Post/Author/DateTime	Post
mastergate 08-12-05, 04:05 PM	This is my first raw Draft, example city will follow in 1 or 2 weeks It seem that the table that I made don't here any way :weep: :confused: This system has been inspired for many turn by turn games and 2ED of AD&D. The formula for the system has been done using upkeep, salary and equipment cost of WotC. (FINDING ALL OF THEM TOOK ME AROUND 3 WEEKS OF HARD WORKD SO DON’T TAKE THE CREDIT ALL TO YOU. BUT ENJOYS USING THEM!!! This system is compatible whit WotC GP limit system but it has a new and more balance cash flow rules. Example: WotC: 175,000,000 gp, MGE: 17,500,000 GP for an population of 35,000 people for an Metropolis this is an off. (Too much money is to Much money in the world were do you put it anyway!!!!) And if you need a 38,500,000 GP for an 50 LV PC, well go to an cosmopolite or Sigil OR bigger) This system has been created for PC and DM that allowed the PC to run is own town or land. This system will control the evolution of PC town by is decision on happiness and grown of is people, military effort, economic power and most importantly how much money that the PC get from is people that he rule. (And for the management of economic system calculation that he must do) The DM is free to put cataclysm or good thinks to happen to the PC. You might need the 3.5 DMG book page 100-101-130-105 First you much fill this form: Name of the city: Government: Might have impact on the happiness and income or departure of people in your town. Religion: Flavor Importation: This is what the PC need for him or for the evolution of is people or land, etc. Exportation: This is whit what the PC and is business man or going to make money whit. Alignment: Flavor Population: USE the WotC table Territory: xxx miles * xxx miles Water: % Very poor, poor, average, good, very good, excellent and out standing ground for culture: % Habitation ground use: % Waste or unusable ground (polluted, war raging, curse, etc.): % Mines: (iron, bronze, silver, diamond, etc.): % and how long the mine could be exploited xx years Type of forest and quality of wood: % (DM judge depending on the player use of wood went the % of wood increase or decrease by the pc action on it) LEGEND: xxx= number of people xxx * 1%= XXX * 0.01 (300*1%=3: 300*0.01=3) TV= Total Value GPLMpSC= GP Limit Modifier per Social Class DO NOT CHANGE Cast Flow: This is the amount of money that flow through the city in a month. Owner Pay: This is the money that the PC get from owning the city. Available money expend: this is the PC available money to run the expend of is city. DMC: DM choice. That means that it is the DM how decided the number that goes there went generating the city. PCC: PC choice. That means that it is the PC how decided the number that goes there, this will influence the moral, happiness, like and dislike of is people toward the PC decision. GPV, GPValue, (???)= xxx*Upkeep* GPLMpSC (%) Second fill this form: Name of the city: Total population: % of the pop. Upkeep GPLMpSC (%) Taxes (%) GPV DMC DMC PCC Xxx Military 5 to 20 - - - - This represents any sort of military unit: 5%=peaceful 10=normal 15=aggressive or defensive of something for some time in the pas 20=always been and always will be in war. The military class doesn’t have an upkeep because then don’t get taxed. Xxx Commoner 60 to 80 1 to 40 (16) 1 1 to 10 ??? This represents the normal worker, peasant and the normal social class. The % of the population is influence by the total population, quality and quantity of the ground for culture, the water resourcefulness in food and drinkable ness. The commoner get it upkeep by live on is how self-supporting work, selling or offering goods or services and working for somebody else. If those goods are service are not available are not in demand the upkeep can go very low or be very high. If the PC invest money for each commoner to give them better equipment for the work they have to do, that may give them better upkeep the when the special commodity or equipment wasn’t there. All technological or technical advancements that the PC adds to the existing ones, may with time (approved by the DM) put the general upkeep higher. The taxes are normally set at 5%. Below that number the taxes could bring happiness to your people, more people could want to stay, more kids, etc. Above that the people might not like you if you don’t have some special care or treatment for then to justify that high taxes level or they may not like the PC, want to leave or rebel. Xxx Merchants 10 to 30 35 to 200 1 10 to 40 ??? Or even higher This represents the trader, people that run a business, lower and middle class aristocrat. The % of that population depends on what your people have and need to sell or to buy. Importation is what you need for others PC don’t get money out of that normally, exportations is want PC sell. Let say that you sell common equipment, food and drink you get 35 GP of upkeep. If you sell diamond finish jewelries, full plate armor in mithral or adamantine, siege engine, boats, exotic goods, etc, your upkeep could go up to 200 GP. It could go higher if you sell mass magic item but you better be well armed to protect your town from your greedy neighbors. The taxes are normally around 15% to 20% but if you want more trader to come by your town well put it lower then 15%. If you have the exclusivities of some thing (exp: adamantine) you could put it higher but there is still a risk that then will goes trade else where but you are going to make more money. You are a tyrant if you go around 30% and up. Xxx Expert 0.5 to 5 100 to 250 1 5 to 15 ??? And upper class This represent the sage, master crafter, engineer, etc and the upper class aristocrat that are in your town. The % of this group is normally around 1or 2%but it is greatly influence by the % of taxes you put them or and how much do you pay then are get pay for doing there work, because it is them that train your people to do better work, them that get ours master work gear, weapon, armor, etc, that your merchant sell and your commoner worker work for them. So they are very important in a community. For the upper aristocrat they do the ruling stuff that you don’t do. The taxes are normally around 10% but if you what more expert to come by yours town if you need them to train your people to do some specific work, well lower there taxes because most of the time they can come are goes as they please because if you don’t they will go else where. Xxx Criminal 1 to 25 20 to 150 10 -5 to 50 -??? These represent the thief, evil doer, contraband guys, vandalism, etc. This % is influenced by the choice of the PC ruler ship toward that group of people, how I make is law respected, if I have enough guards for the job??? This % of this group depends on the decision of the DM vs. the action of the PC toward that problem, example: raise the salary of your guard to do this extra work, hired mercenary to do the job, etc. Now the taxes or may I say lost depend on the DM (or maybe the PC) criminality % of that town that I choose. That money is lost are if the pc is the leader of the criminal organization and in the same time the ruler of the town this money is gained $$$. Total population: % of the pop. Upkeep GPLMpSC (%) Taxes (%) GPV DMC DMC PCC Xxx Military 5 to 20 - - - - Xxx Commoner 60 to 80 1 to 40 (16) 1 1 to 10 ??? Xxx Merchants 10 to 30 35 to 200 1 10 to 40 ??? Or even higher Xxx Expert 0.5 to 5 100 to 250 1 5 to 15 ??? And upper class Xxx Criminal 1 to 25 20 to 150 10 5 to 50 ??? Now part three. Economy: x in month and year that you had this town Total expandable money: per month Commoners taxes: (xxx*GPV*%taxes) GPL: (net profit*10%) Merchants taxes: (xxx*GPV*%taxes) Total cast flow: (net profit*10) Expert class taxes: (xxx*GPV*%taxes) Owner pay: (net profit*1%) Criminal lost (Gain): (xxx*GPV*%taxes) Total expandable money: Commoners taxes + Merchants taxes + Upper class taxes - Criminal lost The MC is for the material, worker, maid, sailor administrator, etc, to keep your building or boats, port, equipment, etc, in good shape trough out the year. Expand: per month Total value on your Maintaining cost Responsibility (TV) (MC) Military salary: xxx*salary You can use the salary in the DMG book for one month not in day please You can alter it according to what you have in your army, special unit, 10 lv leaders Expert and upper class salary: xxx*salary You can use the salary in the DMG book for one month not in day please You can alter it according to what you have in your town, special unit, 10 lv crafters Military architecture: TV*0.5% ex.: 1 huge castle 1.000.000, 10 month at 100.000 To have the TV you must determine how many building do you take in charge then take there market price and add then up. You can spend money to build castle, walls, etc, use stronghold builder rule for that Commoner architecture: the MC is optional TV*0.25% To have the TV you must determine how many building do you take in charge then take there market price and add then up. You can spend money to build more homes for your people, stable, irrigation facilities, the thing to make cereal, etc. This could be a good investment to have the people on your side, better upkeep for then. Naval construction: TV*5% To have the TV you must determine how many port and boats do you take in charge then take there market price and add then up. You can spend money to build more ports, boats, etc. This could be good for your military and for increasing your merchants and commoners upkeep. Siege machine: TV*0.25% To have the TV you must determine how many siege machine do you take in charge then take there market price and add then up. Military equipment: TV*0.05% To have the TV you must choose what equipment that you want you’re military to have in equipment and what kind of unit you what to have. (Example: 1000*1000gp=1.000.000gp for 1000 full plate) You can have other source of expand like buying better tool for your commoner, magic development, education, etc, if possible. Now to have the net profit you most take all your expand and MC add then up and subtract them for your total expandable money. Now be careful to be able to cover at least your MC cost if you don’t want to see your thing go slowly in ruin. The PC is might not need to spend money in all those domain if he don’t want to have boats constructed this month well don’t do it. But if you want a huge castle at 1.000.000 you could spend 10.000 per month for 8 years and 4 month or maybe least. Name of the city: Government: Might have impact on the happiness and income or departure of people in your town. Religion: Flavor Importation: This is what the PC need for him or for the evolution of is people or land, etc. Exportation: This is whit what the PC and is business man or going to make money whit. Alignment: Flavor Population: USE the WotC table Territory: xxx miles * xxx miles Water: % Very poor, poor, average, good, very good, excellent and out standing ground for culture: % Habitation ground use: % Waste or unusable ground (polluted, war raging, curse, etc.): % Mines: (iron, bronze, silver, diamond, etc.): % and how long the mine could be exploited xx years Type of forest and quality of wood: % (DM judge depending on the player use of wood went the % of wood increase or decrease by the pc action on it) LEGEND: xxx= number of people xxx * 1%= XXX * 0.01 (300*1%=3: 300*0.01=3) TV= Total Value GPLMpSC= GP Limit Modifier per Social Class DO NOT CHANGE Cast Flow: This is the amount of money that flow through the city in a month. Owner Pay: This is the money that the PC get from owning the city. Available money expend: this is the PC available money to run the expend of is city. DMC: DM choice. That means that it is the DM how decided the number that goes there went generating the city. PCC: PC choice. That means that it is the PC how decided the number that goes there, this will influence the moral, happiness, like and dislike of is people toward the PC decision. GPV, GPValue, (???)= xxx*Upkeep* GPLMpSC (%) Total population: % of the pop. Upkeep GPLMpSC (%) Taxes (%) GPV DMC DMC PCC Xxx Military 5 to 20 - - - - Xxx Commoner 60 to 80 1 to 40 (16) 1 1 to 10 ??? Xxx Merchants 10 to 30 35 to 200 1 10 to 40 ??? Or even higher Xxx Expert 0.5 to 5 100 to 250 1 5 to 15 ??? And upper class Xxx Criminal 1 to 25 20 to 150 10 5 to 50 ??? Economy: x in month and year that you had this town Total expandable money: per month Commoners taxes: (xxx*GPV*%taxes) GPL: (net profit*10%) Merchants taxes: (xxx*GPV*%taxes) Total cast flow: (net profit*10) Expert class taxes: (xxx*GPV*%taxes) Owner pay: (net profit*1%) Criminal lost (Gain): (xxx*GPV*%taxes) Total expandable money: Commoners taxes + Merchants taxes + Upper class taxes - Criminal lost Expand: per month Total value on your Maintaining cost Responsibility (TV) (MC) Military salary: xxx*salary Expert and upper class salary: xxx*salary Military architecture: TV*0.5% Commoner architecture: the MC is optional TV*0.25% Naval construction: TV*5% Siege machine: TV*0.25% Military equipment: TV*0.05% You can have other source of expand like buying better tool for your commoner, magic development, education, etc, if possible. Now to have the net profit you most take all your expand and MC add then up and subtract them for your total expandable money. Now be careful to be able to cover at least your MC cost if you don’t want to see your thing go slowly in ruin.
ORC_Paradox 08-12-05, 04:08 PM	If you've got a point to make, please make it so the community can discuss it. Spamming the boards will only get your posting privilages removed.
mastergate 08-12-05, 04:20 PM	i new so it was a test sorry but it is change now
Lina_Inverse 08-12-05, 05:06 PM	no one is intrested because a real economy cannot exist with D&D physics. all those lvl1 commoners would die of starvation.as anyone but a full caster wouldnt help the economy at all.everyone would go to caster school or be considered worthless :P fabricate means armor takes moments. plant growth can feed dozens. etc. etc.
nyysjan 08-12-05, 05:11 PM	actually IMO the eberron system has somewhat sensible economic system in it (not the raw details but the overview and outlook) and 1st level commoner with 4 levels of craft and a skill focus feat can get 7 gold per weak (more than enough to live off)
mastergate 08-12-05, 05:25 PM	actually IMO the eberron system has somewhat sensible economic system in it (not the raw details but the overview and outlook) and 1st level commoner with 4 levels of craft and a skill focus feat can get 7 gold per weak (more than enough to live off) Today 05:06 PM THis is not enought to tell you how must do the ruler get for running a town Lina_Inverse no one is intrested because a real economy cannot exist with D&D physics. all those lvl1 commoners would die of starvation.as anyone but a full caster wouldnt help the economy at all.everyone would go to caster school or be considered worthless fabricate means armor takes moments. plant growth can feed dozens. etc. etc. i dont think that you are right because not every town or every one has is spellcaster guy in town and not every caster abuse of is casting abilities a bit of imagination here and a lot of role play and if it work like that no one would need money anyway silly :P
Lina_Inverse 08-12-05, 05:32 PM	i dont think that you are right because not every town or every one has is spellcaster guy in town and not every caster abuse of is casting abilities a bit of imagination here and a lot of role play and if it work like that no one would need money anyway silly :P rp wise every caster will abuse there spells.if only to make money out of greed.good charecters would do it.but either way everyone would try to make sure there kids became casters,not being a caster would be like living off welfare and it would be a huge social stigmata.
mastergate 08-12-05, 07:05 PM	rp wise every caster will abuse there spells.if only to make money out of greed.good charecters would do it.but either way everyone would try to make sure there kids became casters,not being a caster would be like living off welfare and it would be a huge social stigmata. sorry but i dont think that every commoner could become a spellcaster anyway that why comoner existe and i dont think that everi world is made on hight magic campaine and what do you do when magic in some place in illigal or forbiden
Kojiro James 08-12-05, 11:17 PM	rp wise every caster will abuse there spells.if only to make money out of greed.good charecters would do it.but either way everyone would try to make sure there kids became casters,not being a caster would be like living off welfare and it would be a huge social stigmata. "Social stigmata?" Huh? So everyone bleeds from their palms? I think you mean "stigma."
Ut-Napishtim 08-13-05, 01:05 AM	I want to know if any of you guys would like to see a economic presice system that has been made for PC that want to rule a town. My system respect the poor game mechanic that WotC did gave us like GP limit, upkeep and the salary of worker. With this system the DM and the PC truly know what going in is town, how much money do the PC get for ruling is town. Please post in. I want to know if any body is interested. I do not want to put it for nothing. ;) Well really it depends on your tax rate. High taxes will stunt economic growth and while giving you a good return short-term will ultimately "kill the goose that lays the golden eggs" in the long term. Meanwhile low taxes will ensure a continued supply of funds, but rarely enough to sustain expenditures (like city guards, street repairs, and dungsweepers for public health, etc.) In reality my feeble grasp of economics doesn't even come close to understanding some of the more complex theories that are out there today. That's why it's left ambiguous in the RAW IMHO. As a DM personally I would allow my PC(s) to live a luxurious lifestyle with no economic change. If they wanted to raise taxes to buy magic items, it would ultimately stifle the economy. If they wanted to pay out of their own pocket into the community instead (while still enjoying the lifestyle of course), they would gain popularity and population in their town. So in a nutshell, governing a town is pretty much a break-even with free room and board (although nice room and board to be sure, and the political power is nice too). If you start to mess with that in either direction, the results will reflect that. Simplistic? Yes. But good enough for D&D without a lot of number crunching on the part of the DM IMHO. :twocents:
Lina_Inverse 08-13-05, 02:25 PM	sorry but i dont think that every commoner could become a spellcaster anyway that why comoner existe and i dont think that everi world is made on hight magic campaine and what do you do when magic in some place in illigal or forbiden question.do you have any understanding of the human mind? how many cultures outlaw technology irl? now how many cultures will outlaw magic,a similiar percentage.humans will treat magic like technology or its bad roleplaying.because were humans,its who we are we exploit our advanteges.and if you can wiggle your fingers to instantly do something well we would wiggle alot of fingers. you wanted a D&D economy therefore there is no outlawing magic,because humans would never do it if we had it irl.
rbrt_Spade 08-13-05, 02:41 PM	yes the system is to complex to have a all around enomics i do taxes,tithes-about 5%-10% i do the wage rates in the dmg3.0/a&e with my profession/craft i use gp limit i like the standard easy dnd coinage then rewriting them for your game anyways what player cares about a bogged down dnd world mark up trade anyways? its a roleplaying game!
Lorianne 08-13-05, 03:37 PM	I've given one of my parties a small keep with a couple of square miles of land. On it is a small fishing village, it's nigh to self sufficient. The party gets some gold from the community in the form of taxes, and I've ruled that it's enough to cover the standard living costs for them and the wages of their personnel. If they've got extra costs (upgrading security by buying a couple of ballistas), they've got to pay for it themselves. Also, to get the taxes, they have to provide service to the community (providing protection for the community, law enforcement, basic healthcare). It's pretty simplistic, and I honestly wouldn't know how to run it on a larger scale (for large towns and cities), but it works fine for them. I guess you could calculate how many working people you have in the community, and calculate their average wages. You could then compare those figures with their corresponding upkeep, and figure out how much money you can get from taxes. Also, if you're running a larger town or a city, you're bound to get adventurers in them; as they generally have more money than the common folk, you could set up special taxes for them (like they have to pay a percentage of the loot they get in the area, toll for coming through the area/city because they're likely to be strangers there, that sort of thing). It would take a lot of effort, but I do know that there are DMs who like this form of realism in their worlds, so I can imagine that they would go through the trouble of working their way through this.
rbrt_Spade 08-13-05, 03:50 PM	i would just use the average wages/gp for each class(middle etc),taxes on entering the city,trade etc.,on idems or just charge say 1sp per month and everyone(amount of ppl in town)-3/4 pay it
mastergate 08-13-05, 04:06 PM	question.do you have any understanding of the human mind? how many cultures outlaw technology irl? now how many cultures will outlaw magic,a similiar percentage.humans will treat magic like technology or its bad roleplaying.because were humans,its who we are we exploit our advanteges.and if you can wiggle your fingers to instantly do something well we would wiggle alot of fingers. you wanted a D&D economy therefore there is no outlawing magic,because humans would never do it if we had it irl. i think it is you that don't undersand the nature of human kind they make stupid mistake and do great thing but most of the time we do it the bad way. because most stupid guy are to greedy and easy come easy goes then say. know stop arguin me and let dicuss like adult not like some kids have respect and open mind.i do understand your piont but you do not what to see mine. my sytem was made for regular town whit normal people and no abusing of super magic, it more durable and reliable for any kind of world. and even if there is super magic every where there still a economie to do because the human kind like you say it will and always will trade or (war) whit one an others anyway so there is still a need for an economic sytem!!! if you what yours support sociatie mage to et pay any way.
mastergate 08-13-05, 04:15 PM	I've given one of my parties a small keep with a couple of square miles of land. On it is a small fishing village, it's nigh to self sufficient. The party gets some gold from the community in the form of taxes, and I've ruled that it's enough to cover the standard living costs for them and the wages of their personnel. If they've got extra costs (upgrading security by buying a couple of ballistas), they've got to pay for it themselves. Also, to get the taxes, they have to provide service to the community (providing protection for the community, law enforcement, basic healthcare). It's pretty simplistic, and I honestly wouldn't know how to run it on a larger scale (for large towns and cities), but it works fine for them. I guess you could calculate how many working people you have in the community, and calculate their average wages. You could then compare those figures with their corresponding upkeep, and figure out how much money you can get from taxes. Also, if you're running a larger town or a city, you're bound to get adventurers in them; as they generally have more money than the common folk, you could set up special taxes for them (like they have to pay a percentage of the loot they get in the area, toll for coming through the area/city because they're likely to be strangers there, that sort of thing). It would take a lot of effort, but I do know that there are DMs who like this form of realism in their worlds, so I can imagine that they would go through the trouble of working their way through this. thank that is a good comment that is a good example of what i want :D :) i did do that work woud wo be interested in having the system???? ;)
Lorianne 08-13-05, 04:49 PM	Thank you, but no. I'm not really interested in a full system for working out the economics. I like to keep the whole economic system on the background for my campaigns, but I had to do something about it in this case... I couldn't keep it away from then because the party had such a role in it all.
mastergate 08-13-05, 04:50 PM	Well really it depends on your tax rate. High taxes will stunt economic growth and while giving you a good return short-term will ultimately "kill the goose that lays the golden eggs" in the long term. Meanwhile low taxes will ensure a continued supply of funds, but rarely enough to sustain expenditures (like city guards, street repairs, and dungsweepers for public health, etc.) In reality my feeble grasp of economics doesn't even come close to understanding some of the more complex theories that are out there today. That's why it's left ambiguous in the RAW IMHO. As a DM personally I would allow my PC(s) to live a luxurious lifestyle with no economic change. If they wanted to raise taxes to buy magic items, it would ultimately stifle the economy. If they wanted to pay out of their own pocket into the community instead (while still enjoying the lifestyle of course), they would gain popularity and population in their town. So in a nutshell, governing a town is pretty much a break-even with free room and board (although nice room and board to be sure, and the political power is nice too). If you start to mess with that in either direction, the results will reflect that. Simplistic? Yes. But good enough for D&D without a lot of number crunching on the part of the DM IMHO. :twocents: same thing here tanks
MikeTheAmazingMuskrat 08-13-05, 05:03 PM	Please post in. I want to know if any body is interested. I do not want to put it for nothing. ;) Cool, dUde. Post it. I'm interested. -mike the amazing muskrat
Lina_Inverse 08-13-05, 05:04 PM	know stop arguin me and let dicuss like adult not like some kids have respect and open mind.i do understand your piont but you do not what to see mine. my sytem was made for regular town whit normal people and no abusing of super magic, it more durable and reliable for any kind of world. and even if there is super magic every where there still a economie to do because the human kind like you say it will and always will trade or (war) whit one an others anyway so there is still a need for an economic sytem!!! if you what yours support sociatie mage to et pay any way. Then your system is for a realistic medevil economics which i can find easily.However D&D has super magic,and humans arent that dumb.They will realize magic is an advantege and abuse it.The period of omg magic is evil long would have passed in any D&D world since D&D worlds often have had magic exist for thousands of years therefore society would have constantly adapted more and more to its use.Theres nothing realistic or good roleplaying about peasents fearing magic,unless you think its realistic and sane to fear a toaster oven or computer.Which you clearly dont,since your useing a computer. And holy crap,you write worse than me....I hereby declare i shall try to write better now that i know how bad it is.
MikeTheAmazingMuskrat 08-13-05, 07:32 PM	Theres nothing realistic or good roleplaying about peasents fearing magic,unless you think its realistic and sane to fear a toaster oven or computer. How about a guy with a gun? Or a bomb? Or a flamethrower? -mike the amazing muskrat
mastergate 08-13-05, 08:46 PM	Then your system is for a realistic medevil economics which i can find easily.However D&D has super magic,and humans arent that dumb.They will realize magic is an advantege and abuse it.The period of omg magic is evil long would have passed in any D&D world since D&D worlds often have had magic exist for thousands of years therefore society would have constantly adapted more and more to its use.Theres nothing realistic or good roleplaying about peasents fearing magic,unless you think its realistic and sane to fear a toaster oven or computer.Which you clearly dont,since your useing a computer. And holy crap,you write worse than me....I hereby declare i shall try to write better now that i know how bad it is. sorry i am french
mastergate 08-13-05, 08:48 PM	How about a guy with a gun? Or a bomb? Or a flamethrower? -mike the amazing muskrat LOL you are right hope that guy (Lina_Inverse) get it to much power bring no sociaty at all :P :devil: :schemes: :angel: :heehee balance is the key it much be keep at all cost :D Chaos bring the downfall of everything :mad: law might be good :confused:
mastergate 08-13-05, 08:58 PM	Then your system is for a realistic medevil economics which i can find easily.However D&D has super magic,and humans arent that dumb.They will realize magic is an advantege and abuse it.The period of omg magic is evil long would have passed in any D&D world since D&D worlds often have had magic exist for thousands of years therefore society would have constantly adapted more and more to its use.Theres nothing realistic or good roleplaying about peasents fearing magic,unless you think its realistic and sane to fear a toaster oven or computer.Which you clearly dont,since your useing a computer. And holy crap,you write worse than me....I hereby declare i shall try to write better now that i know how bad it is. you got to much to the extreme and no offence how old are you and how have you been playing dungeon anyway :) :D :confused:
mastergate 08-13-05, 10:42 PM	Cool, dUde. Post it. I'm interested. -mike the amazing muskrat you will get it next week on this board i have to write it on the computer.
Lina_Inverse 08-13-05, 11:36 PM	How about a guy with a gun? Or a bomb? Or a flamethrower? -mike the amazing muskrat point,but i was thinking more along the lines of will the average human to have the mages put the usefull economic spells to use.fireballs,dominates etc. would probably be outlawed,comebine this with spellcasting liceneses and the average human will feel safe even if hes not.
MikeTheAmazingMuskrat 08-14-05, 02:02 AM	point,but i was thinking more along the lines of will the average human to have the mages put the usefull economic spells to use.fireballs,dominates etc. would probably be outlawed,comebine this with spellcasting liceneses and the average human will feel safe even if hes not. Sure, possibly. To be honest, I really don't object to your premise. However, I do not think that it is the ONLY way in which a society (and an economy) could be affected by magic. There could be spellcasting licenses, certainly... or there could be a feudal magocracy, with fiefdoms ruled by powerful warring casters, where justice and fairness are at the sole discretion of the Witch Queen and her barons. There's an awful lot of wiggle room, dUde. Also, I think technology is very societal; if you want to build a tank, you need someone to draw up the plans, someone to mine the metal, someone to put the damn thing together, and someone to drive it. THEN, you can go off and blow up some villages. It takes a lot to get that weapon going, and there are a lot of places where someone(s) could step in and say, "I don't like how this will be used," or at least there is that illusion of control. With magic, though, all of the power is in the hands of the individual. It just takes one angry (p-ed off is censored???) druid to Firestorm an entire town. I think when that sort of power can be wielded by just one soul, then fear will become a much stronger factor. What do you think? Wow. I seem to have rambled quite off topic. Regardless, I'm all for new ideas, and look forward to checking out this new economic system. -mike the amazing muskrat
Lhuhikwdwoo 08-14-05, 01:34 PM	question.do you have any understanding of the human mind? how many cultures outlaw technology irl? now how many cultures will outlaw magic,a similiar percentage.humans will treat magic like technology or its bad roleplaying.because were humans,its who we are we exploit our advanteges.and if you can wiggle your fingers to instantly do something well we would wiggle alot of fingers. you wanted a D&D economy therefore there is no outlawing magic,because humans would never do it if we had it irl. religions have in a few cases tried very hard to do so, with only "this is what is right, not that evil new tech" if you add in that in many cases, religions in fantasy can meet and some times beat what arcane has to offer, outlawing of the arcane becomes not unfeasible, just hurts the military-industrial complex a little
Lina_Inverse 08-14-05, 11:22 PM	Sure, possibly. To be honest, I really don't object to your premise. However, I do not think that it is the ONLY way in which a society (and an economy) could be affected by magic. There could be spellcasting licenses, certainly... or there could be a feudal magocracy, with fiefdoms ruled by powerful warring casters, where justice and fairness are at the sole discretion of the Witch Queen and her barons. There's an awful lot of wiggle room, dUde. True theres alot of wiggle room.But the super magic must be taken into consideration some how.Feudal mage lords who horde the magic is a far greater possibility than magic being outlawed and it staying that way.Because the mage lords would have the power to back it up whereas the no magic peasents would not.Even fighter types are absolutely reliant on magic to compete in D&D. Also, I think technology is very societal; if you want to build a tank, you need someone to draw up the plans, someone to mine the metal, someone to put the damn thing together, and someone to drive it. THEN, you can go off and blow up some villages. It takes a lot to get that weapon going, and there are a lot of places where someone(s) could step in and say, "I don't like how this will be used," or at least there is that illusion of control. With magic, though, all of the power is in the hands of the individual. It just takes one angry (p-ed off is censored???) druid to Firestorm an entire town. I think when that sort of power can be wielded by just one soul, then fear will become a much stronger factor. What do you think? The power problem exists in charecters all high level charecters.How do you control mages without someone who could basiclly do the same things anyways? The illiusion of control is importent,you are right about that.However licenses and such can help keep it up.Clerical mage hunters who hunt rogue high levels can make them feel even safer,because clerics CANT be corrupt in D&D. Wow. I seem to have rambled quite off topic. Regardless, I'm all for new ideas, and look forward to checking out this new economic system. -mike the amazing muskrat i dont find a use in an economic system that ignores magic.because i can check history for the basis of that. religions have in a few cases tried very hard to do so, with only "this is what is right, not that evil new tech" if you add in that in many cases, religions in fantasy can meet and some times beat what arcane has to offer, outlawing of the arcane becomes not unfeasible, just hurts the military-industrial complex a little And the heavy arcane contry next door begins to outproduce and out millitary the low arcane one.Either the heavy arcanes will conquer there neighbor or the neighbor will get scared and try to premptive attack. Divine magic,is though the MOST obvious addition to any country because Lawful clerics are inherently trustable and cant become corrupt without loseing there cleric powers.
mastergate 08-15-05, 12:25 AM	sorry but i think that you miss outderstood some thing my system does take in account magic user but in a diffirent piont of view that yours and there is an economic that flow even whit super magic example Thay. And bye the way Thay an super magic did not conquer all of the rest of faerun even if then are super magic . And again Thay is now because of magic an important element in the economic system of forget so as you see there is an economic system after all even whit or wihout magic.
anarco_rata 08-15-05, 10:49 AM	I agree with Lina_inverse, and not just because her(his?) name is based on one of the finest anime series, just because she's right. However, i think you're taking it a little extreme. Most peasants won't be able to study magic, be it because no skills whatsoever (poor INT) or because schooling cost money wich they don't have. Also, you're thinking about a very high magic world, where wizards spam like rats on a sewer, wich is not right in most of the ocassions. ANd i think a wizard is more concerned about exploring the obscure arcane arts and mysteries of the planes of existence that in growing plants for selling them. Besides, there's a limit in his capacity, that's why peasants provide food for everyone. Maybe a wizard could feed his army, servants or whatever with magic, but he's not going to spend a wholle day creating food for the people, after all, crafting powerfull magicall items is a lot more fun and a lot more profittable. Another thing: you're french, im from venezuela (bet you guys can even pronounce that ^^) and still i have a decent ortografy, you should try to improve that because reading things like LOL you are right hope that guy (Lina_Inverse) get it to much power bring no sociaty at all balance is the key it much be keep at all cost Chaos bring the downfall of everything law might be good its really, really anoying. Is not even the ortografy man, is the lack of any sense in what you say, i think you're translating everything literally from french and that's why sounds so weird. O! another thing, people don't fear technology, people fear what other people can do whit it. It do not fear a gun sitting on a desk, i fear a man with a gun angry at me because i eat his ice cream... also, peasants and the like should fear magic only if it's not common where they live, just because people fear what they can't understand (actually, i cant understand much of what mastergate, so his writting scares me ^^)
mastergate 08-15-05, 05:54 PM	I agree with Lina_inverse, and not just because her(his?) name is based on one of the finest anime series, just because she's right. However, i think you're taking it a little extreme. Most peasants won't be able to study magic, be it because no skills whatsoever (poor INT) or because schooling cost money wich they don't have. Sorry, but it is Lina_inverse, that like high magic not me. I am for medium and low magic world. Also, you're thinking about a very high magic world, where wizards spam like rats on a sewer, wich is not right in most of the ocassions. Honestly in don't like high magic world but that was only an example. ANd i think a wizard is more concerned about exploring the obscure arcane arts and mysteries of the planes of existence that in growing plants for selling them. Besides, there's a limit in his capacity, that's why peasants provide food for everyone. Maybe a wizard could feed his army, servants or whatever with magic, but he's not going to spend a wholle day creating food for the people, after all, crafting powerfull magicall items is a lot more fun and a lot more profittable. That right. Another thing: you're french, im from venezuela (bet you guys can even pronounce that ^^) and still i have a decent ortografy, you should try to improve that because reading things like its really, really anoying. Is not even the ortografy man, is the lack of any sense in what you say, i think you're translating everything literally from french and that's why sounds so weird. Sorry for my english then, but tere nothing to do about it . O! another thing, people don't fear technology, people fear what other people can do whit it. It do not fear a gun sitting on a desk, i fear a man with a gun angry at me because i eat his ice cream... also, peasants and the like should fear magic only if it's not common where they live, just because people fear what they can't understand (actually, i cant understand much of what mastergate, so his writting scares me ^^) I know that but then again those were only example of world that do not have high magic
anarco_rata 08-15-05, 07:43 PM	hehe, you got it all wrong, when i said thos things about the high magic i was refering to Lina, i know you where thinking about a low magic campaign ^^
mastergate 08-15-05, 08:34 PM	hehe, you got it all wrong, when i said thos things about the high magic i was refering to Lina, i know you where thinking about a low magic campaign ^^ Ok sorry. Thanks
Art_Tillary 08-16-05, 08:42 AM	question.do you have any understanding of the human mind? how many cultures outlaw technology irl? now how many cultures will outlaw magic,a similiar percentage.humans will treat magic like technology or its bad roleplaying.because were humans,its who we are we exploit our advanteges.and if you can wiggle your fingers to instantly do something well we would wiggle alot of fingers. you wanted a D&D economy therefore there is no outlawing magic,because humans would never do it if we had it irl. Some countries have tried to outlaw technology. Board rules I think forbid me from mention names. Suffice to say that they have failing economies if they have an economy. Thus your point stands. I have to agree that mages Will use their spells or magic items to make money. The questions are wether the rest of society fails to get any spin off or trickle down; and how many spell casters there are in the overall population. AT