Diverse Group- Question About Alignment [Archive] - Wizards Community

Diverse Group- Question About Alignment [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
spyderfreek
11-29-05, 09:23 AM We have a group of 6 with basically 2 alignments: Good (1 neutral & 1 chaotic) and CN. The two "goods" a cleric and a ranger, were brought together through a story arc that has lead them to an almost friendship, while the CNs have kind of just tagged along.

One of the CNs is a drow (rogue) who has escaped torture and certain death of her house and found a place to hide within our group. She talked a barbarian into acting as her body guard through ingenous roleplaying, and more than a little naivety on the part of the barb PC. At the same time that these two entered the party, a CN elven wizard was running from the Scarlet Brotherhood and overheard us talking, asked if we could use a mage. We needed one so she was in.

This leaves only the 1/2ling rogue we picked up later in a module as a new guy joined our group. I tell you this to lead into my question:

The barb and 2 rogues have be infinitely useful to the party and have proven their worth time and again. The cleric and ranger, as I said earlier are forming a strong friendship and have been instrumental in completing many of the tasks at hand. (As a side note, the ranger seems to fall in combat more often than the barb, but I think that is a dice luck thing more than anything.)

Which brings us to our selfish elven wizard, whose first 2 choices in combat are: A) I cast mage armor on myself. and B) I watch the door. She shoots a few arrows (being an elf) at times, rarely hitting the enemy, but is always first to the treasure when it comes time too loot. She hoards the scrolls and wands we find (not many thus far, but still hoards) and shares little or none with those that have kept her alive.

The others (including my ranger) have noticed, so my/our question is:

Do you keep a selfish wizard in the group or do you turn her loose?

If you keep her, how do you let her know her attitude is honking you off?

If you turn her loose, how do you do it to a friend without honking them off?

advise please.
KJW
11-29-05, 09:53 AM The group I DM would probably drop the elven wizard when they reach a large town and look to hire a replacement. I had a player who retired a character and drew up a new one, he still had to go through the interview process and the party decided after the interview that he would not be hired. This was a little rough on the player, I let him play a NPC for a while and he is now working on a new PC when we start up again.

My players run their adventuring company like a business, they do not tolerate members who are disruptive or do not pull their weight, and for the most part they treat PCs the same as they would NPCs. They are a very effective group because they focus on building a cohesive team. Now if your group is more tolerant than my players, I would suggest that the party decide to put the troublesome PC on probation. Tell her to either get with the team or they may be forced to kick her off the party.

As for bad feelings, my players know the difference between a player and their character as long as there is a difference. So as long as everyone keeps the issues in the game there shouldn't be any problems as long as everyone is relatively mature. Still problems can arise, but it is better to deal with this now, then when the selfish wizards messes up the campaign and really gets everyone upset.
spyderfreek
11-29-05, 10:15 AM We're just getting started with Return to the Temple of EE and I see the wizard as being a major hindrance. I think we'll bring the issue up before we get any further than the moat house.
Morka
11-29-05, 10:45 AM Take care. At low level, wizard are useless than a bag of stones (you could still throw stones to your foes). But whenever they can cast higher level spells, they suddenly take the first place; at least, as long as they have some spells in mind. In a long term campaign, I would recommend you to be patient. However, since you soon start a difficult module, you can't afford to be patient. So you should discuss with the DM to give the elf a few useful wands (perhaps a wand here and there with 10-20 charges left).

As a side note, how do you roleplay an elf, a drow and an half-orc in the same party?
Man in the Funny Hat
11-29-05, 10:52 AM Do you keep a selfish wizard in the group or do you turn her loose?Communication. Does the WIZARD know that everyone percieves her as selfish beyond her usefulness to the party?
If you keep her, how do you let her know her attitude is honking you off?Communication. How about, "Well lemme tell ya sumthin lil' missy: For someone who doesn't seem to be all that useful in combat you sure seem to be awfully greedy about getting to the treasure.?" Really. It's just that easy.
If you turn her loose, how do you do it to a friend without honking them off?Communication. With the information you've given I can't tell if this is an in-character problem or a PLAYER problem. If it's an in-character problem then you say something like, "Falstaff the Fighter turns to Miss Wizard and says, 'Well lemme tell ya sumthin' lil' missy...'" If it's a player problem you turn to the player and say, "I have to tell you how your character's lack of usefulness in combat and greed for the treasure is bothering me - and others."

One thing is certain - I DON'T see how, based on what you've said so far, this is a situation where the PLAYER needs to be turned loose. Your friend needs to be enlightened and if you can't or won't do at least that then perhaps the question should be how much of a friend are they? Or you? If this IS a friend we're talking about you DON'T just let them make you madder and madder, never say anything to them about it, and then suddenly one day tell them to take a hike because you can't stand it anymore.
spyderfreek
11-29-05, 10:57 AM hrmmm... communication has been a problem in the past with this group... Hopefully we can resolve this easily, it seems we need to have an in-game sit down to discuss the ramifications of her actions, and those of all the group. Thanks for the help, I think we had decided to do this, but I just needed a backing up from some others to know I was taking the better course.

Thanx
DragonDeadite
11-29-05, 11:06 AM As a side note, how do you roleplay an elf, a drow and an half-orc in the same party?

Very carefully I would think... :P You might want to start this OOC and ask the player if he is intending his PC to be such a pain, if his answer is no then me just might not realise what it is he's doing and pull back a bit. If his answer is yes, then have the characters do something about it, usualy this is as simple as the Barb walking up and saying "No. Friend dark elf gets THAT wand." or something a bit more subtle. :cool:

EDIT: DANG!! Got beaten to the punch! Sucks having to work between posts.
Man in the Funny Hat
11-29-05, 11:07 AM [thread hijack]
I had a player who retired a character and drew up a new one, he still had to go through the interview process and the party decided after the interview that he would not be hired. This was a little rough on the player, I let him play a NPC for a while and he is now working on a new PC when we start up again.That's silly. And I mean that with lots of curse words left unsaid.

It is my considered opinion that characters need to ACTIVELY LOOK FOR WAYS TO LIKE OTHER CHARACTERS. You DO NOT just let another player spend time and effort creating a character, take a vote and tell them, "Sorry Steve. Try again - and again, and again until WE get your character just the way WE want it because after all YOUR interest in YOUR character is less important than OUR interest in your character."

Now that doesn't mean it isn't a two-way street. No player has the right to create a new PC that is in some way INTENDED to mix poorly with existing PC's. That's just the burden that comes with ANY PC having to fit into an established group. But other players need to be accomodating. IT IS NOT THEIR FREAKING CHARACTER TO APPROVE. Unless there is something SERIOUSLY difficult about the new PC being unable to fit into the party - like assassins and paladins - then players have an obligation to at least TRY to make the new dynamics work. They do NOT have the right of final approval over somebody elses new character - that power rests with the DM alone and there's no reason for the DM to exercise it unless it is manifestly obvious that there WILL be significant in-game or meta-game problems without it.

I would be interested to know if the player whose character was "rejected", when asked privately and openly, was in fact upset by having been allowed to waste time and effort in character creation or if he feels that he's being treated callously. It sure seems that way to me, but as always, if nobody at the table actually has a problem with it then just ignore this post.
[/hijack]
JLP
11-29-05, 11:08 AM Is there a leader in your party? Sounds like the Drow rogue is the most likely candidate, especially as she's got the brawn (Barbarian) to back her up. Anyway, the leader should lay down the law (such as chaotic characters are capable of following): no pain, no gain. If the Wiz doesn't lay down the magical hurt, she gets nothing.

Make sure the character understands this before the moat-house. As PCs, it's perfectly reasonable for you to threaten her with expulsion, or worse. So let the moat house be the final straw. Either she gets with the program, or there's gonna be one more body chokin' the local river and a nice new want ad goin' up in Hommlet.

You've just got to make sure that the player understands that the actions are being directed solely at his/her character. Some people have a problem recognizing that. This is where a good DM is going to make his/her presence felt.
KJW
11-30-05, 08:18 PM [thread hijack]
That's silly. And I mean that with lots of curse words left unsaid.

It is my considered opinion that characters need to ACTIVELY LOOK FOR WAYS TO LIKE OTHER CHARACTERS. You DO NOT just let another player spend time and effort creating a character, take a vote and tell them, "Sorry Steve. Try again - and again, and again until WE get your character just the way WE want it because after all YOUR interest in YOUR character is less important than OUR interest in your character."

Now that doesn't mean it isn't a two-way street. No player has the right to create a new PC that is in some way INTENDED to mix poorly with existing PC's. That's just the burden that comes with ANY PC having to fit into an established group. But other players need to be accomodating. IT IS NOT THEIR FREAKING CHARACTER TO APPROVE. Unless there is something SERIOUSLY difficult about the new PC being unable to fit into the party - like assassins and paladins - then players have an obligation to at least TRY to make the new dynamics work. They do NOT have the right of final approval over somebody elses new character - that power rests with the DM alone and there's no reason for the DM to exercise it unless it is manifestly obvious that there WILL be significant in-game or meta-game problems without it.

I would be interested to know if the player whose character was "rejected", when asked privately and openly, was in fact upset by having been allowed to waste time and effort in character creation or if he feels that he's being treated callously. It sure seems that way to me, but as always, if nobody at the table actually has a problem with it then just ignore this post.
[/hijack]

Oh yeah, he was disappointed and upset that the party rejected his character. He had drawn up a drug addicted sorcerer who appeared like he just walked out of a ditch, it was well roleplayed. The adventuring company included two paladins, several clerics, a few exalted characters, had a royal charter and a sterling reputation, and was interviewing a quality batch of new hires. Really was not a difficult decision for the other PCs.

Here is the point, if you have a group of PCs that actually have worked to build up a cohesive and elite group of PCs and NPCs, then it really falls to the player drawing up a new character to fit in with the group. My players will give a player the benefit of the doubt, but please a little effort is needed.
spyderfreek
12-02-05, 08:59 AM Is there a leader in your party? Sounds like the Drow rogue is the most likely candidate, especially as she's got the brawn (Barbarian) to back her up....

Make sure the character understands this before the moat-house...

First, the drow is not leader material, the barb quckly left his duties as her sidekick in favor of kicking in the side of things, the cleric and the ranger seem to be sharing the duties as leader, each taking a turn as necessity presents itself. But you are right, as to the second question, we just entered the moat house which is what brought me to my question. The PC cast armor and a scrolled magic weapon on her BOW, then stood there waiting to attack, conveinently out of reach of the dragon.

I think we shall have a talk about "tactics" before delving too much further into the module. Try to point out the strengths and weaknesses of each character before we go much further. That way we can capitalize as much as possible and minimalize everything else.

Hope that works.

Thanks for all the great advice everyone.
smoker
12-02-05, 09:26 AM The game should be fun. I do not see why players will create characters to create conflict right from the start.
That's pretty childish behavior. You have a player problem. Somebody needs to tell the guy to chill out.

smoker

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
spyderfreek 11-29-05, 09:23 AM	We have a group of 6 with basically 2 alignments: Good (1 neutral & 1 chaotic) and CN. The two "goods" a cleric and a ranger, were brought together through a story arc that has lead them to an almost friendship, while the CNs have kind of just tagged along. One of the CNs is a drow (rogue) who has escaped torture and certain death of her house and found a place to hide within our group. She talked a barbarian into acting as her body guard through ingenous roleplaying, and more than a little naivety on the part of the barb PC. At the same time that these two entered the party, a CN elven wizard was running from the Scarlet Brotherhood and overheard us talking, asked if we could use a mage. We needed one so she was in. This leaves only the 1/2ling rogue we picked up later in a module as a new guy joined our group. I tell you this to lead into my question: The barb and 2 rogues have be infinitely useful to the party and have proven their worth time and again. The cleric and ranger, as I said earlier are forming a strong friendship and have been instrumental in completing many of the tasks at hand. (As a side note, the ranger seems to fall in combat more often than the barb, but I think that is a dice luck thing more than anything.) Which brings us to our selfish elven wizard, whose first 2 choices in combat are: A) I cast mage armor on myself. and B) I watch the door. She shoots a few arrows (being an elf) at times, rarely hitting the enemy, but is always first to the treasure when it comes time too loot. She hoards the scrolls and wands we find (not many thus far, but still hoards) and shares little or none with those that have kept her alive. The others (including my ranger) have noticed, so my/our question is: Do you keep a selfish wizard in the group or do you turn her loose? If you keep her, how do you let her know her attitude is honking you off? If you turn her loose, how do you do it to a friend without honking them off? advise please.
KJW 11-29-05, 09:53 AM	The group I DM would probably drop the elven wizard when they reach a large town and look to hire a replacement. I had a player who retired a character and drew up a new one, he still had to go through the interview process and the party decided after the interview that he would not be hired. This was a little rough on the player, I let him play a NPC for a while and he is now working on a new PC when we start up again. My players run their adventuring company like a business, they do not tolerate members who are disruptive or do not pull their weight, and for the most part they treat PCs the same as they would NPCs. They are a very effective group because they focus on building a cohesive team. Now if your group is more tolerant than my players, I would suggest that the party decide to put the troublesome PC on probation. Tell her to either get with the team or they may be forced to kick her off the party. As for bad feelings, my players know the difference between a player and their character as long as there is a difference. So as long as everyone keeps the issues in the game there shouldn't be any problems as long as everyone is relatively mature. Still problems can arise, but it is better to deal with this now, then when the selfish wizards messes up the campaign and really gets everyone upset.
spyderfreek 11-29-05, 10:15 AM	We're just getting started with Return to the Temple of EE and I see the wizard as being a major hindrance. I think we'll bring the issue up before we get any further than the moat house.
Morka 11-29-05, 10:45 AM	Take care. At low level, wizard are useless than a bag of stones (you could still throw stones to your foes). But whenever they can cast higher level spells, they suddenly take the first place; at least, as long as they have some spells in mind. In a long term campaign, I would recommend you to be patient. However, since you soon start a difficult module, you can't afford to be patient. So you should discuss with the DM to give the elf a few useful wands (perhaps a wand here and there with 10-20 charges left). As a side note, how do you roleplay an elf, a drow and an half-orc in the same party?
Man in the Funny Hat 11-29-05, 10:52 AM	Do you keep a selfish wizard in the group or do you turn her loose?Communication. Does the WIZARD know that everyone percieves her as selfish beyond her usefulness to the party? If you keep her, how do you let her know her attitude is honking you off?Communication. How about, "Well lemme tell ya sumthin lil' missy: For someone who doesn't seem to be all that useful in combat you sure seem to be awfully greedy about getting to the treasure.?" Really. It's just that easy. If you turn her loose, how do you do it to a friend without honking them off?Communication. With the information you've given I can't tell if this is an in-character problem or a PLAYER problem. If it's an in-character problem then you say something like, "Falstaff the Fighter turns to Miss Wizard and says, 'Well lemme tell ya sumthin' lil' missy...'" If it's a player problem you turn to the player and say, "I have to tell you how your character's lack of usefulness in combat and greed for the treasure is bothering me - and others." One thing is certain - I DON'T see how, based on what you've said so far, this is a situation where the PLAYER needs to be turned loose. Your friend needs to be enlightened and if you can't or won't do at least that then perhaps the question should be how much of a friend are they? Or you? If this IS a friend we're talking about you DON'T just let them make you madder and madder, never say anything to them about it, and then suddenly one day tell them to take a hike because you can't stand it anymore.
spyderfreek 11-29-05, 10:57 AM	hrmmm... communication has been a problem in the past with this group... Hopefully we can resolve this easily, it seems we need to have an in-game sit down to discuss the ramifications of her actions, and those of all the group. Thanks for the help, I think we had decided to do this, but I just needed a backing up from some others to know I was taking the better course. Thanx
DragonDeadite 11-29-05, 11:06 AM	As a side note, how do you roleplay an elf, a drow and an half-orc in the same party? Very carefully I would think... :P You might want to start this OOC and ask the player if he is intending his PC to be such a pain, if his answer is no then me just might not realise what it is he's doing and pull back a bit. If his answer is yes, then have the characters do something about it, usualy this is as simple as the Barb walking up and saying "No. Friend dark elf gets THAT wand." or something a bit more subtle. :cool: EDIT: DANG!! Got beaten to the punch! Sucks having to work between posts.
Man in the Funny Hat 11-29-05, 11:07 AM	[thread hijack] I had a player who retired a character and drew up a new one, he still had to go through the interview process and the party decided after the interview that he would not be hired. This was a little rough on the player, I let him play a NPC for a while and he is now working on a new PC when we start up again.That's silly. And I mean that with lots of curse words left unsaid. It is my considered opinion that characters need to ACTIVELY LOOK FOR WAYS TO LIKE OTHER CHARACTERS. You DO NOT just let another player spend time and effort creating a character, take a vote and tell them, "Sorry Steve. Try again - and again, and again until WE get your character just the way WE want it because after all YOUR interest in YOUR character is less important than OUR interest in your character." Now that doesn't mean it isn't a two-way street. No player has the right to create a new PC that is in some way INTENDED to mix poorly with existing PC's. That's just the burden that comes with ANY PC having to fit into an established group. But other players need to be accomodating. IT IS NOT THEIR FREAKING CHARACTER TO APPROVE. Unless there is something SERIOUSLY difficult about the new PC being unable to fit into the party - like assassins and paladins - then players have an obligation to at least TRY to make the new dynamics work. They do NOT have the right of final approval over somebody elses new character - that power rests with the DM alone and there's no reason for the DM to exercise it unless it is manifestly obvious that there WILL be significant in-game or meta-game problems without it. I would be interested to know if the player whose character was "rejected", when asked privately and openly, was in fact upset by having been allowed to waste time and effort in character creation or if he feels that he's being treated callously. It sure seems that way to me, but as always, if nobody at the table actually has a problem with it then just ignore this post. [/hijack]
JLP 11-29-05, 11:08 AM	Is there a leader in your party? Sounds like the Drow rogue is the most likely candidate, especially as she's got the brawn (Barbarian) to back her up. Anyway, the leader should lay down the law (such as chaotic characters are capable of following): no pain, no gain. If the Wiz doesn't lay down the magical hurt, she gets nothing. Make sure the character understands this before the moat-house. As PCs, it's perfectly reasonable for you to threaten her with expulsion, or worse. So let the moat house be the final straw. Either she gets with the program, or there's gonna be one more body chokin' the local river and a nice new want ad goin' up in Hommlet. You've just got to make sure that the player understands that the actions are being directed solely at his/her character. Some people have a problem recognizing that. This is where a good DM is going to make his/her presence felt.
KJW 11-30-05, 08:18 PM	[thread hijack] That's silly. And I mean that with lots of curse words left unsaid. It is my considered opinion that characters need to ACTIVELY LOOK FOR WAYS TO LIKE OTHER CHARACTERS. You DO NOT just let another player spend time and effort creating a character, take a vote and tell them, "Sorry Steve. Try again - and again, and again until WE get your character just the way WE want it because after all YOUR interest in YOUR character is less important than OUR interest in your character." Now that doesn't mean it isn't a two-way street. No player has the right to create a new PC that is in some way INTENDED to mix poorly with existing PC's. That's just the burden that comes with ANY PC having to fit into an established group. But other players need to be accomodating. IT IS NOT THEIR FREAKING CHARACTER TO APPROVE. Unless there is something SERIOUSLY difficult about the new PC being unable to fit into the party - like assassins and paladins - then players have an obligation to at least TRY to make the new dynamics work. They do NOT have the right of final approval over somebody elses new character - that power rests with the DM alone and there's no reason for the DM to exercise it unless it is manifestly obvious that there WILL be significant in-game or meta-game problems without it. I would be interested to know if the player whose character was "rejected", when asked privately and openly, was in fact upset by having been allowed to waste time and effort in character creation or if he feels that he's being treated callously. It sure seems that way to me, but as always, if nobody at the table actually has a problem with it then just ignore this post. [/hijack] Oh yeah, he was disappointed and upset that the party rejected his character. He had drawn up a drug addicted sorcerer who appeared like he just walked out of a ditch, it was well roleplayed. The adventuring company included two paladins, several clerics, a few exalted characters, had a royal charter and a sterling reputation, and was interviewing a quality batch of new hires. Really was not a difficult decision for the other PCs. Here is the point, if you have a group of PCs that actually have worked to build up a cohesive and elite group of PCs and NPCs, then it really falls to the player drawing up a new character to fit in with the group. My players will give a player the benefit of the doubt, but please a little effort is needed.
spyderfreek 12-02-05, 08:59 AM	Is there a leader in your party? Sounds like the Drow rogue is the most likely candidate, especially as she's got the brawn (Barbarian) to back her up.... Make sure the character understands this before the moat-house... First, the drow is not leader material, the barb quckly left his duties as her sidekick in favor of kicking in the side of things, the cleric and the ranger seem to be sharing the duties as leader, each taking a turn as necessity presents itself. But you are right, as to the second question, we just entered the moat house which is what brought me to my question. The PC cast armor and a scrolled magic weapon on her BOW, then stood there waiting to attack, conveinently out of reach of the dragon. I think we shall have a talk about "tactics" before delving too much further into the module. Try to point out the strengths and weaknesses of each character before we go much further. That way we can capitalize as much as possible and minimalize everything else. Hope that works. Thanks for all the great advice everyone.
smoker 12-02-05, 09:26 AM	The game should be fun. I do not see why players will create characters to create conflict right from the start. That's pretty childish behavior. You have a player problem. Somebody needs to tell the guy to chill out. smoker