Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Werebat 03-23-07, 05:24 PM	OK, second in my installment of ideas to mend the broken Swiftwing... Here's a +1 LA template that can only be added to Shifters. It's called Camazotz, after the batlike South American monsters of the same name. The idea is that one family of shifters retained a bit more of their lycanthropic blood than others. Camazotz shifters grow leathery flaps from their arms when they shift, much like the wings of a dire bat. When shifting, they have a fly speed of 40 (Good). They can carry things in their hands while flying but can't use them while they are airborne. Additionally, they gain a +4 bonus to Dexterity while shifting, and count in all ways as if they had one more shifter feat than they actually do. What do you think? I figured that since the ability to fly is generally accepted as worth +1 LA, then the ability to fly with severe restrictions (only while shifting, and without being to use one's hands while airborne) should grant some extra bonuses if it is purchased with the same +1 LA cost. - Ron ^*^
rice830 03-24-07, 02:03 AM	~There is a Shifter type in Races of Eberron that gives you wings just like that, i dont have the book with me but you can look for it there.
Werebat 03-24-07, 12:47 PM	~There is a Shifter type in Races of Eberron that gives you wings just like that, i dont have the book with me but you can look for it there. Yeah, it's called "Swiftwing" and it's the most ironically named of the shifter traits. It gives you a flight speed of 20 (Average). *20*. Also, you can't use your hands while flying. It's a waste of a trait. I sort of understand why they did what they did with the trait... Longstrider gives a shifter +10 to ground speed, and if another trait gave a flight speed of 40 (like a dire bat) then no one would ever take Longstrider... But even if Swiftwing gave a flight speed of 30 (Average) and could be pumped to 40 (Good) with Swiftwing Elite, it still isn't much of a choice because you can't use your hands. - Ron ^*^
Belabras 03-24-07, 03:11 PM	Well, without hands you can still: make bite attacks, use psionic powers, cast spells without somatic components, bull rush, use a breath weapon (dragon shaman and dragonfire adept), flee, scout, use a tail slap attack (see Sauran Shifters from Dragon #328 or the feat from Races of the Dragon), shout out warnings, and so on. That said, I think it should be possible to make a case to your DM to allow Razorclaw to apply to feet instead of hands. Raptorians from Races of the Wild do it that way, and it comes with built in drawbacks, so I would think it should be ok.
Werebat 03-24-07, 03:14 PM	Well, without hands you can still: make bite attacks, use psionic powers, cast spells without somatic components, bull rush, use a breath weapon (dragon shaman and dragonfire adept), flee, scout, use a tail slap attack (see Sauran Shifters from Dragon #328 or the feat from Races of the Dragon), shout out warnings, and so on. That said, I think it should be possible to make a case to your DM to allow Razorclaw to apply to feet instead of hands. Raptorians from Races of the Wild do it that way, and it comes with built in drawbacks, so I would think it should be ok. Would *you* give up a shifter trait to get Fly 20 (Average)? - Ron ^*^
Belabras 03-24-07, 03:18 PM	On a Shifter Psion character or Dragon Shaman? In a heart beat.
Werebat 03-24-07, 03:30 PM	On a Shifter Psion character or Dragon Shaman? In a heart beat. That makes little sense since the psion can so easily spend a feat to get far superior flight, more than once per day. I'm unfamiliar with dragon shamans but I suspect they could find less costly means of flying when they really needed to, possibly through the use of wands. In any event it's pretty telling that you had to go so far beyond the core to find any examples. Fly 20 (Average) while shifting is a dud trait. How often does it appear in any competitive builds? - Ron ^*^
Belabras 03-24-07, 03:57 PM	Psion is core. Check the SRD. And the defining attribute of the Swiftwing trait is that it is available at level 1. No other mechanic for flight is accessible at that level outside of extremely money rich campaigns. Would I play a character with non-hand dependant range attacks and flight in a 1-6 lvl game? Probably not, because such a character would run roughshod all over the game and over shadow other plays. Flight at level 1 is very powerful. However, I agree that, through some kind of mechanic (be it the Bat line of Weretouched Master you've proposed or another feat) something should be available at level 6 to beef up what is at that point becoming a not very impressive ability.
Pinky's brain 03-24-07, 04:05 PM	You can only do it one time a day and not for very long.
Werebat 03-24-07, 06:31 PM	You can only do it one time a day and not for very long. Twice a day by level 3 if you build for it, but still. My first question stands unanswered: is the proposed template powerful enough? TOO powerful? PEACH! - Ron ^*^
Belabras 03-24-07, 07:53 PM	I can't really say, as I tend to shy away from templates as a general rule. It seems ok though.
Werebat 03-24-07, 11:40 PM	I can't really say, as I tend to shy away from templates as a general rule. It seems ok though. I think it fills a gap needed by people who want to play bat-oriented shifters that aren't psychic warriors, ur-priests, or woozoxops from Ultimate Obscure Handbook but rather into the more standard Shifter classes like ranger, barbarian, and rogue. Here's the build I'm thinking of using with it if our DM allows it (might look familiar): Camazotz Template +1 LA (buyoff by level 2/3): Fly at 40 (Good) while shifting, +4 Dex while shifting, counts as one shifter feat 1. Wilderness Rogue 1 * (Longtooth) Shifter Instincts 2. Ranger 1 [Track] 3. WRog 2 * Longtooth Elite 4. Rngr 2 [TWF] 5. Wrog 3 6. Wrog 4 * Shifter Defense 7. Wrog 5 8. Wrog 6 9. Wrog 7 * Imp TWF 10.Wrog 8 11.Wrog 9 12.Wrog 10 * Improved Shifter Defense Maybe go with Weapon Finesse instead of Shifter Defense at level 6, I dunno... Note that as it stands this character can shift 3/day by level 6. - Ron ^*^
Werebat 03-25-07, 10:17 AM	Psion is core. Check the SRD. And the defining attribute of the Swiftwing trait is that it is available at level 1. No other mechanic for flight is accessible at that level outside of extremely money rich campaigns. Would I play a character with non-hand dependant range attacks and flight in a 1-6 lvl game? Probably not, because such a character would run roughshod all over the game and over shadow other plays. Flight at level 1 is very powerful. However, I agree that, through some kind of mechanic (be it the Bat line of Weretouched Master you've proposed or another feat) something should be available at level 6 to beef up what is at that point becoming a not very impressive ability. You know, I remembered last night that the claw and bite attack traits scale with level (+1 damage per 4 character levels). Maybe if Swiftwing did the same? The only problem is that Longstrider DOESN'T scale with level, and once you get to the point where Swiftwing flight is faster than Longstrider ground speed, there's no point in having Longstrider (although you CAN use your hands while Longstriding, and more importantly there are many more ways to bump ground speed than there are to bump flight speed, so maybe they *would* still be competitive). Maybe +10 to flight speed per 4 levels, which would grant Fly 40 (Average) by 8th level and Fly 70 (Average) by level 20. Or just have Swiftwing grant a fly speed of 30 (not really much better than 20 at 1st level) and Swiftwing Elite a fly speed of 40 (Good). At least that somewhat alleviates the silliness of the Swiftwing barbarian who CAN fly but is faster when he runs. In the end I still think the +1 template is the way to go, it's easy enough to buy off and grants some nifty special perks useful to any shifter. - Ron ^*^
Tamujin 04-05-07, 11:39 AM	Maybe +10 to flight speed per 4 levels, which would grant Fly 40 (Average) by 8th level and Fly 70 (Average) by level 20. Personaly I would say a fly speed of 70 is way too fast, to me 50ft. seems reasonable (same as longstride with longstride elite feat) Or just have Swiftwing grant a fly speed of 30 (not really much better than 20 at 1st level) and Swiftwing Elite a fly speed of 40 (Good). this seems quite reasonable. also I want to point out that (just like Belabras)altough you can't use your hands, flight is still very powerfull, certainly at lower levels
Pinky's brain 04-05-07, 12:02 PM	At higher levels there are plenty of magic items which give you 60 feet fly speed.
Belabras 04-05-07, 12:12 PM	At higher levels there are plenty of magic items which give you 60 feet fly speed. True, which would be why a scaling mechanism for the trait would make a lot of sense. However, Swiftwing is the only way I know of to get flight at level 1.
Werebat 04-05-07, 04:14 PM	True, which would be why a scaling mechanism for the trait would make a lot of sense. However, Swiftwing is the only way I know of to get flight at level 1. Which makes it the "Toughness" of the Shifter Traits -- very nice at 1st level with the right character, and then you spent levels 5 and on wishing you'd taken something else. Again, I understand why it is so weak -- they surely compared it to Longstrider and concluded that if it granted Fly 40 +2 Dex at level 1, no one would ever take Longstrider (although I'm not completely convinced about that due to the stacking effects of Monk/Barbarian fast movement with land speed). It *may* be that the best fix involves a "Bat" template for WTM, as I've gone over before, with the first level of the PrC granting flight of 40' (Good) modified upwards for having Swiftwing (+10') and Swiftwing Elite (+10' more and Perfect Maneuverability). This bumps the maxed-out flier to Fly 60 (Perfect) which is comparable to the Fly spell a small handful of times per day at the expense of two feats and a PrC. Still I see a problem emerging of a high-Dex melee type with a major hit to sneak attacks and/or other methods of increasing damage. And as Pinky's Brain points out, if you're going to go WTM you're either foolish or going for flavor if you DON'T go tiger. I saw a Shifter Paragon PrC recently that might also help. Actually I've kinda given up on making a decent bat-themed shifter, and begun thinking more seriously about playing a Changeling Monk/Warshaper or Goblin Artificer in the next campaign I play in. Which is too bad, really, because I really like werebats. But... Poor mechanics, what are you gonna do? What I'd LIKE to see, thematically, is a flying bat-themed shifter that can be either: A: A high-Dex, competitive sneak-attacker or B: A competitive tooth-and-claw mauler I haven't found a good way to do either one though. "A" suffers from needing to take non-rogue (or non-scout) classes in order to get the batlike abilities, while "B" suffers from weretiger PWNZing in the claw/bite arena of shifting. - Ron ^*^
Belabras 04-05-07, 04:26 PM	Werebat - I'll hit my books tonight and see if I can't get you a pretty solid dive bomb attacking Swiftwing Shifter build. I'm pretty sure there are some feats in the draconic books that can help a great deal.
Werebat 04-05-07, 08:21 PM	Werebat - I'll hit my books tonight and see if I can't get you a pretty solid dive bomb attacking Swiftwing Shifter build. I'm pretty sure there are some feats in the draconic books that can help a great deal. Much obliged. Feel free to incorporate the "Bat" WTM build I've offered up here and elsewhere (Weretouched I: +2 Dex and Flight Enhancement, Weretouched II: Blindsense, Weretouched III: +2 Str, +2 Con, +2 Dex). - Ron ^*^
Belabras 04-06-07, 01:03 AM	And here's the quick build: Shifter, Swiftwing trait Rogue 5 WTM (Bat) 5 Feats: Swiftwing Elite (RoE) Shifter Agility (RoE) Extra Shifter Trait - Razorclaw (if DM will allow that to apply to feet, otherwise Longtooth) (WTM Bonus Feat) (RoE or ECS) RazorClaw Elite (if DM will allow that to apply to feet, otherwise Great Bite or Longtooth Elite) (WTM Bonus Feat) (RoE or ECS) Flyby Attack (MM) Power Dive (Draconomicon) (Note: Reinforced Wings and Heavyweight Wings let you wear medium and heavy armor while flying, if you want to go for more of a brute build. Both from Races of the Dragon) This 10th level character gets: +3d6 Sneak Attack Trapfinding Evasion Trap Sense +1 Uncanny Dodge Wild Empathy Can Shift 3 times a day Frightful Shifting while shifting +6 Dex, +4 Str, +2 Con while shifting +1 dodge bonus to AC, +1 to Reflex Saves while shifting 40ft Flight Speed while shifting Blindsense 40ft Strategy: You want to take opponents by suprise or flatfooted, and from above. If you do so, it is time to make a Power Dive. In a power dive you are making an unavoidable Overrun attack. You are going to want to have a lot of ranks in Tumble so you can avoid the AoO that accompanies such an action. As part of the Power Dive you can make one attack (or both Claw attacks if your DM allows it to count as a charge) + a slam attack at 1d6 (+Str, etc) damage if your overrun succeeds in knocking the opponent prone Sneak attack dice apply to all of these attacks Since you have Flyby Attack, your Power Dive is part of your move and you can regain altitude If you fail the overrun role you are knocked prone instead and take the slam damage yourself (but no Sneak Attack damage), so aim for casters instead of burley types. You'll need a high Dex and high Str for this build. Con doesn't hurt either. Sorrry about that.
Werebat 04-06-07, 08:01 AM	And here's the quick build: Neat. Extra Shifter Trait doesn't grant you the stat bonus, though. Furthermore, I think a 5-level hit to Sneak Attack just cripples the ability too much, especially since we're not going to be making more than one attack per round anyway. I'd be more inclined to go Barb1 (for Rage), Ranger 1 (for Tracking flavor), Shifter Paragon 3 (for 1 more shift per day and +2 to one stat), and then WTM5. But it looks like your build works pretty well with that configuration as well. I'll give it more of a think when there are no screaming children in the room, though. - Ron ^*^
Belabras 04-06-07, 11:32 AM	It will actually be 2 attacks most rounds, as long as the overrun is successful. The added bonus is that you can effectively keep the target prone until they die :D
Werebat 04-06-07, 11:55 AM	It will actually be 2 attacks most rounds, as long as the overrun is successful. The added bonus is that you can effectively keep the target prone until they die :D Ah; Screaming kids, they shut down your brain. I see it now. Actually 3 attacks if the DM goes for Razorclaw working with feet. Well that's an interesting build. It depends on there being a good amount of space to move around in, and I'd have to check up on the particulars to see if everything is kosher, but it might work. Invest in Braids of Dire Shifting so you're large most of the time and have reach. Something I was tossing around in my head was the idea of modifying "Bat" WTM so that Weretouched I grants a +10 to flight speed and one-level bump to maneuverability, as well as two more small powers that clean up some of the lamer aspects of Swiftwing shifting: first, while shifting, the character's feet become as dextrous as hands and can be used to cast spells, weild weapons, hang upside-down, etc (and presumably grow claws with razorclaw). Second, while shifting, any class-based bonus to land speed that the character has temporarily becomes a bonus to flight speed instead. This eliminates the problem of the Swiftwing Barbarian who is faster on the ground than in the air, even if he invests heavily in flight speed. Thus, your Barbarian (or Scout) Swiftwing with a land speed of 40 can now take Swiftwing (20' Average Fly), enhanced by WTM:Bat to 30' Good Fly, which becomes 40' Good Fly due to the Fast Move ability (which doesn't apply to land speed while he's shifting, so his land speed is 30). Swiftwing Elite pumps this up to 50' Perfect. Scout has the added bonus of granting Blindsense at higher levels, meaning a Swiftwing Scout using this method will probably just take a 1-2 level dip into WTM and not bother with the other levels because Weretouched II won't do much for him. Aaand such a character could conceivably weild a dagger in each foot while shifting. Strafing slash? - Ron ^*^
Werebat 04-06-07, 12:05 PM	It will actually be 2 attacks most rounds, as long as the overrun is successful. The added bonus is that you can effectively keep the target prone until they die :D Whoops, I'm not sure you're reading Power Dive correctly. I have noticed before that it is one of the dumbest feats in Draconomicon, because I can't think of a dragon that can effectively use it if you look at the prereqs and what it actually does. You need to have a Maneuverability of Average, which eliminates most of the larger dragons, and even the smaller ones are dumb to take it if they plan on surviving to large size. To compound this problem, the feat only works on opponents who are SMALLER than you. So this build you propose would work only against Small opponents. Good in a game where you fight lots of gnomes, maybe no so good in another game. Yeah, Braids of Dire Shifting will ameliorate this somewhat, but now they become a necessity, not just a good option. Also use of the feat is a "Standard Action", so I don't think it would permit natural weapon attacks as well. - Ron ^*^
Belabras 04-06-07, 01:39 PM	Really? When I read it last night It looked like the Slam Attack was in addition to an attack as part of the Overrun. Also, it appeared to apply to anything the same size or smaller than the creature making the Power Dive. That said, I don't have access to it right now. I'd have to take another look at it. Sorry to have mislead if I did. If you go for the Barbarian build definitely pick up the Reinforced Wings feat. You might also want to check out Tomb of Battle for the Shifter geared PRC to get the most from your claw attacks. The added shifting is good too.
Belabras 04-07-07, 12:45 AM	Hmm, you are right, the Power Dive can only effect creatures smaller than the attacker. Seems kind of silly. It's not really clear if you get an attack in addition to the Slam or not. Probably best to avoid such a badly worded feat. A thought: why not have the WTM(Bat) ability grant the same abilities as the Buffeting Wings graft from Races of the Dragon, except limited to while shifting. That would mean that any benefit to regular move speed would translate to flight speed, and that a Longtooth shifter would be able to do a Bite/Slam/Slam as part of a full attack.
Werebat 04-07-07, 08:15 AM	Hmm, you are right, the Power Dive can only effect creatures smaller than the attacker. Seems kind of silly. It's not really clear if you get an attack in addition to the Slam or not. Probably best to avoid such a badly worded feat. A thought: why not have the WTM(Bat) ability grant the same abilities as the Buffeting Wings graft from Races of the Dragon, except limited to while shifting. That would mean that any benefit to regular move speed would translate to flight speed, and that a Longtooth shifter would be able to do a Bite/Slam/Slam as part of a full attack. That's... Interesting. I'll have to check that feat out. Thanks! Only problem I can think of, off the top of my head, is that wing buffets don't specifically work with Shifter Savagery, which is really THE way to make shifter natural attacks work without sneak attacking. I do like the "Move bonuses apply to flight" thing, but for bats I think making the feet useful as hands works better thematically and rids the poor swiftwings of something that makes their flight particularly lame. It also lets them actually hang upside down! - Ron ^*^
WolfHati 04-12-07, 04:36 AM	A swiftwing monk would (literally) kick some serious behind. Or prod buttock at the very least. As far as I can tell, a monk's speed bonus isn't limited to your land speed, unlike the barbarian, the entry calls it a bonus to your speed and not land speed. And monks don't have to have their hands free to make attacks. Really, it's a perfect fit. The only downside I see is that I don't think you get to use deflect arrows while flying.
Werebat 04-12-07, 04:27 PM	A swiftwing monk would (literally) kick some serious behind. Or prod buttock at the very least. As far as I can tell, a monk's speed bonus isn't limited to your land speed, unlike the barbarian, the entry calls it a bonus to your speed and not land speed. And monks don't have to have their hands free to make attacks. Really, it's a perfect fit. The only downside I see is that I don't think you get to use deflect arrows while flying. Wow, I had not noticed that before, but you appear to be right. It isn't what I want to play, but a swiftwing monk does seem to have potential. And Deflect Arrows only says that you need at least one hand "free" (holding nothing). By level 12 they can keep up with the Fly spell, level 9 if they take Swiftwing Elite. The +4 total dex bonus from Shifter and Swiftwing just helps make Evasion ROXXORZ all the more. Take Longtooth and Longtooth Elite and you've got an extra attack that drains Con; then maybe go for the Shifter Defense feats or Beasthide extra trait. I've gotta say you've found a niche for the Swiftwing, even if it isn't in the theme I was looking for (wilderness rogue type). Shifter monks work well mechanically, not so well thematically for me. - Ron ^*^
korcheck 04-12-07, 06:26 PM	Wow, I had not noticed that before, but you appear to be right. It isn't what I want to play, but a swiftwing monk does seem to have potential. And Deflect Arrows only says that you need at least one hand "free" (holding nothing). By level 12 they can keep up with the Fly spell, level 9 if they take Swiftwing Elite. The +4 total dex bonus from Shifter and Swiftwing just helps make Evasion ROXXORZ all the more. Take Longtooth and Longtooth Elite and you've got an extra attack that drains Con; then maybe go for the Shifter Defense feats or Beasthide extra trait. I've gotta say you've found a niche for the Swiftwing, even if it isn't in the theme I was looking for (wilderness rogue type). Shifter monks work well mechanically, not so well thematically for me. - Ron ^*^ I had a thread on here about shifter monks and I really wish I had thought of or knew about this. I think that I could have come up with a better backstory for it and wouldn't have scratched the character.
Belabras 04-12-07, 08:46 PM	I'm going to second Werebat's praise. Good catch Woflhati!