stuff online, and not just boards material, and I suspect most other folks do too.) I think that the decision was based on many factors, not the least of which is that some folks, like my 13 year old and 18 year old, have grown up so surrounded by electronic media, that it's almost silly to them that folks older than they are are having this debate. WotC, in order to stay relevant, plugged in, and tied to their consumers, have to embrace online distribution. That's my guess. Dave
Man in the Funny Hat 04-21-07, 11:38 AM	What MOST of us are really, truly ****** off about is the **** poor handling of this. If you had something to introduce to us in exchange for our beloved magazine(s), many people would be not only a lot less angry, they would be excited.You've got to be kidding. The last issue comes out in SEPTEMBER. They have given you 6 freakin' months warning that this is going to happen. And their intent is to replace it with online content. Instead of paying a TON for a glossy magazine they will charge you something else instead for online content. Price and actual content not yet announced in detail, but almost certain to be in place long before the magazine is finally gone. What, exactly, have they badly handled here, except to fail to anticipate a stupid level of overreaction from a small sector? Or perhaps they did expect it and just decided it wasn't worth the bother of formally addressing - since it isn't.
joelsanda 04-21-07, 12:08 PM	You've got to be kidding. The last issue comes out in SEPTEMBER. They have given you 6 freakin' months warning that this is going to happen. And their intent is to replace it with online content. Instead of paying a TON for a glossy magazine they will charge you something else instead for online content. Price and actual content not yet announced in detail, but almost certain to be in place long before the magazine is finally gone. What, exactly, have they badly handled here, except to fail to anticipate a stupid level of overreaction from a small sector? Or perhaps they did expect it and just decided it wasn't worth the bother of formally addressing - since it isn't. Wow ... never seen anyone fail a diplomacy check as bad you. My hunch is you were probably born after Dragon magazine first started getting published, judging by your reaction. They abruptly ended a 31-year old magazine. It's a lot to stomach for folks who have played the game for that long.
Mortavier Shadewalk 04-21-07, 12:21 PM	They'll look great next to the Wizards of the Coast: Buying Dungeons & Dragon from TSR They'll kill the game! :rolleyes: So have they decided not to cancel Dungeon and Dragon since I've been gone? 'Cause if not, then that's exactly what they're doing. You seem to be reading into it as if they're trying to rip the game's soul out. :rolleyes: wiieeeeerd.
Edymnion 04-21-07, 01:33 PM	Once the petition has as many signitures as I think it will get (give it a month or two and see if it trickles off) I'll print a copy and send the entire thing (sigs and all, hopefully it will be thick) to Wizards.It won't matter. Listen, it is an online petition. There is *ZERO* proof that it was actually signed by anyone. I know how that site works. You give me half an hour and I can write a program with a couple hundred first names, last names, email addresses, etc that will randomly mix and match, and then post that information to the petition. Half an hour of coding, and maybe 30 seconds of running the program, and I could have a million signatures on that thing that look just like the "legit" signatures, and everybody knows it. Heck, I could do worse than that. I know where to get webcrawlers that I could send out to harvest REAL emails from the internet off of message boards and the like, so I could have a million signatures on that thing with valid email addresses of people that have never even heard of the magazines. Even failing that, I could just take tomorrow off, and do nothing but sit there and make up fake names and email address manually, and add thousands of signatures to it. *THAT* is the point. There are no actual signatures, no differant handwriting, no way to see if the "people" that signed it even really exist, and everybody knows that. It doesn't matter how many people you get to sign that, its equally worthless with 10,000 signatures as it is with 3 signatures. If you want to have the slightest hope of making anybody take you seriously, it has to be an actual snailmail letter writing campaign. You need to HAND WRITE your letter, you need to put it in an envelope, pay MONEY to put a stamp on it, hand write the address to WotC on it, and mail it. WotC will not take an electronic petition seriously, and they shouldn't. It doesn't matter if you print it off and mail it to them, because its one lousy package with a bunch of easily faked names written on it. They will throw it in the trash without even reading it. You need an actual letter writing campaign that floods them with snailmail by the bag full. All hand written, all with licked stamps, all of which requires time to sort and deal with on WotC's part. That might make a dent, but only if you can get thousands or tens of thousands of letters in there at roughly the same time. A hundred or two doesn't cut it. Printed letters don't cut it. Emails definately don't cut it. The amount of time and energy put into the attempt, that matters. You have to get thousands of people that invest a substantial chunk of time and energy into this before anyone will give a damn. And honestly, I don't think its going to happen, because of one little reason. The only people that would do this are the ones that already were paying customers for subscriptions, and obviously THAT WASN'T ENOUGH. Do you really think you can get several times more people to write in letters than even subscribed to the magazines in the first place? Because thats what its going to take.
RikuKupo 04-21-07, 01:39 PM	Alright alright, I'm a bit more knowledgeable now, thanks all. WotC could NOT have picked a worse time to pull the plug on something apparently very old, traditional, and well loved. Maybe if they werent full of crap nowadays, selling useless junk and pretty background info on the shelves with tons of typos, and sending their online articles to the Abyss (Minds eye vs Save my game! and The spellbook vs "DICE GAMES!!!!!!!!!!!" gee, whats better?? :waits: ) it might have gone over a tad bit better. but they keep punching themselves into the ground, and this they started kicking themselves too. :banghead: its times like this i wish with all my heart there was a De de de smily... cuz WotC is goin down the loo
die 04-21-07, 02:10 PM	GURPS did the same thing with Pyramid magazine, I dunno how well it went but I let my subscription run out, I prefer to actually have something sitting on the shelf. I guess I'll let my Dragon subscription turn into Pathfinder (http://paizo.com/transition) and see how that goes. I buy Dungeon magazines on occasion at the FLGS when I pick up a new book, I'm sure third party companies are excited cause they'll try to take up the slack. You can get a subscription to Dungeon Crawl Classics (http://www.goodman-games.com/DCCpreview.php) if you like their modules, I might try it, dunno yet.
Olskool 04-21-07, 02:17 PM	In a way it's good that they killed Dungeon and Dragon. It was the straw that broke the camel's back as far as my purchasing habits. Now the money I spent on Hasbro products will go to Paizo instead. I won't buy any Hasbro minis, books, or accessories because they've shown that they don't value me as a customer. It's about time I stopped supporting them.
Pennarin 04-21-07, 02:54 PM	I have a .txt file of everything I found of interest in Dragon since 3.0 came out....and it's a mile long! Dunno if the same new, exciting stuff is gonna be put online now. ...what of the stellar art? Crappy, now?
Ayra 04-21-07, 03:12 PM	The only thing I like reading online are the articles that I do not wish to read again, such as the news and daily comics. When I read Dungeon and Dragon material, I usually read it for fun. I enjoy the art and the articles. Sometimes I use the material, but most of the times its just a great read which I would like to archive to reread again. It's useful information, but by means of a magazine I feel like Im paying for the quality I'm getting. When I pay for an online subscription on something it definitely doesn't feel that way, especially if I have to print it myself s well. I love to read things in print. I spend enough time behind my PC already, so I would much rather read from a magazine than from a screen.
Giant_Moth 04-21-07, 03:15 PM	Me and none of my players ever used Dragon or Dungeon to get into the game. Only one had a subscription of Dragon for a year, but got sick of it and quit. While I myself cannot petition for it to continue, I can understand that some wants it. Personaly I thought it was a toss of bad rules into the gaming world, a magazine that focused more on making D&D into a rollplay rather then roleplay
literati 04-21-07, 03:21 PM	I, too, prefer reading magazines over reading online. I do read things online, but only news articles and forums, really. For other things (books, modules, etc) I prefer to have a copy in my hands. I can't fathom reading Anna Karenina on my computer (goodbye eyes!), much less printing it out. Granted, most DnD things aren't over 800 pages long, but the preference is there, aesthetic as it is. I am among those who think this is a poor decision. I will probably buy less from Wizards, and more from Paizo now. Maybe that will change in the future, maybe not. I certainly don't think that going strictly online is the best choice that could have been made. Oh well, nobody asked me.
Edymnion 04-21-07, 04:35 PM	Pick a thread, any thread. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=832218 http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=832959 http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=832207 http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=832482 http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=833009 http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=832874 http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=832833 http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=832547 http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=833029 http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=833061 http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=832765 http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=832801 http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=832262 http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=832891 http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=832590 http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=832806 http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=832207
Zyfax 04-21-07, 05:02 PM	Being the player (or sometimes DM), that Giant_moth references to, I am almost ashamed to ever have bought the publication. firstly, we live in sweden, so imagine buying them for 10. Yes, 10 approx dollars a piece is kind of horrid. As far as material went, the prestige classes were mainly useless, and the fluff were things that I felt were disassociated from the "feeling" of the games we run (mainly homebrew). I can't go all out to call the magazine a waste though. I HAVE used material. All said and done, though, is that a petition isn't going to do anyone any good. I would much rather handwrite ten international letters at two pages apiece telling WOTC that not every supplement of dungeons and dragons needs to include dungeons/and/or dragons, since they do not fit all campaigns, than make a petition for the revival of a magazine that more often than not was true hit or miss. I would much rather pay for individual articles, as long as they were very, very diverse and came in steady supply. every DM needs different things. Med vänlig häsning (with regards)/Zyfax
Vaelan 04-21-07, 06:07 PM	Wow ... never seen anyone fail a diplomacy check as bad you. My hunch is you were probably born after Dragon magazine first started getting published, judging by your reaction. Please read the Guidelines for Posting. Thanks. They abruptly ended a 31-year old magazine. It's a lot to stomach for folks who have played the game for that long. Please read the post you are responding to. Thanks. He was responding to a very specific complaint which happens to be quite different from yours. Also, this entirely different complaint that you have proposed? Just as unworthy of response, not to mention factually inaccurate as 1) six months can hardly be considered abrupt and 2) not everyone who has played the game for that long cares about the magazines. WotC could NOT have picked a worse time to pull the plug on something apparently very old, traditional, and well loved. They could have cancelled it one issue before its 30th anniversary... Maybe if they werent full of crap nowadays, selling useless junk and pretty background info on the shelves with tons of typos . . . Many of their recent releases are universally praised. ...and sending their online articles to the Abyss (Minds eye vs Save my game! and The spellbook vs "DICE GAMES!!!!!!!!!!!" gee, whats better?? ) it might have gone over a tad bit better. It would not have gone over any better if the D&D official website were a shining beacon of AWESOME and you know it. As shown above, this is largely an emotional attachment.
celtredleg 04-21-07, 08:30 PM	Wow ... never seen anyone fail a diplomacy check as bad you. My hunch is you were probably born after Dragon magazine first started getting published, judging by your reaction. They abruptly ended a 31-year old magazine. It's a lot to stomach for folks who have played the game for that long. I have bought Dragon since 1977. And a few Stratigic reviews before that. So there may be a few here who bought it longer than me, but not by much. And I am not shedding that many tears. Other than a few things, I have not considered Dragon worth the price for a number of years. It just doesnt have enough things that fit my game. If the new stuff is no better, then I wont buy it either. But if it is significantly cheaper, then I will be more likely to give it a try.
Seeker95 04-21-07, 08:44 PM	So have they decided not to cancel Dungeon and Dragon since I've been gone?According to the announcement, they have ended the Paizo license for publishing Dungeon and Dragon magazines. They have also stated that they are migrating to online content. Maybe it will be an e-zine. Maybe not. We don't know much more than that.
deadDMwalking 04-21-07, 08:46 PM	I'll be writing several letters. I'll be writing to Wizards of the Coast, and I'll be writing to the highest levels of Hasbro I can find. Despite the futility of the petition, I've signed that too. Each communication method that I use, while it may be ignored, I hope will get through to those behind the decision. Maybe the negative reaction already voiced will be sufficient to convince the powers that be that this decision was bone headed. Perhaps not. However, each avenue of communication is worth utilizing. The important point here is not that the effort may be wasted, it is that it is worth the effort through EVERY communication channel. I hope that those that sign the petition offered will also write letters. And I hope that some part of what we do matters enough to actually make the difference.
DyloniusFunk 04-21-07, 10:09 PM	Show us what is in the works. Hell, give us the concept, officially. Let us give you some damn feedback. You aren't dealing with typical consumers. Many of us are overly intelligent, nerdy people. We are angry right now and we lack social skills. We would hit our girlfriends if we could get girlfriends. Yeah because violence against women because a magazine got cancelled is always a good idea. :rolleyes:
Mortavier Shadewalk 04-22-07, 12:14 AM	According to the announcement, they have ended the Paizo license for publishing Dungeon and Dragon magazines. They have also stated that they are migrating to online content. Maybe it will be an e-zine. Maybe not. We don't know much more than that. Woops. Sorry. I obviously forgot my [sarcasm] bracket. I'll be writing several letters. I'll be writing to Wizards of the Coast, and I'll be writing to the highest levels of Hasbro I can find. Despite the futility of the petition, I've signed that too. Each communication method that I use, while it may be ignored, I hope will get through to those behind the decision. Maybe the negative reaction already voiced will be sufficient to convince the powers that be that this decision was bone headed. Perhaps not. However, each avenue of communication is worth utilizing. The important point here is not that the effort may be wasted, it is that it is worth the effort through EVERY communication channel. I hope that those that sign the petition offered will also write letters. And I hope that some part of what we do matters enough to actually make the difference. Thank you. This is entirely the attitude we need. I've seen so many people on this forum simply laying down and taking this that it makes me rather sick. They post about how they hate this decision, then they say, "well, I'll just wait and see what happens." When did we forget that we have a voice? I know that I won't ever be able to stand up to even the smallest corporation on my own, and I don't expect to. But so far, I've only seen a fraction of those that have voiced their displeasure really do anything about it. If you don't like something, you don't roll over and take it, you band together, and fight for what you think is the right decision. You don't worry about whether or not you will be able to accomplish what you've set out to do, you just focus on doing it. If all those who were dissatisfied behaived like you, I think we might just be able to make a difference. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20070420a Gee. Thanks Wizards. That makes me feel all better. If you're going to make me waste my time reading something like that, you might as well try and explain yourselves, not pat me on the back and say "Don't worry, you'll love what we're going to do. Now don't ask questions."
Mirtek 04-22-07, 06:57 AM	"Saving" Dungeon and Dragon magazines will harm Paizo Publishing, which has designed its entire business model around the end of these publications. I do not want to harm Paizo by forcing them to continue these magazines, and I do not want WotC directly competing with Paizo in a print format. Sadly, if saving Dragon/Dungeon means to harm Paizo, then I have to say: Forget Paizo, long live Dragon and Dungeon Magazines. No matter whether it's made by Paizo, WotC or a new 3rd Party publisher, it's about the magazines, not the company publishing it.
primemover003 04-22-07, 08:37 AM	What, exactly, have they badly handled here, except to fail to anticipate a stupid level of overreaction from a small sector? Or perhaps they did expect it and just decided it wasn't worth the bother of formally addressing - since it isn't. You call 30,000 to 45,000 people a small sector???
Werebat 04-22-07, 08:55 AM	Is it possible that WotC had/has only a pretty vague plan of what they're doing after terminating Dungeon and Dragon, and have been reluctant to say anything because they wanted to analyze the level of outrage on their forums first? I mean they have stated that they will be doing something with online content, but they've been mighty vague about exactly what and their reasons for being vague don't seem to stand up well. So, could they be reading these threads to see what people are upset about losing, so they won't get rid of those features in the e-zine they plan to put out? I'm trying to think of a REAL reason they would handle things the way they are handling them, and I'm drawing a blank. "Let's axe the mags, then be really vague about what we're doing next and just say we have a 'plan'!" Why do this? Why not just be up front and tell us what's in the works? Could it REALLY be just because there are 6 issues of Dungeon and Dragon left? I'm not buying it. - Ron ^*^
Bob Loblaw 04-22-07, 09:41 AM	Maybe they do have a plan and they have to wait to announce it. I work in a pharmacy and we recently acquired another pharmacy that wanted to sell to us. Part of the agreement was that neither us nor them would let anyone know about it, including the employees. This serves a few purposes: 1) It makes sure that people don't jump ship too soon so that the business remains profitable up to the end. 2) It makes sure that the employees don't jump ship too soon so that the business can remain profitable. 3) It makes sure that the guests have very little time between transactions so that they don't take their business elsewhere before seeing what is in store for them. They are still free to take that business elsewhere; they are just given an immediate opportunity to conduct their business with the company that made the acquision (often times with a little extra for the first transaction). This is a very standard way of doing business. On the surface it certainly doesn't seem very customer friendly, and in some ways it's not. However, it is meant as a way for the company to retain as high of a profit margin as possible while providing the best service it can for the customer. While I may not like it very much, I do feel that we should give them some trust. The reason why is pretty simple: I have been giving them my trust for quite some time with few problems. Not everything has been perfect, but nothing has been so bad that I felt the need to completely avoid their products. There are some companies that I feel provide such poor products that I will not give them my trust any more. As a DnD player, you have to give some trust to the company that provides continous content for your game. I know that they can completely screw this up. I know that this could be the end of freelancing for many people. I would hope that WotC has already considered this and put a system in place that addresses these problems. Maybe they have an Online Content Director with a team of gamers and technicians to keep the content fresh and available. We don't know, but I would hope that they do.
TheOinodaemon 04-22-07, 09:48 AM	They don't really seem to have a plan as much as some ideas. They have 5 months or so to get something concrete together. I'm still to angry tosay anything else. Although I don't really know if I trust them.
Prophet Pax 04-22-07, 09:57 AM	Is it possible that WotC had/has only a pretty vague plan of what they're doing after terminating Dungeon and Dragon, and have been reluctant to say anything because they wanted to analyze the level of outrage on their forums first? ^*^ I have to say that this is a definate possibility. Their most recent article on the subject (Reflections on the D&D Magazines) appeared to be rushed and was only put up after about two or three hundred angry posts on the subject. Of course, they might have had a plan and scrapped it after the reaction from the community. I have had a subscription to Dragon and Dungeon since the mid 80's and while they are not a critical part of D&D they are (in particular Dragon) an iconic piece of the puzzle. In a way, I think people are upset for the same reasons that people are upset about steroid use in baseball. The history of the game and records are probably more important to baseball fans than any other sports fan. When someone monkeys with that tradition they get upset. For D&D fans Dragon Magazine represents an ongoing tradition in D&D. Something that no one wanted to see tarnished or messed with.
Thyme71 04-22-07, 10:47 AM	I'm disgusted with what has happened regarding the Dragon and Dungeon magazines. I'm not sure who is entirely responsible for this bad decision to end these publications, but I'm sure WoTC is a major decider here. As WoTC is located geographically close to Microsoft, I'm sure the Microsoft culture of "customer satisfaction last" rubs off on them. Be nice if WoTC had the Google philosophy of "Do no evil". Been playing this game since '80 and Dragon and Dungeon have been integral parts of the game for myself and everyone I know. This is a real loss to gaming. Online content is a poor substitution for this. Nothing like a good hardcopy magazine in hand. And I'm sure WoTC will be cheap and charge quite a bit for each and every little document that is marketed online. Considering the outrageous pricing on the books, would stand to reason WoTC will. Though I'm not going to stop playing D&D, my interest in gaming going back well before WoTC brought their philosophy to the game. I do hope though that bad things happen financially for WoTC over this decision, perhaps giving them cause to rethink this decision. I give no apologies for the emotionalism in this post. Losing Dragon and Dungeon is like losing a good friend. Thyme
Cincinnati 04-22-07, 11:16 AM	Awesome. There weren't enough threads about this already.
CharlieRock 04-22-07, 11:18 AM	:hoppingma me2
CedricBrooks 04-22-07, 11:56 AM	I can understand the emotion behind all the posts and threads about this subject, however, why don't you people post in one of the half dozen other threads about it instead of spaming the boards with your own personal moaning space? This is just becomeing annoying with the 15 diffrent threads about the same thing in each board.
celtredleg 04-22-07, 12:26 PM	The reaction of the boards is probably almost meaningless. There just are not enough posters to get a real feel for the hobby as a whole. And we are always among the whineyest part anyway. Every change is always met with shrill cries of GREED and I AM LEAVING. The very stridency of the boards makes us suspect. This is almost certainly not a WoTC decision, Hasbro most likely had a hand in it. That means it is a buisseness move. Nothing personal, and certainly nothing intended to wreck the company. I wonder if the people that think it is just ment to screw over the fans can tie thier own shoes. Now, perhaps in the long run, it may prove to be a bad idea. But it will take months for that to show. NOt just from the raveings of the boards. One of the things we dont know, and wont is the money involved. Did WotC make enough of the license, to cover the cost of thier advertiseing in the mags?? I am sure that wasnt for free. If they felt that they where shelling out to much for what they got, makes sense to pull the plug. What didnt happen was 4 days ago someone said, lets kill dragon, and replace it with something else. Hasbro has been around a long time, and unlike some of the peoplle who have ran DnD from time to time, the have people that understand marketing and fan base and such. Think with your brain for a few days instead of other body parts. Then wait for the next few press releases. I was appalled by the idea of DDM, and posted many tirades against them. Then they actualy came out, and not only did I have to shut up, but totaly reversed my position, because they are a good thing. Dont look like a dummy like I did.
thesuperskrull05 04-22-07, 01:28 PM	One of the things we dont know, and wont is the money involved. Did WotC make enough of the license, to cover the cost of thier advertiseing in the mags?? I am sure that wasnt for free. If they felt that they where shelling out to much for what they got, makes sense to pull the plug. What didnt happen was 4 days ago someone said, lets kill dragon, and replace it with something else. Hasbro has been around a long time, and unlike some of the peoplle who have ran DnD from time to time, the have people that understand marketing and fan base and such. I truly don't have much faith in Hasbro. Their figure lines act like female characters may as well not exist. The Star Wars line is full of pegwarmers. They killed the original (3 3/4)G.I.Joe line (which had at that point gone towards the silly, but it wasn't beyond repair) to eliminate competition for their upcoming Star Wars line. They relaunched the G.I.Joe line (3 years later) and it took them a few years to realize how best to pair up the figures in the two packs (I didn't think it was hard to realize that troop builders work best with other troop builders and not unique characters) and how to asort them in cases (again, nothing hard to figure out about people wanting lots of "nameless soldier" types and few unique characters). Shortly after they made real progress, they killed the line and moved it to online sales. They killed that after 4 waves of figures that were spaced way too far apart. A lot of these problems also exist in the Star Wars line. These are just a few problems, that they are still continuing right now, that Hasbro has had. That's in their toy division. The one they probably pay a lot more attention to and put a lot more effort into. So, I truly don't beieve they understand their fanbase in other cases, so I see no reason to believe they will here. Just as print is supposedly dead (didn't I hear Egon say that in Ghostbusters 20 years ago?) toys are also a dying breed. Kids want video games. They are killing comic books, toys, and several other things no doubt. Several toy lines are sustained by adults. Hasbro can't or won't realise this when they do market research. They do market reasearch to see what kids will buy (in terms of which characters to make into figures and which ones to produce more of), without really considering that the type of answers a kid gives aren't going to reflect what the people who are actually sinking lots of money into the toy line will buy. Again, this is dealing with the business they have been in for decades and they can't see this. In their defense, they have made a few fan choice figures and things that wouldn't be made otherwise for Star Wars. They just seem to be really slow to realising what everyone who follows these things seems to understand. I was appalled by the idea of DDM, and posted many tirades against them. Then they actualy came out, and not only did I have to shut up, but totaly reversed my position, because they are a good thing. Dont look like a dummy like I did. I am truly curious, why were you appalled by the idea of DDM?
Olskool 04-22-07, 01:53 PM	Nobody seems to think cancelling the magazines was a very good idea.
GrimshofHighSorcery 04-22-07, 01:57 PM	Nobody seems to think cancelling the magazines was a very good idea. There are a select few out there, but I can say it was a stupid choice, but there is nothing we can do about it. I must agree that someone should put an end to everyone posting their feelings, it is a pain when you go to the Future Releases board, and all there is are threads about Dragon/Dungeon magazine. I know it sucks, but we all can't just post our own threads.
Mortavier Shadewalk 04-22-07, 02:30 PM	For those who haven't seen it, Monte Cook has chimed in on this discussion and brings up a number of good points. I'd be willing to bet that there is indeed something keeping them from publishing a new magazine. The absolute smartest thing they could do is to say Dragon and Dungeon are ending, but Wyvern and Labyrinth are starting up the very next month, and even picking up with the same issue numbers. Magazine distributors have monthly "slots" to fill. That's why it's so hard to start a new magazine. It almost has to supplant another one to get a new slot, or you have to go through the major hassle of convincing them to create a new slot. Paizo could just tell its distributors "hey, we're stopping these mags, but here's two others to fill those slots." They could tell their subscribers that Wyvern and Labyrinth subscriptions will just take up where Dragon and Dungeon left off. Sales would still likely decline, but they wouldn't be paying WotC any money, so maybe it would work out OK. The folks at Paizo aren't dumb. They'd be doing that if they could. So there's really only one explanation. WotC's forcing them to some kind of agreement where they can't put out magazines (maybe for some limited period of time--a sort of non-compete clause lasting a year or two). Read Paizo's press release for their new subscription product Pathfinder. They're very careful about calling this magazine a "product." It's the only way to get around what must be some kind of restriction. This also provides us the answer for why WotC would do this. If the magazines were doing poorly, WotC wouldn't care if Paizo put out others. No, it's just the opposite. They're doing well, and likely WotC products--probably specifically adventures--aren't doing as well as WotC wants. There's been some loud voices at WotC crying that Dragon and Dungeon (particularly Dungeon) are too good a value. They're too good for the customer, and smart customers buy them rather than regular products. This was true when WotC put out the magazines, and it's been true under the Paizo banner as well. I'm guessing declining sales gave these voices the evidence they needed to axe the magazines. I should point out that I don't have any insider knowledge about the cancelation of the magazines, other than the bit about the voices inside WotC that used to call for their cancellation. As I said in another thread, I am really saddened by this. Some of my fondest "back in the day" memories are sitting around my friend's room in Junior High reading Dragon (he was the only one who's mom would let him have a subscription). No, not reading Dragon--studying it. Devouring it. Pouring over the cover, practically memorizing the articles, and pondering the ads, dreaming about what those products would be like. (Here's something that no one seems to have yet mentioned--I purchased a lot of products over the years based on the ads in Dragon. There will literally be no forum for those kinds of ads anymore.) I should point out that I have nothing but respect for the guys who have been working on the magazines the last few years. In particular, I think a lot of praise needs to go in the direction of Erik Mona, who really turned those magazines into worthy and worthwhile things--but then again, maybe that was the problem. I also think that this is likely a huge mistep on WotC's part. No matter what the reason. With 4th edition coming, Dragon is worth hanging onto just for the marketing of that release alone. When we prepared to launch 3E, Dragon was great for getting the word out, releasing previews, and getting people excited. When the game actually came out, both magazines were invaluable for supporting the game. It seems foolish to say it today, but back then I was worried that no one was going to ever create prestige classes other than those in the DMG, and the idea would die on the vine. Dragon was a great forum for me to create additional prestige classes as well as an article or two for instructing people on how to create their own. That's just one example. Sue brought up a really interesting point. When things like this happen, there's an outpouring of protest from the game community, but with that protest always comes heartfelt emotion. People are upset because they LOOOOVED Dragon and Dungeon. In their rants against the changes, everyone brings out their old memories of the magazines, they post their favorite covers, they name their favorite articles, etc. In the middle of the vitriol, a lot of love shines through. Is anyone (at the company) paying attention to this aspect of it? Are they noting the positive, or are they focusing only on the negative (and, likely, dismissing it). Many companies would kill to have customer testimonials as glowing as what some of the people have said about the magazines--or, to use a different example, what people say about current D&D whenever people start talking about a new edition. I know how things work at a company like WotC. I know it's easy for them to say "we know something you don't" and then dismiss what people have to say. But I've seen a lot of Internet firestorms over the years (I've been at ground zero for a few myself) and this one seems a little different somehow. I hope someone's actually paying attention. I hope it actually shapes some thinking in some fashion, because it's sincere and its valuable feedback, even if a little harsh at times. Not that the handling of the situation doesn't deserve a little harshness. To say it's been a bit of a PR debacle is quite the understatement. Still, it's not hard to figure out what they might be thinking--what they know and, as they point out, we don't. A lot of people are speculating that they're just going to turn Dragon and Dungeon into ezines. I don't think so. I think it's going to be a whole on-line thing--not just a website but something you actually get involved in. It'll have new content but also provide the tools to play the game online, interact with other gamers, create online gamer profiles and user-created content, etc. It could be even kinda cool (although probably not my personal cup of tea). The thing that I keep coming back to is this: Even if Pathfinder is amazingly cool (and it very well might be), and even if the new WotC thing is great, it's still a sad day when something as old and revered as Dragon magazine goes away. And that it took a few thousand gamers to remind WotC of that is also sad.
Vaalingrade Ashland 04-22-07, 02:50 PM	Is it possible that WotC had/has only a pretty vague plan of what they're doing after terminating Dungeon and Dragon, and have been reluctant to say anything because they wanted to analyze the level of outrage on their forums first? Unless they specifically act us in a tread, WotC could care less about what we have to say. Generating controversy in and of itself garners publicty that translates into sales -- and let's face it, very, very few people that are upset will drop the product.
Seeker95 04-22-07, 07:10 PM	they've been mighty vague about exactly what and their reasons for being vague don't seem to stand up well.I think their reasons are pretty direct.[quote]From The Letter (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20070420a) I know what happens next. And I can’t wait to share that with you, in all its glory. But I can’t do that today. There are business reasons, of course, and also practical reasons (to be frank, we’re still finalizing some of the details). And there’s also the fact that DRAGON Magazine and DUNGEON Magazine still have issues coming out from Paizo, and they deserve to have your undivided attention until the torch is officially passed back to us after issues #359 and #150. Likely "business reasons": Freelance contract negotiations Employee contract negotiations Resource allocation Securities Requirements (it is a publicly traded company) Practical Reasons: The above, plus The more detail they give without completed material, the more we whine without cause about product descriptions that are not out yet. Look how much whining is going on about 4e -- a product WotC has repeatedly stated is NOT even in development yet. How much more will we whine about product we get a teaser on, that is not done? But the reason I find most sufficient is that the magazines have four (three?) more months of issues to release, and the countdown to "the end" deserves our attention more than the preview of "the evolution".
Vaelan 04-22-07, 08:29 PM	Why do this? Why not just be up front and tell us what's in the works? If I had to guess, I would say that it is because they knew this whole thing would cause certain people to be in a less than reasonable state. If they came out with details now, while people are mad at them, the details would be ignored in the frenzy of tooth-gnashing and shirt-tearing. Maybe some people would go back and take another look after they gain some perspective, but chances are they wouldn't. As for the people who don't really care about the magazines, when the details are released really doesn't matter to them.
Mortavier Shadewalk 04-24-07, 04:52 PM	Update on the Petition- We're three days into it, and we have 363 signitures. They've been coming in at a steady rate, so keep it up! I sent a hardcopy to Mr. Greenwood today, and will continue to do so on at least a monthly basis. I encourage anyone who hasn't to mail a letter themselves. Alfred J. Verrecchia, CEO Hasbro Inc. 1027 Newport Ave. Pawtucket, RI 02862 Mr. Loren Greenwood, CEO Wizards of the Coast, Inc. PO Box 707 Renton, WA 98057 But we also have someone (many someones) to thank. I recomend sending a letter thanking Paizo and its staff for its fantastic handling of this situation. Lisa Stevens, CEO Paizo Publishing, LLC 2700 Richards Rd., Ste. 201 Bellevue, WA 98005-4200
Bob Loblaw 04-25-07, 12:30 AM	I think their reasons are pretty direct.[quote]From The Letter (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20070420a) I know what happens next. And I can’t wait to share that with you, in all its glory. But I can’t do that today. There are business reasons, of course, and also practical reasons (to be frank, we’re still finalizing some of the details). And there’s also the fact that DRAGON Magazine and DUNGEON Magazine still have issues coming out from Paizo, and they deserve to have your undivided attention until the torch is officially passed back to us after issues #359 and #150. Likely "business reasons": Freelance contract negotiations Employee contract negotiations Resource allocation Securities Requirements (it is a publicly traded company) Practical Reasons: The above, plus The more detail they give without completed material, the more we whine without cause about product descriptions that are not out yet. Look how much whining is going on about 4e -- a product WotC has repeatedly stated is NOT even in development yet. How much more will we whine about product we get a teaser on, that is not done? But the reason I find most sufficient is that the magazines have four (three?) more months of issues to release, and the countdown to "the end" deserves our attention more than the preview of "the evolution". You make it sound like they're trying to run a business or something. Heresy I say!