Animating Warforged [Archive] - Wizards Community

Animating Warforged [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Toombs79
01-04-08, 10:10 AM Can a Warforged be animated via the Animate Dead spell? I ran into this issue the other day when we took one out pretty cleanly and I wanted to animate it as a zombie warforged.

We went into the discussion of mechanics and all that, and a warforged is described as a living construct. The key word being Living as opposed to other constructs like.... well... others

Although I can see the argument of a Warforged being comprised of meicanical parts, my argument is that it doesn't matter what the parts are since the way Animate Dead works is it imbunes a creature with negative energy which animates its origional working parts. So the gears and such would be animated with the negative energy.

I hope someone can direct me to some errata or popular opinion on this.
naturax
01-04-08, 10:59 AM Can a Warforged be animated via the Animate Dead spell? I ran into this issue the other day when we took one out pretty cleanly and I wanted to animate it as a zombie warforged.

We went into the discussion of mechanics and all that, and a warforged is described as a living construct. The key word being Living as opposed to other constructs like.... well... others

Although I can see the argument of a Warforged being comprised of meicanical parts, my argument is that it doesn't matter what the parts are since the way Animate Dead works is it imbunes a creature with negative energy which animates its origional working parts. So the gears and such would be animated with the negative energy.

I hope someone can direct me to some errata or popular opinion on this.

Unless specifically stated otherwise, warforged are exactly like a typical humanoid.
ArcTan
01-04-08, 03:35 PM The flavor for Warforged clearly states that there is no known form of Warforged Undead. This is the main reason the Church of the Silver Flame and the clergy of the Sovereign Host generally believe Warforged are not "truly" alive, along with the fact that resurrected Warforged have no memory of the afterlife. Flavorwise, Warforged Undead shouldn't exist, or if they do exist, should be something terrifying and new, not something any two-bit necromancer could whip up. (If it *were* possible to make Warforged Zombies, Karrnath would have hundreds of them by now.)

I care a hell of a lot less about the RAW-head geekery, but the animate dead description says it only works on creatures with a "skeletal system".

Assuming we're using that to mean "skeletal system like a human's" and not as a general term (in which case EVERYTHING THAT EXISTS would therefore have a skeletal system), Warforged don't qualify.
ArcTan
01-04-08, 03:38 PM Unless specifically stated otherwise, warforged are exactly like a typical humanoid.

The boards have evolved this argument as a kneejerk defense against "Warforged are robots, and you're crazy anime-heads!", but it's really not true -- or, at least, not the best rule of thumb.

Warforged *aren't* typical humanoids. They're not even humanoids. They're living constructs. Emphasizing the differences between Warforged and Humans is what makes the setting interesting. Making Warforged just a kind of Human with metal on top is stupid, and boring. (Just as all the people clamoring to make Changeling shapeshifting as unimportant as possible really annoy me.)

So because it doesn't say Warforged don't have a pancreas, I assume that they do? Because it doesn't say Warforged can't mate with humans and have Half-Warforged children, I assume that they can? Because it doesn't say Warforged flesh isn't edible by carnivorous predators, I assume that it is?

What that "rule" really means is that you can't make up a superpower for Warforged completely out of thin air and treat it as true. A lot of newbies do this, thinking "Warforged are fireproof!" or "Warforged can be disassembled for transport!"

However, going all the way in the other direction and saying stupid things like "Warforged *must* have lips and be able to play a trombone, because it doesn't say they can't!" makes just as much of a hash out of things.
naturax
01-04-08, 03:58 PM The boards have evolved this argument as a kneejerk defense against "Warforged are robots, and you're crazy anime-heads!", but it's really not true -- or, at least, not the best rule of thumb.

Warforged *aren't* typical humanoids. They're not even humanoids. They're living constructs. Emphasizing the differences between Warforged and Humans is what makes the setting interesting. Making Warforged just a kind of Human with metal on top is stupid, and boring. (Just as all the people clamoring to make Changeling shapeshifting as unimportant as possible really annoy me.)

So because it doesn't say Warforged don't have a pancreas, I assume that they do? Because it doesn't say Warforged can't mate with humans and have Half-Warforged children, I assume that they can? Because it doesn't say Warforged flesh isn't edible by carnivorous predators, I assume that it is?

What that "rule" really means is that you can't make up a superpower for Warforged completely out of thin air and treat it as true. A lot of newbies do this, thinking "Warforged are fireproof!" or "Warforged can be disassembled for transport!"

However, going all the way in the other direction and saying stupid things like "Warforged *must* have lips and be able to play a trombone, because it doesn't say they can't!" makes just as much of a hash out of things.

I was just thinking from a rules perspective when wondering about spells and stuff, but on a roleplay level you're absolutely correct.
Gurv
01-04-08, 06:19 PM How do the rules define 'object'?

Is a slain creature an object?

In our games, we've always treated dead creatures as objects. It makes sense, because they have to be something. It happens to make thing easier on PCs as well, since it allows slain creatures to be moved easier (teleport, shrink item, etc.)

I see no issue with using animate object to animate a dead human corpse. It isn't especially energy efficient to use a 6th level spell to create short-lived CR 2 creatures. The only advantage is confusing your enemies, who think they're dealing with necromantic undead.

Thusly, I would obviously allow animating warforged corpses.
Aspeon
01-04-08, 09:44 PM In the faiths of eberron under the Godforged it says warforged cannot become undead but can be resurrected.
Zadmar
01-05-08, 02:23 PM The flavor for Warforged clearly states that there is no known form of Warforged Undead.

You mean apart from the Woeforged (FoW page 85)?
ArcTan
01-07-08, 03:32 AM Clever. Did you read the whole post?

Flavorwise, Warforged Undead shouldn't exist, or if they do exist, should be something terrifying and new, not something any two-bit necromancer could whip up.
Zadmar
01-07-08, 05:15 PM Clever. Did you read the whole post?

Yes, but I didn't disagree with the rest of your post. Well, except for the "skeletal system like a human's" point, but I wasn't in the mood to start nitpicking about owlbear skeletons and umber hulk zombies.

I was really just pointing out that there clearly is at least one known form of Warforged undead, going by flavour text in the official Eberron supplements.
Lazaro
01-08-08, 04:25 AM On an interesting note of Undead Warforged. A warforged can become Favored Spawn of Kyuss(Dragon #336). As the only requirements are Living and Corporeal.
Just_some_Evil_Wizard
01-08-08, 04:56 PM Animate Object and Permanency can create something apparently similiar to undead warforged, if it's of any help.
ArcTan
01-08-08, 08:52 PM Well... an Animated Warforged Corpse is a Construct, not an Undead, is almost useless in a fight since it will never have more than 2 HD, and "dies" as soon as someone casts dispel magic on it.

It might be good for a few specific uses. Not likely to be generally useful.
troysandlin
01-08-08, 11:21 PM This might be a stupid question but why would you want to try and animate them? If you have a "dead" warforged; can't you just repair them and they just come back? I asked once before about that. If you knock a warforged below zero they shut down. If they're below -10 maybe there needs to be some kind of massive repair spell to bring them back up a little so they can be fixed.
Or I could be just missing the point.
Just_some_Evil_Wizard
01-09-08, 04:17 AM At -10 or lower, a warforged is dead and needs a Raise, Resurrection or similar spell.

Also, creating undead usually has another intention than bringing back the dead to life. It's something about loyal minions, I suppose.
troysandlin
01-09-08, 03:23 PM Like I said, just missing the point. =)
Just_some_Evil_Wizard
01-09-08, 05:24 PM Well... an Animated Warforged Corpse is a Construct, not an Undead, is almost useless in a fight since it will never have more than 2 HD, and "dies" as soon as someone casts dispel magic on it.

It might be good for a few specific uses. Not likely to be generally useful.

It's about as useful as a warforged zombie, which also has 2 HD. Of course, Dispel Magic helps to destroy it, but hey, Fireball or a longsowrd do so anyway. But it's immune to turning/rebuking, holy water, has no control limit...
A Warforged Titan might be of more use for the high level wizard/priest combo.

The XP cost, higher level of spells and all that are quite the deterrant, but if there is some special reason to re-animate warforged (**** of the Lord of Blades, terrify the neighborhood or whatever), it can be done.
Toombs79
01-11-08, 01:36 PM The issue actually arises from use of the "Fell Aniamte" metamagic feat. The feat allows you to raise slain creatures with a particular spell as zombies as if raised under animate dead.

Regarding the whole resurrection vs. aniamte deal, it was a situation where the party were in a fight and one of the enemies was a Warforged. I wanted to kill the disabled warforged with a felled Chill of the Grave (lvl 1, 1d10 dmg) so it would animate as a zombie (under my control).

Looking in Liber Mortis, there are more than just the stnadard 2hd Human zombies. In fact, they provide stats for large, huge, gargantuan, colossus, monstrous, riddiculously big, cthulhu zombies as well.

Part of hte rub was that the warforged had an adamantanium body as well. Zombies with ham fists and DR? Love it.

And yes, I like mindless undead as servants. I use a few zombie Kobolds as porters currently.
ArcTan
01-14-08, 07:34 PM The issue actually arises from use of the "Fell Aniamte" metamagic feat. The feat allows you to raise slain creatures with a particular spell as zombies as if raised under animate dead.

Only works if the creature is normally subject to animate dead, which Warforged aren't (they don't have "skeletal systems").
vegetalss4
01-16-08, 04:27 PM Assuming we're using that to mean "skeletal system like a human's" and not as a general term (in which case EVERYTHING THAT EXISTS would therefore have a skeletal system), Warforged don't qualify.

exept of course all Ooze's, Elemental's, plants some abberations (maybe outsiders, and some construct's);)
ArcTan
01-18-08, 07:11 PM That was my point. Plants *do* have a skeletal system, in the strict, technical biological sense. So do earthworms, and squid, and all the other nasty squishy things that serve as the basis for Aberrations. Oozes are arguable, but if an Ooze *does* have a shape that it retains after being deformed (like a Gelatinous Cube) then yes, the proteinous mass that keeps it in shape is a "skeletal system".

The technical definition of "skeletal system" is very broad, and just means whatever system lets a living thing keep its shape. If a living thing has a shape, it has a "skeletal system".

There are other definitions of skeletal system that are more specific as to *how* the thing keeps its shape, yes. Under those circumstances an earthworm's or plant's skeletal system wouldn't qualify. Neither would the metal plates and stone joints and thick wooden body of a Warforged.
Kreistor2
01-18-08, 09:11 PM Personally, I don't let Animate work on Warforged. I view them as having an Alchemical physiology, rather than a biological one, which to me makes them invalid for the magics required. It's an arbitrary decision. I view the "Living" part of "Living Construct" as meaning mentally alive only, not biologically alive.
vegetalss4
01-19-08, 11:03 AM There are other definitions of skeletal system that are more specific as to *how* the thing keeps its shape, yes. Under those circumstances an earthworm's or plant's skeletal system wouldn't qualify. Neither would the metal plates and stone joints and thick wooden body of a Warforged.

good then we agree
in the second difination
i am just ageinst disallowing skeletton wolves or beateels(i know i spelled the wrong, will anyone please tell me how it is spelled)
nights_the_necromancer
01-29-08, 03:09 PM to my knowledge the woeforge are more a result of the weirdness of the mournland. seeings as how everything is twisted like a weired Japaneses horror in that place the woeforged are half dead warforged who cant die because of the mournland.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Toombs79 01-04-08, 10:10 AM	Can a Warforged be animated via the Animate Dead spell? I ran into this issue the other day when we took one out pretty cleanly and I wanted to animate it as a zombie warforged. We went into the discussion of mechanics and all that, and a warforged is described as a living construct. The key word being Living as opposed to other constructs like.... well... others Although I can see the argument of a Warforged being comprised of meicanical parts, my argument is that it doesn't matter what the parts are since the way Animate Dead works is it imbunes a creature with negative energy which animates its origional working parts. So the gears and such would be animated with the negative energy. I hope someone can direct me to some errata or popular opinion on this.
naturax 01-04-08, 10:59 AM	Can a Warforged be animated via the Animate Dead spell? I ran into this issue the other day when we took one out pretty cleanly and I wanted to animate it as a zombie warforged. We went into the discussion of mechanics and all that, and a warforged is described as a living construct. The key word being Living as opposed to other constructs like.... well... others Although I can see the argument of a Warforged being comprised of meicanical parts, my argument is that it doesn't matter what the parts are since the way Animate Dead works is it imbunes a creature with negative energy which animates its origional working parts. So the gears and such would be animated with the negative energy. I hope someone can direct me to some errata or popular opinion on this. Unless specifically stated otherwise, warforged are exactly like a typical humanoid.
ArcTan 01-04-08, 03:35 PM	The flavor for Warforged clearly states that there is no known form of Warforged Undead. This is the main reason the Church of the Silver Flame and the clergy of the Sovereign Host generally believe Warforged are not "truly" alive, along with the fact that resurrected Warforged have no memory of the afterlife. Flavorwise, Warforged Undead shouldn't exist, or if they do exist, should be something terrifying and new, not something any two-bit necromancer could whip up. (If it were possible to make Warforged Zombies, Karrnath would have hundreds of them by now.) I care a hell of a lot less about the RAW-head geekery, but the animate dead description says it only works on creatures with a "skeletal system". Assuming we're using that to mean "skeletal system like a human's" and not as a general term (in which case EVERYTHING THAT EXISTS would therefore have a skeletal system), Warforged don't qualify.
ArcTan 01-04-08, 03:38 PM	Unless specifically stated otherwise, warforged are exactly like a typical humanoid. The boards have evolved this argument as a kneejerk defense against "Warforged are robots, and you're crazy anime-heads!", but it's really not true -- or, at least, not the best rule of thumb. Warforged aren't typical humanoids. They're not even humanoids. They're living constructs. Emphasizing the differences between Warforged and Humans is what makes the setting interesting. Making Warforged just a kind of Human with metal on top is stupid, and boring. (Just as all the people clamoring to make Changeling shapeshifting as unimportant as possible really annoy me.) So because it doesn't say Warforged don't have a pancreas, I assume that they do? Because it doesn't say Warforged can't mate with humans and have Half-Warforged children, I assume that they can? Because it doesn't say Warforged flesh isn't edible by carnivorous predators, I assume that it is? What that "rule" really means is that you can't make up a superpower for Warforged completely out of thin air and treat it as true. A lot of newbies do this, thinking "Warforged are fireproof!" or "Warforged can be disassembled for transport!" However, going all the way in the other direction and saying stupid things like "Warforged must have lips and be able to play a trombone, because it doesn't say they can't!" makes just as much of a hash out of things.
naturax 01-04-08, 03:58 PM	The boards have evolved this argument as a kneejerk defense against "Warforged are robots, and you're crazy anime-heads!", but it's really not true -- or, at least, not the best rule of thumb. Warforged aren't typical humanoids. They're not even humanoids. They're living constructs. Emphasizing the differences between Warforged and Humans is what makes the setting interesting. Making Warforged just a kind of Human with metal on top is stupid, and boring. (Just as all the people clamoring to make Changeling shapeshifting as unimportant as possible really annoy me.) So because it doesn't say Warforged don't have a pancreas, I assume that they do? Because it doesn't say Warforged can't mate with humans and have Half-Warforged children, I assume that they can? Because it doesn't say Warforged flesh isn't edible by carnivorous predators, I assume that it is? What that "rule" really means is that you can't make up a superpower for Warforged completely out of thin air and treat it as true. A lot of newbies do this, thinking "Warforged are fireproof!" or "Warforged can be disassembled for transport!" However, going all the way in the other direction and saying stupid things like "Warforged must have lips and be able to play a trombone, because it doesn't say they can't!" makes just as much of a hash out of things. I was just thinking from a rules perspective when wondering about spells and stuff, but on a roleplay level you're absolutely correct.
Gurv 01-04-08, 06:19 PM	How do the rules define 'object'? Is a slain creature an object? In our games, we've always treated dead creatures as objects. It makes sense, because they have to be something. It happens to make thing easier on PCs as well, since it allows slain creatures to be moved easier (teleport, shrink item, etc.) I see no issue with using animate object to animate a dead human corpse. It isn't especially energy efficient to use a 6th level spell to create short-lived CR 2 creatures. The only advantage is confusing your enemies, who think they're dealing with necromantic undead. Thusly, I would obviously allow animating warforged corpses.
Aspeon 01-04-08, 09:44 PM	In the faiths of eberron under the Godforged it says warforged cannot become undead but can be resurrected.
Zadmar 01-05-08, 02:23 PM	The flavor for Warforged clearly states that there is no known form of Warforged Undead. You mean apart from the Woeforged (FoW page 85)?
ArcTan 01-07-08, 03:32 AM	Clever. Did you read the whole post? Flavorwise, Warforged Undead shouldn't exist, or if they do exist, should be something terrifying and new, not something any two-bit necromancer could whip up.
Zadmar 01-07-08, 05:15 PM	Clever. Did you read the whole post? Yes, but I didn't disagree with the rest of your post. Well, except for the "skeletal system like a human's" point, but I wasn't in the mood to start nitpicking about owlbear skeletons and umber hulk zombies. I was really just pointing out that there clearly is at least one known form of Warforged undead, going by flavour text in the official Eberron supplements.
Lazaro 01-08-08, 04:25 AM	On an interesting note of Undead Warforged. A warforged can become Favored Spawn of Kyuss(Dragon #336). As the only requirements are Living and Corporeal.
Just_some_Evil_Wizard 01-08-08, 04:56 PM	Animate Object and Permanency can create something apparently similiar to undead warforged, if it's of any help.
ArcTan 01-08-08, 08:52 PM	Well... an Animated Warforged Corpse is a Construct, not an Undead, is almost useless in a fight since it will never have more than 2 HD, and "dies" as soon as someone casts dispel magic on it. It might be good for a few specific uses. Not likely to be generally useful.
troysandlin 01-08-08, 11:21 PM	This might be a stupid question but why would you want to try and animate them? If you have a "dead" warforged; can't you just repair them and they just come back? I asked once before about that. If you knock a warforged below zero they shut down. If they're below -10 maybe there needs to be some kind of massive repair spell to bring them back up a little so they can be fixed. Or I could be just missing the point.
Just_some_Evil_Wizard 01-09-08, 04:17 AM	At -10 or lower, a warforged is dead and needs a Raise, Resurrection or similar spell. Also, creating undead usually has another intention than bringing back the dead to life. It's something about loyal minions, I suppose.
troysandlin 01-09-08, 03:23 PM	Like I said, just missing the point. =)
Just_some_Evil_Wizard 01-09-08, 05:24 PM	Well... an Animated Warforged Corpse is a Construct, not an Undead, is almost useless in a fight since it will never have more than 2 HD, and "dies" as soon as someone casts dispel magic on it. It might be good for a few specific uses. Not likely to be generally useful. It's about as useful as a warforged zombie, which also has 2 HD. Of course, Dispel Magic helps to destroy it, but hey, Fireball or a longsowrd do so anyway. But it's immune to turning/rebuking, holy water, has no control limit... A Warforged Titan might be of more use for the high level wizard/priest combo. The XP cost, higher level of spells and all that are quite the deterrant, but if there is some special reason to re-animate warforged (**** of the Lord of Blades, terrify the neighborhood or whatever), it can be done.
Toombs79 01-11-08, 01:36 PM	The issue actually arises from use of the "Fell Aniamte" metamagic feat. The feat allows you to raise slain creatures with a particular spell as zombies as if raised under animate dead. Regarding the whole resurrection vs. aniamte deal, it was a situation where the party were in a fight and one of the enemies was a Warforged. I wanted to kill the disabled warforged with a felled Chill of the Grave (lvl 1, 1d10 dmg) so it would animate as a zombie (under my control). Looking in Liber Mortis, there are more than just the stnadard 2hd Human zombies. In fact, they provide stats for large, huge, gargantuan, colossus, monstrous, riddiculously big, cthulhu zombies as well. Part of hte rub was that the warforged had an adamantanium body as well. Zombies with ham fists and DR? Love it. And yes, I like mindless undead as servants. I use a few zombie Kobolds as porters currently.
ArcTan 01-14-08, 07:34 PM	The issue actually arises from use of the "Fell Aniamte" metamagic feat. The feat allows you to raise slain creatures with a particular spell as zombies as if raised under animate dead. Only works if the creature is normally subject to animate dead, which Warforged aren't (they don't have "skeletal systems").
vegetalss4 01-16-08, 04:27 PM	Assuming we're using that to mean "skeletal system like a human's" and not as a general term (in which case EVERYTHING THAT EXISTS would therefore have a skeletal system), Warforged don't qualify. exept of course all Ooze's, Elemental's, plants some abberations (maybe outsiders, and some construct's);)
ArcTan 01-18-08, 07:11 PM	That was my point. Plants do have a skeletal system, in the strict, technical biological sense. So do earthworms, and squid, and all the other nasty squishy things that serve as the basis for Aberrations. Oozes are arguable, but if an Ooze does have a shape that it retains after being deformed (like a Gelatinous Cube) then yes, the proteinous mass that keeps it in shape is a "skeletal system". The technical definition of "skeletal system" is very broad, and just means whatever system lets a living thing keep its shape. If a living thing has a shape, it has a "skeletal system". There are other definitions of skeletal system that are more specific as to how the thing keeps its shape, yes. Under those circumstances an earthworm's or plant's skeletal system wouldn't qualify. Neither would the metal plates and stone joints and thick wooden body of a Warforged.
Kreistor2 01-18-08, 09:11 PM	Personally, I don't let Animate work on Warforged. I view them as having an Alchemical physiology, rather than a biological one, which to me makes them invalid for the magics required. It's an arbitrary decision. I view the "Living" part of "Living Construct" as meaning mentally alive only, not biologically alive.
vegetalss4 01-19-08, 11:03 AM	There are other definitions of skeletal system that are more specific as to how the thing keeps its shape, yes. Under those circumstances an earthworm's or plant's skeletal system wouldn't qualify. Neither would the metal plates and stone joints and thick wooden body of a Warforged. good then we agree in the second difination i am just ageinst disallowing skeletton wolves or beateels(i know i spelled the wrong, will anyone please tell me how it is spelled)
nights_the_necromancer 01-29-08, 03:09 PM	to my knowledge the woeforge are more a result of the weirdness of the mournland. seeings as how everything is twisted like a weired Japaneses horror in that place the woeforged are half dead warforged who cant die because of the mournland.