Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Penguintine 02-09-07, 03:32 PM	People seem to think that a DM is always right. A DM has two jobs. One to tell the players what happens as a result of their actions and the other is adjudicate when needed. Other people view the DM as if he was a mighty God and we are just petty mortals at his feat. Why is this? Is the DM really the Overlord of the game, or a mere Ref to make rules based calls?
tiamot 02-09-07, 03:40 PM	I think the player's outlook on their DM would depend highly on their playing style and experience. From my own DMing experience I don't just look at my responsibilities as merely including telling the players the results of their actions or describing dungeon surroundings. It is my job to create a world for them and weave within it a story based upon the influences the players themselves make. Yes, sometimes that means I have to play the middle ground and give judgment on some sort of event that is obscure. It is also my job to enforce the rules that have been set for the game. That means having to know the core rule books and variants extremely well. However, I'm human. I can make mistakes. I encourage every player to question their DM if they think that some rule has been misstated or not enforced. Get the book out and point it out if you have to. A good DM will be thankful for your input and that you're working to make the game better rather than just sitting idly by and waiting to be led along.
Bob Loblaw 02-09-07, 03:41 PM	I think that the phrase is misleading. The DM has the final say in everything that happens in the game. In that regard, he is in-the-right. This doesn't mean that the DM should be a control freak or that he should exert his control over the players. What it does mean is that he should listen to everyone, reference the rules, and make decisions that stand based on what is best for the group and game that he is running. It should be noted that the players are under no obligation to play under a DM who does not understand that he runs the game for the enjoyment of all (every player and himself). If he is detracting from that fun, then he needs to step down or the players need to find a better game where they will have fun.
ted_the_mindflayer 02-09-07, 03:46 PM	A good DM call right now VS The right call 30 minutes of looking in the books Multiply that by every close call he makes along with grey areas that are not easily corrected. A good DM may make a few mis steps but you must accept take rotten trees in a lush forest.
tiamot 02-09-07, 03:47 PM	It should be noted that the players are under no obligation to play under a DM who does not understand that he runs the game for the enjoyment of all (every player and himself). If he is detracting from that fun, then he needs to step down or the players need to find a better game where they will have fun. I think you hit the nail on the head there. DMs are just a part of the game as the players, and it is important that EVERYONE plays fairly and in the spirit of fun. It's unfortunate how many new players have been turned off from D&D just because their first time was with a bad DM.
ted_the_mindflayer 02-09-07, 03:49 PM	..... It's unfortunate how many new players have been turned off from D&D just because their first time was with a bad DM. Indeed but the same can be true of DMs being micromanaged by competive players.
tiamot 02-09-07, 03:54 PM	Indeed but the same can be true of DMs being micromanaged by competive players. Yes, I agree completely. It takes the efforts of an entire gaming group, not just the lone DM to make a game run smoothly and productively. ^_^ Overly competitive players can be a hassle, but I look at it as a fun challenge to overcome.
Asciiman 02-09-07, 03:57 PM	I play and have DMed for two rules heavy groups. If we don't know a rule on something we look it up and play as the rule says. This way we learn the rules and have a more fair game to play. That being said, not everything is within the rules either and the DM has to make a judgement call. The DM is NOT always right, but the DM does have the final say.
Loki5654 02-09-07, 04:14 PM	"The DM is always right, But a player can always take flight." When a player disagrees with a DM's ruling, they are well within their rights to try and change his mind (as long as it doesn't disrupt the game too much). But when a DM consistently rules in a way that upsets the players, they can "vote with their feet". A DM who cannot learn to accommodate, or at least reach accord with, his players will soon find himself alone at the table.
TheChilliGod 02-09-07, 04:17 PM	Well, it would be nice to be overlord of the game and unto a mighty god looking down on his mortal subjects. Just for a few hours... But that's not for D&D. That's more for RL. ;) But yeah, the DMG says that one of the DM's main jobs is Adjudication. He is supposed to rule stuff in order to keep the game from grinding to a halt while he and the players search through 30 odd minutes of rules to find whether you can Create Water inside someone's lungs or not. If two players have an argument over what the fighter just attempted to do, it's up to the DM to say what he can do. Much like a referee in any sport. Saying that the DM is always right is simply a rather out-of-context way of saying that whatever he rules is how the game is going to be played.
tiamot 02-09-07, 04:39 PM	Whenever I start a new game with my group, I give them a run-down on how the game world is going to work. Then, while they are making characters, tackle their questions about, "Can I do this or that?" I jokingly tell them, "I am the DM. I am God." But, we've all sat down as a group and come to a consensus about what this means to us as a whole. Now the players in my game, when they run their own games (we rotate on who runs) they all joke about being God in their game. But we know that this means, that sometimes as a DM you have to fudge the die rolls or tweak something temporarily in order to ensure balance. We also know that sometimes, players have to pick up their feet and help the DM by going along with their plot hooks. So when I have to tell a player that what they've done doesn't work, even though by all rights it should have, they know that I'm only halting their action for a specific game purpose, not because I'm being an overlord. Of course, I rarely do this, because it simply wouldn't be fair. So if any of you out there are having DM-God issues, it would probably be very beneficial to sit down as a group and discuss just how far this should be taken.
SneakyPetey 02-09-07, 05:46 PM	People seem to think that a DM is always right. I like the way these people think! :D Honestly, I would *love* to think that I am always right, but my brain works in funny ways... I will *swear* by Odin's Ravens that I read something at sometime that said one thing, only to find afterwards that it was some kind of insane confabulation. Which leads to a printed apology (or clarification, as I call them) in our group's newsletter. After which, I seldom get it wrong again. When something isn't covered by the rules, and my players disagree on my initial ruling, we start shooting emails around and I organize and publish them in our newsletter, and establish a house-rule based on everyone's opinion. Am I always right? Nope. But my motto is, "Give me enough chances and eventually I'll get it right!" ;) A DM has two jobs. One to tell the players what happens as a result of their actions and the other is adjudicate when needed. ...And (in my case) to create the world in which the campaign takes place, along with a coherent storyline, plot hooks, adventure settings, interesting BBEGs, and (occasionally) new beasties for the party to slaughter... Other than that, the job is easy! Other people view the DM as if he was a mighty God and we are just petty mortals at his feat. Who are these people?!? I want to meet them! :D If my players view me as a "mighty God" it's because I've entertained them with a game session that will go down in the annals as one of the best they've ever played in. (This happens occasionally.) Throw in the fact that they are mature enough to realize how much effort I put into the campaign and the creation of the individual adventures, and that might add to any mystique that I hold over my players. Why is this? Is the DM really the Overlord of the game, or a mere Ref to make rules based calls? The answer to your question is 42. :D
Bruunwald 02-09-07, 06:19 PM	I think the notion of the DM being "right," comes from the desire to keep a game flowing. Investing your trust in your referee, standing by his rulings (even when you don't always agree with them), and having faith that the game will in all probability "right" itself, even if a bad call has been made, all show maturity and a desire to propel the story and the action forward. When we say the DM is always right, we are saying that we are vesting that trust in him and in the game rules. That we agree not to sweat the small stuff, not to argue over minutia, not to indulge our pettiness, for sake of cooperation and the enjoyment of all. D&D is a cooperative game. It requires some level of cooperation and maturity to keep it flowing smoothly. But more than that, suspending our egos and petty desire to be right, is simply a good mantra to keep. Both the game and real life sort themselves out more often than not. A few small bad calls usually do not capsize us. Trouble comes, but remember what I tell my boy when teaching him to swim: "Don't panic. Keep moving." And if in the game's case, a bad call does lead to disaster, at least it's only a game.
ZombieDragon 02-09-07, 06:27 PM	First to the Ops suggestion : Is the Ref always right ? Yes. If you think no, and argue it what happens? Ejection from the game Is the Dm god always right ? Yes, their god. Is a great DM god? No, but darn close A DM has two jobs. One to tell the players what happens as a result of their actions and the other is adjudicate when needed. That’s an incredibly oversimplification of the DM’s duties. So the Dm doesn’t have to build lush worlds for the players to explore ? The DM doesn’t have to mind-read they player intentions as where to / how to keep the story flowing. The DM doesn’t have to formulate advance battle tactics for creatures. The Dm doesn’t create adventures for the players to work through. The Dm doesn’t have to keep the overall peace at the gaming table? Why are there more players than DM's ? It's tough to be a DM. (beware sacarm coming)It takes work, and players are usually lazy(end sarcasm). It’s not miniatures or a videogame. The Dm has a boatload of work to bring the story to the table. For that they are due a liberal dose of respect.
Salla 02-09-07, 06:46 PM	People seem to think that a DM is always right. DMs are not always right, however, what the DM says, goes. He can say that, for instance, elves get +6 to all stats and free gestalt wizard levels for no level adjustment, and that it's balanced. He'd be dead wrong. He can say it, and that's what goes in his game. But he'd be wrong. He can say that a rogue can sneak attack undead. He'd be wrong. He can say it, and that's what goes in his game, but he'd be wrong. What the DM says goes, and if he says enough stupid crap, his players go too.
Gedrin 02-09-07, 09:30 PM	What the DM says goes. It has to be that way durring the game. After the game, argue all you want, but don't be surprised if continual challenges make the DM tired of hearing your voice.
ragoftag 02-10-07, 01:52 AM	ed_the_mindflayer Default Re: DM always right? A good DM call right now VS The right call 30 minutes of looking in the books Replace the first line with: "A BAD DM call right now" and rerun it. The "DM is always right" myth started when players started to know the (few) rules in the 3 little white books better than Arneson or Gygax. It was a blunt trauma to silence malcontent know-it-alls like me. 30 years ago, the DMs used it to move things along. Now, low grade GMs use it as a blunt trauma to silence malcontent know-it-alls like me, who know the rules better than the GM. I have no problem with a fast call, but too many times it goes bad against the players. I cheat. My players average a bachelors degree, 15+ years playing and half have GMed. I have eaten slices of pizza while they conduct an aerial fight. Matt knows Metamagic feats better than I ever want to. John is a wiz at 'what the monsters would do', pulling stunts that escaped me! All I gotta do is interface them with the world. Actually, my gripe is a 'GM' allowing a 23 minute (yes, 3 of us timed it) player turn in which the foibles of Web were explored, then gave me 10 seconds to make my move...oh! almost forgot: instituted a "bodies are no longer 'picked up' when killed" house rule (obstructed terrain with Balance check of 10) and refused to discuss it. But what I loved was his "arguments after the game" (its cool) policy, but refusal to fix his mistakes when pointed out (Well, you should have brought it up while we were playing.). Even when his...ruling (?) cost 2 (new) characters' lives.
Giant_Moth 02-10-07, 03:30 AM	Rule nunber one: DM is always right. Rule number two: If DM is wrong, see rule number one. You know, the DM spends hours of his life to prepare for an exciting adventure, or good roleplay. He has the ultimate authority over the games, and not realising this is quite disrespectfull if you ask me. Also by not realising that DM's word is always right, can cause unesecery bickering. If you don't trust the final word of your GM, you might as well quit playing. I've seen many games with players who just dosn't respect the word of their GM, and refuses to give him the final word. These games always end in bickering and players trying to grab advantages for themselves through unesecery bickering and rules lawyering
Azar_of_Faerun 02-10-07, 03:33 AM	I DM, but it's amusing to see so many future tyrants in this thread :)
Geogoose 02-10-07, 07:34 AM	Well, yeah. The DM is always right. Except when he corrects himself or allows himself to be corrected, and then he's even righter. The above statement applies to the game the DM is running and not to anyone else's game or even when compared to the rules as written. It is part of the job. If the players were allowed to call the game there would be a conflict of interest as well as loss of risk and suspense.
Neutronium_Dragon 02-10-07, 07:46 AM	My observation is that "The DM is god" advocacy tends to equate to "The DM is the enemy of the PCs" advocacy. Assuming that you're playing a DM-vs-players confrontational game, the "DM is god" attitude might make some sense. In the context of most groups which are cooperative, the DM has whatever authority he's granted by the players. *Generally* this means that the DM's rulings will stand (if the rest of the group didn't trust his ability on that front, they wouldn't have made him the DM), but if the group as a whole feels that something should be otherwise ("No, giving elves +6 Str isn't balanced, Mr. DM".) then group consensus is the deciding factor. This assumes, of course, that everyone involved is being reasonable. It isn't likely to be reasonable to say that the NPC/monster doesn't do what the DM says it does in a given round of combat (unless there's some factor at work which the DM has forogtten), but if the group generally feels that such-and-such rule or standard needs to be tweaked (or kept the same) then that's what should hold; a good DM adapts to the desires of the players rather than trying to cop an attitude about it.
Bob Loblaw 02-10-07, 08:47 AM	You know, the DM spends hours of his life to prepare for an exciting adventure, or good roleplay. He has the ultimate authority over the games, and not realising this is quite disrespectfull if you ask me. What about the player(s) who also spend quite a bit of time with their characters getting to know them in and out? I spend hours working on my characters. I alwasy revisit them and work on ideas on how to get them to the next stage of their development. Shouldn't I get some level of authority as well? The DM should also respect the amount of time the players put into the game. Even if the players can only afford a few minutes during the week, they are spending several hours of their time in the world run by the DM. This means that the DM should do his best to make the calls fair and, when possible, fast. I don't have to spend my time gaming. I choose to because I enjoy the game. When that stops, so do I. I can do plenty of other things. The DM should always keep that in mind.
Chrono Nexus 02-10-07, 08:55 AM	The DM is not always right. Nobody is.
Archangel62 02-10-07, 08:55 AM	The DM isn't always right, they might be temporarily right but then will find a mistake later. I will generally go with what I say at the moment, (excepting an extreme circumstance like it meaning the possible survival or death of a character)
gmhack 02-10-07, 10:10 AM	Well, yeah. The DM is always right. Except when he corrects himself or allows himself to be corrected, and then he's even righter. This is so Sigged! Within the confines of his game, the DM has to be right. If for no other reason than to stop the session from devolving into a 6 hour argument on how things are. The DMs word ends all argument, and for that to be the case the game has to support the DMs total athourity in all calls, as far as the game is concerned.
Rogue Shadows 02-10-07, 10:26 AM	Hmm. When I DM, I basically think of myself as being in total control of everything that isn't the player characters, over which I have zero control. I provide the monsters for them to hack n' slash through, 'cause that's the kind of players I've got. I'm not complaining. My will is enforced by the threat of my Wrath of the DM spell. I've only ever had to use it once. It deals 30,000d20+30,000 damage to the target. Ignores spell resistance and DR, but a Fortitude save (DC 19) halves the damage. If they fail the save, their character ceases to of ever existed. If they succeed, he simply dies. Painfully and messily. Gets everything around him soaked in blood. The irony being that DC 19 is perfectly achievable by most characters, but the spell will still kill them.
Chimaera2000 02-10-07, 02:53 PM	Of course the DM isn't always right. We're human, it's impossible for us to not make mistakes! However, my personal experience has been that unless PC survival is at stake, it's best to let the DM make a call (even a bad one) now in order to keep gameplay moving. The player should certainly address their concern during a break, else the DM won't be able to correct their mistake. However, it's not that much fun for anyone to have gameplay bogged down while individuals search for rulebooks. I say this as both a player and a DM, although I do have the bad habit of getting into rules arguments when I'm a player. I need to bite my tongue in the future, even if I'm 99% sure that the DM is wrong. :)
ravenshrike 02-10-07, 06:46 PM	Hmm. When I DM, I basically think of myself as being in total control of everything that isn't the player characters, over which I have zero control. I provide the monsters for them to hack n' slash through, 'cause that's the kind of players I've got. I'm not complaining. My will is enforced by the threat of my Wrath of the DM spell. I've only ever had to use it once. It deals 30,000d20+30,000 damage to the target. Ignores spell resistance and DR, but a Fortitude save (DC 19) halves the damage. If they fail the save, their character ceases to of ever existed. If they succeed, he simply dies. Painfully and messily. Gets everything around him soaked in blood. The irony being that DC 19 is perfectly achievable by most characters, but the spell will still kill them. Unless, of course, he's a Hexblade. In which case he sidesteps and the spell hits the nearest BBEG.
Coridan 02-10-07, 07:05 PM	But when a DM consistently rules in a way that upsets the players, they can "vote with their feet". Nice to know I'm not the only person who has kicked a DM in the nuts once.
Salla 02-10-07, 07:12 PM	Nice to know I'm not the only person who has kicked a DM in the nuts once. I think he means leaving. Yours is fun too, though.
Olskool 02-10-07, 07:12 PM	Nice to know I'm not the only person who has kicked a DM in the nuts once. Even when doubled over on his knees in extreme pain, the DM is still always right.
Chrono Nexus 02-10-07, 07:24 PM	Even when doubled over on his knees in extreme pain, the DM is still always right. Even when his games lack players, the DM is still always right.
kelvinaw273 02-10-07, 07:46 PM	People seem to think that a DM is always right. A DM has two jobs. One to tell the players what happens as a result of their actions and the other is adjudicate when needed. Other people view the DM as if he was a mighty God and we are just petty mortals at his feat. Why is this? Is the DM really the Overlord of the game, or a mere Ref to make rules based calls? Yes, the DM is god. He has created the game, he has probably spent more hours planning and preparing and reading up than most people who don't DM can appreciate. So no, you don't dictate to him how to run the game. On the other hand he does not have a game without players, and usually his goal is to present the players with a good game. This is usually only ever a problem when you get players who want the game to go some other way than the DM has prepared for, and most of these problems are a case of poor communication between the two. At the end of the day, every game has some moment in time when somebody has to have the authority to say: "Stop that, it is spoiling the game, if you persist you have to leave" or words to that effect. The DM is that person.
ragoftag 02-11-07, 11:20 AM	Neutronium_Dragon: My observation is that "The DM is god" advocacy tends to equate to "The DM is the enemy of the PCs" advocacy. ...a good DM adapts...Just wanted to pluck these two gems out for proper appreciation! Beautiful! But the second? I now have a gaming phrase I WOULD tatoo on the insides of my eyelids!:D