Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TheGnomishWizard 11-06-04, 08:45 PM	Ok, so I was running a game all summer for 4 of my good friends. Everything was great. Until one night I ask my players what kind of things they would like to do in the future of the game. One of my players said the following... "I don't care. It's your job to entertain me." Arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!! !!!!11 I couldn't believe he said that. I was so ******. Soon after school started so we haven't had a chance to game in a month or so. I started talking about getting it going again but I told them that I didn't spend hundreds of dollars on books and dice just to "entertain" them. When I told them I didn't want to run for anyone who didn't want to play some significant role in keeping the game up and running (helping me with quest ideas, personal histories to create quest from, helping with developing our home brew world, etc) that I didn't want them playing at all. So 2 of the four fit into that catagory. They spent much of today telling me I was being an ass for requesting their help. Am I being harsh? Cause I really don't think so.
Coran 11-06-04, 09:18 PM	I Don't think you were being harsh but i think you might want to calm down and explain it to them better. Or you could get a baseball bat and beat the stuffing out of them. THen you would go to jail for assult and battery and possibly other charges depending on how bad you beat the Stuffing out of them.
Seeker95 11-07-04, 09:23 AM	I agree with your players. And with you. But not with your reaction. It is your job as the DM to provide the adventures, challenges, and environment. If they find that entertaining, then great. P.S. What do you have to spend hundreds of dollars for? You already have the DMG, PHB and MM, right? I got all three for $61 after shipping and handling. So once you have these, the rest comes from elbow grease (pencil and paper and imagination). You weren't an ass for requesting their help. You were an ass in how you responded to their reply. But all is not lost. You can sit down with them again and ask them for background stories on their characters. If you have the Hero Builder's Guidebook, use it. Lots of plotline opportunities there. You could also ask them to take a Meyers-Briggs personality test in character. The results will also give you lots of ideas. But asking them where they want to go or do... Many a relationship has ended in the asking of that question. It is almost as bad as whatcha thinkin'?
Benjy Mouse 11-08-04, 01:01 AM	In some ways, you were lucky that you got an honest answer from them. I made the mistake of asking my group what they wanted, and they proceeded to tell me what they thought I wanted to hear. Several game sessions later, I'm puzzling over their obvious disgruntlement (if that is a word), and they finally tell me that it doesn't matter what I put in front of them, as long as they are allowed to kill it. They wanted hack 'n' slash, and I was giving them intrigue 'n' politics. Asking for help seems fair. I ended up doing just that. DMing a hack and slash game bores me after a while, so I needed them to take over the DMing sometimes, so I could stay interested. It has worked out OK so far...
nekrolog 11-08-04, 01:54 AM	It seems funny to me that your game was running smoothly until you asked for their input. Is there any reason you can't just keep doing what you were doing all summer, and ignore the comment?
TheRedRobedWizard 11-08-04, 09:06 AM	It sounds to me that the original poster was one of those "buys all the dice and books for his players" kinda DMs. First of all, my suggestion is this: Tell each player that they *have* to have a cohesive backstory. Laziness and apathy do not a good game make. Secondly, ask them what they want; whether it be hack and slash, political manuvering, or ninja thievery. Thirdly, if you are as I suspected you were (with the buying of books and dice for your players and asking nothing in return) STOP!!! If any players don't have their own dice, have them spend 3.99 and go buy some. I mean really, they could just save all the change they find on the street for a week and be able to buy a set of dice. Same principle goes for PHBs and the like. Meanwhile, tell all of your players that you didn't mean to flip out on them or anything, but that you were just tired of everyone expecting you to do all the work. D&D is a group game. That means everyone in the group has to contribute to the game, or the game doesn't work. -TRRW
Lord_Anthrax 11-08-04, 11:37 AM	Well, I think what your player said was very rude and insensitive and tactless, and it's very understandable that you got upset. Of course, your reply to them didn't have to be that way. It seems to me you should apologize for blowing up at them, and then explain that being a DM is a lot of work and involves time and energy, and how that comment made you feel taken for granted and your work unappreciated. Explain that you asked for their input because you want to make the game better for everyone involved, and see what happens. Hopefully they'll be more understanding after that, and hopefully your player will apologize for his rude mistake. If they're your friends, they should be able to get past your and their emotional outbursts and focus on keeping the friendship you share alive. Best wishes!
TheGnomishWizard 11-08-04, 08:54 PM	To all those that said I should sit down with them and explain my "case" a little better and calmly. That has already come to pass. In fact it was after that very conversation that I got so angry. Before I was just a little bothered by the comment. I figured after I talked to them I could make them see things from my point of veiw. Instead I not only didn't get anywhere with them, but it got worse in that they are too stubborn to even take a look at things from my POV. I wrote this post after that second conversation, my original response was simply that they didn't know where I was coming from since none of them have ever DMed.
Seeker95 11-08-04, 09:11 PM	I figured after I talked to them I could make them see things from my point of veiw. Instead I not only didn't get anywhere with them, but it got worse in that they are too stubborn to even take a look at things from my POV.Here is your problem. You can never make anyone see things from your point of view. At best, you can merely try to see things from their point of view. Listen to their answers. They said they don't care where it goes. It's your job to entertain them. And if you're the DM, they're right. If they are entertained by whatever you throw their way, great. They haven't complained thus far, so your DM direction up to then was fine. Now you're griping because they don't have any ideas for you?
Lord_Anthrax 11-09-04, 02:13 AM	Well, in that case, do you still want to game with them? If so, then pick it up and keep on truckin'. As long as you still have fun doing it, then just try and put it behind you and enjoy yourself. If you don't, then don't feel obligated to do so. Either take a break from it, or just find some new players and start over with a fresh group.
General Dorsey 11-09-04, 02:38 AM	First, let me say that I agree with you. You are not there for their mere entertainment. I have had players say that to me and I have told them that I would appreciate their input into the game. However, my players have been gaming for over 20 years each, they know better. As to your dilemma, I think that you may want to review what happened. First, as you have stated, you spoke with them twice. Each time you felt that they were being stubborn and not seeing things from your point of view. What about you seeing from their point of view? They made it very clear that they expect the DM to provide a framework for the adventure and then run it so that they can have a good time. It may not have been stated like that, but that is what I got from your original post. Second, you could do what they ask. Provide the adventures they want. In order to do this, let them know that you need a few things from them. Let them know that you need to know where their characters come from and where they expect the PCs to be in 5 levels, in 10, in 15. Ask them to provide a simple 2-5 sentence background so that you have something to work with. Do all this the first day of the session. Third, when trying to get your point across, remember that you will usually have a better chance if you try to understand what the other person is saying. Make sure that you rephrase what they said to be sure that you understand. Don't fight with them about it. They have their opinion and are entitled to it. You have yours and are entitled as well. See how you can make both work together. This doesn't have to be an "either-or" option. I think that you can make this work. It will require work on your part as well as theirs. Sometimes the players forget how much work the DM actually has to put into the game. Other times the DM forgets how much the players simply want a game where they don't have to do too much extra work. I know that when I was in college, the last thing I wanted to do was work on my adventures. With school taking up so much time and work taking up the rest, I wanted someone else to run things and I didn't care what type of adventure as long as it wasn't puzzles and mystery. Another DM stepped up to the plate and relieved me. Perhaps that is all they want. They want to enjoy the work you have put into things. It can be seen as a sign of respect. If you need to, ask one of them to run things for a while so you can work on the adventures they want. It may help them see things from another side.
Roxlimn 11-09-04, 02:59 AM	It's unfortunate how inane use of English vernacular can alienate people so much. It's probably truer that you were angered by the connotations of what your friend said rather than what he was trying to say. For the sake of simplicity, I will interpret your saying "good friends" as friends you really like and are close to. On some level, he's right. It is your "job" to "entertain" him. On another level, he isn't. It's his "job", too. The problem here is the connotation between "job" and "entertain" and how they connect in that sentence. "I don't care" is pretty blunt and frankly offensive, too. He probably meant "We"re fine with whatever you can give us." Rather than "I don't care about what trouble you have to go through." You're right. You didn't spend hundreds of dollars in games and dice to entertain them. You spent hundred of dollars in games and dice to entertain you. The problem with thinking like this is that playing D&D is like playing with a seesaw or tag. It doesn't work if you're playing alone. To that extent, you have to keep up your end of the bargain as DM. If you don't like being DM, then just admit it and find someone who does, or agree to share the burden, because if no one DMs, no one plays, right? To some extent developing player characters is the DMs purview. He checks which classes are right, which Prestige Classes are open for taking, how the PCs are balanced against each other, etc, etc. He also creates character backgrounds and world backgrounds as they are required. Player character background is usually the purview of the player and something players usually like to do, but if they aren't interested and you OK your idea with the player in question, then it becomes your responsibility to develop PC background if that PCs background is central to the plot you're running. Developing homebrew feats, Prestige Classes, and the organizations that go with them are usually also player activities, and favorite activities, if my groups are anything to go by. These creations, are, of course, subject to your approval (like everything else), but IMX, players like to create roles, niches, and stories about the PCs that they play. Ultimately, it's your responsibility to tie everything in in a manner that everyone is happy with. This ties in to a basic truth about D&D and life. It isn't your responsibility to entertain your players. They have to do that themselves. If they don't want to have fun, nothing you do will make a difference, and that is ultimately why the responsibility lies on them. At the same time, it is your responsiblity to run the home brew world as it is their responsibility to make decisions about the PCs actions. D&D is a social game. That means it doesn't work if you and your players are seriously at odds with each other. Seeker95 is right. Forget about telling them how it is from your POV. They'll never get it because they don't want to get it. Just run things in a manner that is fun for you and for everyone else.
Guttercrawl 11-09-04, 07:22 AM	All of the advice you have gotten thus far has been very good & very helpful; both to you & handling your players. I'm not that way. First off ---- YOU are the Dungeon Master. A title not taken lightly. You are the Hand of Fate for any who dare to tread the lands of your imagination. Take it from me, if you involve the players in your world building there will be trouble from the start. If this is a home brew campaign world, then it's your baby. No one else is going to help you nurture this little guy along. Take control. You have the core books. If you want ideas for adventures, histories or anything --- don't go to the players. There is alot of ideas around you --- these boards are a great source of inspiration. Bottom line --- if your players are having fun & you aren't. Change it! If they like hack' n' slash & you like intrigue --- give them all they can handle. Give it too them till the handle breaks off & they ask you to please stop this hellish train, they wanta get off. They world is yours. Your imagination fuels it & gives it life. Drop their sorry butts in the middle of it & tell them " Today is a great day to die. Who brought the dice. "
TheGnomishWizard 11-09-04, 11:40 AM	Okay, with all the great advice I recieved I think I know what I am going to do. First off I invited two newbies into the group. I need someone fresh that isn't barred by min/maxing so that I can get a fresh view on the game. Second I am going to lay down the line and say that I won't DM all by myself. I need someone to relieve me from time to time so that I can gather my ideas. Lastly I will ask them what kind of campaign they want to play in, and I'm almost sure they will say hack and slash, in which case I will throw everything I've got at them. Thanks.
Seradec 11-09-04, 01:44 PM	In my opinion just to round things off, always try to add a spur of exitement to the campaign when the players least expect it and introduce funly challenging but not annoying obstacles. I am always introducing new players as well and have two different weeks for two different parties, this way, the old players never get bored as newbies come in, giving the old players a sense of power and confidence in you. There you are lol