Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Edymnion 03-28-07, 08:04 PM	Okay, just feeling ornery tonight, so lets have a bit of fun exploiting one of the worst official rulings that WotC has made for Eberron yet. If you get Reincarnated, you keep your dragonmark. And its only a lvl 4 spell, so there is actually a chance you could find a druid high enough level to cast it on you, even in Eberron. So, that means that, ruleswise, all you have to do is put into your character background that you did something special for some druids, died in the process, and got reincarnated, and boom, any race, with a dragonmark, and you don't have to worry about mental penalties. Sure, any competant DM would beat you with your own PHB for trying to pull this, but it is entirely rules legal. Obviously, this means you can get any standard PHB race with any dragonmark you want, reguardless of who is supposed to have it. It also means you can be an orc or bugbear with no penalties to your mental scores, or really anything since number 100 on the list is "Other, DM's Discretion", meaning you could reincarnate as any creature in the game. So, what abusable combos spring to mind for you? First one that springs to mind for me (since I just got off of the new artificer guide) is a Bugbear Meleeficer with it's +4 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con, which means you can put lots of points into your Intelligence and Charisma, and still be a melee monster. In fact, with this one, you could even make a wand of Reincarnate, hand it to anybody with so much as a single rank in UMD (if you don't have an actual druid in the party), and have them roll until they get the wand to activate. If you don't come back as what you want, just have 'em whack you and try again! Bugbear Meleeficer with the Mark of Finding anybody? Remember, this isn't intended to be serious, although it could be, its more a chance to enjoy yourself and poke some fun at shortsighted rules fixes.
Daydreamer 03-28-07, 08:21 PM	The contradiction of tales regarding Aeren in magic of eberron versus everything else annoys me. Also, regarding the reincarnate, sure you can keep your mark, but it doesnt say anywhere in the rules that such a mark can now be passed on genetically. So i just wouldnt allow that, its undisclosed in the rules one way or the other however.
goblin_pride 03-28-07, 08:26 PM	Also, regarding the reincarnate, sure you can keep your mark, i just would house rule it no longer passes on genetically. It may not pass on genetically anyway. Isn't there a bit on the reincarnate spell that says any abilities you had before that you couldn't use after reincarnation are lost? I'm guessing that would be the loophole that you'd use to nip the whole thought process in the bud. Sure, you get your D'mark after reincarnation, assuming you reincarnate into the exact same race you were before, maybe.
Edymnion 03-28-07, 08:31 PM	It may not pass on genetically anyway. Isn't there a bit on the reincarnate spell that says any abilities you had before that you couldn't use after reincarnation are lost? I'm guessing that would be the loophole that you'd use to nip the whole thought process in the bud. Sure, you get your D'mark after reincarnation, assuming you reincarnate into the exact same race you were before, maybe.Nope, the official rule explicitely states that if you reincarnate into a differant race, you retain full use of your dragonmark, any abilities that depend on your dragonmark, just that you can no longer pass the mark on. Other than that, you get all of the benefits of your new race, and none of the drawbacks (like losing access to your dragonmark). You can also find mention of it in the FAQ where they say the only way to lose access to your dragonmark is to become undead.
DragoonDarkfire 03-28-07, 08:58 PM	I'd go like this. 15th level human soulknife with the Siberys mark of sentinel and reincarnated as a Kalashtar. Completely invulnerable to any form of mental attack.
jonci 03-31-07, 01:05 AM	I think I would rule that you can't reincarnate into a Kalashtar. You would be missing half the concept of that race. But I guess that's a call for individual DMs.
Edymnion 03-31-07, 10:10 AM	I think I would rule that you can't reincarnate into a Kalashtar. You would be missing half the concept of that race. But I guess that's a call for individual DMs.Now now, common sense and good DM'ing doesn't enter into the equation here, as any good DM wouldn't allow it in the first place. :D
goblin_pride 03-31-07, 06:50 PM	Nope, the official rule explicitely states that if you reincarnate into a differant race, you retain full use of your dragonmark, any abilities that depend on your dragonmark, just that you can no longer pass the mark on. The spell description says that any abilities you can't use in your new form are lost, it's said that in the spell description since that spell was added when druids were added to the game. I think I'll be using that as a guideline myself. Once again, it would seem that I am at odds with the FAQ. Frankly I'm beginning to wonder if the writers of the FAQ read and write english or even play the game. A player that thinks that he can reincarnate and pop up a D'mark on a race that can't have them is gonna be in for a shock when he has the marking but it doesn't work. You spent a feat on that? you should've thought about that before trying to blantantly ignore the bit where the feat says "member of a dragonmarked race", eh? No, you can't take another feat in it's place, you chose it, you're stuck with it.
Edymnion 03-31-07, 08:12 PM	The spell description says that any abilities you can't use in your new form are lost, it's said that in the spell description since that spell was added when druids were added to the game. I think I'll be using that as a guideline myself. Once again, it would seem that I am at odds with the FAQ. Frankly I'm beginning to wonder if the writers of the FAQ read and write english or even play the game.Probably not. Remember, these are the same people that claimed most people were too stupid to figure out what the DMG said, and instead of actually clarifying the rules, went "Well, you're all playing it this way anyway, so we'll just say you could possibly twist the rules into sort of meaning that, so fine, go with it."
BlackTiger 04-05-07, 06:34 AM	Actually, I admittedly abused this in my game. As a GM. A ways back, a very well prepared sorcorer half-dragon planned out his spell accquisition so he could impersonate a high-level dragonmarked heir. And then offed the person he intended to impersonate, a high level bodyguard for Esravesh d'Lyrandar. Unfortunately, said half dragon didn't realize the half-elf bodyguard had a daughter, a prodigal druid in the King's Forest, who reincarnated him. This led to the unusual situation of a gnoll with the greater mark of storm and an oath Bow in an arrow-fight with a 'dragonmarked heir' with identical abilities, and magic missiles and some illusion spells mimicking the Oathbow. Needless to say, PCs were confused about things.
JulesCARV 04-05-07, 07:06 AM	How 'bout this: 1. Be a changeling. 2. Take Racial Emulation. 3. Be a psion. 4. Take psychic reformation as a power. There. Now you can switch dragonmarks all you want. You can't have gnome or halfling dragonmarks, because you can only emulate medium-sized creatures, but besides that, by level 9, you can have any greater dragonmark you want (although that requires psychicly reforming through seven levels, so it costs 350 xp) (Or, if you don't mind just having least dragonmarks, and want to be cheap XP-wise, you can always just be a chameleon with racial emulation. Or you could be a chameleon/psion and use the chameleon for the least dragonmark, and then save a bit of XP by using the psychic reformation only for the lesser and possibly greater dragonmarks.)
The White Sorcerer 04-05-07, 10:06 AM	How 'bout this: 1. Be a changeling. 2. Take Racial Emulation. 3. Be a psion. 4. Take psychic reformation as a power. There. Now you can switch dragonmarks all you want. That only works if there is nothing more to race than subtype.
goblin_pride 04-05-07, 10:18 AM	Umm, guys, I think Edy was complaining that there was a way to get a D'mark on any race. Something tells me the point wasn't to find other ways to cheese the same effect.
UnderworldLord 04-05-07, 10:30 AM	I like going with your interpretation of it Goblin_Pride. Keeps it simple, and slows the cheese flow. Just have to hide that pesky Cataclysm Mage, which seriously needs to be specified.
goblin_pride 04-05-07, 10:36 AM	I like going with your interpretation of it Goblin_Pride. Keeps it simple, and slows the cheese flow. Just have to hide that pesky Cataclysm Mage, which seriously needs to be specified. Heck, I still let a druid add or subtract from the reincarnation roll to decide the new form. If you let them add or subtract up to their level from the roll, a powerful druid really can make you come back as a toad* if he wants. Cataclysm mages are just wrong. Any of my players that ask to play one are going to have an imprint from the spine of my DMG in the middle of their forehead. *yes, I know toad isn't on the list. But if a 20 druid rolls an 80+ on the chart, I'd let him pick the race for that "DM's choice". I'm a nice guy like that.
Edymnion 04-05-07, 06:39 PM	Cataclysm Mage doesn't exist. Its just a bad dream. Just keep telling yourself that until you believe it. There are five lights.
korcheck 04-05-07, 08:22 PM	I don't see an issue with cataclysm mages there no more powerful then that freakin class in the complete arcane (or is it divine?) that by 20 essentially lets you cast as a 15lvl cleric/15lvl mage not that class is scary and I mean monster in my pocket scary, not 58 yr old man dressed like a baby scary.:D ah I remembered the name the Mystic Thuerge
Vharuck 04-05-07, 09:17 PM	I have no problem with Cataclysm Mages either. Rules lawyering to get a race that normally shouldn't have a dragonmark to have one is bad. But a class based around manipulating the Prophecy and then forcing yourself into it (albeit in a very minor way) maintains the flavor's consistency.
The White Sorcerer 04-06-07, 08:46 AM	You know, I'd allow a player to bring a "he's dragonmarked and got reincarnated" character to my game. I'd just require the player to roll for the character's new race, using the normal reincarnation table.
sooperspook 04-06-07, 09:03 AM	The Cataclysm Mage is fine as is. In fact, the entire point of that class is that it plays havoc with the rules. Remember that it specifically says, anyone who achieves any levels in this class whatsoever is going to have the Chamber after them as soon as he is known. I think having an entire X-files conspiracy worth of Dragons after you is enough of a draw back to discourage abuse of this class. Anyway, none of you have mentioned a rather nasty further cheesing of the rules Edy started. Multiple Dragonmarks. it works like this: 1: Be a dragonmark race. Take appropriate Least Dmk. 2: Die and be reincarnated as another dragonmark race. 3: level up and take another Least Dmk feat. 4: Repeat 2. Nothing in the feats preclude taking multiples of this feat, since each feat is essentially a separate one.
goblin_pride 04-06-07, 10:44 AM	That's it. Where'd I put my DMG?
Edymnion 04-06-07, 12:17 PM	Anyway, none of you have mentioned a rather nasty further cheesing of the rules Edy started. Multiple Dragonmarks. it works like this: 1: Be a dragonmark race. Take appropriate Least Dmk. 2: Die and be reincarnated as another dragonmark race. 3: level up and take another Least Dmk feat. 4: Repeat 2. Nothing in the feats preclude taking multiples of this feat, since each feat is essentially a separate one.*opens his mouth and holds up his finger to dissagree* *stops* *jaw drops to the floor, Daffy Duck style* My god, he's right. Nowhere in the dragonmark feats does it ever say already having a dragonmark precludes you from taking another one, working on the assumption that race is something you can't change, with the reincarnate cheese breaking it. Ooh, here's a question. Does Heir of Syberis count as only one PrC, or is it a single PrC for each dragonmark? Could you take it as early as possible, get your Siberys Mark, reincarnate and immediantly take HoS again to get another Syberis Mark, lather rinse repeat?
Arcane Guyver 04-06-07, 12:43 PM	I am seriously praying that there's some eratta for the ECS sometime soon. This crap is ridiculous.
jamez 04-06-07, 03:28 PM	*looks* There! Are! FOUR! Lights! *shuffles away*
The White Sorcerer 04-06-07, 03:42 PM	Nothing in the feats preclude taking multiples of this feat, since each feat is essentially a separate one. Wrong. A feat can, unless otherwise noted, only be taken once, and Least Dragonmark is a single feat. Least Dragonmark (Storm) and Least Dragonmark (Finding) are not two separate feats.
bbthereaper 04-06-07, 03:58 PM	Yeah, or else you wouldn't have to die; you could just be a human and decide to take the Mark of Making and the Mark of Passage at level one or something. Dragonmarks aren't listed as "You can take this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat,..." And what is this Cataclysm Mage? I know it's in the Explorer's Handbook, and I've heard of the capstone Dragonmark ability, but that's it.
Edymnion 04-06-07, 09:40 PM	I am seriously praying that there's some eratta for the ECS sometime soon. This crap is ridiculous.The ECS is correct. This cheese comes from the online stuff, like the FAQ. And god knows they won't retract this kind of statement, as it would be admitting that not only did the drop the ball, but they ran down the field, left the stadium, got on a flight to Hong Kong, and didn't look back.
Daydreamer 04-06-07, 10:09 PM	Wrong. A feat can, unless otherwise noted, only be taken once, and Least Dragonmark is a single feat. Least Dragonmark (Storm) and Least Dragonmark (Finding) are not two separate feats. this is how i view it.
Arcane Guyver 04-07-07, 06:42 AM	The ECS is correct. This cheese comes from the online stuff, like the FAQ. And god knows they won't retract this kind of statement, as it would be admitting that not only did the drop the ball, but they ran down the field, left the stadium, got on a flight to Hong Kong, and didn't look back. Well, I was thinking that if they updated the ECS errata to clarify some of these issues, then the FAQ answer would be anulled. But...yeah, that does seem unlikely considering the source.
The White Sorcerer 04-07-07, 07:21 AM	Why are you assuming that the designers didn't read the rules and made a mistake? Is it really so unbelievable that the dragonmark-reincarnation issue might be a conscious exception to the rules and not an error? I think you're underestimating the designers.
Kid SixXx 04-07-07, 07:49 AM	Why are you assuming that the designers didn't read the rules and made a mistake? Is it really so unbelievable that the dragonmark-reincarnation issue might be a conscious exception to the rules and not an error? Is the day before Easter supposed to be Devil's Advocate Day or did a dev promise you a free copy of Eyes of the Lich Queen in exchange for your advocacy? I know you tend to enjoy being contrarian, WS, but do you seriously believe that it's not a correction to an error? 1. Eberron & Player Death. Since the beginning of the setting, there's always been issues with the permanence of Death in the Campaign. In the older AKB thread, Keith seemed to advocate permanent death (or at least suggested that reversing it should require a plot seagueway of its own) and lots of Eberron faithful followed suit. Arguably the whole bitter & dumb "Can A Warforged Juggernaut Be Raised?" debacle came about because of the mechanics of death in the setting & how DM's suddenly felt about the ability to Raise Dead in the campaign. The reasonable alternative: Reincarnation. 2. Reincarnation & Pre-Reqs Then, there is the oft quoted passage from the SRD that we've seen millions of times. From the SRD: Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat. A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he or she gains the prerequisite. A character can’t use a feat if he or she has lost a prerequisite Sadly, the Dragonmark feats have racial prerequisites and your race changes whenever you are reincarnated. Metaphysical mumbo jumbo fluff about the soul is not an issue when mechanically speaking, the fact of the matter is that a Hobgoblin is clearly not a Human. As with the example you yourself love to bring up so much, "What is the race of a 20th level monk?" Or a Renegade Mastermaker at the last progression level of the PrC? Who'd willingly take a class knowing that eventually they'd lose feats as they progressed in the class. Or worse, lose three feats if you took all three Dragonmarked feats, died, & were ressurected as a race that didn't qualify for the feat. I'd thought that was pretty self evident that the ruling on reincarnation was to address those issues. Even moreso since the sidebar is in an article written for Eberron and not some other setting: a hint that the Reincarnation issue affects our setting more than anyone elses. The Reincarnation patch is the crunch to keep psychotic DM's from cheerfully enforcing the Feat Pre-Req rule in an effort to screw over their players by robbing them of use of a feat, especially in an Eberron campaign where (unlike in the FR) death actually can be a career ending situation. The devs were smart enough to head that situation off at the pass. It wasn't proactive, it was reactive. If it was proactive, we'd have seen the rule a bit sooner than two years after the launch of the setting, I'd think. I personally find it funny and pathetic that the devs are keenly aware of the sadistic natures of your average puerile DM & had to build in a rule to protect him from himself, less he go insane with assumed RPG power and enforce rules to the detriment of his players.
goblin_pride 04-07-07, 10:21 AM	Why are you assuming that the designers didn't read the rules and made a mistake? Is it really so unbelievable that the dragonmark-reincarnation issue might be a conscious exception to the rules and not an error? I think you're underestimating the designers. Or it could be that they omitted the bit where it said that "any abilities you can't use in the new form are lost" in the spell description. You'll find that little rule of thumb will probably be returned to the spell by any of the DMs that have read this thread and want to dam the flow of cheese in regard to D'marks.
The White Sorcerer 04-07-07, 11:54 AM	Or it could be that they omitted the bit where it said that "any abilities you can't use in the new form are lost" in the spell description. OR, there just might be a slight chance that they actually know the rules and WILLINGLY made an exception?
goblin_pride 04-07-07, 12:19 PM	OR, there just might be a slight chance that they actually know the rules and WILLINGLY made an exception? My point was that the line I quoted managed to disappear between the TSR and WotC editions. I wasn't being funny, I was pointing out that the spell as printed in the PHB 3.5 supports your point by omitting the line that would remove all doubt regarding the situation in question. It would seem that a change was made to the druid's only resurrection-type spell that does support your argument as written.
The White Sorcerer 04-07-07, 12:30 PM	My point was that the line I quoted managed to disappear between the TSR and WotC editions. Oooh. Sorry, my misunderstanding.
Edymnion 04-07-07, 01:38 PM	*looks* There! Are! FOUR! Lights! *shuffles away*I'm glad that *SOMEBODY* got that. :)Why are you assuming that the designers didn't read the rules and made a mistake? Is it really so unbelievable that the dragonmark-reincarnation issue might be a conscious exception to the rules and not an error? I think you're underestimating the designers.Is it so unbelievable that the humans made a mistake, and don't want to admit it, instead of trying to rewrite half the PHB to find a way to force the rules to fit? I think you're putting the designers on an impossibly high pedistal where they can do no wrong.The Reincarnation patch is the crunch to keep psychotic DM's from cheerfully enforcing the Feat Pre-Req rule in an effort to screw over their players by robbing them of use of a feat, especially in an Eberron campaign where (unlike in the FR) death actually can be a career ending situation. The devs were smart enough to head that situation off at the pass. It wasn't proactive, it was reactive. If it was proactive, we'd have seen the rule a bit sooner than two years after the launch of the setting, I'd think. I personally find it funny and pathetic that the devs are keenly aware of the sadistic natures of your average puerile DM & had to build in a rule to protect him from himself, less he go insane with assumed RPG power and enforce rules to the detriment of his players.So, do you let the guy that reincarnates into a Str 3 pixie keep his power attack? Or the elf that reincarnates into a gnoll keep taking levels in Arcane Archer?
The White Sorcerer 04-07-07, 03:03 PM	Is it so unbelievable that the humans made a mistake, and don't want to admit it, instead of trying to rewrite half the PHB to find a way to force the rules to fit? I think you're putting the designers on an impossibly high pedistal where they can do no wrong. I like to make positive assumptions. Beats the alternative. Also, rewriting half the PHB? I've clearly missed something. Also also, I don't think "don't screw up all the time" is not an impossibly high pedestal.
korcheck 04-07-07, 03:14 PM	As a question of whether or not someone reincarnated would keep the abilities my answer is simple. My house, My table, My game, My rules only its easy you lose what doesn't fit the new race and choose corresponding feats, skills, or anything else to fit I don't care about semantics or mechanics. At the same time however if your character was say a half-orc barbarian and the roll turns you into a fairie it will be reroll I won't allow a player to be screwed like that unless they like it (and some do).
Edymnion 04-07-07, 04:43 PM	I like to make positive assumptions. Beats the alternative. Also, rewriting half the PHB? I've clearly missed something. Also also, I don't think "don't screw up all the time" is not an impossibly high pedestal."Hope for the best, plan for the worst." I hope they don't screw things up, but I'm not surprised when they do.
The White Sorcerer 04-07-07, 05:22 PM	"Hope for the best, plan for the worst." I hope they don't screw things up, but I'm not surprised when they do. But would it surprise you if they didn't screw up? If a WotC designer came here and said "We knew what we were doing," would you believe him?
Edymnion 04-07-07, 06:21 PM	But would it surprise you if they didn't screw up? If a WotC designer came here and said "We knew what we were doing," would you believe him?Sure. But I would then question his competance as a designer. :P
goblin_pride 04-07-07, 06:46 PM	So, do you let the guy that reincarnates into a Str 3 pixie keep his power attack? Or the elf that reincarnates into a gnoll keep taking levels in Arcane Archer? According to the description of Reincarnate in 3.5, yes.
The White Sorcerer 04-07-07, 07:48 PM	Sure. But I would then question his competance as a designer. :P And what makes the resurrection issue such a huge mistake? And please, no more "It breaks the rules," please humor me and assume it's a deliberate exception.
Just another user 04-07-07, 07:56 PM	I'd thought that was pretty self evident that the ruling on reincarnation was to address those issues. Even moreso since the sidebar is in an article written for Eberron and not some other setting: a hint that the Reincarnation issue affects our setting more than anyone elses. The Reincarnation patch is the crunch to keep psychotic DM's from cheerfully enforcing the Feat Pre-Req rule in an effort to screw over their players by robbing them of use of a feat, especially in an Eberron campaign where (unlike in the FR) death actually can be a career ending situation. It is worth mentioning here that a better patch for the problem (and one that IMHO would have make a lot more sense) would have been to say something like "If you have a dragonmark you are part of the prophecy, and the power of the prophecy make you always reincarnate in the same race you were before" (and then you can keep your dragonmarks) no feat lost (at least were DM are concerned and flavor preserved.
goblin_pride 04-07-07, 09:09 PM	It is worth mentioning here that a better patch for the problem (and one that IMHO would have make a lot more sense) would have been to say something like "If you have a dragonmark you are part of the prophecy, and the power of the prophecy make you always reincarnate in the same race you were before" (and then you can keep your dragonmarks) The problem then is that it becomes a lower-level version of Raise Dead and it loses the flavor druids get by having a different spell altogether.
Edymnion 04-07-07, 09:16 PM	And what makes the resurrection issue such a huge mistake? And please, no more "It breaks the rules," please humor me and assume it's a deliberate exception.Aside from the fact that it makes all feat prereqs meaningless, destroys the flavor of dragonmarks only appearing on select races, and opening the door to the kind of cheese that we've already looked at in this thread? I happen to prefer the days when a shifter running around with a Dragonmark had to hide it out of fear that they would "dissappear" one day, either into the hands of the dragons for study, or one of the marked houses, or whatever else. With this, *ANY* creature in the game can have a dragonmark, and it can happen on a fairly routine basis (since Reincarnate is a low enough level spell that it wouldn't be a huge issue to find someone capable of casting it). Whats the point when an ogre can walk through town with a dragonmark across his face and just go "Oh, I used to be human."? Heck, lets turn this around into something thats more obvious. What do you do with a Warforged that reincarnates as a human, that took a body feat? Are you saying that they get to keep their Adamantine Body, even though they're human now? Why not? Mechanically, its just a feat, just like a Dragonmark. And with this, we've got precidence that reincarnating into another race doesn't disqualify your racial prereq feats, so by this logic, you can have a Human with Adamantine Body, and just say he was reincarnated.
goblin_pride 04-07-07, 10:22 PM	Heck, lets turn this around into something thats more obvious. What do you do with a Warforged that reincarnates as a human, that took a body feat? Are you saying that they get to keep their Adamantine Body, even though they're human now? Why not? Mechanically, its just a feat, just like a Dragonmark. Shh, damnit, Edy. If they read the spell description that is possible. You've opened another cheese flow.
jamez 04-08-07, 12:14 AM	I'm glad that *SOMEBODY* got that. :) That's why I am here. I like to pick up the slack.
The White Sorcerer 04-08-07, 01:50 AM	1a. Aside from the fact that it makes all feat prereqs meaningless 1b. destroys the flavor of dragonmarks only appearing on select races 1c. and opening the door to the kind of cheese that we've already looked at in this thread? 2. With this, *ANY* creature in the game can have a dragonmark, and it can happen on a fairly routine basis (since Reincarnate is a low enough level spell that it wouldn't be a huge issue to find someone capable of casting it). 3. Whats the point when an ogre can walk through town with a dragonmark across his face and just go "Oh, I used to be human."? 1a: Wrong. Dragonmarks are the only exception (that I know of). 1b: That's merely your opinion, I don't think it does. 1c: If you're allowing characters to start reincarnated, screw dragonmarks, I'd make a human reincarnated as a half-orc. Yay for free Str +2 and darkvision! 2. It's a whole different matter to find someone willing to cast it. 3. But can he? Just because it's possible doesn't mean it's accepted and kosher.
Just another user 04-08-07, 07:21 PM	The problem then is that it becomes a lower-level version of Raise Dead and it loses the flavor druids get by having a different spell altogether. 1st it is a lower level version of raise dead only if the DM don't enforce the fact that you are actually A DIFFERENT PERSON. How do you explain to the kundarak that you are the some person that have an account in their banks, or to your House that you are who you say you are? Second, It is a lower level of raise dead only for characters with a (true?) dragonmark (and if you use it as an home rule they don't even need to know it.) And Reincarnation is not so common anyway, if it was then everyone with the money would use it to become essentially immortal -when you are reincarnated you return as a young adult creature, there must be some reason why old nobles/high ranked members of dragonmarked houses don't use it to return young periodically.
goblin_pride 04-08-07, 09:11 PM	And Reincarnation is not so common anyway, if it was then everyone with the money would use it to become essentially immortal -when you are reincarnated you return as a young adult creature, there must be some reason why old nobles/high ranked members of dragonmarked houses don't use it to return young periodically. You can't use it if the target creature died of old age. At least they managed to not drop that restriction when they rewrote the spell description.
bbthereaper 04-08-07, 09:23 PM	...but someone who's getting on in the years could simply stab themselves and be reincarnated several years younger, repeating the cycle as needed, right? I mean, assuming such persons had consistent access to Reincarnate, which might be ... difficult in Eberron, to say the least. Mechanically, though that's correct, I think.
goblin_pride 04-09-07, 03:42 AM	...but someone who's getting on in the years could simply stab themselves and be reincarnated several years younger, repeating the cycle as needed, right? I mean, assuming such persons had consistent access to Reincarnate, which might be ... difficult in Eberron, to say the least. Mechanically, though that's correct, I think. No, you're not understanding. When you generate a character the DM is supposed to determine the maximum age that you can attain. When you reach that age you die, no resurrection, no reincarnation, nothing can allow you to pass beyond the maximum age of your race. Even reincarnation won't allow it. If you reach the end of your years based on your original race you will die because that is the natural order of things, even though you were reincarnated as a young adult elf.
bbthereaper 04-09-07, 09:21 AM	So, you still die, you just don't have any age penalties or anything? That seems a bit bizarre, though then again, so is a lot of stuff about D&D.
The White Sorcerer 04-09-07, 09:29 AM	No, you're not understanding. When you generate a character the DM is supposed to determine the maximum age that you can attain. When you reach that age you die, no resurrection, no reincarnation, nothing can allow you to pass beyond the maximum age of your race. Even reincarnation won't allow it. If you reach the end of your years based on your original race you will die because that is the natural order of things, even though you were reincarnated as a young adult elf. So, you still die, you just don't have any age penalties or anything? That seems a bit bizarre, though then again, so is a lot of stuff about D&D. Wait, am I understanding you correctly: If my human character is 70 years old (max age 75), dies, and gets reincarnated, he'll still die in 5 years? I'm not sure that's how it works. I might be just misunderstanding, though.
goblin_pride 04-09-07, 10:21 AM	Wait, am I understanding you correctly: If my human character is 70 years old (max age 75), dies, and gets reincarnated, he'll still die in 5 years? I'm not sure that's how it works. I might be just misunderstanding, though. According to the spell description, that is exactly how it works. You cannot reincarnate beyond your scope of years. Your maximum age is your maximum regardless of the new form's potential maximum.
Just another user 04-09-07, 10:23 AM	You can't use it if the target creature died of old age. At least they managed to not drop that restriction when they rewrote the spell description. You don't need to wait for your natural death, when you are, let's say 65, get someone to kill you and cast reincarnate on you, sure there are problems but nothing insurmontable, if you have the will and the money, repeat every 50 years and you are immortal,
goblin_pride 04-09-07, 10:28 AM	You don't need to wait for your natural death, when you are, let's say 65, get someone to kill you and cast reincarnate on you, sure there are problems but nothing insurmontable, if you have the will and the money, repeat every 50 years and you are immortal, No, because assuming you're human you only have 45 more years to live to reach the absolute maximum age for humans and then die, regardless of your new form. Reincarnate only buys you more time, it doesn't allow you to live eternally.
The White Sorcerer 04-09-07, 12:55 PM	What if the character hasn't reached venerable age yet, and thus his maximum age hasn't been determined yet? Or, what if an elf of 160 years is reincarnated as a human? How does he age?
goblin_pride 04-09-07, 01:50 PM	Or, what if an elf of 160 years is reincarnated as a human? How does he age? That's where it gets funny. An elf reincarnated as a human ages like a human but can be reincarnated after reaching the maximum age for a human because the age limit carries over from his original form as far as I can tell from reading the description. Reincarnate is a really hard spell to understand due to the odd nature of the spell.
The White Sorcerer 04-09-07, 03:38 PM	Reincarnate is a really hard spell to understand due to the odd nature of the spell. Eh. I'd save myself a ton of headaches by taking "comes back as a young adult" as meaning the character's age resets.
Zaistars69 04-09-07, 03:58 PM	Eh. I'd save myself a ton of headaches by taking "comes back as a young adult" as meaning the character's age resets. this works for me since the spell say it brings you back as a young adult and the rules say you don't even bother to calculate your max age until you are venerable. But as goblin_pride does it you could be the oldest human in existance, ahh finally the true story as to how Elminster can be so damn old...wait wrong board.
goblin_pride 04-09-07, 04:43 PM	Eh. I'd save myself a ton of headaches by taking "comes back as a young adult" as meaning the character's age resets. The -1 level or -2 CON per reincarnation would limit the number of times you could do it a bit. And there is that pesky problem of finding a druid willing to let you defy that little law of nature that says everything must die eventually. I realize that seems a bit odd, but why do you think druids don't make themselves live forever by simply reincarnating each other over and over?
Just another user 04-09-07, 05:52 PM	The -1 level or -2 CON per reincarnation would limit the number of times you could do it a bit. And there is that pesky problem of finding a druid willing to let you defy that little law of nature that says everything must die eventually. That's what artificer are for. Honestly, your "maximum age permanent limit" is just an home rule, I found nothing in the rules that say what are you saying. The point is that you must come up with a reason if you don't want the top tier of Eberron society to go around forever, or for a very long time, even if they are unable to gain a level in 50 years this mean an average of 5 consecutive reincarnations before they hit the zero, more if they can use magic than increase CON. (and there are other ways to reach a pseudo immortality by the RAW, like the clone spell). So the question is, if you have reasonably illimited resources and there is a spell that can reincarnate you in a young adult something and that your artificer not limited by religious conception can cast, and you know that dying will send you in a very bleack place like dolurh, then why aren't you using that spell to not die for a long, long, long time. Baker suggested the use of Inevitables, that is even a good idea, but it is a (house) rule that must be enforced, and not only for reincarnation but even for use of raise dead and probably undeads too, one would wonder why, for example, Vol, a thousand of years old lich, is not under a continual assault of Inevitables that want to restore the balance that she is breaking, or if she is how do they deal with it, or if it something that affect only the Pcs character for some reason. :)
UnderworldLord 04-10-07, 11:00 AM	Vol is fulfilling the draconic prophecy. How else does an entire continent of dragons that nuked an entire continent of giants miss one elf girl? [Disclaimer: All opinions stated above are mine and mine alone, despite whether they look like statements of fact or not. Please also interject the possibility of humor into all statements regarding cheesy rules and the lawyering of said cheesy rules, and the lawyering of all non-cheesy rules as well.]
Fallen_AngelS 04-11-07, 03:53 PM	Cataclysm Mage doesn't exist. Its just a bad dream. Just keep telling yourself that until you believe it. There are five lights. Chain. Season 6.
Daydreamer 04-12-07, 12:32 AM	whats the deal with cataclysm mages?
UnderworldLord 04-12-07, 10:58 AM	The capstone ability is... rediculous, to say the least.
Edymnion 04-12-07, 07:56 PM	whats the deal with cataclysm mages?Their capstone ability is that they can manifest any dragonmark, reguardless of race or bloodline. And this includes the Mark of Death.
korcheck 04-12-07, 08:16 PM	Their capstone ability is that they can manifest any dragonmark, reguardless of race or bloodline. And this includes the Mark of Death. except the mark of death isn't statted out so there is know reference to go off of except what the DM allows.
Daydreamer 04-12-07, 10:08 PM	sounds pretty bad, not from a power perspective so much as from the perspective of flavour....what supplement has that in it?
korcheck 04-13-07, 04:16 PM	sounds pretty bad, not from a power perspective so much as from the perspective of flavour....what supplement has that in it? That is in the explorer's handbook I believe. Also, for everyone out there who believe that it is too powerful maybe, consider this to add worse to the bad what if the player also takes all of the abberant feats then they can use all the dragon marks and use abberant marks. Can you say "twinked to the Nth power."
goblin_pride 04-13-07, 04:21 PM	Can you say "twinked to the Nth power." I could, but I prefer to swing my DMG at moments like that.
korcheck 04-13-07, 05:15 PM	I could, but I prefer to swing my DMG at moments like that. SCREAMS: NO LOVE, NO LOVE MAN!!! :D
goblin_pride 04-13-07, 08:32 PM	SCREAMS: NO LOVE, NO LOVE MAN!!! :D When it comes to Cataclysm mages, consider yourself lucky if you clear the room without a concussion. I have seen some serious munchkining over the course of my gaming experience, but that PrC is so far out of balance it's not even funny.
korcheck 04-13-07, 09:10 PM	When it comes to Cataclysm mages, consider yourself lucky if you clear the room without a concussion. I have seen some serious munchkining over the course of my gaming experience, but that PrC is so far out of balance it's not even funny. Funny you should say that.... I have a 3rd lvl bard, currently I plan to take him to 5th and then go the abberant hier PrC that I found on savevsdm. After that I and my DM are looking into this class as an option. This is wholy dependent on where the game goes however since while my charachter may be an academic adventurer now things may eventually change do to the story we'll see
goblin_pride 04-13-07, 11:18 PM	Funny you should say that.... I'm pretty good with this thing at range, but Nevada? You have got to be kidding me.
bbthereaper 04-13-07, 11:31 PM	Well, he said that he was going to do abberant heir, so I presume he has an aberrant dragonmark. Would the capstone ability enable one to manifest a second dragonmark? And, is the cataclysm mage bad besides the last ability? You might change it to something else...
korcheck 04-14-07, 09:52 AM	actually it's not an issue (still peaking out from behind the couch watching for U.F.B's) after reviewing some things with my DM I decided to go the shadow dancer route after 10th lvl instead by that time I will need a few lvls at least in fighting classes with all the houses trying to kill me at least I think that is where he is going to go with this game he hasn't said it but he love's his plot devises and my character is a walking plot devise.
goblin_pride 04-14-07, 10:48 AM	An abberant with the Heir of Khyber? Oh, that could be a giggle. Be sure to take the leadership feat so that you can strike back at the puremarked houses at the head of a body of troops. A quick little Guerrila War of the Mark anyone?
Edymnion 04-14-07, 02:24 PM	And, is the cataclysm mage bad besides the last ability? You might change it to something else...Well, the dragonmarks are supposed to be a big part of the draconic prophesy, they are a relatively new addition to the field, and the dragons are all taking intense interest in their appearance, and the interactions between dragonmarked characters. They don't really know what it means any more than anybody else does yet, although they have their theories. The prophesy is so complicated, that normal mortals have no hope of understanding it due to the thousands of years it takes just to become literate in it, meaning the only ones that have any chance at it are the Dragons, and to a lesser degree the Undying. And yet the Cataclysm Mage turns around and says that essentially a 17 year old half-orc can learn enough ins and outs of the prophesy to essentially hotwire it, break all the established rules as to how it works, and make a mess of things. Its essentially the same as having a 12 year old walk up to Einstein, tell him that the theory of relativity is wrong, that they figured out how to fly faster than the speed of light while eating their cheerios, and then proceeds to warp to the neutral zone for tea with the romulans. Basically, we get all the books saying "Dragonmarks are mysterious, they choose the bearer not the other way around, etc" and then we get a book with a PrC that stands all that on it's head. That just sucks.
korcheck 04-14-07, 07:09 PM	Well, the dragonmarks are supposed to be a big part of the draconic prophesy, they are a relatively new addition to the field, and the dragons are all taking intense interest in their appearance, and the interactions between dragonmarked characters. They don't really know what it means any more than anybody else does yet, although they have their theories. The prophesy is so complicated, that normal mortals have no hope of understanding it due to the thousands of years it takes just to become literate in it, meaning the only ones that have any chance at it are the Dragons, and to a lesser degree the Undying. And yet the Cataclysm Mage turns around and says that essentially a 17 year old half-orc can learn enough ins and outs of the prophesy to essentially hotwire it, break all the established rules as to how it works, and make a mess of things. Its essentially the same as having a 12 year old walk up to Einstein, tell him that the theory of relativity is wrong, that they figured out how to fly faster than the speed of light while eating their cheerios, and then proceeds to warp to the neutral zone for tea with the romulans. Basically, we get all the books saying "Dragonmarks are mysterious, they choose the bearer not the other way around, etc" and then we get a book with a PrC that stands all that on it's head. That just sucks. No. That is what makes the class great, it goes out there slaps everyone and everything in the face by pulling the old jaws routine ("just when you thought it was safe to get back into the water...") and demands to be accepted. The whole concept of the class is that as one delves deeper into the past and further into knowledge that may or may not be best left alone that understanding and knowledge leads to power. If you read the class discription and play it as it is meant to be then no one has actually reached the mythic tenth lvl and the group as a whole has plans to one day step before the chamber for the final age. My DM and I both agree that this is as it should be because the only group that knows of the age of dragons (which is what the final lvl of this class represents) are the dragons. This class is perfectly playable and extremely dangerous, if you play by the suggested rules that you cannot proceed further in the class until you complete each personal prophecy in turn (rolled randomly and one of which is to DIE) then it evens the playing field alot. at the end of the day this goes against alot of cannon (sp?) but alot of classes do that this is just more in your face about it. Oh well these are just my thoughts on the whole thing.:D
Arcane Guyver 04-14-07, 09:10 PM	It's my belief that the Cataclysm Mage, as well as most of Magic of Eberron, should just be ignored.
Edymnion 04-14-07, 09:37 PM	It's my belief that the Cataclysm Mage, as well as most of Magic of Eberron, should just be ignored.Considering that I'm an Artificer guy, I would have to dissagree with ignoring MoE. :P
Count Nerindil Van Seraph 04-14-07, 10:00 PM	O.K. This has probably been said before, but I'm tired and I don't feel like reading through the whole thread. So, that means that, ruleswise, all you have to do is put into your character background that you did something special for some druids, died in the process, and got reincarnated, and boom, any race, with a dragonmark, and you don't have to worry about mental penalties. Sure, any competant DM would beat you with your own PHB for trying to pull this, but it is entirely rules legal. As a DM I would be insulted if a player tried to pull that kind of rules lawyer crap on me. Wizards made a bad call on this one (not the first or the the last time), but the only way that this should be a problem is if both the DM and the Player are completely retarded. Seriously, the player that tried to slip that past the DM is a prime candidate for the "Hammergun Related Death of the Year" award. His biggest competition: The DM that let it slide. [/rant], The Count :dragon:
goblin_pride 04-14-07, 11:23 PM	As a DM I would be insulted if a player tried to pull that kind of rules lawyer crap on me. Wizards made a bad call on this one (not the first or the the last time), but the only way that this should be a problem is if both the DM and the Player are completely retarded. You mean the almighty FAQ might be wrong? Oh my god, that means the end of civilization as we know it. People will be forced to make their own calls on rules disputes like they have to in third world countries. This is horrible, horrible I tell you. Oh the humanity..... Sorry, had a bit of a moment. But I'm feeling much better now.
Edymnion 04-15-07, 04:21 PM	You mean the almighty FAQ might be wrong? Oh my god, that means the end of civilization as we know it. People will be forced to make their own calls on rules disputes like they have to in third world countries. This is horrible, horrible I tell you. Oh the humanity..... Sorry, had a bit of a moment. But I'm feeling much better now.No no no, the FAQ can never be wrong. Any seeming mistake is mearly where they all got together, carefully deliberated all possible rammifications of the change, and then intentionally made the change knowing full well what it means. The designers, and hence the FAQ, cannot be wrong. ;)
The White Sorcerer 04-15-07, 04:29 PM	You mean the almighty FAQ might be wrong? What does a DM allowing a character to start reincarnated have to do with the FAQ?
goblin_pride 04-15-07, 05:15 PM	No no no, the FAQ can never be wrong. Any seeming mistake is mearly where they all got together, carefully deliberated all possible rammifications of the change, and then intentionally made the change knowing full well what it means. The designers, and hence the FAQ, cannot be wrong. ;) Alright changeling, what did you do with the real Edy?
Edymnion 04-15-07, 06:26 PM	Alright changeling, what did you do with the real Edy?I don't know what you're talking about. By the way, did I tell you about this really cool session where my male changeling warshaper got pregnant? It was wicked cool!
goblin_pride 04-16-07, 02:57 AM	I don't know what you're talking about. By the way, did I tell you about this really cool session where my male changeling warshaper got pregnant? It was wicked cool! Not for the changeling.
Count Nerindil Van Seraph 04-16-07, 06:12 PM	I don't know what you're talking about. By the way, did I tell you about this really cool session where my male changeling warshaper got pregnant? It was wicked cool! Sweet Fluffy Jeebus! That is 31 flavors of wrong!
Edymnion 04-16-07, 07:16 PM	Sweet Fluffy Jeebus! That is 31 flavors of wrong!Uh oh, now you did it. You ragged on pregnant male changelings. The lynch mobs are going to come get you now. :D
Vharuck 04-18-07, 04:31 PM	Uh oh, now you did it. You ragged on pregnant male changelings. The lynch mobs are going to come get you now. :D That was a fun topic. It was interesting to hear people attempt to rationalize the mutation of sexual organs scientifically when the changeling's ability is magic. It's magic people. We call it that since we can't nor want to explain it.