Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Qsus 12-18-06, 10:34 PM	One night my friends and I were discussing the Spell Slot System vs. the Mana System. We discussed the Pros & Cons and created our own system.We did not care for the power point system because we feel it is rather complicated. Our system works like so: Spell Lvl......Mana points.....Spells per Lvl 0......................1.........x...... .... 1......................2.........x...... .... 2......................3.........x...... .... 3......................4.........x...... .... 4......................5.........x...... .... 5......................6.........x...... .... 6......................7.........x...... .... 7......................8.........x...... .... 8......................9.........x...... .... 9.....................10........x....... ... A 0 lvl spell grants you 1 mana point, multiply it by your 0 lvl spells per day and add it to your mana pool. Do the same for the rest of you spell lvls but remember your modifier granted by your int, wis, or chr, which ever applies. Furthermore, for domain spells, make a domain mana pool. Some of the pro's for this we noted were: It eliminates the unused lower level spells that just sit there with out a function. It provides more options and versitility. Cons: It makes the game easier, you pick your spells per a lvl just as before, but not the number of times you can cast it. Essentialy, a cleric can spontaneous cast any spell he has prepared, same for a wizard. which brings me to my next point. It blurs the line of wizard and Sorcerer. They are so similar we removed the sorcere, changed the name to mage. The "Mage" can get real overpowered real quick. Didn't like him casting scorching ray all the time? well now he doesnt burn all his slots for it. he can be more versitle while being more devistating then ever by using the lowerer lvl mana. (we have not tested this system on a mage yet.) Do you allow phantasmal Killer? Don't at all, and if you do, not with the mana system. we were doing a closed beta with a cleric, and it has been working well. We want to open it up so others can try it and give us feed back. I have an Spreadsheet of the mana system but i couldnt figure out how to upload it onto the site (assuming that is possible). Need Clarification? Have Questions? Please ask. All comments are welcome.
Tempest Stormwind 12-18-06, 10:38 PM	Power point system more complicated? Dude, it's exactly the same as the magic system, but with the single rule that "you can't spend more power points on any one power than your manifester level". That's it. I think it says a lot that I can explain the psionics system to a total newbie in about ten minutes, start to finish, no questions asked, while it takes me forty minutes to do the same thing with the basic magic system, as I'm constantly inundated with questions and complaints. Just play a psion. [Edit: If you aren't prepared to change the SPELLS as well to account for this fundamental system change, it remains broken. An example of the amount of work that goes into this is available here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=650223).]
invaladuser 12-18-06, 10:41 PM	Im slightly confused by the math for the mana points. Im not sure if its do to being really tired or something else. So how does it work. Oh and any spellcaster can cast spontaneously.
Stuntman 12-18-06, 11:46 PM	I wonder how you handle game balance in your system. If you give more flexibility in casting spells to your players, you effectively make the spell casters more powerful. A level 5 wizard in the old system with 16 Int can cast only 2 Fireballs per day. If you add the flexibility to cast more than 2 Fireballs at the expense of some lower level spells, you potentially make the character more powerful than before. If you look at the psionics system, and compare it to the standard spell system, you find that the psionics are balanced by having fewer power points. If you convert the number of spells a wizard is able to cast into equivalent power points, you will find that the number of power points a psion of the same level has will be lower.
Manyfist 12-18-06, 11:51 PM	BTW who is "we"? I mean, Tempest summed up the entire Psionics PP system in one sentence. This takes an entire post and is still confusing.
Rraahk 12-19-06, 03:04 AM	I'm part of the "we." It's basically our little DND group of 5 that's been trying it out. To better explain the system: Each spell costs a number of points equal to 1+<spell level>. A caster is granted a number of mana points that they would be allowed to spend in that day. In other words, if a character has 4 level 2 spells per day and 4 level 1 spells and 5 level 0 spells, that character receives 25 mana points per day [ ((2+1)x4) + ((1+1)x4) + (0+1)x5) = 25 ]. Yes, this allows a little too much freedom for the casters as we've discovered. We are searching for a system that allows more flexibility for the caster, less downtime (resting) for the party, and is closer in similarity to, say a video game. For the years we've played DND, we've never cared for the seemingly overly restricted casters. Our thoughts were that the casters would cast their few spells and then they'd be out of the fight. Meanwhile, the ranger is plucking 3 arrows a round for 1d8+3 damage at a +15 Attack. We feel there's a lack of balance in which the casters are less effective than a basic melee player (particularly fighters, rangers and monks). Now, it could be that we've just been looking at the casters in the wrong light, or have been overwhelmed by their complexity. However, we felt that we'd bring this alternate system to the boards in hope for some constructive criticism and edit and change around the system to not only better fit our ideals but also to be balanced within the game. I hope that clarified some of the confusion in our initial presentation and please feel free to continue asking questions if you are still confused in some way. [Edit] For whatever reason, the group has always shunned the psions, personally I've been planning on playing several psionic characters in the next few campaigns to learn more about psionics. This system was developed approximately 2 years ago before we had the psionic handbook.
Tempest Stormwind 12-19-06, 10:26 AM	I'm part of the "we." It's basically our little DND group of 5 that's been trying it out. To better explain the system: Each spell costs a number of points equal to 1+<spell level>. A caster is granted a number of mana points that they would be allowed to spend in that day. In other words, if a character has 4 level 2 spells per day and 4 level 1 spells and 5 level 0 spells, that character receives 25 mana points per day [ ((2+1)x4) + ((1+1)x4) + (0+1)x5) = 25 ]....Actually. I played once in a group with exactly this same houserule. My cleric, already strong, was even stronger than he would have been, with *always* the right spell for the situation, and all of them fully scaled by level. Besides, I also picked up Persistent Spell. Think about that for a minute.For the years we've played DND, we've never cared for the seemingly overly restricted casters. Our thoughts were that the casters would cast their few spells and then they'd be out of the fight. Meanwhile, the ranger is plucking 3 arrows a round for 1d8+3 damage at a +15 Attack. We feel there's a lack of balance in which the casters are less effective than a basic melee player (particularly fighters, rangers and monks). Now, it could be that we've just been looking at the casters in the wrong light, or have been overwhelmed by their complexity. However, we felt that we'd bring this alternate system to the boards in hope for some constructive criticism and edit and change around the system to not only better fit our ideals but also to be balanced within the game.You've been overwhelmed by their complexity. There's a reason why an intelligently-played spellcaster is so powerful that everyone else typically just becomes a meatshield.[Edit] For whatever reason, the group has always shunned the psions, personally I've been planning on playing several psionic characters in the next few campaigns to learn more about psionics. This system was developed approximately 2 years ago before we had the psionic handbook.Expanded Psionics Handbook, I hope... See the FAQ and the New DM/Player's Guide to Psionics, both in my sig. That should help.
Rraahk 12-19-06, 10:37 AM	Expanded Psionics Handbook, I hope... Of course! :P
Rraahk 12-19-06, 10:38 AM	Also, Tempest, with your experience with the system was there any way that you feel it could be modified or improved upon?
Tempest Stormwind 12-19-06, 01:49 PM	Also, Tempest, with your experience with the system was there any way that you feel it could be modified or improved upon?The group that used the MP had a slight difference. Namely, after I totally busted it wide open with my cleric, they asked me to leave rather than either switch back to the existing magic system (which limits the mages) or alter all of the spells to account for it. Personally? I'd use Xeviat's system, which I linked above. Or, even better, just play a psion. If you *insist* on keeping your system, do the following (this is quick and dirty): 1) Change to the same costs as psionic power points. Calculate total mana points accordingly. 2) Either adjust every single spell to NOT scale automatically but rather require more points, OR cut your spell points by at least 1/3 to account for the added flexibility. 3) Apply an MP cap: Cannot spend more mana points than your caster level. (Prevents, for instance, a cleric from Persisting Divine Power the instant he learns it.) Note that at this point, you get what you'd effectively get with psionics or Xeviat's system.
aotrscommander 12-19-06, 07:27 PM	I also was utterly underwhelmed by the Spell Point system and have been designing with another one, not dissimilar to yours, but usuing Mana = Spell level (and granting level+spell stat cantrips on top). Some time ago, I posted a thread about it, and after the feedback, I went back and decided to go with Spell level/2 (round up), which doesn't reduce the amount of low-level caster much, but does significantly reduce the amount of higher level spells (which some folk pointed out was a major issue). I am also looking at adding a system whereby the caster doesn't quite have all their spells known available to cast at their whim; it might require some reading from a spell book to cast a spell you haven't used for a while (imagine it like engineering formulae; you remember the common ones, but half the time, you have to go and look it up in your Book of Formuale if you've not done it for a while.) I've not play-tested it yet (as we haven't mved the correct campaign world), but if you are interested, I could post some bits up. (I'm not using psionics for magic, by the by, because, then what would I use for psionics? And I do want the two to stay reasonably differentiated! 'Cos it's more fun.)
Qsus 12-19-06, 11:55 PM	Originaly we did intened to use the power point system, but we noted one thing. Not all Powers of the same Power Level cost the same amount of points. So rather than use an overly complicated method of power points (and alot point cost to individual spells), we simplified it by making your mana equal to 1+spell level * spells per day. The reason we did not do the mana = Spell level system was due to the cantrips. My original suggestion was make cantrips free (since they are borderline useless) and have it one for one, but for balance sake we did not. We have realized that yes, a mage could cast at 8th lvl could cast around 10 lvl 4 spells in a day. And I thank Temptest Stormwind for the suggestion of reducing spell points for the new found variety of spells.
Tempest Stormwind 12-20-06, 12:24 AM	Originaly we did intened to use the power point system, but we noted one thing. Not all Powers of the same Power Level cost the same amount of points. Poppycock. Point to one. So rather than use an overly complicated method of power points (and alot point cost to individual spells), we simplified it by making your mana equal to 1+spell level * spells per day.Bollocks. The power pont costs are ALWAYS: 1st-1 2nd-3 3rd-5 4th-7 5th-9 6th-11 7th-13 8th-15 9th-17 Identical to the caster level a wizard with access to that level would be. Or, 1, +2 per level. How is that complicated? Augmentation is beyond that point and is akin to the scaling from caster level. There are even some negative augments out there (officially, only for Dimension Door, but UTP uses them in a few places). Really, the only reason power 'level' exists is to set DCs and put level limits into effect. I mean, the ardent (in Complete Psionic) doesn't even care what level a power is -- if he can pay for it, he can manifest it.The reason we did not do the mana = Spell level system was due to the cantrips. My original suggestion was make cantrips free (since they are borderline useless) and have it one for one, but for balance sake we did not.You could use the 3.0 psionics trick here (one of the few things about that system I liked): 3+Caster level in free cantrips per day. If you want more than that, they're 1 spell point apiece.We have realized that yes, a mage could cast at 8th lvl could cast around 10 lvl 4 spells in a day. And I thank Temptest Stormwind for the suggestion of reducing spell points for the new found variety of spells.Comes from knowing psionics very, very well. And not leaping to conclusions like you seemed to with your earlier 'observations'.