Post/Author/DateTime	Post
bigsnarf 06-25-07, 09:12 AM	How much would a warforged cost during the Last War?
Mai_ariti 06-25-07, 09:47 AM	This is SICK. . .but I like it. . . Hmmmm. . .I'd say they wouldn't be just avaliable as in "hey generic NPC, how about selling me a Warforged?" Rather I think that they would be more elite requiring that you either be associated with an army that uses them or influential enough that you could force a Dragonmarked house to sell you one. That being neither here nor there, an Iron Golem costs 150,000 gp and they are mindless. I would say that for a incredibly low grade model Int 3-4 it would be only about 225,000 gp but for the best that exist, with PC classes and the like it could be extremely expensive. Perhaps for a Warforged Fighter 1, 500,000 gp? It wouldn't be easy or cheap because then everyone would have one. Perhaps you should compare them to the cost for a boat or a powerful magic item. . .in the Last War, that is what they were.
Thomar_of_Uointer 06-25-07, 09:57 AM	It's more likely that you would hire them off from a house, mercenary style. As characters, you would use the standard hireling rules. A level 1 warforged warrior costs 3 sp per day (plus the cost of repairs when you turn it back in), and it only gets more expensive beyond that. Probably making it 3 sp per level per day for a warforged warrior, and 1 gp per level per day for a warforged fighter.
bigsnarf 06-25-07, 10:38 AM	I wouldnt let a player "buy" one in a Last War setting, this is something more for a character background. Mr Killbot is mad because he was bought for X amount of gold, told to kill without even knowing why. I view warforged as tragic hero's of the Last War.:rant:
Steely_Dan 06-25-07, 11:25 AM	When I first saw the thread title, I thought as in "tawdry".
obrysii 06-25-07, 11:31 AM	Perhaps for a Warforged Fighter 1, 500,000 gp? That's so beyond over the top. If an Ironwyrm Golem costs 220,000gps ... a Warforged likely costs (once the Creation Forge is at full power and birthing them quickly) ~1000gps. A single Warforged Fighter 1 for the cost of two Ironwyrm Golems? Not a chance. A single Ironwyrm Golem can turn the tide of a battle; two would almost ensure victory against low-level footsoldiers. A single Warforged Fighter will likely die in the opening salvo.
bigsnarf 06-25-07, 12:04 PM	Do the creation forges make the the mithril, darkwood and other components for the warforged out of thin air, or do they need a supply. The cost alone for materials are not worth it. Dont get me wrong, I love the killbots, I think we need more info thats all.
Anguish2 06-25-07, 12:21 PM	According to tFoW, I believe warforged were in the realm of 5,000gp Mind you, that was in massive batches purchased (on credit) by nations. I don't know what would happen for any sort of private citizen to acquire one. Surely it'd be higher. If you had contacts and offered high-ranking Brellish officials 10,000gp for one, they might be willing, on the basis that they could turn your cash around and buy themselves a pair of replacements. Or... personally profit while simultaneously not selling something nonrenewable. "Yeah, Sire d'Cannith? That order of 1,000 warforged soldiers? Can you make that 1,001 please? Thanks."
Edymnion 06-25-07, 01:00 PM	Yeah, the info is in Forge of War. 10,000 gp a piece, if bought individually, but with discounts that get them down to around 5-6k each if you buy them in bulk. Somebody remind me to pick up a six pack on the way home. :D
InkBlot 06-25-07, 02:51 PM	I wonder if that's consistent with Keith Baker's estimation of their price. I remember he once stated that the cost of buying a warforged was about twice the cost of fielding a well equiped fighter. Of course you save money in the long run on food and healing, warforged never tire, and the number of warforged you can field isn't limited by the birthrate of your nation.
AAB 06-25-07, 04:31 PM	I wonder if that's consistent with Keith Baker's estimation of their price. I remember he once stated that the cost of buying a warforged was about twice the cost of fielding a well equiped fighter. Of course you save money in the long run on food and healing, warforged never tire, and the number of warforged you can field isn't limited by the birthrate of your nation. what would be a well-equipped fighter? 1650gp masterwork fullplate 170gp masterwork heavy steel shield 315gp masterwork longsword 2135gp total for a nation buying warforged in bulk i guess 5000gp per head wouldn't be that outrageous. i'd probably still prefer the well-equipped fighter in most situations, but....
Sphere 06-25-07, 05:26 PM	what would be a well-equipped fighter? 1650gp masterwork fullplate 170gp masterwork heavy steel shield 315gp masterwork longsword 2135gp total for a nation buying warforged in bulk i guess 5000gp per head wouldn't be that outrageous. i'd probably still prefer the well-equipped fighter in most situations, but.... Don't forget housing, food, and travel expenses too.
Wharin 06-25-07, 06:00 PM	And on top of all of that, there is also the spared expense of loss of sentient life. While you could put a price on human life, I suppose, their real value is infinitely more. Of course, once it was established that warforged do indeed have souls and are living, it threw that out of the window, but hey, that was only *after* the war.
bigsnarf 06-25-07, 06:28 PM	Yep, warforged are cheap, no supply train or camp followers, they have their own armor. But do they come out of the forge trained? If you dont have to train em then their good rite out the box, batteries included.:P
Sphere 06-25-07, 06:38 PM	They learn fast, it takes them a few months to learn what takes a human a few years.
itwasntme 06-25-07, 06:58 PM	That's so beyond over the top. If an Ironwyrm Golem costs 220,000gps ... a Warforged likely costs (once the Creation Forge is at full power and birthing them quickly) ~1000gps. A single Warforged Fighter 1 for the cost of two Ironwyrm Golems? Not a chance. A single Ironwyrm Golem can turn the tide of a battle; two would almost ensure victory against low-level footsoldiers. A single Warforged Fighter will likely die in the opening salvo. your forgetting about the fact that my warforge can be a wizard your irongolem cant ... my warforge can have tastics and be intelligent your irongolem cant ... my warforge can level up and use cool manuvers and your irongolem cant ... my level 1 warforge could have AC of 25 which is enough to say to all level 1 characters or monsters (Get that nat 20 to hit me ... forget the extra damage you just need it to hit me normoly) Not to mention that when an irongolem gets down to 0 hp its gone a warforge gets down to -100 hp ok its not working but lets cast enough repair spells on it to make it up to 1 HP yay its working again lets go Not to mention that during the Last War they where the elite commandos that said "You Evil people go away *B!tch slaps the evil monsters/army* Haha we win you lose!" so to get a lean mean kicking machine to join you during that time would mean your in the army with them or you have a very good reason to make someone in that army want to sell some part of there army to you and if your there nme then forget it they just say "Die Die Die!" And your dead or running away From what i get from the last war they where the Beefy mofos that ran around and couldnt realy be stoped only Slowed down ... kinda like Armys ya ok i stoped you from taking over this town ... but the next day you'll be back to fight us again ... damn that sucks even if we can stop you from taking it over again you'll just be back over and over again and theres way to many WarForge to run around and disintergrate The CR of a IronGolem is 13 i would rather be a level 13 WarForge the warforge could be a wizard could be a fighter could be w/e ya the irongolem is beefy but just consider this WarForge -100 HP is brought back to life! YAY IronGolem -100HP Dead ... er someone want to spend the XP and Gold to make them? considering WarForges where being made like dirt back with there great founderays true the GREAT Arterfact was makeing them cheap like dirt but there still realy powerfull and you have to pay for the cost to let the guy let you use his Great Arterfact createing item make one for you so how much is Renting the greatest Arterfact of the time is going to cost? figure out how much renting the most powerfull arterfact item will cost and you have a good idea of how much there worth during the last war
obrysii 06-25-07, 10:18 PM	your forgetting about the fact that my warforge can be a wizard your irongolem cant ... My ironwyrm golem is completely immune to those spells, except Cold spells. my warforge can have tastics and be intelligent your irongolem cant ... It's as intelligent as I am: I control it myself. my warforge can level up and use cool manuvers and your irongolem cant ... My ironwyrm golem has a 24d10 breath weapon and can use that to heal itself. my level 1 warforge could have AC of 25 which is enough to say to all level 1 characters or monsters (Get that nat 20 to hit me ... forget the extra damage you just need it to hit me normoly) My ironwyrm golem has AC in the 40s. Not to mention that when an irongolem gets down to 0 hp its gone a warforge gets down to -100 hp ok its not working but lets cast enough repair spells on it to make it up to 1 HP yay its working again lets go No different from a golem. Not to mention that during the Last War they where the elite commandos that said "You Evil people go away *B!tch slaps the evil monsters/army* Haha we win you lose!" so to get a lean mean kicking machine to join you during that time would mean your in the army with them or you have a very good reason to make someone in that army want to sell some part of there army to you and if your there nme then forget it they just say "Die Die Die!" And your dead or running away From what i get from the last war they where the Beefy mofos that ran around and couldnt realy be stoped only Slowed down ... kinda like Armys ya ok i stoped you from taking over this town ... but the next day you'll be back to fight us again ... damn that sucks even if we can stop you from taking it over again you'll just be back over and over again and theres way to many WarForge to run around and disintergrate This is largely incoherent. I can't reply to something like that. The CR of a IronGolem is 13 i would rather be a level 13 WarForge Ironwyrm Golems are CR 18 IIRC, and are likely underrated for their CR, given their previous mentioned true spell immunity. the warforge could be a wizard could be a fighter could be w/e ya the irongolem is beefy but just consider this WarForge -100 HP is brought back to life! YAY IronGolem -100HP Dead ... er someone want to spend the XP and Gold to make them? considering WarForges where being made like dirt back with there great founderays This is no different from an ordinary golem. I really don't know what you're talking about. A Warforged is dead-dead at -10hp, however. As well: a friendly suggestion: please take active participation in your writing process ... the absolute disregard for spelling or grammar is rather ... distracting from any point you might have had.
bigsnarf 06-25-07, 10:38 PM	Yep, warforged are dead at -10, and the golem death thing is ultra cooool. But can it break-dance or do the robot like a warforged? NOOOOOOOO!!! But I wouldnt send warforged at a golem no matter how cheap they are.:hoppingma
The White Sorcerer 06-26-07, 03:21 AM	i'd probably still prefer the well-equipped fighter in most situations, but.... Except when he gets hungry, sleepy, sick, etc.
maollelujah 06-26-07, 08:23 AM	Yep, warforged are cheap, no supply train or camp followers, they have their own armor... Until they are captured and switch sides. I imagine that is how Karrnath got a hold on many of its warforged (captured from Cyre).
Edymnion 06-26-07, 08:36 AM	Until they are captured and switch sides. I imagine that is how Karrnath got a hold on many of its warforged (captured from Cyre).That or it, you know, bought them like everybody else. Karnnath has plenty of money, just no FOOD. Thats why they turned to undead in the first place.
bigsnarf 06-26-07, 09:26 AM	Karrnath warforged would be rare you think, maybe special units? Undead are alot cheaper to creat, but they are as dumb as a rock for the soldier types.:D
darkdragonk 06-26-07, 10:18 AM	There is a big disusion on this in the Ebberon General boards by the name of Warforged cost or somthing of the nature. It is acually one of the best debates I've seen on these boards for a while and it has'nt degraded to a flamewar yet. (at least, not to my knowledge)
The White Sorcerer 06-26-07, 10:38 AM	Until they are captured and switch sides. That applies to normal soldiers as well. Also, how does being captured automatically mean switching sides?
Cifer 06-26-07, 02:41 PM	Also, how does being captured automatically mean switching sides? For some reasons, warforged are not exceedingly loyal and switch sides quite easily when they are rendered inert and taken "prisoner". The prices have already been mentioned: About 5k when ordered in bulk, which makes up somewhere between 6 and 10 years of employing, feeding, housing and marching a normal (as in: not equipped with magic items, special materials or even masterwork stuff) human soldier - and that's the pure soldier we're talking about, not the economy that should be behind him and wants to get paid too. Oh, and Warforged usually start their career with two levels of fighter while normal people who have fought a while in the war and retire are often described as second level warriors.
Hellcow 06-26-07, 06:47 PM	For some reasons, warforged are not exceedingly loyal and switch sides quite easily when they are rendered inert and taken "prisoner". This is from Races of Eberron, and it's something I seriously disagree with. In my opinion - and certainly my presentation in other sources and my novels - the warforged understood war to be their purpose. It was the world they understood. While they might have little loyalty to the nationthey fought for, many would develop an attachment to the people they served with, which would end up serving the same purpose. To me, the idea that the moment you capture a warforged it suddenly says "Shucks, guess I'm working for you!" turns to the robot "I am a machine with no inherent loyalty or emotion" metaphor. In my opinion, the warforged initially serves because that's its function and what it enjoys; after a few years, it serves because it is familiar with the people it is working with and the people it is fighting. Aside from emotional attachments - both personal and "I've been saved a dozen times by Cyran artificers, and almost killed a dozen times by Karrns" - there's simple habit. I know the Cyran drills and commands. I recognize Cyran officers. It's what I'm used to. Fighting Karrnathis is what I've come to see as my purpose. Suddenly dropping that and fighting FOR Karrnath is going to be strange - all the patterns have changed. Certainly, a warforged COULD switch sides, especially if you got the humans it fought alongside to switch sides as well. On the other hand, if you killed all the humans it serve with, it could feel the same anger towards you that a human would - those were its fellow soldiers! A warforged who was regularly mistreated by its flesh-and-blood comrades might also try its luck with the other side. So sure, it can happen, just as it can happen with humans. But I have SERIOUS issues with the "All warforged switched sides all the time" statement from RoE, and you'll never see me use that in anything I write. As to the price of warforged, this has also been discussed extensively on this thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=869871). In my mind, the typical warforged is a 2nd-level fighter with the Adamantine Body feat. Aside from the fact that a 2nd-level fighter is considerably tougher than the standard soldier (1st-level warrior or commoner) of the Five Nations, don't forget that Adamantine Body isn't just the same as full plate - it's full plate with DR 2, the bonus one gets from medium adamantine armor... which raises the cost of armor by 10,000 gp. So even at 10,000 gp (the suggested per unit price, as opposed to 5-6K en masse), it's still something of a savings.
maollelujah 06-27-07, 09:26 AM	In my opinion, the warforged initially serves because that's its function and what it enjoys; after a few years, it serves because it is familiar with the people it is working with and the people it is fighting. Personally I don't see the problem. Warforged are created to fight and only fight on one side and not the other because they are bought by that side. They have no self-interest in who they are fighting for, except at the lowest level, their comrades. Most of their comrades are bound to be other Warforged. They might have some contact with fleshies, but in most cases it is only a NCO or low-level officer, as I don't see there being many fleshie-warforged intergrated units where each warforged bunks with a fleshie. In most cases these NCOs and Officers probably don't see the warforged as any better than 'weapons', good weapons I'll grant you, but still just weapons. And most likely given the most dangerous tasks. If they wouldn't switch sides after capture, then I can't see any reason why enemy inert warforged wouldn't just be destroyed on the spot.
The Dreaming Duck 06-27-07, 12:28 PM	Teach me to use the wrong computer.
Hellcow 06-27-07, 12:33 PM	If they wouldn't switch sides after capture, then I can't see any reason why enemy inert warforged wouldn't just be destroyed on the spot. I’d expect most TO be destroyed on the spot… if you have the time to do it. Certainly after a battle. The point is, do you have that time? In the midst of battle, with people charging at you, shooting at you, are you really going to stop to take the extra round or two required to hit that adamantine armored warforged a few more times (remember, he’s got DR and a chance to resist critical hits, so even a coup de grace may not do it) just to make absolutely sure he’s not coming back? It’s the exact same principle as a human soldier. You shoot the guy. He falls down bleeding. There’s a chance he’s going to stabilize, and that if his side wins the battle, they will recover his body and heal him. Do you take the time to shoot him again, or do you move on, reasoning that whatever the situation is he’s no longer a threat – and that there will always be time to eliminate the wounded after your victory? The point then is that warforged DO always stabilize, so they have a better chance to be recovered… but you still only recover them if you can win the battle. But yes, I consider it the same principle as finding a wounded human soldier. There’s a chance he’ll switch to your side. Do you take him as a prisoner? Or just kill him? Warforged are created to fight and only fight on one side and not the other because they are bought by that side. They have no self-interest in who they are fighting for, except at the lowest level, their comrades. And that’s where we differ in opinion. In The Dreaming Dark, Pierce recalls a long guerrilla campaign against the Valenar. For much of this, he’s essentially fighting on his own. If he truly didn’t care, why not desert on the spot, and just fight anything that he runs across? To me the issue is having a purpose. He doesn’t love Cyre the way a child born in it does. He doesn’t feel personal loyalty to the Queen of Cyre. But fighting for Cyre is his identity. It’s how he measures his self-worth and his success. He doesn’t just want to kill people, he wants to fulfill his purpose. And over his years of service, his purpose has become fixed in his mind: defend Cyre. If warforged are so unreliable that they’d switch sides at the drop of a hat, I can’t see them being created or purchased in large numbers. After a few large-scale defections, no one would trust them. One of the greatest advantages of the warforged is that the lack of need for food or sleep allows them to work in enemy territory. But if they’ll just switch sides the moment they encounter the enemy? You’ll NEVER let them out of your sight. To me, the point is that warforged have emotion. Warforged who are mistreated by their human comrades are certainly likely to switch sides, just as a human would in the same circumstances. Many of the warforged who work for the Lord of Blades are ‘forged who feel abused by humans. But if you capture one of THEM, they won’t suddenly start working for YOU – their loyalty to the Lord of Blades is strong, just as they were once dedicated to their sides in war. But warforged who were treated well and took pride in their work would have loyalty to that purpose, if not necessarily to the ruler of the country. Their identity is based ON that function – it’s more than a simple desire to kill. Anyhow, I won’t argue the point further. Clearly we don’t see eye to eye. But in my opinion – and whatever I write – warforged can have dedication and loyalty to a purpose, whether it’s a religion, a messianic leader, a comrade, or a national cause. Their loyalty may be very different from that of a human, but it can be just as strong or even stronger, precisely because they have nothing else. The human has to worry about his family. He can be distracted with promises of pleasure. For the warforged, the battle is his life. If he has devoted the last ten years to battling you, built his identity around “fighting Karrns”, he won’t suddenly flip that into “helping Karrns and fighting Cyrans” – unless he’s been pushed into it by mistreatment on behalf of the people he’s been fighting to defend. They might have some contact with fleshies, but in most cases it is only a NCO or low-level officer, as I don't see there being many fleshie-warforged intergrated units where each warforged bunks with a fleshie. Again, we’re on completely different pages. In my opinion warforged were frequently integrated into “fleshie” units. Obviously they wouldn’t bunk with humans, because they wouldn’t bunk at all. Which is precisely the point. A squad of warforged provide a unit with tireless sentries who can guard the force all night. If they’re trained in Craft, they can work on equipment maintenance all night. As noted in the other thread, adamantine warforged make great shock troops: I don’t need an entire ARMY of them, but a squad of adamantine warforged with greatswords will make great pikebreakers to clear the path for my flesh-and-blood soldiers. Given your opinion that warforged can be easily convinced to switch sides, I’d think you of all people would see the value of NOT fielding entire armies of warforged, but rather using them as elite forces to supplement human armies. Far from a one-to-one “Human bunks with warforged” situation, I’d think you’d see a small unit of warforged within a largely human force. And yes, they WOULD be given the most dangerous tasks. What determines their loyalty is whether the other soldiers appreciate them for this or make them feel like worthless dirt. Do they feel like a valued part of the team? If *I* was in a unit and the adamantine warforged was going to be the one charging in first and clearing the path for me, I'd certainly cheer him on, not say "Get out there and die for me, scum." Where you would see entire forces of warforged would be for long-distance operations with minimal supplies. But again, that’s only really possible if you can trust your warforged to operate behind enemy lines; if not, you’re just sending the enemy a very expensive gift-wrapped package. Anyhow, we've got different opinions, and that's fine. I don't have time to argue, so I'll leave it here (and try to resist the urge to post again!).
bigsnarf 06-27-07, 12:54 PM	:drool: :drool: Warforged also make great sappers, working around the clock to dig tunnels under walls. Also since they dont breath you can use them in "beach landings". Just drop them off a mile from the beach and they can just walk up on the enemy. Heck, every one should play warforged, they rule!
maollelujah 06-27-07, 02:30 PM	If warforged are so unreliable that they’d switch sides at the drop of a hat, I can’t see them being created or purchased in large numbers. After a few large-scale defections, no one would trust them. One of the greatest advantages of the warforged is that the lack of need for food or sleep allows them to work in enemy territory. But if they’ll just switch sides the moment they encounter the enemy? You’ll NEVER let them out of your sight. I don't advocate that warforged are unreliable, nor natural traitors. I agree they have loyalty and they don't switch sides out of the blue. But I do think they would change sides after being captured, because 'fighting' is the thing they know about. To me, the point is that warforged have emotion. Of course they have emotion, but they aren't human, and they don't have much life experience outside the war (until recently). They are creatures built for war and trained for war with only manufactured ties to whoever their fighting for. I imagine it isn't the fighting for Cyre that drives them, but the fighting itself. It is what defines them. I essentially see them more mercenary in their outlook. Not in the sense they will fight at the highest bidder, nor that for a little money they will give up the keys to the castle they are guarding. Rather I see them not suceptible to bribes and would fight to the death rather than give up the castle. But once inert and revived, I think the desire to have a purpose, leads them to 'fight for Karrnath'. And over his years of service, his purpose has become fixed in his mind: defend Cyre. I do agree with you on this point. Older warforged might start to align strongly with one country or another, and might not switch sides and if revived they might escape back to Cyre. But as most Warforged are probably younger than older, I don't think these would be the majority. If *I* was in a unit and the adamantine warforged was going to be the one charging in first and clearing the path for me, I'd certainly cheer him on, not say "Get out there and die for me, scum." You might cheer for him, but that doesn't mean you don't see them as equals. Most people I imagine see warforged as something less, but better to have them on our side than theirs.
Hellcow 06-27-07, 03:08 PM	You might cheer for him, but that doesn't mean you don't see them as equals. Most people I imagine see warforged as something less, but better to have them on our side than theirs. Oh, inner perception is another matter entirely. And do I want him around AFTER the war? Also a very different question. But if I'm a rank and file soldier and he's breaking the line for me? AND if he could easily break my neck (which is why he's breaking the line for me)? I'm not going to go out of my way to be a jerk to him. I'm not going to be his best friend, invite him to join me for dinner (he doesn't eat, anyway), or anything like that. You're right, I think of him as a weapon. It's like the company tank. But just look at the way units DO get attached to things like tanks and airplanes. I may want to stencil the company emblem on the warforged, get an image of the unit gathered around the warforged, and so on. I may not think of him as a PERSON - but he is a weapon, and he's the weapon that allowed us to break through the enemy lines at Gorlan Bridge. For this reason, I actually tend to think warforged would be treated better than, for example, goblinoid mercenaries. With warforged, the soldier has no preconceptions and is going to be more inclined to think of them as "things". You may not think of the arbalest as an equal, but are you going to spend a lot of time insulting it? With things like goblins, you DO run into racial tensions running back before the founding of Galifar and anger over Darguun. Cyre may have continued to employ small bands of Valenar after they claimed their kingdom, but you can bet most Cyran soldiers didn't like working with the elves. Warforged are essentially neutral; you may not think of them as equals. You may not want them around when you DON'T have a need for an arbalest. But you don't have a history of conflict with constructs or anything like that; they're soldiers, they're GOOD soldiers, and they're fighting for your side. They are creatures built for war and trained for war with only manufactured ties to whoever their fighting for. I imagine it isn't the fighting for Cyre that drives them, but the fighting itself. It is what defines them. Whereas by the warforged dragonshard, the point is that what happens in their formative years is very important. The first year of the warforged's life sets its outlook. The thing about mercenaries is that they fight for a reason: usually gold. The warforged DIDN'T seek gold. Nor did warforged operating without human supervision decie to just go rogue and kill whatever they could find. It's in battle that they find satisfaction - but they still want a context and sense of purpose. "I am fighting to defend these good people from these bad people." When captured by the bad people, they still think of their purpose as "Fight these bad people." Now, if they really haven't had enough time to identify with their side in war, or if the people employing them have given clear cause to be thought of AS the bad people, that's fine. But as I said, the warforged have emotion and human intelligence. They aren't children. They KNOW you're their enemy... and fighting the enemy is what they do. Again, it may be religion, faith in a messianic figure like the Lord of Blades, attachment to comrades in arms, anger towards a long-time enemy, or something else. But I believe that warforged seek a context for battle, to feel that they have a reason to fight. A human may just see the warforged as an arbalest, but it's not just an arbalest, a weapon to be handed from one master to the next. It has feelings and a desire for its life to have meaning. It's because the war is over and that meaning has been stripped away that many have turned to the Lord of Blades. Now what I could certainly see is somewone trained in the psychology of warforged who's purpose IS to turn captured warforged, especially "young" warforged - playing on that emotional inexperience and redirecting it. But my point is that would take work. It would probably be easier than brainwashing a human soldier, but it would still BE brainwashing; you don't just flip a switch and suddenly he's working for you. But given the ease of capturing wounded warforged, I think most nations would have "warforged brainwashers" - quite probably mercenary heirs of House Cannith. Again, I feel this is born out in the modern day. Does the warforged working for the Lord of Blades suddenly start working for you if you capture him? If your warforged PC is captured by the bad guys, do you suddenly turn on the rest of the party? I can easily see humans EXPECTING that sort of behavior from warforged, precisely because they think of them as weapons. But the point to me is that while battle what makes the warforged feel alive, they need a sense of purpose driving them - otherwise, you'd have seen constant desertion and insubordination. But here I am posting again, when i don't have time and have already agreed to disagree. *sigh*.
Hellcow 06-27-07, 05:02 PM	I don't advocate that warforged are unreliable, nor natural traitors. I agree they have loyalty and they don't switch sides out of the blue. But I do think they would change sides after being captured, because 'fighting' is the thing they know about... once inert and revived, I think the desire to have a purpose, leads them to 'fight for Karrnath'. Reading your post again, I see where you're coming from, Maollelujah. Clearly we both agree on major points, notably the warforged desire to have a sense of purpose. As I said, under the right circumstances I can see them switching sides. So the issue is, when the warforged is captured and revived, does he feel it is completely impossible for him to continue with his original purpose? Does the new suggested purpose directly clash with the old? For example, if both Thrane and Cyre are fighting Karrnath, I see it being far easier for the Thrane brainwasher to convince the captured Cyran warforged to fight on his side... because the warforged is still fighting Karrns. He *doesn't* necessarily understand or care about the country - but he's come to recognize his purpose as "fighting Karrns". Thus, if he's still fighting Karrns, but with different allies, that's going to make far more sense than suddenly helping KARRNS fight Cyrans, something that clashes with the image he's built of himself. It doesn't even matter to him that they are Karrns, in the sense of "citizens of the country of Karrnath"; I see it as more "The people in black and red with the wolf logo". Essentially, good guys and bad guys. The warforged wants to believe he's fighting for the good guys against the bad guys. If he's captured by a third party who says "Help US fight the bad guys", that can work. But if he's captured BY the bad guys and asked to fight the good guys, I believe that he'll resist - that it goes against the self-image he's created for himself. I'd expect him to try to escape and/or fight his captors... because they are those bad guys he's dedicated his life to fighting. As I said, I don't see the warforged losing sight of their purpose immediately simply because they are captured. Again, will the servant of the Lord of Blades abandon his cause so easily? Will a player character? If he perceives his cause to be lost (for example, Cyre has been utterly destroyed) or sees the new goal as compatible with the old, maybe. If he's been mistreated or abused by his former allies, sure. But as long as he still can carry out his original purpose and still believes it to be a worthy cause, I'd expect him to fight for it. But again, we overlap on many points. I understand what you're saying, it's just not the way I run 'em. You may be able to convince a warforged to switch sides, but I don't see it as a trivial thing.
gensuke626 06-27-07, 09:11 PM	Somehow I just got an episode from Star Trek: Voyager stuck in my head. Nemesis, the episode where a group of humanoids brainwash Chakotay into fighting their war for them. I can see a small group of Karrnathi agents (Disguised as a Cyran Recon unit) reviving a warforged and fooling the warforged into believeing that there is a force of Karranathi troops disguising themselves as a Cyran Infantry unit, just waiting for the most oppertune time to strike at the heart of the Cyran army and destroy it from the inside out. They'd march and 'Try' to regroup with the main army, but less than a day before what is supposed to be the decisive battle the unit is 'Ambushed' by Karrnathi skirmishers and the rest of the unit dies, the leader of the unit entrusting the Warforged to "Destroy the Traitorous unit." and telling him "There isn't enough time to inform the general. Only you can complete the mission." with his 'dying breath'.
ArcTan 06-28-07, 12:06 AM	what would be a well-equipped fighter? 1650gp masterwork fullplate 170gp masterwork heavy steel shield 315gp masterwork longsword 2135gp total for a nation buying warforged in bulk i guess 5000gp per head wouldn't be that outrageous. i'd probably still prefer the well-equipped fighter in most situations, but.... When you get the Warforged, you also get two Fighter levels and an unswerving and unthinking loyalty. Plus you never pay for his food or wages or entertainment or anything except the most minimal shelter. A Human Fighter 2, by contrast, is going to be a super-elite among elites who's going to demand the best grub, cost a ton of money to train, lay claim to part of the spoils of battle, etc. The price then becomes comparable, especially over time. (By contrast an ordinary crappy Commoner 1 conscript is no cost at all next to a Warforged, but will also fall like dry grass to a scythe when faced with Warforged troops, so hey.)
ArcTan 06-28-07, 12:09 AM	Yep, warforged are cheap, no supply train or camp followers, they have their own armor. But do they come out of the forge trained? If you dont have to train em then their good rite out the box, batteries included.:P They don't come out of the Forge trained, but House Cannith trained them as a group as standard operating procedure. Letting Warforged wander around untrained would be way too much of liability to ever let happen. They *are* a lot easier to train than humans, since they're highly psychologically malleable in the first few weeks after their forging.
ArcTan 06-28-07, 12:17 AM	your forgetting about the fact that my warforge can be a wizard your irongolem cant ... Almost no Warforged *were* Wizards. It wasn't what they were intended to do and few probably had the natural aptitude for it. (They did have to be trained -- they didn't come fresh out of the forge knowing everything.) The vast majority of Warforged on the block to be sold were Fighter 2, which is impressive next to a Human Warrior 1 soldier, but nothing at all even *close* to an Iron Golem's CR 13. A Warforged level 15 Fighter or level 16 Wizard would certainly be more powerful than an Iron Golem, sure. A Warforged could only get this way the same way a Human could -- by being an exceptional individual with a long, full life of adventuring who levelled up by gaining XP over time. I.e. not a Warforged you could buy; any Warforged you came across with this degree of power would be a PC or something, and not for sale. my warforge can have tastics and be intelligent your irongolem cant ... This would make a Warforged Fighter 2 better than a CR 2 mindless Construct. *Not* better than the CR 13 Iron Golem with its true Construct traits, DR, and *magic immunity*, for cripes' sake. my warforge can level up and use cool manuvers and your irongolem cant ... ...Which takes a huge amount of time and effort gaining XP on the part of the Warforged, and most Warforged will never do. my level 1 warforge could have AC of 25 which is enough to say to all level 1 characters or monsters (Get that nat 20 to hit me ... forget the extra damage you just need it to hit me normoly) Doesn't matter if the only person who could *afford* that Warforged would be an Epic-level character, which is what you're setting it up to be with your ridiculous purchase price. Not to mention that when an irongolem gets down to 0 hp its gone a warforge gets down to -100 hp ok its not working but lets cast enough repair spells on it to make it up to 1 HP yay its working again lets go Untrue. A Warforged at -10 HP is simply dead, and cannot be revived through simple repair/healing magic any more than a Human corpse can. You have to cast a resurrection spell on it. The fact that you can is handy, sure, but hardly makes them indestructible -- resurrection in Eberron is expensive and rare. Not to mention that during the Last War they where the elite commandos that said "You Evil people go away *B!tch slaps the evil monsters/army* Haha we win you lose!" so to get a lean mean kicking machine to join you during that time would mean your in the army with them or you have a very good reason to make someone in that army want to sell some part of there army to you Right, but the price has to be within a reasonable range that an army could *afford*. and if your there nme then forget it they just say "Die Die Die!" And your dead or running away What are you, like, twelve? From what i get from the last war they where the Beefy mofos that ran around and couldnt realy be stoped only Slowed down ... kinda like Armys ya ok i stoped you from taking over this town ... but the next day you'll be back to fight us again ... damn that sucks even if we can stop you from taking it over again you'll just be back over and over again and theres way to many WarForge to run around and disintergrate There wouldn't be "way too many" if they cost over 100,000 GP to make. There'd be hardly any. The CR of a IronGolem is 13 i would rather be a level 13 WarForge the warforge could be a wizard could be a fighter could be w/e Sure, but you can't buy a level 13 Warforged. It's like how you can't hire a level 15 Hobgoblin mercenary, even though you can hire Hobgoblins in general. Anything at level 11 or above in D&D is considered "legendary". A Warforged that powerful would be a *legend*, well known and well respected among the population at large. Warforged don't just come out of the mold like that, and no more than a few of such legends exist. ya the irongolem is beefy but just consider this WarForge -100 HP is brought back to life! YAY Only if you cast raise dead, which is not easy and not cheap. IronGolem -100HP Dead ... er someone want to spend the XP and Gold to make them? considering WarForges where being made like dirt back with there great founderays[/quote] If they were "made like dirt" they wouldn't cost 100,000 GP. Do you not understand what supply and demand is? true the GREAT Arterfact was makeing them cheap like dirt but there still realy powerfull and you have to pay for the cost to let the guy let you use his Great Arterfact createing item make one for you so how much is Renting the greatest Arterfact of the time is going to cost? figure out how much renting the most powerfull arterfact item will cost and you have a good idea of how much there worth during the last war You're not "renting" the Creation Forge at all, any more than I'm "renting" Toyota's auto factories when I buy a Toyota. You're buying a finished product. The cost of the finished product of the Creation Forge is, in fact, about 5,000-6,000 GP.
bigsnarf 06-28-07, 09:44 AM	There seems to be a bit of conflict between warforged lovers and wizards with their beloved golems. A warforged can be a PC where a golen cant. A golem is a pure monster in mellee, going bezerk, tons of immunities, and a buff DR. One on one a golem vs a warforged I will put money on a golem, unless its a group of warforged adventurers, then they would stand a chance.
AntiSean 06-28-07, 02:23 PM	They sure are! They rarely, if ever, order any food or beverage, and they're lousy tippers, too.
Need_A_Life 06-30-07, 01:24 PM	The price is well-established in Forge of War as being 10,000gp for a single unit or 60,000-72,000gp for a set of 12. That being said, the golems would usually not be an option. You have to remember that each golem requires a caster of the appropiate level (usually minimum level 10, which is legendary in Eberron) whereas the warforged don't require anything more than a d'Cannith smuck, who needs only a while with his Least Mark of Making and a Creation Forge. Of course, Dragon #341 introduced a bunch of weaker golems varying in required caster level from CL 5 to CL 7, most of whom are many times more effective than a warforged... But guess what? House Cannith didn't care about Paper Golems or Wax Golems, nor did they take Junk Golems seriously because they could (thanks to pure copy-catting) simply push the proverbial button and a twelve-pack would emerge from the forge. --- As for warforged loyalty, it'd depend on the circumstances. As Mr. Keith Baker said, Pierce from the Dreaming Dark series would not 'betray' Cyre, any more than a human in the same position would. I am, however, playing a warforged who is a mere 1 year of age (note: this makes him a creation made after the Treaty of Thronehold) and he only has good relations with two of the 7 people in the party, so if they fall he's far more likely to turn to the other side, hoping for that experience to be better.
Zardnaar 07-01-07, 07:00 AM	At 10000 gp each they're not worth it and I doubt the Eberron econimy could support them being massed produced. That price may be based on a lvl 2 Warforged with the Adamantine body feat but 10000gp is alot of money for the average noble and would be enough to probably outfit around 100 humans for a years service. It makes no sense another words. Not to many people will have Full Plate armor due the expense of it. A cheap warforged at 5-6K (mass produced X12) is 3-4 times the price of Full PLate armor. You could order 200 odd at 5000gp each or build a 1 million gp castle. Go figure.
Omnicronwarlord 07-01-07, 07:17 AM	At 10000 gp each they're not worth it and I doubt the Eberron econimy could support them being massed produced. That price may be based on a lvl 2 Warforged with the Adamantine body feat but 10000gp is alot of money for the average noble and would be enough to probably outfit around 100 humans for a years service. It makes no sense another words. Not to many people will have Full Plate armor due the expense of it. A cheap warforged at 5-6K (mass produced X12) is 3-4 times the price of Full PLate armor. You could order 200 odd at 5000gp each or build a 1 million gp castle. Go figure. Yes, but 1: Warforged are permanent (or atleast un til the treaty of thronehold, but no one knew that would happen). You don't have to pay them over again in a year. 2. Those 100 people you mentioned are all commoners, lvl 1 (maybe warriors level 1 at the most). There armor class couldn't be much higher than 15. The one warforged could take down twenty of them probably. 3. Warforged don't have to be fed, and don't have off days, and never sleep (awsome for a guard).
Zardnaar 07-01-07, 08:18 AM	But 5-10K is alot of money in D&D terms. I'm not saying warforged are cheap but thats to much money. I'm sure you could find an NPC who is level 2-4 for alot cheaper than that. You could buy 1 warforged or 3-5 +1 bows or around 6-10 +1 shields for example. Even a lvl 2 warforged w/adamantine armor won't last that long on the field of battle. It doesn't make any sense when a cheap level 1 warrior oin a warhorse is alot cheaper and has a reasonable chance at killing the warforged. Go find a human fighter who is level 2 and give him half that number in expensive equipment and see who wins the fight. What wil be more cost effective? In an extreme long run the warforged might be cheaper but not many people will have that amount of cash to purchase them. Its the same reason most people get a mortgage to buy a house. Its cheaper to buy the house but not many people have the cash to do so. In fact at 5-10K each warforged is probably more expensive than the average D&D house. A noble with 1000gp income a year which is alot of money in D&D standards (20gp/week) has to use 5-10 years income to buy one.
Neutronium_Dragon 07-01-07, 11:40 AM	The Forge of War sort of contradicts itself. It prices a shield guardian at 10,000 GP, and says that a batch of a dozen warforged can be created for the same price, which would put their individual cost in the area of 800 GP. It then suggests 5,000 GP for an individual warforged. So it would seem that if you order in bulk, they come out many times cheaper than getting one made individually. At around 800 GP each for the batch of a dozen, they're definitely cheaper than maintaining heavy infantry. Even if you assume that Cannith put a surcharge on that rather than selling at cost, that's still a pretty good price.
Ozymandias V. 07-01-07, 12:33 PM	...Shield Guardians cost 120,000gp to purchase. <_<
The Dreaming Duck 07-01-07, 01:30 PM	I'm sure you could find an NPC who is level 2-4 for alot cheaper than that. Really? Where? This is Eberron; most NPCs use NPC classes. Sure, you could get Valenar, but we've never seen a price listed for them, and I'm guessing they aren't cheap. You have to CONTINUE to pay for them every pay period, as opposed to the one-shot you pay and it's over for the warforged. And odds are you don't get one Valenar, you get a warband, and if you're buying in bulk the warforged is less than 10,000 gp. You could buy 1 warforged or 3-5 +1 bows or around 6-10 +1 shields for example. What difference does this make? Give your 1st level warrior a +1 bow and +1 shield. All it's going to do is make his BAB the same as my 2nd level warforged (assuming we have equal strength, which since I have the elite array, isn't a safe assumption), and even with the shield odds are he doesn't match my adamantine AC. Plus he's got lower hit points and no DR, so he'll wield those weapons for a shorter time before dying. Even a lvl 2 warforged w/adamantine armor won't last that long on the field of battle. It doesn't make any sense when a cheap level 1 warrior oin a warhorse is alot cheaper and has a reasonable chance at killing the warforged. Can you do the math on this? I've given my math on the warforged on the battlefield in an earlier post. I'm not seeing the 1st-level warrior - who can easily be killed by the warforged in a single attack - as posing a tremendous threat to the adamantine, elite array warforged. I certainly wouldn't give him "a reasonable chance". Even if he gets a critical hit, the warforged has a one in four chance of negating it. Go find a human fighter who is level 2 and give him half that number in expensive equipment and see who wins the fight. What wil be more cost effective? But the point is that there aren't many level 2 human fighters to find. If you can FIND the human fighter, good for you. Do it. The whole point of the warforged is that you can get all the fighter-2s you can afford - something that simply isn't available in the wider world. Though bear in mind that you're going to have to continue paying the human fighter over time; once you pay for the warforged, you own him. A noble with 1000gp income a year which is alot of money in D&D standards (20gp/week) has to use 5-10 years income to buy one. Which is exactly why he doesn't do it. He provides his king with a force of 100 commoner-1 levies, 20 warrior-1 militiamen, and maybe a warrior 2-3 knight commander, the best soldier in his demesne. That's his contribution to the national army. He doesn't pay anything (well, aside from the fees of outfitting these troops). If the KING, with access to the treasury of the nation, decides to spend a million gold pieces on warforged, he can probably do it. Just like today - how many private individuals can afford to buy a cruise missile? Yet how many cruise missiles does the army have? I doubt anyone just wandered over to the Cannith forgehold to pick out a new '94 warforged for the family. But nations have gold, and likely also took out vast loans from House Kundarak. And buying a warforged was seen as buying a weapon: a tool that would be the property of your nation indefinitely, unlike paying for a mercenary who provides temporary service and whose loyalty is questionable (as seen in Darguun and Valenar). And just as proof of wealth, Kaius himself is equipped with gear totaling around 110,000 gp in value, and let's face it, he doesn't see battle very often. We're not dealing with nobles who make 1,000 gp a year; thats where are peasants come from. It's the king who's going to pay for our warforged. And as has been noted, it's already LESS expensive than a suit of adamantine full plate with DR 2, not even accounting for someone to wear it - less than half the cost when you add the volume discount... and since we're talking about nations buying armies, not individuals purchasing single warforged, that volume discount needs to be considered. So while I disliked it at first, I think it actually makes sense.
bigsnarf 07-01-07, 02:39 PM	:eek: Also with the forged you pay for loyal warriors with the personality of a onion(at first) and they only think about killing and learning to kill better. They have no family or friends so their mind is on the job at hand. You can tell a forged to stay on watch at a watch tower and thats his job for the next year or so and he does it with out moving a inch, a humaniod could'nt.
bigsnarf 07-01-07, 02:40 PM	WARFORGED'S RULE!!!
Ozymandias V. 07-01-07, 04:05 PM	The plural of warforged is warforged, dude. Like deer or moose.
Zardnaar 07-01-07, 04:16 PM	I still think people are over estimating the price of supporting troops. Logistics weren't that important until recent times. An army would live of the land likely by plundeirng the nearest peasants farm. Also warforged get a bilk discount yet why can't the king get a bulk discount on food for the troops? Hell the King can probably just order his subjects to turn over more food via tax ad get away with it- he is the king after all. After 100+ years of war it wouild be logical to assume nations could turn out trained fighters. Maybe only level 1 but still. Warriors represent militia, tribesmen, levies etc. A professional soldier is likely a fighter an due to the last war there should be alot of them floating around. It shouldn't take that long to train up a level 1 fighter- 6 weeks maybe in some sort of boot camp. Warforged should be expensive but 5-10K is to much. You could buy 200-400 of them or a 1 million gp castle, and 1 million on hiring troops/defeneces/spellcasters to defend it. Even a King shouldn't have several million gp lying around to spend on Warforged. That 200-400 unit could also be 20 odd skyships and makes a Knight look cheap. Have a look in the DMG and findout what level of NPC has 5000-10000gp worth of equipment. Theres a reason why Adamantine Full plate isn't given to every 2nd level fighter- its to fricken dear. Each warforged is wroth 3-6 suits of full plate armor. Explainations like normal troops are unavailable or you can't train up a knight (2nd-4th level fighter +full plates+horse) are weak given the war lasted 100 years.
The Dreaming Duck 07-01-07, 06:15 PM	An army would live of the land likely by plundeirng the nearest peasants farm. Also warforged get a bilk discount yet why can't the king get a bulk discount on food for the troops? Which is where the "hundred years of war" comes in. After a hundred years of troops plundering farms, there's no food left to plunder. If you read the Forge of War, you'll see that all five nations except Breland suffered food shortages at one period or another. And the king gets bulk discounts on warforged because it's more efficient to produce them in large numbers. In the case of food, they were already at capacity. The issue isn't whether you can afford to feed your troops; it's whether you have anything to feed them at all. Warforged didn't even come into use until the end of the war, when these famines were at their worst. If there's no food to be bought for any price, a soldier that doesn't need to eat becomes a good investment. After 100+ years of war it wouild be logical to assume nations could turn out trained fighters. Maybe only level 1 but still. Warriors represent militia, tribesmen, levies etc. A professional soldier is likely a fighter an due to the last war there should be alot of them floating around. It shouldn't take that long to train up a level 1 fighter- 6 weeks maybe in some sort of boot camp. In your world, perhaps. This isn't your world. It's Eberron. It's stated time and again throughout the ECS: Most NPCs use NPC classes (that's why they're called NPC classes, after all), and anyone with a PC class is a remarkable individual. This is echoed in the army composition section of The Forge of War: you may have elite forces with PC classes, but the rank and file are warrior 1 or commoner 1. The commoner reflects the volunteer levy; the warrior is your soldier who's gone through boot camp. The fighter isn't just churned out through boot camp; he represents someone who has a greater potential - the foundations of what it takes to be a hero. In this, Eberron is just echoing standard D&D demographics by the DMG. You know, where 99% of the world are 1st-level NPC-classed characters, and 94% of them are commoners? It's clearly established in Eberron that the typical trained soldier in the war was a 1st-level warrior; the typical veteran was (and is) a 2nd-level warrior; and that characters above this level of skill are remarkable. They're out there - The Redcloak Battalion, the Breland Dragoons, the Knights Phantom - but you can't just say "Oh, we need a few dozen more of those guys. Order them for me, will you?" Most people just don't have that level of skill. If you're going to argue the price given in an Eberron supplement, you need to take into consideration the foundations of that price: a world in which the typical soldier is a 1st level commoner or warrior, where you can't just train a character to possess the skills of a fighter - but where you can buy one with the skills of a 2nd-level fighter. In my opinion, the SKILLS of the warforged are nearly as valuable as anything else. The ability to say "I want a squad of rangers specializing in stealth and archery" - and to get it with a one-time payment, without having to worry about salary or anything else - is a tremendous draw. The fact that they don't eat or sleep is just a bonus. So in your world, you may be able to train loads of fighters - but you can't do it in Eberron. Theres a reason why Adamantine Full plate isn't given to every 2nd level fighter- its to fricken dear. First off, as we've just said, you're assuming you have higher-level fighters to give it to. In fact, you don't - at least, not many of them. Second, let's emphasize again: for less than half the price of the adamantine full plate - less than four suits of standard full plate - you're getting a skilled soldier trained with the skill set you want, with adamantine full plate at less than half its normal cost - knowing that he won't need to eat or sleep - and that you won't have to pay for him again. Beyond this, the warforged didn't replace common soldiers. For every warforged soldier you had, you probably had 100 commoners and 20 warriors. Nations weren't abandoning human forces to fight entirely with warforged, any more than our modern wars are fought entirely with drones or missiles. They were supplementing their human forces with warforged, used in positions where warforged would be most valuable. Explainations like normal troops are unavailable or you can't train up a knight (2nd-4th level fighter +full plates+horse) are weak given the war lasted 100 years. Believe what you will: It's still the foundation of the setting, and in line with standard demographics (most of the world is first level!). Most common people simply don't have the potential to advance far in level or to master a PC class. People get spoiled because they're used to high-level PC class characters. But if most people in the world are 1st level commoners, that 2nd-level warrior is a bad-*****. He doesn't NEED to be a 4th-level fighter - and if he IS, he's a SERIOUS bad-*****. That's the reality of Eberron. The 4th-level rangers of the Valenar are considered to be, per capita, the deadliest mercenary force on Eberron. YOU may think that it's trivial to put such a group together; but in Eberron, it's not. With that said, per Forge of War, nations did have access to some PC class soldiers; they're simply largely elite. Looking to cavalry, by Forge of War Brelish, Cyran, and Karrnathi cavalry soldiers were often fighters, though notably 1st-level fighters. Of course, Aundairian and Thranish cavalry soldiers were actually warriors. So your theoretical team of 2nd-4th level fighters is an elite unit. Certainly some existed, but they WEREN'T the common forces at the disposal of the kings. You couldn't just say "We need more 2nd level fighters, and we need them NOW!" - unless you bought warforged. You may not like it, but it's the basis of the setting: even in this age of war, the vast bulk of the people are 1st-2nd level warriors and commoners. The price of the warofrged isn't just about armor and the construct effects: it's about the ability to outright purchase an elite soldier. They didn't REPLACE the common soldiers, because they were too expensive and because there just weren't enough of them - but they certainly had their role.
Shady314 07-01-07, 06:30 PM	Logistics weren't that important until recent times. No logistics were always very important. As Napoleon said "an army marches on it's stomach." It was just a rare Medieval commander that paid much attention to it. And it was to the army's detriment that they ignored it.
Zardnaar 07-01-07, 07:06 PM	No logistics were always very important. As Napoleon said "an army marches on it's stomach." It was just a rare Medieval commander that paid much attention to it. And it was to the army's detriment that they ignored it. From the decline of the Roman empire until reasonably modern times armies didn't really have reliable logistics. Sieges were often broken when the besiegers ran out of food. Itsimportant yest but due to various reasons armies typically had poor logistics up until several hundred years ago. I'm not saying you can churn out hundred of mid level fighters on demand but it shouldn't be to hard to train a lvl 1 fighter. You can give me alot of in game explainations why but its a bit of a cop out. Why can Eberron with low level Artificers etc have skyships and lightning rail but can't train up a 1st level fighter in a reasonable amount of time is beyond me. Warforged are an excellent choice for soldiers but are to damn expensive when compared to other options. See the Stronghold builders guide or stormwrack for example. 1-2 Warforged or a new caravel. Animate dead at 25 gp a skeliton. I'm not expecting reality here but they're a poor investment for the amount of resources required.
The Dreaming Duck 07-01-07, 07:31 PM	I'm not saying you can churn out hundred of mid level fighters on demand but it shouldn't be to hard to train a lvl 1 fighter. You can give me alot of in game explainations why but its a bit of a cop out. Why can Eberron with low level Artificers etc have skyships and lightning rail but can't train up a 1st level fighter in a reasonable amount of time is beyond me. Artificers are even less common than fighters. What Eberron did was to introduce the magewright - an NPC class trained in the use of arcane magic. THESE are the people who produce the bulk of magic of Eberron. It's not a cop out. It's a fundamentally different approach to what NPC and PC classes mean - one that holds closer to the original DMG demographics. You're approaching this from the standpoint that a warrior is a poor soldier. Eberron doesn't. Eberron says that a COMMONER is a poor soldier, though still used in large numbers in war. A warrior, on the other hand, represents a trained, skilled soldier. A fighter represents something else entirely. It's not just training; training gets you warriors. Fighters are exceptional people with a level of skill beyond the norm. Your boot camp MAY produce fighters, but you can't rely on it, any more than a piano teacher can expect every student to be Mozart or a science teacher can expect to churn out Einsteins. You HOPE that out of this particular crop, some of your new soldiers will have the skills of fighters. But it's not a question of "Eh, just give this guy the crappy warrior training - give that one the fighter training." They all go through boot camp - whether you have what it takes to be a fighter is in YOU, and by demographics and all the suppliments, not many people have it. That's what makes PCs exceptional - because they always have PC classes, and because they can advance to any level and at any speed. Most NPCs use NPC classes, and most never rise above first level. They are the baseline. The fighter is the exceptional warrior. The cleric is the exceptional adept (who is herself fairly exceptional). The wizard or artificer is the exceptional magewright. You're coming from the view that a fighter is a nobody, that 6 weeks training gets you a fighter. Eberron takes the view that NO amount of training can make you a fighter if you don't have that inner spark. Training can make you a warrior - but PC classes are always exceptional. Even Breland's elite Redcloak Battalion uses NPC class levels... not surprising, since after all, they're NPCs. You're taking PC classes for granted; Eberron doesn't. Which, again, is a big part of the high cost of warforged: you know you're getting an expert soldier, while you might get one true fighter for every hundred warriors you train. Animate dead at 25 gp a skeliton. There's entire threads about this. Aside from the ethics - many religions being innately opposed to the use of undead - there's a lot of mechanical and tactical issues (having characters who can create them in large numbers in the first place, controlling them, the ability for them to be turned, the problems of mindless troops - as only Karrnath has the sentient skeletons, and those aren't just created with animate dead - and so on). I won't argue the point here, but I don't see it as being a viable alternative to warforged for most nations.
AkumaDaimyo 07-01-07, 07:32 PM	Warforged are cheap but not easy. :D
Hellcow 07-01-07, 08:24 PM	Artificers are even less common than fighters. What Eberron did was to introduce the magewright - an NPC class trained in the use of arcane magic. THESE are the people who produce the bulk of magic of Eberron. Actually, I think the poster may have been saying "With such low-level characters, how does Eberron even have lightning rails and airships?" Eberron also presumes the use of eldritch machines, wondrous locations, and dragonshard focus items to produce goods that no single wizard could do on his own. There's no feat for creating warforged, because you simply can't do it without a creation forge. It's a question of industry; magic is treated as a science in Eberron, and many of its most impressive wonders are only made possible by the use of tools. So it took a single brilliant artificer to create the first creation forge; but lower level artificers were able to use that forge to produce warforged. The same sort of principle applies on smaller scale to most of the major magics of Eberron. The reason Lyrandar and Orien need Zilargo isn't simply because the gnomes have the best elemental binders; they also have the best binding facilities, and replicating these elsewhere would be difficult and expensive (same sort of thing as understanding the basic principles of nuclear physics and actually building a nuclear reactor in your country). Beyond that, Dreaming Duck has pretty much said what I'd say. Eberron is predicated on the idea that the vast majority of the population are 1st-level NPC-classed characters, and that even a 2nd-level warrior is actually something to take seriously (hey, if we're talking average hit points and no Con bonus, he's got more than four times as many HP as the typical commoner, not even looking at his BAB and proficiencies). You can have PC class characters as NPCs, but they are exceptional people. Looking to the cavalry in Forge of War, the point is that they have picked out the best - not surprising, if you are going to give them your expensive gear. But the warrior is the product of military experience and training: the fighter is the exceptional individual with a true talent for the arts of war. Some people would rise in level, hardened by war, developing keen instincts and skill, and these people become Redcloaks or Arcane Knights. But most soldiers hit 2nd-level warrior (if that) and stop there; that's as good as they will ever be. And compared to the first level commoner, it's pretty good.
LoneStranger 07-02-07, 12:29 AM	Since I am playing a Warforged I figure I could weigh in on this at least a little. I'm not sure on prices for warforged regardless if it's a single one or a bulk order for a country since I haven't read Forge of War yet. However when you do buy warforged you get a mind capable of being molded in the arts of combat easier than an organic mind. Plus during this time the intelligent commander would find a way to make the warforged's first emotion pride in the country that bought him. Now for actual combat itself that gets a bit easier. You don't have to worry about food which makes whatever food you do bring with the army last that much longer. For the warforged themselves all you need are spare parts which can be easier to transport compared to everything you need for organic troops. Throw in a warforged artificer or two into a unit and they get that much more self sufficient (low levels mean repair minor damage has more impact). When it comes to loyalty I think warforged would have a better idea than some in this thread have given them credit for that "hey, that's the enemy, and I belong to this nation over here". There may be some that do realize that they're treated worse than other soldiers and may decide to head to another country or even outside of the war to get away from it all. At this point I will point out the errors made earlier in the thread. I will repeat that -10 hit points kills a warforged dead dead dead, no getting around that. Although it is nice that they only go inert and don't "bleed" any further once they get between 0 and -10. Also the AC of 25 is ludicrous for 1st level. The best AC I came up with for 1st level is a 21. This is from Adamantine body (+8), the dex mod you're allowed with that armor (+1), and a heavy steel shield (+2). The character just made 6th level and he'll have AC 22 now because of shield specialization. I'd like to know where the remaining points are coming from . Kinda long but I've said my piece at least.
Neutronium_Dragon 07-02-07, 01:21 AM	If he's a fighter, he could be using a tower shield for AC 24. If he spends his fighter bonus feat on Combat Expertise, he could raise that to 25 at a cost of -1 to attacks. Granted, at this point he has -3 to attacks, but even if he has a Str of 15 (which most 1st level fighters will under the elite array) that adds to the +1 BAB to give him a total of +0 to attacks. Not great, but if he's mainly fighting Warriors wearing leather, they'll be AC 13 or 15 with a shield (17 if they have a tower shield), which aren't bad hit odds when you consider that the warrior needs a natural 20 to hit him (and needs another 20 to crit).
Zardnaar 07-02-07, 01:47 AM	Actually, I think the poster may have been saying "With such low-level characters, how does Eberron even have lightning rails and airships?" Eberron also presumes the use of eldritch machines, wondrous locations, and dragonshard focus items to produce goods that no single wizard could do on his own. There's no feat for creating warforged, because you simply can't do it without a creation forge. It's a question of industry; magic is treated as a science in Eberron, and many of its most impressive wonders are only made possible by the use of tools. So it took a single brilliant artificer to create the first creation forge; but lower level artificers were able to use that forge to produce warforged. The same sort of principle applies on smaller scale to most of the major magics of Eberron. The reason Lyrandar and Orien need Zilargo isn't simply because the gnomes have the best elemental binders; they also have the best binding facilities, and replicating these elsewhere would be difficult and expensive (same sort of thing as understanding the basic principles of nuclear physics and actually building a nuclear reactor in your country). Beyond that, Dreaming Duck has pretty much said what I'd say. Eberron is predicated on the idea that the vast majority of the population are 1st-level NPC-classed characters, and that even a 2nd-level warrior is actually something to take seriously (hey, if we're talking average hit points and no Con bonus, he's got more than four times as many HP as the typical commoner, not even looking at his BAB and proficiencies). You can have PC class characters as NPCs, but they are exceptional people. Looking to the cavalry in Forge of War, the point is that they have picked out the best - not surprising, if you are going to give them your expensive gear. But the warrior is the product of military experience and training: the fighter is the exceptional individual with a true talent for the arts of war. Some people would rise in level, hardened by war, developing keen instincts and skill, and these people become Redcloaks or Arcane Knights. But most soldiers hit 2nd-level warrior (if that) and stop there; that's as good as they will ever be. And compared to the first level commoner, it's pretty good. That and higher level NPCs seem reasonably commen in Eberron adventures. A scroll of fireball is alot cheaper than a single warforged and can be bought at any reasonably large city-by the rules even in Eberron. 1 Warforged of several scrolls of fireball hmmmnnn. You could also equip quite a few level 1 warriors with Ballistas as well and I'm sure by using aid another rules they could hit a Warforged relativly easily. I'm also sure you could hire a higher level assassin (lvl 5-6) who could easily assainate tens of thousands gp worth of Warforged for alot cheaper than their production cost. Some of the Eberron books even have costs for assassination. 600gp IIRC to assasinate a lvl 2 character or 1/10th the cost of a Warforged. Page 15 Sharn city of Towers. Spend 60000 buying warforged and a rival can spend 6000gp and have a good chunk of them assassinated. It makes no economic sense to buy Warforged at that price. It may be the rules but in this case they are retarded. Plenty of stupid senseless rules in various D&D books though.Don't get me wrong Warforged should be expensive but 5-10K is to much.
The Dreaming Duck 07-02-07, 03:18 AM	That and higher level NPCs seem reasonably commen in Eberron adventures. Most likely because you're dealing with adventures designed for higher level PCs, so you have to. The point isn't that there are NO high level NPCs in Eberron; it's that they are exceptional, not commonplace. The Redcloak Battaleon are held up as some of the best Breland has to offer, and they're 7th-level NPC-classed characters. The fact remains that by Forge of War - the book whose warforged price you're disputing - the average soldier in the army is a 1st-level commoner or warrior, and that even the cavalry soldier is at best a 1st-level fighter. If you're going to debate one assertion in the book, you need to consider the others. A scroll of fireball is alot cheaper than a single warforged and can be bought at any reasonably large city-by the rules even in Eberron. 1 Warforged of several scrolls of fireball hmmmnnn. How is this a remotely valid comparison? Can a few scrolls of fireball guard your soldiers while they need to sleep? Can they patrol a perimeter? Will they still be around in fifty years? This is like comparing a rocket-propelled grenade to a jeep. he price difference is utterly meaningless, because they can't be used for the same function. If you need to kill a large number of commoners once, get the scroll - provided you have the wizard to USE the scroll, and can keep him alive. If you need a soldier who may be in service for thirty years, who can accomplish tasks requiring intelligence and hands, who can work or guard through the night, and who can incidentally kill hundreds of commoners over the course of that time... get the warforged. Of, what's that? You don't have a wizard to use the scroll? Well, you could always BUY one - if you're willing to buy a warforged wizard. You could also equip quite a few level 1 warriors with Ballistas as well and I'm sure by using aid another rules they could hit a Warforged relativly easily. Aid Another can only be used in melee combat. And we're back to versatility. "Joe, I need someone to guard the camp tonight." "Well, we've got a pack of guys with a ballista." "Do they need to sleep?" "Yeah, and they need be rested tomorrow to haul that ballista around when we start marching." "Damn it." I'm also sure you could hire a higher level assassin (lvl 5-6) who could easily assainate tens of thousands gp worth of Warforged for alot cheaper than their production cost. Some of the Eberron books even have costs for assassination. 600gp IIRC to assasinate a lvl 2 character or 1/10th the cost of a Warforged. Page 15 Sharn city of Towers. Spend 60000 buying warforged and a rival can spend 6000gp and have a good chunk of them assassinated. OK, at this point I honestly think you're just trolling. But on the off chance you're serious... WHAT?!? You're suggesting that the king, during wartime, is going to hire members of an assassin's guild to assassinate rank-and-file soldiers? And that the assassin is going to take this crazy contract, let alone for the same rate as working at home? Even if you find an assassin who's willing to work under battlefield conditions, why exactly are you sending him against the WARFORGED? Why isn't he killing officers, the wizards who use those scrolls of fireball you bought, or any one of a thousand people who play a far more important role in the operation of your army than a single typical warforged soldier? The fact that he cost your opponent 5,000 gp to buy hardly makes him the most worthy target of your assassin. Besides which, as you yourself noted, there's no assurance that he'll take out all those warforged; he can always screw up the job. And at the end of the day, after you've spent 6,000 gp, it's over. It's done. You have nothing; if you're lucky, your enemy has lost his warforged, but the assassin's not on your side anymore either. Meanwhile, if they AREN'T assassinated, your enemy has ten warforged soldiers that could last him a hundred years; with scrolls or assassins, your money is gone the moment you spent it. You're investing in fire-and-forget weapons; I'm investing in hardware that could last for decades. Two entirely different purposes. Again, I just can't believe the whole "I'll use the price charts of hiring an assassin in the city to account for assassinating soldiers on the battlefield" thing. A city job is perfectly suited to an assassin. Crowds to mingle with. Close to your own base of operations. You're own your own time table - shadow your opponent until you can catch him alone. Poison his food. Kill him in his sleep. Assassinating warforged soldiers in the field? Whole different story. You're not on your home ground, and it's probably taken you a while to reach your enemy's base (IE, additional charge for expenses and time). You're in someone else's army base, probably crawling with soldiers. If you can catch a single warforged alone and sneak attack him, you're probably good... though an adamantine warforged has an excellent AC even when flat-footed (assume no shield bonus for the warforged, AC 18; give the assassin a +3 BAB, +1 weapon, +3 ranged attack modifier for 16 Dex and +1 for precise shot and you’re still only at a 50% chance to hit), and light fortification gives him a 25% chance of negating your sneak attack damage. Even if you hit and get the sneak attack, on average damage, you won't take him down in one attack (assuming a 1d8+1 damage missile weapon and +3d6 sneak attack, an average of 14 damage through the DR; the typical adamantine warforged fighter, as shown, will have around 21 hit points). And since he’s immune to poison and doesn’t sleep, you can’t just poison the water supply (or your blade) or coup de grace him while he’s sleeping. Still, if you only encounter one, you’re probably fine – you should be able to work through the remaining 7 hit points (again, assuming you don’t miss or that fortification doesn’t absorb the sneak attack). But if there’s TWO, that’s going to get ugly – let alone three or more. Me, I’d stick with the wizard. That sneak attack should drop a 5th-level wizard, and that takes away fireball capacity. For my one-shot investment, I’d take out the big gun. All this sets aside the question of whether the Five Nations had any agreements concerning the use of assassins on the battlefields. Given that we DON’T hear about generals and kings getting knocked off right and left, I’d suspect they did. Don't get me wrong Warforged should be expensive but 5-10K is to much. I agreed at first, but I think 5K makes perfect sense. You can’t compare them to +1 bows and scrolls of fireball because the bow can’t fire itself and the fireball is fire and forget. Jeeps and grenades: two completely different purposes. It’s less than half the cost of buying the armor. Yes, you wouldn’t outfit every soldier with adamantine armor… but you also wouldn’t replace all of your soldiers with warforged. They’re a specialized tool, purchased in the minimum number required to accomplish the objective. Just like jeeps, helecopters, tanks, or any other form of military hardware. They don’t REPLACE the commoners; they fill a role the commoner – or the scroll of fireball – can’t. At this point I will point out the errors made earlier in the thread. I will repeat that -10 hit points kills a warforged dead dead dead, no getting around that. Although it is nice that they only go inert and don't "bleed" any further once they get between 0 and -10. Has anyone been saying otherwise? Hellcow and Maollelujah were debating the question of whether inert warforged would be executed or not; that seems to imply a pretty clear understanding that they CAN be killed. The question is whether people would kill inert warforged, not if it’s possible to do so. As it stands, it’s hard enough to bring an adamantine warforged down in the first place, let alone kill him in one blow. Assuming he’s on his feet, it would take at least 13 points of damage. A warrior with a 12 Strength and a greatsword could do it, and someone else could with a critical hit, but it’s much more likely they’ll get dropped into an inert state than killed outright.
The White Sorcerer 07-02-07, 04:00 AM	It prices a shield guardian at 10,000 GP, and says that a batch of a dozen warforged can be created for the same price, which would put their individual cost in the area of 800 GP. It then suggests 5,000 GP for an individual warforged. What? I thought the book priced a single warforged at 10,000, and a dozen at 5,000/warforged.:confused:
Zardnaar 07-02-07, 04:22 AM	I wasn't being to serious about the assasins. Go play a strategy game or read up on WW2. Resources mater. If you can destroy warforged at a cost ratio of 5-10 in your favour odds are you will win as no one cane reallly afford to suck that up. Its kinda like an RTS game where a cheap rocket man takes out an expensive tank. You win the resource war you win the game. My point was you can get better value for money by spending it elsewhere. Some of the examples are stupid. A warforged likely won't last 30 years on the battlefield. Most of them will be destroyed long before 30 years if they're seeing active duty. Constructs are vatly over priced for the amount of oomph you get out of them. look through the monster manual 1 for various monsters you can buy,. More than a few outclass a warforged in combat ability. Why can you have magical lightnig rail and skyships but not be able to train professional soldiers to fighter levl 1 standard in a 100 year war? Why can't you buy a war elphant or griffon or dire animal or hippogriff etc which are all cheaper than warforged and can be relativly easily trained by someone with the right skills? In a quasi fantasy world. Why did some bright spark not sell Griffons at 7000gp each and train griffon riders? 1 griffon would tear a warforged apart and costs about the same. Where is all this money coming from? Each warforged costs the same amount of money as a level 6-8 NPC's equipment (page 127 DMG) A small company or 2 of warforged costs the same amount as a major castle according to the stronghold builders guidebook. It makes no sense in Eberrons economy which is the economy as presented in the DMG. Its not cost effective as theres cheaper alternatives. Knights are expensive once the horse and full plate armor are taken into account but they are a fraction of the cost of a warforged. Warforged makle great soldiers I'm not disputing that but they're not invincable and you can kill them easily enough at a fraction of their cost.
Shady314 07-02-07, 04:44 AM	From the decline of the Roman empire until reasonably modern times armies didn't really have reliable logistics. Sieges were often broken when the besiegers ran out of food. Itsimportant yest but due to various reasons armies typically had poor logistics up until several hundred years ago. Yes I realize that. I was in fact agreeing with you. I was just being facetious by saying it was indeed important but not given the proper respect until later on. I apologize because I should have used a smiley face. To be clear: you had said it was UNimportant (in the sense it was not given much weight) I jocularly replied it was important (in the sense it had a huge effect on armies). :) Clear now? In the fantasy worlds of most literature the importance of logisitics has been recognized and I think this is true in Eberron as well.
The Dreaming Duck 07-02-07, 01:07 PM	Some of the examples are stupid. A warforged likely won't last 30 years on the battlefield. Most of them will be destroyed long before 30 years if they're seeing active duty. Constructs are vatly over priced for the amount of oomph you get out of them. Which is exactly my point. You're not looking at what you WOULD do with them. You're looking at what you would do with a second level human fighter or a scroll of fireballs and comparing the cost value to using warforged for the same job. So don't use warforged for the same job. Use them for the jobs no human can perform, or would want to perform. Use them for the task that a single fire and forget scroll won't achieve - as I said, that scroll can't guard your supply dump. Guard duty is a perfect example. You have a small weapons cache. Outfit it with humans and you DO have to make sure they have food and enough people to keep an active guard up 24 hours (meaning more humans, meaning more food). And as you said, if it comes to a siege, one of the best ways to lose is to be starved out. But you can't starve out warforged. They don't eat. They don't sleep. They can't catch disease (heck, I can take advantage of that and poison the water supply in the area - if your army tries a seige you'll need to drink, and then YOU'LL catch disease). High armor and Cleave makes them great wall guards - it's going to be hard for your men to climb in heavy armor, so they'll have the edge. And as guards, they COULD last 30 years, easily. They could potentially last a hundred years, for all we know; they don't age. Alternately, warforged are good as seigers for the same reason - they can outwait any human troops. They don't need to eat. They don't need to sleep. You do. And unlike a golem, they ARE intelligent, and can respond in a tactically intelligent manner. You're comparing a grenade to a jeep. Sure, if you blow up all your opponent's jeeps with your grenades, you've won the economic battle. But if you only have grenades and never buy any jeeps yourself, YOU aren't covering the task the jeeps are needed for. Looking back to the example of assassins - and I apologize if I was a little harsh there - sure, an assassin's hit job may be less expensive than a single warforged. But as I said, that assassin won't guard your human troops at night. He can't watch the supply dump for thirty years. If your goal is "kill one important person", the assassin is a better investment. But that's not why you buy a warforged. Guard duty. Situations where sleepless troops or no need for food are important. The vanguard of a human force, as I described before - heavily armored spearbreakers who are willing to charge the foe, and who if dropped can likely be resucitated after the battle. There are many jobs for which humans are better than warforged - or scrolls, or assassins. But there are roles where warforged are ideal, and that's why you buy them. If they were TOO cheap, there wouldn't have BEEN any human soldiers - while if you'll notice, by Forge of War, most soldiers were human. I will say again, however, that I would expect the assassin to charge far more for a wartime mission, and furthermore that a warforged is a terrible target. A human fighter has to take his armor off sometime (unless he wants to worry about fungal diseases). He has to eat, risking poison. He has to sleep, risking coup de grace. None of these are true for the warforged. Always armored, always on duty, immune to poison, even partially immune to sneak attacks. Fear of assassins is actually another good reason to invest IN warforged - because they're considerably less vulnerable than your human troops. Why can you have magical lightnig rail and skyships but not be able to train professional soldiers to fighter levl 1 standard in a 100 year war? Can you explain to me what an airship and fighter training have to do with each other? Seriously. How are these two things REMOTELY connected? I've gone over this quite clearly and been backed up by the creator of the setting. YOU are assuming that a warrior sucks. The fact of the matter is that he doesn't: he is the model of a typical soldier. The fighter is exceptional. Why can't you train any pianist to be Mozart? Because not everyone has that talent. You've been talking about Sharn. So LOOK at Sharn. The typical city guardsman is a 1st-level warrior. "ELITE" forces - both in the City Watch and the Royal Guard - are 2nd-level warriors. Their OFFICERS are fighters - the exceptional individuals who rise to the top. But that's not because they only bothered to train a few people up to fighter standard. It's because those people are the exceptional one who DID rise above the rank and file. And that's the issue. You can train all the warriors you have time for. But you can't just get fighters on demand. It's always going to be a crapshoot if there's any fighter-quality individuals in a group - unless you're dealing with warforged. Again, you can challenge it all you want, but it's clear in the setting, both in Sharn, the ECS, and The Forge of War, and it supports the DMG's general demographics. The fact that there's been a hundred years of war doesn't somehow make the people of the world into supermen. People are still people, and most people don't have the inner potential to grasp a PC class. Even reaching second level is enough to qualify you as elite. And again, this is a fundamental fact taken into account in the price of warforged. If you're not willing to accept it, you're failing to see one of the things that makes warforged valuable. Why can't you buy a war elphant or griffon or dire animal or hippogriff etc which are all cheaper than warforged and can be relativly easily trained by someone with the right skills? In a quasi fantasy world. Why did some bright spark not sell Griffons at 7000gp each and train griffon riders? 1 griffon would tear a warforged apart and costs about the same. First, if you're charging 7,000 gp for your griffon, then they don't cost the same (Remember? If you're buying an army, which you would be, warforged are only 5 K),plus you need your rider and his equipment. Second, you're once again completely missing the point. They DID buy griffons and wyverns and all those monsters you're talking about. That's the business of House Vadalis. If you've read Sharn, you should know about the Race of Eight Winds, which was derived from aerial combat drills. According to the ECS, Thrane had a devastating wyvern air force. But can a wyvern guard a supply depot? Now you're saying "Why buy a jeep when I could by a fighter jet?" Because they serve different roles. The army WILL have eternal wands of fireball. It WILL have wyvern or griffon cavalry. It will have all the human fighters it can get its hands on. And it will have warforged. And each of these things will be used in the most tactically appropriate manner. You're trying to squeeze everything into the same slot. You're looking at this like an RTS where all you have to consider is "I've got a budget of 10,000 gp and my only goal is to kill 100 commoners." But especially in a 100-year war, the commanders are looking at a far larger picutre, with MANY different tactical operations and concerns. Warforged will be a terrible investment for some of these - and an excellent investment for others. When you want to kill a small group of people clustered together, you use a grenade, not try to run them over with a jeep. But while the jeep is more expensive than the grenade, it serves many OTHER purposes, and that's why you bought it. Where is all this money coming from? Each warforged costs the same amount of money as a level 6-8 NPC's equipment (page 127 DMG) Just checking, because I don't have the DMG on me. Are you counting them at 5,000 gp or 10,000 gp? Because if we're talking about a national army, the 5K figure is the only one that matters. Beyond that, it comes from the national treasury... which is in turn supplimented by loans from House Kundarak and House Cannith. Could YOU buy a cruise missile? A tank? Fifty jeeps? The US army can. It has a budget of billions of dollars, and much of the hardware costs far more than the cost of a single soldier. The money comes from the nation, which spends it to acquire the tools it feels are best suited to the job. Sometimes that's a wand. Sometimes it's a griffon. And sometimes, it's a warforged. Knights are expensive once the horse and full plate armor are taken into account but they are a fraction of the cost of a warforged. And according to Forge of War, most are a fraction (half, to be specific) of the skill of the warforged, though there are exceptions. Plus you have that whole food/sleep issue. PLUS, many knights are your nobles. Do you really WANT to send them into the worst of war if you can send some automaton instead? That is another thing to consider; the cost of saving a human life. Warforged make a great vanguard because a) they can be recovered from being inert, and b) if they are destroyed, from a morale standpoint, someone's blown up your catapult. It's not the same as losing the son of Count Harvey. Warforged makle great soldiers I'm not disputing that but they're not invincable and you can kill them easily enough at a fraction of their cost. Of course they're not invincible. But they're tough - and they can do things no human can do. Again, it would be idiotic to try to replace every human soldier with a warforged soldier. And that's why no one did it. Look to the Forge of War. Armies are primarily organic. The warforged are specialized tools called into service for jobs that they are best suited to. With that said, let's get to the most important question. You don't like the price. So, how much would you charge for one? Right now, at 5,000K they are less than half the price of a suit of adamantine plate. They are slightly more than three times the price of a suit of perfectly normal full plate. In addition to the armor itself, you get a skilled soldier with, among other things, no family attachments, no political issues, no need of food or sleep, no concern about disease, and while we're at it, around four times the hit points of your average warrior (unless the warior spends a feat on Toughness, in which case around 2.6 times) and seven times the hit points of your average commoner (not to mention better weapon training and higher BAB). How much WOULD you charge? If the price is too low, how do you explain there BEING human soldiers at all by the end of the war? The price needs to be high enough that there is a reason NOT to use warforged in every situation - because while they aren't perfect or invulnerable, they are demonstrably superior to the typical soldier - or even the base-level elite (2nd-level warrior as defined by Sharn, at least in the Brelish Royal Guard) soldier. So with that in mind, if 5K is too high, what's fair? If you drop it to the price of a NORMAL suit of full plate, why would you ever buy full plate when you can buy an exceptional, tireless warrior with DR to boot IN that armor?
Zardnaar 07-02-07, 04:57 PM	I'll have a think about the price of it but a cheap warforged shpould be about twice the cost of an equivilent human slave. 200 gp or there abouts for a lvl 1 NPC classed warforged. The price of warforged does make sense for a high level party to buy one or perhaps elite bodyguards to the king.but not a national scale to raise an army. A level 2 I'm not pulling figures out of my butt. at 5000gp thats roughly the equipmenmt of a NPC fighters, 9600 is the equipment for a level 8 NPC. 100-200 warforged are the same price as a reasonably major castle in a D&D economy. You're also appliing modern humanist values in what is a fantasy world. Up until recently life was cheap on earth and slavery was legal so at that price I don't think the human life value should be much of an argument. The USA can afford cruise missiles and fet fighters etc but is in a post industrial society and has a population of 300 million. Most nations in Eberron have a population of 2 million or less. A suit of full plate adamantine is quite expensive but it seems you can't loot a dead warforged for 10000gp woth of admantine so perhaps it is quasi magical adamantine that detiorates once the warforged is dead. Another words the creation forge makes it alot cheaper than a normal adamantine full plate. I don't see what is special about a low level human fighter. Historically lotsa ancient nations would have had fighters in their armies not warriors- roman legionaires and spartens come to mind. They were either higher level than their contemporary opponents or their opponents used NPC classed warriors (persians, gauls whatever) To me a warrior is either a part time soldier, member of a tribal society or a militia member. A good arguement should be made that any professional full time soldier would be a fighter not a warrior. I'm not saying the 5 nations should be able to crank out level 2+ fighters on a regular basis but level 1 fighters would be reasonable IMHO. Forge or War (I don't have it) might say otherwise and I'm not disputing that but it could be a stupid part of that book- kinda like the Warforged are inherently untrustworthy in Races of Eberron. Stupid fluff that makes little sense. Game designers are human as well. How much would I charge for a Warforged? An elite level 2 one with the Adamantine body feat (which is free BTW)maybe 2000gp. That would make them comparable to Knights and allow them to be deployed in similar numbers and be treated as elite heavy infantry. What do you think a traditional western europe style Knight would be in terms of levels? I'm thinking Fighter 4 in D&D rules (a lower level fighter can't afford the equipment some knights may be poorer though and wear chainmail). IIRC correctly the French deployed the most Knights IRL and had 5000 (Crecy, Agincourt) or so supplemented by levies and crossbow men. If any nation has even half that number in Eberron they will mow down heavy infantry including Warforged at alot less cost than the Warforged. I suppose I'm being unreasonable to assume a nation could get some heavy cavalry or level 1 fighters fomr somewhere though. Nations on Earth managed it with a lower tech level than Eberron and Europe also had a 100 year war.
The Dreaming Duck 07-02-07, 05:38 PM	I'm not pulling figures out of my butt. I'm aware of that. I said I didn't have the table handy, so I didn't know if you were talking about 5,000 or 10,000. Up until recently life was cheap on earth and slavery was legal so at that price I don't think the human life value should be much of an argument. You're telling me that medieval knights WEREN'T ransomed during wartime? Because that certainly contradicts what I know of history. Beyond that, I'm not saying that you'd worry about paying for a warforged to replace the commoner. In fact, that's what I've been saying again and again and again and again: the warforged doesn't replace the commoner or the warrior. You're not buying them on a one-to-one basis to do the same job you'd use a human or commoner for. They are specialized equipment for specialized situations. 100-200 warforged are the same price as a reasonably major castle in a D&D economy. Hmm. If so, that castle may be less than half the price of Kaius' personal equipment, which comes out to 110,000 gp. Again, we're not dealing with the minor feudal lord; he'd contribute commoners and warriors to the cause, and maybe a knight. We're talking about the nation, which has both greater capital (and the ability to raise taxes to get more), and likely major loans. The USA can afford cruise missiles and fet fighters etc but is in a post industrial society... Eberron isn't your traditional medieval society. The creation forges essentially ARE industrial in nature. In his earlier post, Hellcow was explaining that the houses DO essentially have magic factories - and THAT'S how you get lightning rails and airships in a society with so few high level wizards. Because you have industry, not simple hand-crafted magic. Besides which, while I was using it as an example, I wouldn't consider 5,000 for a warforged to be the same price as a cruise missile - if it is, Kaius is carrying around the equivalent value of 22 cruise missiles. perhaps it is quasi magical adamantine that detiorates once the warforged is dead. If you read the warforged dragonshard, that's exactly what it is. I don't see what is special about a low level human fighter. You're right: you don't. Eberron does. The point of Eberron is that it draws a distinction between heroes and minor characters. One of the things that defines a hero is superior skill. By limiting NPCs to NPC classes, Eberron makes those characters who have PC classes shine even at low level. As a 4th-level fighter, you ARE a bad-ass in Eberron - because most soldiers are 1st or 2nd level warriors. Even the Redcloaks are higher level, but still warriors - meaning that at 4th level, you can still look pretty good alongside them. You've described your vision. But it's quite clearly NOT the one Eberron subscribes to. Forge of War. Sharn. A warrior isn't a part time, slightly trained militiaman. A 2nd-level warrior is an elite member of Breland's Royal Guard. It may not be what you'd do, but it's a basic fact of the setting, plain and simply. Meanwhile, Eberron DOES have forces trained as fighters. Among others, the warforged. The elite forces of the Dhakaani hobgoblins - supposedly some of the best soldiers in the history of Khorvaire - are described as being fighters instead of warriors. The Valenar elves are largely rangers. There are your Spartans - goblins and elves. But the point is that like the Spartans, their culture is entirely dedicated to this. The Five Nations may have been through a hundred years of war, but they haven't become Sparta, any more than France and England did in their long war. Each nation has still held on to its cultural values. The soldiers fight because they have to, not because it's their reason for living. For the Valenar, on the other hand, it IS their reason for living. They spend the first hundred years of their lives doing nothing but preparing for war, and they devote every waking moment to following in the footsteps of their martial ancestors. Frankly, I think Aundair would be a fairly decent place to live - while the Valenar are essentially fascists indoctrinated into a culture of war from birth. The only joy they find in life is in battle. Yes, THAT results in more PC classed characters. But that's not life in the Five Nations. In the Five Nations, people do still care about their families. They do have aspirations aside from war. Even the Karrns are a militant culture and undoubtedly produce more fighters than other nations; but they aren't the Dhakaani or the Valenar. And level is the other key. You say "They were either higher level than their contemporary opponents or their opponents used NPC classed warriors". Right. Higher level. By Eberron, the typical soldier is a 1st-level warrior; the elite soldier is a 2nd-level warrior. Better chance to hit, twice the hit points... if you're matched in numbers, your 2nd-level warriors will slaughter the 1st-levels. They don't need to be fighters at that point. Again, if 98% of the world is made up of 1st-level commoners with some 1st-level warriors mixed in - which after all, is what the DMG advises - even the 2nd-level warrior is a force to be reckoned with. Furthermore, you're missing another point. Sure, with the Spartans, their propaganda at least is based around the skill of the individual warrior. With the Romans? Yes, their troops were well-trained. But a tremendous aspect of their victory over the Celts and the Gauls was based on tactics, not on the tremendous high levels of their individual legionaires. The Celts were undisciplined; the Romans used an unprecedented level of troop tactics, along with superior equipment. They could be perfectly matched in skill level (if you read The Tain, Cu Chulain is a scary #$@%), and the Romans will win because of their superior tactics and better equipment. I can certainly see an elite legionnaire as a 2nd-level warrior; but I don't see a need for him to be a fighter, when Eberron has stated that a fighter is someone exceptional who stands out from the crowd. The point is that in Eberron, fighters exist so that when you WANT a low-level legionaire to be exceptional, you make him a fighter. If you want the simple militiaman, make him a 1st-level warrior. Again, compared to that 2nd-level "elite", he's substantially worse off, even without the fighter class levels added in. I'm not saying the 5 nations should be able to crank out level 2+ fighters on a regular basis but level 1 fighters would be reasonable IMHO. Forge or War (I don't have it) might say otherwise and I'm not disputing that but it could be a stupid part of that book- But Sharn says it as well. And the ECS. And, for that matter, the default demographics of the DMG. Again, you're presuming that most nations on Earth produced fighters. As I've just spelled out, Eberron assumes that what you see as the difference between a warrior and a fighter is in fact the difference between a 1st-level warrior and a 2nd-level warrior. Also, consider feats. A 1st-level human warrior gets two feats. If he's a minimally trained peasant levy, then his feats will likely be tied to his NON-military life - he'll have Skill Focus (profession: Farmer) or the like. If he's a dedicated soldier, those two feats will be directly tied to warfare. There's a lot of different ways to get variety between 1st and 2nd-level warriors without adding fighters into the equation. In Eberron, the point is that the PCs stand out. Making the vast majority of NPCs use NPC classes (as indicated by the DMG) is one of the things that makes this possible - so even as a 3rd level fighter, you are exceptional.
Hellcow 07-02-07, 06:16 PM	What do you think a traditional western europe style Knight would be in terms of levels? I'm thinking Fighter 4 in D&D rules (a lower level fighter can't afford the equipment some knights may be poorer though and wear chainmail). There's one important fact here: the table of NPC gear presented in the DMG is a guideline, not a hard rule. Lots of NPCs in Eberron (and other settings) are above or below their equipment values. As Dreaming Duck has pointed out a few times, Kaius in Five Nations is far above his equipment value. And because of this, his CR is increased. The equipment value isn't a magic "Any NPC of this level WILL have this gear"; it's saying "In order to be considered as a threat of the CR his level would normally indicate, an NPC of this level should have this level of equipment." If you've got a 1st-level knight and you want to give him full plate, of course you can do it; he comes from a noble family, it's an heirloom, whatever. But that's better gear that the DMG expects him to have at that level, and the DM will need to decide if it's necessary to raise or lower the CR. So you should never judge the level of the character based solely on his equipment. Great, the French had lots of armored knights at Agincourt and the English had lots of peasant longbowmen with nothing but bows and daggers. That doesn't mean that the knights had to be high level ("It's the only way they could afford horse and armor") or that the peasants had to be first level ("If they were higher level, they'd have armor or magic bows"). A knight could still be a 1st-level aristocrat serving because of his family's obligation to the crown, while the peasant bowman could be a 2nd-level warrior or, if he's truly exceptional, a 2nd-level ranger, whose skills have been honed by years of poaching deer in the King's woods. It's just that if this is the case, the French are overequipped and will have a higher CR, while the underequipped English would have a lower CR. Dreaming Duck has already said everything I'd say here. In Eberron the distinction between militia and elite is one of level, not class. PC classes are reserved for exceptional people. It may be that your knights ARE exceptional people. Certainly, if you're running an Arthurian campaign, Arthur and his knights should be fighters and knights. But that's because they are the heroes, the characters who stand out from the crowd. A fourth level knight is a powerful character in Eberron; not ridiculously powerful (I think cavalry commanders in Forge of War are listed at 2nd-3rd level), but still, a man who knows his business and who could pose a threat to a considerable number of first level commoners and warriors. Might there have been a few such soldiers at Agincourt? Probably. But were all 5,000 knights this level? Not in my opinion. Many would be lower level. Many would be aristocrats (which after all gives you proficiency with martial weapons and armor and access to the Ride skill). It's all about the baseline. If you accept that the vast majority of people are 1st level commoners - which as has been pointed out, is what the Dungeon Master's Guide suggests - then you can see that the second level warrior is competent, a fourth level fighter is fearsome, and that the twelth level character is the stuff of song and story. (And on that note, I'd definitely see tenth level characters as being significant enough to be involved in a Boranel assassination plot!!!)
Zardnaar 07-02-07, 06:31 PM	I can see the point of your arguement but it still doesn't make any sense. Higher level individuals may be rare in Eberron but they do exist. That level 6 Sorceror who knows Fireball as a spell can kill a huge aount of level 1 and 2 mooks. And Sharn still uses the DMG for demographs and being a major city will have a higher than normal amount of higher level types in it. Supplement your normal forces with a Sorceror or Warmage. They'll probably be cheaper to hire than to buy 1-2 Warforged. They might be rare but they do exist and logically some of them would be willing to sell their services. Its a stupid assumption. By the rules the City Watch of sharn are low level warriors. A typical problem most D&D worlds have is power inflation. If the PCs are so special and higher level than the rest of the world how will the rest of the world react with them or control them? A mid level party can hack through the city guard and the kings elite guard and probably kill the monarch as well without to much hassle. Eberron seems to be a high magic world with a low power level and economics that make no sense even withen rather awfull D&D gold standard. You also level up quite fast so PCs will be nid level (5-10) reasonably quickly and they're amoung the most powerful people on Eberron. Since you seem to be a big fan commoners the average commoner in D&D earns 1sp per day (DMG). Thats 50000 days labour to pay for the cheapest warforged. Or 150 years non stop labour 24/7 give or take or 300 years of 12 hour work days. How are the nations affording warforged again? In real world terms a $20K per year which is a low wage. Each warforged is about the equivilent of $3 million dollars probably more as the conversion isnt to exact. Where is the money coming from with all these low level mooks earning so little a day? A monarch gets his money via taxes and the majority of his subject (common labourers) earn 1sp/day. Either the Eberron commoners get payed more or the middle class earns alot more than the average commoner and is quite large. 1/sp a day 50% tax rate in war (poor subjects BTW) is about 1 million sp a day income if your nation has 2 million citizens (Aundair). 100000gp/dayX 365= 36 500 000/year. In WW2 the USA spent about 40% of its GDP on the war effort. At a very high tax rate (50% flat tax) which would probably bankrupt the country in a few years let alone 100 and spending 40% (unsustanable ) of its GDP on the war (13 500 000 roughly per year) I wonder how much of that budget is spendable on warforged? You have normal armies to maintain and supply, fortress to build/repair, weapons and armor to buy as well. And thats in extreme circumstances. In an average year the military budget would probably be half to one third of that cost as 50% tax rate is unsustanable when 40% of your countries income is being spent on the war. Not all of those 2 million citizens would be taxpayers either (children/old people) so that could even cut the budget in half again which would bring it down to 6.5 million gp give or take per year. Realistically its even lower so if Aundair spent their entire military budget on warforged at 5000gp each they could buy around 1200 warforged per year. Since they can't spend their entire budget on warforged and the budget with my numbers is probably to generous and is likely half that figure if that brings it down to 600 warforged per year using their entire budget. If they spend 25% of their budget on warforged thats 150-300 per year and the 300 number is the 50% tax rate, 40% GDP figure which would leave very little left over to pay loans (ie default on them who will lend them money if a country defaults). At that price Warforged can only be bought for elite bodyguards. They're to expensive for elite formations in a battlefield. See 2 can play at the majority of Eberrons inhabitants are level 1 NPC classes. Forge of War can say whatever it likes I don't own it but it still doesn't make any sense.
Zardnaar 07-02-07, 06:37 PM	The Knight did have 7 years or training or so to qualify to be a Knight so I suspect they would be fighters rather than warriors. Maybe multiclass Fighter/Nobles. Level 10-11 PCs don't really have to plot to kill the knig. They can basically barge in through the front door if not disintegrate it massacre his personal guard and butcher everyone with no one to stop them no subtlety required.
Hellcow 07-02-07, 07:24 PM	Higher level individuals may be rare in Eberron but they do exist. That level 6 Sorceror who knows Fireball as a spell can kill a huge aount of level 1 and 2 mooks. You're absolutely right. He does exist. He's an extremely valuable part of the army. And he's why Aundair did as well in the war as it did. And, if the opponent is going to assassinate someone, he'll be the target - because he's the one who you can't just replace for 5,000 gp; he's got a level of skill you just can't buy. And Sharn still uses the DMG for demographs... Actually, it doesn't. As one of the authors of Sharn, what we used was the demographics table in this Dragonshard (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20040712a), which produces lower-level characters than that in the DMG. There's a single 11th-level wizard in Sharn, and a single 10th-level sorcerer - again, quite different than the DMG metropolis, where the bonus alone would push you to 12th. By the table we used, in Sharn - a city that draws adventuring types and has more than its share of high-level characters - there are a total of 26 sorcerers of level 6 or above. And some of those are criminals, diplomats from other nations, dragonmarked heirs with no interest in national wars, or the like; they aren't just waiting for the chance to go out onto the battlefield and die for your king. Supplement your normal forces with a Sorceror or Warmage. Or a magewright with an eternal wand, the most common solution. But Dreaming Duck is absolutely right. Can you hire a sorcerer? Absolutely. And they did. War magic played a huge role in the war. But it's not an either/or situation. The example of warforged as guardians or supporters of a siege is an excellent one. If you're trying to hold a region of fetid swamp where disease runs rampant and there's little food supply? The warforged are the ideal tools for the job; that sorcerer can still get sick or starve. Use the right tool for the job. The warforged aren't right for every task, and neither is the sorcerer. Its a stupid assumption. By the rules the City Watch of sharn are low level warriors. A typical problem most D&D worlds have is power inflation. If the PCs are so special and higher level than the rest of the world how will the rest of the world react with them or control them? A mid level party can hack through the city guard and the kings elite guard and probably kill the monarch as well without to much hassle. Actually, I've written a book (Crime and Punishment by Atlas Games) that deals with exactly this problem. Essentially, it's all about what you want in your game. Do you say "It's stupid to let Legolas, Gimli, and Aragorn be more powerful than the average Rohirrim - let's make EVERYBODY level ten!" Or do you accept that the players SHOULD be much tougher than the city guard, and that by the time they are tenth level the things that pose a challenge to them should be rakshasa, agents of the Chamber, elite forces of the Lord of Blades, and the like? Beyond that, even being lower level and NPC classed, with the right tactics and equipment, the Redcloaks can pose a threat to a higher-level group of PCs. In Eberron, the rest of the world isn't supposed to control you. You are the hero of the story. At the begining, you're only powerful enough to deal with simple threats, and yes, the Sharn Watch is a challenge. By the time you're tenth level, you're supposed to be dealing with challenges no one else can face. When the Tarrasque shows up, you have to deal with it, because the city watch of Sharn simply AREN'T powerful enough. And if that means you choose to turn that power against society? Fine. But there's consequences for that too. Few people may have the power to stop you, but what will you do with it? You may be able to kill the king of Breland. But that won't make the Brelish people follow you. And from that point on, much of the world is against you. You'll have to worry about every meal - has it been poisoned by Thuranni assassins, or even just an innkeeper seeking vengeance for his murdered king? Do you have a safe place to sleep at night? Are you prepared for retaliation from those few high-powered characters who are out there? You may still HAVE the power to overcome all these things. You're higher level than that innkeeper and than the vast majority of Thuranni assassins (although Madra Sil Sarin shows that there are exceptions). But do you want to live your life under pursuit? Beyond this, there are exceptional characters out there, like the Knights Phantom. One of the things Forge of War does is to present the elite orders of each nation - groups that can rival mid-level PCs. But these characters are called out as being exceptional. Beyond this, you're the one who brought the DMG demographics into play. Even setting aside the fact that Eberron runs off lower demographics, the DMG is based on the idea that 90% of the world's population are 1st level commoners. All I'm saying is to think about what that means - about what that 4th-level knight is like when set next to a group of 1st-level commoners. In that world, you don't have to be high level to be impressive. Eberron seems to be a high magic world with a low power level... Really? I've never seen it as high magic. Sure, it's got flying ships (which are a very recent development). But it doesn't have teleportation networks. It doesn't have a network of sending stations or crystal balls. The streets aren't patrolled by iron golems. Airships aren't even made for war, and you don't have soldiers flying around on flying carpets. Great, it's got continual flame lights and whispering wind used for communication. Innkeepers use prestidigitation to heat and flavor food. That's not HIGH magic; it's WIDESPREAD magic. People are still impressed by teleportation, resurrection, and other high-level spells; they're simply comfortable with spells of third-level or below, because at that level you DO see casters who can perform them. But by the time you get to wish, teleportation circle, and the like? Those are miracles. You also level up quite fast so PCs will be nid level (5-10) reasonably quickly and they're amoung the most powerful people on Eberron. Yup. That's the point of PCs. That's while I continually emphasize the fact that NPCs don't advance the same way PCs do. It's like a movie; at the begining of the movie Luke is a lame farmboy; by the end, he's a hero of the Rebellion. When you start out at 1st level, you're not much to mention; but play a few adventures and you're a 4th level somebody, and soon you'll make it to 10th level and become one of the heroes of the age. It's one of the basic points of the game (Page 250 of the ECS, "The Player Characters Are Heroes!"). If you don't like it, you can ignore it. But it's a basic assumption of the setting. Realism isn't the concern. As the DM you're writing a novel or making a movie, and the PCs should clearly be the main characters in it. Either the Eberron commoners get payed more or the middle class earns alot more than the average commoner and is quite large. Khorvaire most certainly has a significant middle class. It's not medieval Europe; it's got more in common with the late 19th century-early 20th century. Telegraphs, trains, the beginning of air travel. You also have the dragonmarked houses, advanced multinational guilds that have themselves been in existence for over a thousand years. Besides which, if I read your math correctly, a suit of full plate costs $1 million; that griffon will run you $4.4 million; and Kaius is running around with $66 million in gear. Frankly, it's a game. The warforged are expensive enough to prevent them from replacing regular infantry, but the cost is low enough and the value is high enough (in terms of skills, racial immunities, and other benefits) to make them worthwhile for the proper tasks. They didn't replace the common soldier. At that price, they never would. But for the right assignments, two warforged would be worth it - just as for the right assignment, someone might spend 10,900 gp on an eternal wand of fireball. Different tasks, equal value. They're to expensive for elite formations in a battlefield. But that's just it, Zardnaar. Who's saying they WERE used for mass formations on the battlefield? From what I recall of Forge of War, it doesn't. The point is that they WERE too expensive to replace the common soldier. You might have a small - emphasis small - unit of warforged with an army that takes the vanguard. Or one that serves as a tireless scouting unit working in hostile environments. Or a handful of combat engineers who specialize in working 24-7 on fortifications. But they didn't replace human soldiers, because they were too expensive. Lower the price too far and you turn from the question of why they were used to why they weren't used in far greater numbers.
Hellcow 07-02-07, 07:39 PM	Reading it again, I'll just say that the demographics dragonshard (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20040712a) - written back when the setting first came out - really covers all of this. If I'd reread it earlier, I could have saved myself the time of writing my last post. It's approved by WotC design, and it's what we used when making Sharn. It addresses the role of PC and NPC classes among NPCs, the rapid advancement of PCs, and the difficulty of challenging high-level PCs. So you may want to take a look at it.
The Dreaming Duck 07-02-07, 08:51 PM	I realize now that I've wasted my life... or at least a few hours of it. Why are we arguing about this again? Zardnaar, between the two of us we've spent pages debating the price of something that ever be bought in the modern day, and which it's questionable if it could EVER be bought by private individuals in the past. In addition to which, as you've pointed out, NOTHING about D&D economics makes sense. While I'm not going to do the math myself, let's say you're right and 5,000 gp = 3 million dollars. That means Kaius is walking around with $66 million in bling on him. It means that a simple potion of cure light wounds costs $45,454. That assassin you were going to hire to kill a second level warforged? He wants $361,445.00 for the job - a little pricier than most hit men I've heard about. Even your simple 15 GP longsword costs around $9000 - let alone the $45,000 those peasants at Agincourt spent on their longbows. If your figures are right, NOTHING in D&D makes sense. So why start arguing with the warforged, something which can't even be purchased in the present day? You need to either accept that gold in D&D flat out doesn't make economic sense, and that the price of the warforged is balanced against the cost of similar magic items... or start from the ground up and change the amount of money a common laborer makes in a day, going from there. If the issue is that the 1 sp/day for the laborer equals $3,000,000 warforged, I'd change the salary of the laborer - because whatever you do with the warforged, you've still got that $45,000 longbow. Even that scroll of fireball is going to run you $230,000 for a single blast; is that really logical? Personally, I'm just going to ignore it and get back to gaming. ;) But if you want to do something, I'd address the root of the problem - the base level of coin in the hands of the commoner - than argue about the price of a single commodity in a world where EVERYTHING is overpriced.
Lelander_the_L 07-02-07, 09:04 PM	In the last war the Warforged were almost always titans and they cost about 10,000gp to make (The Forge of War)
Zardnaar 07-03-07, 01:38 AM	OK rant over I'll just say Warforged are over priced and leave it at that. Forge of War does sound interesting is it a sourcebook/novel. Eberron newb. Also does anyone know how much a creation forge it?
The Dreaming Duck 07-03-07, 01:14 PM	Nope, no idea on the price of a creation forge. Since they're eldritch machines, they aren't something you can easily just decide to build. Now, it seems to me that we've at least agreed to disagree, and I'm good with that. However, I finally took out Forge of War myself and read the section in question, and I find that I disagree with the basic assertions made - a warforged is 10,000 gp or 5,000 gp with discount, a shield guardian is 10,000 gp, etc. Let's look at the actual quotes. The techniques perfected by House Cannith resulted in a process for creating warforged soldiers that was remarkably cost-effective - at least when compared to golems or shield guardians, which cost a minimum of 10,000 gp to create. What this DOESN'T say is "A shield guardian costs 10,000 gp to create." We know how much a shield guardian costs to create - 65,000 gp and 4,500 XP. It's right there in the Monster Manual. What it DOES say is that when creating "golems or shield guardians" - and "golem" is a broad category, NOT a specific creature - the cheapest option is 10,000 gp. Shield guardians are chucked in as an example. It's just saying that the cheapest GOLEM is 10,000 gp. That would, in fact, be the flesh golem, which costs 10,500 gp + 780 xp. As a side note, it's never been stated that it costs XP to produce warforged. Since they are created through the forge and in mass numbers, this makes some sense - and would play a huge role in the ability to produce large numbers of warforged when it's impossible to produce an equal number of golems. If the artificers are out of XP, no golems for you - but you can still make warforged. So, the cheapest golem is 10,000 gp... and has a tendency to go berserk in combat, so you can see how it's not a great choice in an army. Warforged are "remarkably cost-effective" by comparison, implying that even the single warforged costs less than 10,000 gp - enough less to be "remarkable". With a functioning and well-maintained creation forge, a Cannith artificer can create a dozen warforged for a cost comparable to that of a single shield guardian. That cost? 65,000. Thus, according to this example, warforged are 5,416 gp. Slight problem here, but we'll come to it. Compared to the cost of feeding, armoring, and bunking a human soldier, spending between 5,000 and 6,000 gold pieces on a tireless, armor-plated soldier that needs no food and is immune to disease seemed like a very reasonable investment. There's the price tag. Apparently, if you're buying a warforged, it costs "between 5,000 and 6,000 gold pieces". This doesn't quite jibe with saying that the Cannith artificer can produce a dozen at the same cost as a shield guardian, because that would put the PRODUCTION cost at between 5,000-6000 gp. I'm guessing the designer got the 65,000 gp figure in his head and then forgot it was production cost and not market price. There's no way to know for sure, because no numbers are given. But this is a clear statement of how much people had to pay, and it's what I'll use. Not 10,000 gp, which is the minimum production cost of a golem: 5,000-6,000 gp for the customer, which is remarkably cost-effective compared to the standard market price of 20,000 gp for the flesh golem (though if you like soldiers made of dead guys who have a tendancy to go berserk and maybe kill their own comrades, go for it). Also, one of the key features? You're getting an armor-plated soldier. Again, backing up the "they have adamantine body" claim, since composite plating is like wearing leather armor, and you can't put other armor on top of it. If it's a selling point, you can assume it's the good stuff. So. The customer is paying 5,000 - 6,000 gp. But wait, there's more! Nevertheless, warforged costs were great... The house offered early discounts and reduced prices for large orders... They've given us the price the customer is considering: 5,000 - 6,000 gp. Thus, discounts and reduced prices are ON THAT PRICE. In other words, it's not 10,000 gp or 5,000 gp in bulk; it's 5,000 gp for an individual, and less than that in bulk. Again, when you factor in the armor value, I see the point here. But running down the facts: 10,000 gp is the least expensive golem - and the warforged are called out as being "remarkably cost-effective" in comparison. The price the customer is considering - when he compares it to the cost of his soldiers - is "5,000 - 6,000 gold pieces". The house offered "early discounts and reduced prices for large orders." So bought in bulk, the warforged were actually less expensive than 5,000 gp. While Forge of War doesn't back up Hellcow's preference that the average warforged was a second-level fighter, it does specifically note that "Even the rawest warforged deployed in battle is a trained fighter rather than a mere warrior, which helped justify the expense of a construct soldier." So there we do have the clear "PC classes are rare and all warforged used them" statement. If you prefer Hellcow's assertion that the typical one was 2nd-level, just play off the "the rawest warforged" statement and say that most were trained further. If you forced one into battle right away, you get a 1st-level fighter; if you take advantage of the chrysalis period described in the dragonshard, you can get a 2nd-level character before it runs out. I understand that you feel that 5,000 is still too much, Zardnaar - I'm fine with disagreeing there. But it is the case that 5K-6K is the base price that's then scaled down for a bulk order - not 10K scaled down to 5K.
Revvecor 07-03-07, 08:14 PM	Well said! :clap:
Kaladon7779 07-05-07, 12:31 PM	I understand that you feel that 5,000 is still too much, Zardnaar - I'm fine with disagreeing there. But it is the case that 5K-6K is the base price that's then scaled down for a bulk order - not 10K scaled down to 5K. 10,000 is way to little for a construct that thinks on its own and experiences on his own. Most golems/constructs you need to push money per Hit Die. So Hellcow what if some real hardcore gamer came along and said something stupid like... Can't you construct a warforged as. Base cost of level 1 Warforged = 10,000 So i've got Exceptional Artisan so 10,000 X .75 = 7500 Now I want him to have an Alignment specific so 7500 X .7 = 5250. Now isn't that considered a magical item since they get enchanted like one? So wouldn't I cut the cost in half since 5250 is the base price. So.... 5250 / 2 = 2625. :D I don't know it sounds stupid but I thought it was humerous. But i'm sure there are PPL that think that is completely within rules.
Cifer 07-05-07, 01:41 PM	10,000 is way to little for a construct that thinks on its own and experiences on his own. Most golems/constructs you need to push money per Hit Die. And that would be why the warforged are considered a revolutionary breakthrough in magical science.
The Dreaming Duck 07-05-07, 02:43 PM	And that would be why the warforged are considered a revolutionary breakthrough in magical science. Exactly. It's "remarkably cost-effective", and something that can only be done by a person with the Mark of Making and even then only when using an artifact-level focus item. Also, I don't see how you could consider warforged "alignment-specific"; their alignment isn't fixed (while they can be indoctrinated after creation, one of the points is that they can't be "programmed" before creation) and it's not like they can only be "used" by people of a certain alignment. Beyond that, I don't see the argument that they are "enchanted like magic items". We've never seen any sort of feat associated with their creation; they don't radiate magic; they don't become inert in an anti-magic field; and so on, and so on. They are living creatures created through a magical process, but they aren't created in the same manner as traditional golems or magic items; it's all about the creation forge. But the key is that it is both a breakthrough and one called out as being surprisingly cheap in comparison to a golem.
The Dreaming Duck 07-05-07, 02:46 PM	Most golems/constructs you need to push money per Hit Die. I do think it's logical to assume that if there IS variation in hit dice - if you can purchase a 1st-level "raw" warforged or a 2nd-level trained one - that you would be paying more for warforged #2. Maybe not twice as much, but certainly more. (And I realize you were presenting the creation formula as a wacky argument, not necessarily as a serious one - I didn't mean to come across as too critical in my previous message.)
ArcTan 07-05-07, 08:20 PM	I do think it's logical to assume that if there IS variation in hit dice - if you can purchase a 1st-level "raw" warforged or a 2nd-level trained one - that you would be paying more for warforged #2. Maybe not twice as much, but certainly more. (And I realize you were presenting the creation formula as a wacky argument, not necessarily as a serious one - I didn't mean to come across as too critical in my previous message.) But once you buy the Warforged, he can learn and gain XP on his own and increase in level, which no other Construct we're aware of does.
The Dreaming Duck 07-05-07, 09:36 PM	But once you buy the Warforged, he can learn and gain XP on his own and increase in level, which no other Construct we're aware of does. Certainly. And clearly some (warforged) did, since IIRC the typical member of the Iron Watch in Stormreach is a 4th-level fighter. But that's what makes them a revelutionary breakthrough in magical science!
bigsnarf 06-25-07, 09:12 AM	How much would a warforged cost during the Last War?
Mai_ariti 06-25-07, 09:47 AM	This is SICK. . .but I like it. . . Hmmmm. . .I'd say they wouldn't be just avaliable as in "hey generic NPC, how about selling me a Warforged?" Rather I think that they would be more elite requiring that you either be associated with an army that uses them or influential enough that you could force a Dragonmarked house to sell you one. That being neither here nor there, an Iron Golem costs 150,000 gp and they are mindless. I would say that for a incredibly low grade model Int 3-4 it would be only about 225,000 gp but for the best that exist, with PC classes and the like it could be extremely expensive. Perhaps for a Warforged Fighter 1, 500,000 gp? It wouldn't be easy or cheap because then everyone would have one. Perhaps you should compare them to the cost for a boat or a powerful magic item. . .in the Last War, that is what they were.
Thomar_of_Uointer 06-25-07, 09:57 AM	It's more likely that you would hire them off from a house, mercenary style. As characters, you would use the standard hireling rules. A level 1 warforged warrior costs 3 sp per day (plus the cost of repairs when you turn it back in), and it only gets more expensive beyond that. Probably making it 3 sp per level per day for a warforged warrior, and 1 gp per level per day for a warforged fighter.
bigsnarf 06-25-07, 10:38 AM	I wouldnt let a player "buy" one in a Last War setting, this is something more for a character background. Mr Killbot is mad because he was bought for X amount of gold, told to kill without even knowing why. I view warforged as tragic hero's of the Last War.:rant:
Steely_Dan 06-25-07, 11:25 AM	When I first saw the thread title, I thought as in "tawdry".
obrysii 06-25-07, 11:31 AM	Perhaps for a Warforged Fighter 1, 500,000 gp? That's so beyond over the top. If an Ironwyrm Golem costs 220,000gps ... a Warforged likely costs (once the Creation Forge is at full power and birthing them quickly) ~1000gps. A single Warforged Fighter 1 for the cost of two Ironwyrm Golems? Not a chance. A single Ironwyrm Golem can turn the tide of a battle; two would almost ensure victory against low-level footsoldiers. A single Warforged Fighter will likely die in the opening salvo.
bigsnarf 06-25-07, 12:04 PM	Do the creation forges make the the mithril, darkwood and other components for the warforged out of thin air, or do they need a supply. The cost alone for materials are not worth it. Dont get me wrong, I love the killbots, I think we need more info thats all.
Anguish2 06-25-07, 12:21 PM	According to tFoW, I believe warforged were in the realm of 5,000gp Mind you, that was in massive batches purchased (on credit) by nations. I don't know what would happen for any sort of private citizen to acquire one. Surely it'd be higher. If you had contacts and offered high-ranking Brellish officials 10,000gp for one, they might be willing, on the basis that they could turn your cash around and buy themselves a pair of replacements. Or... personally profit while simultaneously not selling something nonrenewable. "Yeah, Sire d'Cannith? That order of 1,000 warforged soldiers? Can you make that 1,001 please? Thanks."
Edymnion 06-25-07, 01:00 PM	Yeah, the info is in Forge of War. 10,000 gp a piece, if bought individually, but with discounts that get them down to around 5-6k each if you buy them in bulk. Somebody remind me to pick up a six pack on the way home. :D
InkBlot 06-25-07, 02:51 PM	I wonder if that's consistent with Keith Baker's estimation of their price. I remember he once stated that the cost of buying a warforged was about twice the cost of fielding a well equiped fighter. Of course you save money in the long run on food and healing, warforged never tire, and the number of warforged you can field isn't limited by the birthrate of your nation.
AAB 06-25-07, 04:31 PM	I wonder if that's consistent with Keith Baker's estimation of their price. I remember he once stated that the cost of buying a warforged was about twice the cost of fielding a well equiped fighter. Of course you save money in the long run on food and healing, warforged never tire, and the number of warforged you can field isn't limited by the birthrate of your nation. what would be a well-equipped fighter? 1650gp masterwork fullplate 170gp masterwork heavy steel shield 315gp masterwork longsword 2135gp total for a nation buying warforged in bulk i guess 5000gp per head wouldn't be that outrageous. i'd probably still prefer the well-equipped fighter in most situations, but....
Sphere 06-25-07, 05:26 PM	what would be a well-equipped fighter? 1650gp masterwork fullplate 170gp masterwork heavy steel shield 315gp masterwork longsword 2135gp total for a nation buying warforged in bulk i guess 5000gp per head wouldn't be that outrageous. i'd probably still prefer the well-equipped fighter in most situations, but.... Don't forget housing, food, and travel expenses too.
Wharin 06-25-07, 06:00 PM	And on top of all of that, there is also the spared expense of loss of sentient life. While you could put a price on human life, I suppose, their real value is infinitely more. Of course, once it was established that warforged do indeed have souls and are living, it threw that out of the window, but hey, that was only *after* the war.
bigsnarf 06-25-07, 06:28 PM	Yep, warforged are cheap, no supply train or camp followers, they have their own armor. But do they come out of the forge trained? If you dont have to train em then their good rite out the box, batteries included.:P
Sphere 06-25-07, 06:38 PM	They learn fast, it takes them a few months to learn what takes a human a few years.
itwasntme 06-25-07, 06:58 PM	That's so beyond over the top. If an Ironwyrm Golem costs 220,000gps ... a Warforged likely costs (once the Creation Forge is at full power and birthing them quickly) ~1000gps. A single Warforged Fighter 1 for the cost of two Ironwyrm Golems? Not a chance. A single Ironwyrm Golem can turn the tide of a battle; two would almost ensure victory against low-level footsoldiers. A single Warforged Fighter will likely die in the opening salvo. your forgetting about the fact that my warforge can be a wizard your irongolem cant ... my warforge can have tastics and be intelligent your irongolem cant ... my warforge can level up and use cool manuvers and your irongolem cant ... my level 1 warforge could have AC of 25 which is enough to say to all level 1 characters or monsters (Get that nat 20 to hit me ... forget the extra damage you just need it to hit me normoly) Not to mention that when an irongolem gets down to 0 hp its gone a warforge gets down to -100 hp ok its not working but lets cast enough repair spells on it to make it up to 1 HP yay its working again lets go Not to mention that during the Last War they where the elite commandos that said "You Evil people go away *B!tch slaps the evil monsters/army* Haha we win you lose!" so to get a lean mean kicking machine to join you during that time would mean your in the army with them or you have a very good reason to make someone in that army want to sell some part of there army to you and if your there nme then forget it they just say "Die Die Die!" And your dead or running away From what i get from the last war they where the Beefy mofos that ran around and couldnt realy be stoped only Slowed down ... kinda like Armys ya ok i stoped you from taking over this town ... but the next day you'll be back to fight us again ... damn that sucks even if we can stop you from taking it over again you'll just be back over and over again and theres way to many WarForge to run around and disintergrate The CR of a IronGolem is 13 i would rather be a level 13 WarForge the warforge could be a wizard could be a fighter could be w/e ya the irongolem is beefy but just consider this WarForge -100 HP is brought back to life! YAY IronGolem -100HP Dead ... er someone want to spend the XP and Gold to make them? considering WarForges where being made like dirt back with there great founderays true the GREAT Arterfact was makeing them cheap like dirt but there still realy powerfull and you have to pay for the cost to let the guy let you use his Great Arterfact createing item make one for you so how much is Renting the greatest Arterfact of the time is going to cost? figure out how much renting the most powerfull arterfact item will cost and you have a good idea of how much there worth during the last war
obrysii 06-25-07, 10:18 PM	your forgetting about the fact that my warforge can be a wizard your irongolem cant ... My ironwyrm golem is completely immune to those spells, except Cold spells. my warforge can have tastics and be intelligent your irongolem cant ... It's as intelligent as I am: I control it myself. my warforge can level up and use cool manuvers and your irongolem cant ... My ironwyrm golem has a 24d10 breath weapon and can use that to heal itself. my level 1 warforge could have AC of 25 which is enough to say to all level 1 characters or monsters (Get that nat 20 to hit me ... forget the extra damage you just need it to hit me normoly) My ironwyrm golem has AC in the 40s. Not to mention that when an irongolem gets down to 0 hp its gone a warforge gets down to -100 hp ok its not working but lets cast enough repair spells on it to make it up to 1 HP yay its working again lets go No different from a golem. Not to mention that during the Last War they where the elite commandos that said "You Evil people go away *B!tch slaps the evil monsters/army* Haha we win you lose!" so to get a lean mean kicking machine to join you during that time would mean your in the army with them or you have a very good reason to make someone in that army want to sell some part of there army to you and if your there nme then forget it they just say "Die Die Die!" And your dead or running away From what i get from the last war they where the Beefy mofos that ran around and couldnt realy be stoped only Slowed down ... kinda like Armys ya ok i stoped you from taking over this town ... but the next day you'll be back to fight us again ... damn that sucks even if we can stop you from taking it over again you'll just be back over and over again and theres way to many WarForge to run around and disintergrate This is largely incoherent. I can't reply to something like that. The CR of a IronGolem is 13 i would rather be a level 13 WarForge Ironwyrm Golems are CR 18 IIRC, and are likely underrated for their CR, given their previous mentioned true spell immunity. the warforge could be a wizard could be a fighter could be w/e ya the irongolem is beefy but just consider this WarForge -100 HP is brought back to life! YAY IronGolem -100HP Dead ... er someone want to spend the XP and Gold to make them? considering WarForges where being made like dirt back with there great founderays This is no different from an ordinary golem. I really don't know what you're talking about. A Warforged is dead-dead at -10hp, however. As well: a friendly suggestion: please take active participation in your writing process ... the absolute disregard for spelling or grammar is rather ... distracting from any point you might have had.
bigsnarf 06-25-07, 10:38 PM	Yep, warforged are dead at -10, and the golem death thing is ultra cooool. But can it break-dance or do the robot like a warforged? NOOOOOOOO!!! But I wouldnt send warforged at a golem no matter how cheap they are.:hoppingma
The White Sorcerer 06-26-07, 03:21 AM	i'd probably still prefer the well-equipped fighter in most situations, but.... Except when he gets hungry, sleepy, sick, etc.
maollelujah 06-26-07, 08:23 AM	Yep, warforged are cheap, no supply train or camp followers, they have their own armor... Until they are captured and switch sides. I imagine that is how Karrnath got a hold on many of its warforged (captured from Cyre).
Edymnion 06-26-07, 08:36 AM	Until they are captured and switch sides. I imagine that is how Karrnath got a hold on many of its warforged (captured from Cyre).That or it, you know, bought them like everybody else. Karnnath has plenty of money, just no FOOD. Thats why they turned to undead in the first place.
bigsnarf 06-26-07, 09:26 AM	Karrnath warforged would be rare you think, maybe special units? Undead are alot cheaper to creat, but they are as dumb as a rock for the soldier types.:D
darkdragonk 06-26-07, 10:18 AM	There is a big disusion on this in the Ebberon General boards by the name of Warforged cost or somthing of the nature. It is acually one of the best debates I've seen on these boards for a while and it has'nt degraded to a flamewar yet. (at least, not to my knowledge)
The White Sorcerer 06-26-07, 10:38 AM	Until they are captured and switch sides. That applies to normal soldiers as well. Also, how does being captured automatically mean switching sides?
Cifer 06-26-07, 02:41 PM	Also, how does being captured automatically mean switching sides? For some reasons, warforged are not exceedingly loyal and switch sides quite easily when they are rendered inert and taken "prisoner". The prices have already been mentioned: About 5k when ordered in bulk, which makes up somewhere between 6 and 10 years of employing, feeding, housing and marching a normal (as in: not equipped with magic items, special materials or even masterwork stuff) human soldier - and that's the pure soldier we're talking about, not the economy that should be behind him and wants to get paid too. Oh, and Warforged usually start their career with two levels of fighter while normal people who have fought a while in the war and retire are often described as second level warriors.
Hellcow 06-26-07, 06:47 PM	For some reasons, warforged are not exceedingly loyal and switch sides quite easily when they are rendered inert and taken "prisoner". This is from Races of Eberron, and it's something I seriously disagree with. In my opinion - and certainly my presentation in other sources and my novels - the warforged understood war to be their purpose. It was the world they understood. While they might have little loyalty to the nationthey fought for, many would develop an attachment to the people they served with, which would end up serving the same purpose. To me, the idea that the moment you capture a warforged it suddenly says "Shucks, guess I'm working for you!" turns to the robot "I am a machine with no inherent loyalty or emotion" metaphor. In my opinion, the warforged initially serves because that's its function and what it enjoys; after a few years, it serves because it is familiar with the people it is working with and the people it is fighting. Aside from emotional attachments - both personal and "I've been saved a dozen times by Cyran artificers, and almost killed a dozen times by Karrns" - there's simple habit. I know the Cyran drills and commands. I recognize Cyran officers. It's what I'm used to. Fighting Karrnathis is what I've come to see as my purpose. Suddenly dropping that and fighting FOR Karrnath is going to be strange - all the patterns have changed. Certainly, a warforged COULD switch sides, especially if you got the humans it fought alongside to switch sides as well. On the other hand, if you killed all the humans it serve with, it could feel the same anger towards you that a human would - those were its fellow soldiers! A warforged who was regularly mistreated by its flesh-and-blood comrades might also try its luck with the other side. So sure, it can happen, just as it can happen with humans. But I have SERIOUS issues with the "All warforged switched sides all the time" statement from RoE, and you'll never see me use that in anything I write. As to the price of warforged, this has also been discussed extensively on this thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=869871). In my mind, the typical warforged is a 2nd-level fighter with the Adamantine Body feat. Aside from the fact that a 2nd-level fighter is considerably tougher than the standard soldier (1st-level warrior or commoner) of the Five Nations, don't forget that Adamantine Body isn't just the same as full plate - it's full plate with DR 2, the bonus one gets from medium adamantine armor... which raises the cost of armor by 10,000 gp. So even at 10,000 gp (the suggested per unit price, as opposed to 5-6K en masse), it's still something of a savings.
maollelujah 06-27-07, 09:26 AM	In my opinion, the warforged initially serves because that's its function and what it enjoys; after a few years, it serves because it is familiar with the people it is working with and the people it is fighting. Personally I don't see the problem. Warforged are created to fight and only fight on one side and not the other because they are bought by that side. They have no self-interest in who they are fighting for, except at the lowest level, their comrades. Most of their comrades are bound to be other Warforged. They might have some contact with fleshies, but in most cases it is only a NCO or low-level officer, as I don't see there being many fleshie-warforged intergrated units where each warforged bunks with a fleshie. In most cases these NCOs and Officers probably don't see the warforged as any better than 'weapons', good weapons I'll grant you, but still just weapons. And most likely given the most dangerous tasks. If they wouldn't switch sides after capture, then I can't see any reason why enemy inert warforged wouldn't just be destroyed on the spot.
The Dreaming Duck 06-27-07, 12:28 PM	Teach me to use the wrong computer.
Hellcow 06-27-07, 12:33 PM	If they wouldn't switch sides after capture, then I can't see any reason why enemy inert warforged wouldn't just be destroyed on the spot. I’d expect most TO be destroyed on the spot… if you have the time to do it. Certainly after a battle. The point is, do you have that time? In the midst of battle, with people charging at you, shooting at you, are you really going to stop to take the extra round or two required to hit that adamantine armored warforged a few more times (remember, he’s got DR and a chance to resist critical hits, so even a coup de grace may not do it) just to make absolutely sure he’s not coming back? It’s the exact same principle as a human soldier. You shoot the guy. He falls down bleeding. There’s a chance he’s going to stabilize, and that if his side wins the battle, they will recover his body and heal him. Do you take the time to shoot him again, or do you move on, reasoning that whatever the situation is he’s no longer a threat – and that there will always be time to eliminate the wounded after your victory? The point then is that warforged DO always stabilize, so they have a better chance to be recovered… but you still only recover them if you can win the battle. But yes, I consider it the same principle as finding a wounded human soldier. There’s a chance he’ll switch to your side. Do you take him as a prisoner? Or just kill him? Warforged are created to fight and only fight on one side and not the other because they are bought by that side. They have no self-interest in who they are fighting for, except at the lowest level, their comrades. And that’s where we differ in opinion. In The Dreaming Dark, Pierce recalls a long guerrilla campaign against the Valenar. For much of this, he’s essentially fighting on his own. If he truly didn’t care, why not desert on the spot, and just fight anything that he runs across? To me the issue is having a purpose. He doesn’t love Cyre the way a child born in it does. He doesn’t feel personal loyalty to the Queen of Cyre. But fighting for Cyre is his identity. It’s how he measures his self-worth and his success. He doesn’t just want to kill people, he wants to fulfill his purpose. And over his years of service, his purpose has become fixed in his mind: defend Cyre. If warforged are so unreliable that they’d switch sides at the drop of a hat, I can’t see them being created or purchased in large numbers. After a few large-scale defections, no one would trust them. One of the greatest advantages of the warforged is that the lack of need for food or sleep allows them to work in enemy territory. But if they’ll just switch sides the moment they encounter the enemy? You’ll NEVER let them out of your sight. To me, the point is that warforged have emotion. Warforged who are mistreated by their human comrades are certainly likely to switch sides, just as a human would in the same circumstances. Many of the warforged who work for the Lord of Blades are ‘forged who feel abused by humans. But if you capture one of THEM, they won’t suddenly start working for YOU – their loyalty to the Lord of Blades is strong, just as they were once dedicated to their sides in war. But warforged who were treated well and took pride in their work would have loyalty to that purpose, if not necessarily to the ruler of the country. Their identity is based ON that function – it’s more than a simple desire to kill. Anyhow, I won’t argue the point further. Clearly we don’t see eye to eye. But in my opinion – and whatever I write – warforged can have dedication and loyalty to a purpose, whether it’s a religion, a messianic leader, a comrade, or a national cause. Their loyalty may be very different from that of a human, but it can be just as strong or even stronger, precisely because they have nothing else. The human has to worry about his family. He can be distracted with promises of pleasure. For the warforged, the battle is his life. If he has devoted the last ten years to battling you, built his identity around “fighting Karrns”, he won’t suddenly flip that into “helping Karrns and fighting Cyrans” – unless he’s been pushed into it by mistreatment on behalf of the people he’s been fighting to defend. They might have some contact with fleshies, but in most cases it is only a NCO or low-level officer, as I don't see there being many fleshie-warforged intergrated units where each warforged bunks with a fleshie. Again, we’re on completely different pages. In my opinion warforged were frequently integrated into “fleshie” units. Obviously they wouldn’t bunk with humans, because they wouldn’t bunk at all. Which is precisely the point. A squad of warforged provide a unit with tireless sentries who can guard the force all night. If they’re trained in Craft, they can work on equipment maintenance all night. As noted in the other thread, adamantine warforged make great shock troops: I don’t need an entire ARMY of them, but a squad of adamantine warforged with greatswords will make great pikebreakers to clear the path for my flesh-and-blood soldiers. Given your opinion that warforged can be easily convinced to switch sides, I’d think you of all people would see the value of NOT fielding entire armies of warforged, but rather using them as elite forces to supplement human armies. Far from a one-to-one “Human bunks with warforged” situation, I’d think you’d see a small unit of warforged within a largely human force. And yes, they WOULD be given the most dangerous tasks. What determines their loyalty is whether the other soldiers appreciate them for this or make them feel like worthless dirt. Do they feel like a valued part of the team? If *I* was in a unit and the adamantine warforged was going to be the one charging in first and clearing the path for me, I'd certainly cheer him on, not say "Get out there and die for me, scum." Where you would see entire forces of warforged would be for long-distance operations with minimal supplies. But again, that’s only really possible if you can trust your warforged to operate behind enemy lines; if not, you’re just sending the enemy a very expensive gift-wrapped package. Anyhow, we've got different opinions, and that's fine. I don't have time to argue, so I'll leave it here (and try to resist the urge to post again!).
bigsnarf 06-27-07, 12:54 PM	:drool: :drool: Warforged also make great sappers, working around the clock to dig tunnels under walls. Also since they dont breath you can use them in "beach landings". Just drop them off a mile from the beach and they can just walk up on the enemy. Heck, every one should play warforged, they rule!
maollelujah 06-27-07, 02:30 PM	If warforged are so unreliable that they’d switch sides at the drop of a hat, I can’t see them being created or purchased in large numbers. After a few large-scale defections, no one would trust them. One of the greatest advantages of the warforged is that the lack of need for food or sleep allows them to work in enemy territory. But if they’ll just switch sides the moment they encounter the enemy? You’ll NEVER let them out of your sight. I don't advocate that warforged are unreliable, nor natural traitors. I agree they have loyalty and they don't switch sides out of the blue. But I do think they would change sides after being captured, because 'fighting' is the thing they know about. To me, the point is that warforged have emotion. Of course they have emotion, but they aren't human, and they don't have much life experience outside the war (until recently). They are creatures built for war and trained for war with only manufactured ties to whoever their fighting for. I imagine it isn't the fighting for Cyre that drives them, but the fighting itself. It is what defines them. I essentially see them more mercenary in their outlook. Not in the sense they will fight at the highest bidder, nor that for a little money they will give up the keys to the castle they are guarding. Rather I see them not suceptible to bribes and would fight to the death rather than give up the castle. But once inert and revived, I think the desire to have a purpose, leads them to 'fight for Karrnath'. And over his years of service, his purpose has become fixed in his mind: defend Cyre. I do agree with you on this point. Older warforged might start to align strongly with one country or another, and might not switch sides and if revived they might escape back to Cyre. But as most Warforged are probably younger than older, I don't think these would be the majority. If *I* was in a unit and the adamantine warforged was going to be the one charging in first and clearing the path for me, I'd certainly cheer him on, not say "Get out there and die for me, scum." You might cheer for him, but that doesn't mean you don't see them as equals. Most people I imagine see warforged as something less, but better to have them on our side than theirs.
Hellcow 06-27-07, 03:08 PM	You might cheer for him, but that doesn't mean you don't see them as equals. Most people I imagine see warforged as something less, but better to have them on our side than theirs. Oh, inner perception is another matter entirely. And do I want him around AFTER the war? Also a very different question. But if I'm a rank and file soldier and he's breaking the line for me? AND if he could easily break my neck (which is why he's breaking the line for me)? I'm not going to go out of my way to be a jerk to him. I'm not going to be his best friend, invite him to join me for dinner (he doesn't eat, anyway), or anything like that. You're right, I think of him as a weapon. It's like the company tank. But just look at the way units DO get attached to things like tanks and airplanes. I may want to stencil the company emblem on the warforged, get an image of the unit gathered around the warforged, and so on. I may not think of him as a PERSON - but he is a weapon, and he's the weapon that allowed us to break through the enemy lines at Gorlan Bridge. For this reason, I actually tend to think warforged would be treated better than, for example, goblinoid mercenaries. With warforged, the soldier has no preconceptions and is going to be more inclined to think of them as "things". You may not think of the arbalest as an equal, but are you going to spend a lot of time insulting it? With things like goblins, you DO run into racial tensions running back before the founding of Galifar and anger over Darguun. Cyre may have continued to employ small bands of Valenar after they claimed their kingdom, but you can bet most Cyran soldiers didn't like working with the elves. Warforged are essentially neutral; you may not think of them as equals. You may not want them around when you DON'T have a need for an arbalest. But you don't have a history of conflict with constructs or anything like that; they're soldiers, they're GOOD soldiers, and they're fighting for your side. They are creatures built for war and trained for war with only manufactured ties to whoever their fighting for. I imagine it isn't the fighting for Cyre that drives them, but the fighting itself. It is what defines them. Whereas by the warforged dragonshard, the point is that what happens in their formative years is very important. The first year of the warforged's life sets its outlook. The thing about mercenaries is that they fight for a reason: usually gold. The warforged DIDN'T seek gold. Nor did warforged operating without human supervision decie to just go rogue and kill whatever they could find. It's in battle that they find satisfaction - but they still want a context and sense of purpose. "I am fighting to defend these good people from these bad people." When captured by the bad people, they still think of their purpose as "Fight these bad people." Now, if they really haven't had enough time to identify with their side in war, or if the people employing them have given clear cause to be thought of AS the bad people, that's fine. But as I said, the warforged have emotion and human intelligence. They aren't children. They KNOW you're their enemy... and fighting the enemy is what they do. Again, it may be religion, faith in a messianic figure like the Lord of Blades, attachment to comrades in arms, anger towards a long-time enemy, or something else. But I believe that warforged seek a context for battle, to feel that they have a reason to fight. A human may just see the warforged as an arbalest, but it's not just an arbalest, a weapon to be handed from one master to the next. It has feelings and a desire for its life to have meaning. It's because the war is over and that meaning has been stripped away that many have turned to the Lord of Blades. Now what I could certainly see is somewone trained in the psychology of warforged who's purpose IS to turn captured warforged, especially "young" warforged - playing on that emotional inexperience and redirecting it. But my point is that would take work. It would probably be easier than brainwashing a human soldier, but it would still BE brainwashing; you don't just flip a switch and suddenly he's working for you. But given the ease of capturing wounded warforged, I think most nations would have "warforged brainwashers" - quite probably mercenary heirs of House Cannith. Again, I feel this is born out in the modern day. Does the warforged working for the Lord of Blades suddenly start working for you if you capture him? If your warforged PC is captured by the bad guys, do you suddenly turn on the rest of the party? I can easily see humans EXPECTING that sort of behavior from warforged, precisely because they think of them as weapons. But the point to me is that while battle what makes the warforged feel alive, they need a sense of purpose driving them - otherwise, you'd have seen constant desertion and insubordination. But here I am posting again, when i don't have time and have already agreed to disagree. *sigh*.
Hellcow 06-27-07, 05:02 PM	I don't advocate that warforged are unreliable, nor natural traitors. I agree they have loyalty and they don't switch sides out of the blue. But I do think they would change sides after being captured, because 'fighting' is the thing they know about... once inert and revived, I think the desire to have a purpose, leads them to 'fight for Karrnath'. Reading your post again, I see where you're coming from, Maollelujah. Clearly we both agree on major points, notably the warforged desire to have a sense of purpose. As I said, under the right circumstances I can see them switching sides. So the issue is, when the warforged is captured and revived, does he feel it is completely impossible for him to continue with his original purpose? Does the new suggested purpose directly clash with the old? For example, if both Thrane and Cyre are fighting Karrnath, I see it being far easier for the Thrane brainwasher to convince the captured Cyran warforged to fight on his side... because the warforged is still fighting Karrns. He *doesn't* necessarily understand or care about the country - but he's come to recognize his purpose as "fighting Karrns". Thus, if he's still fighting Karrns, but with different allies, that's going to make far more sense than suddenly helping KARRNS fight Cyrans, something that clashes with the image he's built of himself. It doesn't even matter to him that they are Karrns, in the sense of "citizens of the country of Karrnath"; I see it as more "The people in black and red with the wolf logo". Essentially, good guys and bad guys. The warforged wants to believe he's fighting for the good guys against the bad guys. If he's captured by a third party who says "Help US fight the bad guys", that can work. But if he's captured BY the bad guys and asked to fight the good guys, I believe that he'll resist - that it goes against the self-image he's created for himself. I'd expect him to try to escape and/or fight his captors... because they are those bad guys he's dedicated his life to fighting. As I said, I don't see the warforged losing sight of their purpose immediately simply because they are captured. Again, will the servant of the Lord of Blades abandon his cause so easily? Will a player character? If he perceives his cause to be lost (for example, Cyre has been utterly destroyed) or sees the new goal as compatible with the old, maybe. If he's been mistreated or abused by his former allies, sure. But as long as he still can carry out his original purpose and still believes it to be a worthy cause, I'd expect him to fight for it. But again, we overlap on many points. I understand what you're saying, it's just not the way I run 'em. You may be able to convince a warforged to switch sides, but I don't see it as a trivial thing.
gensuke626 06-27-07, 09:11 PM	Somehow I just got an episode from Star Trek: Voyager stuck in my head. Nemesis, the episode where a group of humanoids brainwash Chakotay into fighting their war for them. I can see a small group of Karrnathi agents (Disguised as a Cyran Recon unit) reviving a warforged and fooling the warforged into believeing that there is a force of Karranathi troops disguising themselves as a Cyran Infantry unit, just waiting for the most oppertune time to strike at the heart of the Cyran army and destroy it from the inside out. They'd march and 'Try' to regroup with the main army, but less than a day before what is supposed to be the decisive battle the unit is 'Ambushed' by Karrnathi skirmishers and the rest of the unit dies, the leader of the unit entrusting the Warforged to "Destroy the Traitorous unit." and telling him "There isn't enough time to inform the general. Only you can complete the mission." with his 'dying breath'.
ArcTan 06-28-07, 12:06 AM	what would be a well-equipped fighter? 1650gp masterwork fullplate 170gp masterwork heavy steel shield 315gp masterwork longsword 2135gp total for a nation buying warforged in bulk i guess 5000gp per head wouldn't be that outrageous. i'd probably still prefer the well-equipped fighter in most situations, but.... When you get the Warforged, you also get two Fighter levels and an unswerving and unthinking loyalty. Plus you never pay for his food or wages or entertainment or anything except the most minimal shelter. A Human Fighter 2, by contrast, is going to be a super-elite among elites who's going to demand the best grub, cost a ton of money to train, lay claim to part of the spoils of battle, etc. The price then becomes comparable, especially over time. (By contrast an ordinary crappy Commoner 1 conscript is no cost at all next to a Warforged, but will also fall like dry grass to a scythe when faced with Warforged troops, so hey.)
ArcTan 06-28-07, 12:09 AM	Yep, warforged are cheap, no supply train or camp followers, they have their own armor. But do they come out of the forge trained? If you dont have to train em then their good rite out the box, batteries included.:P They don't come out of the Forge trained, but House Cannith trained them as a group as standard operating procedure. Letting Warforged wander around untrained would be way too much of liability to ever let happen. They *are* a lot easier to train than humans, since they're highly psychologically malleable in the first few weeks after their forging.
ArcTan 06-28-07, 12:17 AM	your forgetting about the fact that my warforge can be a wizard your irongolem cant ... Almost no Warforged *were* Wizards. It wasn't what they were intended to do and few probably had the natural aptitude for it. (They did have to be trained -- they didn't come fresh out of the forge knowing everything.) The vast majority of Warforged on the block to be sold were Fighter 2, which is impressive next to a Human Warrior 1 soldier, but nothing at all even *close* to an Iron Golem's CR 13. A Warforged level 15 Fighter or level 16 Wizard would certainly be more powerful than an Iron Golem, sure. A Warforged could only get this way the same way a Human could -- by being an exceptional individual with a long, full life of adventuring who levelled up by gaining XP over time. I.e. not a Warforged you could buy; any Warforged you came across with this degree of power would be a PC or something, and not for sale. my warforge can have tastics and be intelligent your irongolem cant ... This would make a Warforged Fighter 2 better than a CR 2 mindless Construct. *Not* better than the CR 13 Iron Golem with its true Construct traits, DR, and *magic immunity*, for cripes' sake. my warforge can level up and use cool manuvers and your irongolem cant ... ...Which takes a huge amount of time and effort gaining XP on the part of the Warforged, and most Warforged will never do. my level 1 warforge could have AC of 25 which is enough to say to all level 1 characters or monsters (Get that nat 20 to hit me ... forget the extra damage you just need it to hit me normoly) Doesn't matter if the only person who could *afford* that Warforged would be an Epic-level character, which is what you're setting it up to be with your ridiculous purchase price. Not to mention that when an irongolem gets down to 0 hp its gone a warforge gets down to -100 hp ok its not working but lets cast enough repair spells on it to make it up to 1 HP yay its working again lets go Untrue. A Warforged at -10 HP is simply dead, and cannot be revived through simple repair/healing magic any more than a Human corpse can. You have to cast a resurrection spell on it. The fact that you can is handy, sure, but hardly makes them indestructible -- resurrection in Eberron is expensive and rare. Not to mention that during the Last War they where the elite commandos that said "You Evil people go away *B!tch slaps the evil monsters/army* Haha we win you lose!" so to get a lean mean kicking machine to join you during that time would mean your in the army with them or you have a very good reason to make someone in that army want to sell some part of there army to you Right, but the price has to be within a reasonable range that an army could *afford*. and if your there nme then forget it they just say "Die Die Die!" And your dead or running away What are you, like, twelve? From what i get from the last war they where the Beefy mofos that ran around and couldnt realy be stoped only Slowed down ... kinda like Armys ya ok i stoped you from taking over this town ... but the next day you'll be back to fight us again ... damn that sucks even if we can stop you from taking it over again you'll just be back over and over again and theres way to many WarForge to run around and disintergrate There wouldn't be "way too many" if they cost over 100,000 GP to make. There'd be hardly any. The CR of a IronGolem is 13 i would rather be a level 13 WarForge the warforge could be a wizard could be a fighter could be w/e Sure, but you can't buy a level 13 Warforged. It's like how you can't hire a level 15 Hobgoblin mercenary, even though you can hire Hobgoblins in general. Anything at level 11 or above in D&D is considered "legendary". A Warforged that powerful would be a *legend*, well known and well respected among the population at large. Warforged don't just come out of the mold like that, and no more than a few of such legends exist. ya the irongolem is beefy but just consider this WarForge -100 HP is brought back to life! YAY Only if you cast raise dead, which is not easy and not cheap. IronGolem -100HP Dead ... er someone want to spend the XP and Gold to make them? considering WarForges where being made like dirt back with there great founderays[/quote] If they were "made like dirt" they wouldn't cost 100,000 GP. Do you not understand what supply and demand is? true the GREAT Arterfact was makeing them cheap like dirt but there still realy powerfull and you have to pay for the cost to let the guy let you use his Great Arterfact createing item make one for you so how much is Renting the greatest Arterfact of the time is going to cost? figure out how much renting the most powerfull arterfact item will cost and you have a good idea of how much there worth during the last war You're not "renting" the Creation Forge at all, any more than I'm "renting" Toyota's auto factories when I buy a Toyota. You're buying a finished product. The cost of the finished product of the Creation Forge is, in fact, about 5,000-6,000 GP.
bigsnarf 06-28-07, 09:44 AM	There seems to be a bit of conflict between warforged lovers and wizards with their beloved golems. A warforged can be a PC where a golen cant. A golem is a pure monster in mellee, going bezerk, tons of immunities, and a buff DR. One on one a golem vs a warforged I will put money on a golem, unless its a group of warforged adventurers, then they would stand a chance.
AntiSean 06-28-07, 02:23 PM	They sure are! They rarely, if ever, order any food or beverage, and they're lousy tippers, too.
Need_A_Life 06-30-07, 01:24 PM	The price is well-established in Forge of War as being 10,000gp for a single unit or 60,000-72,000gp for a set of 12. That being said, the golems would usually not be an option. You have to remember that each golem requires a caster of the appropiate level (usually minimum level 10, which is legendary in Eberron) whereas the warforged don't require anything more than a d'Cannith smuck, who needs only a while with his Least Mark of Making and a Creation Forge. Of course, Dragon #341 introduced a bunch of weaker golems varying in required caster level from CL 5 to CL 7, most of whom are many times more effective than a warforged... But guess what? House Cannith didn't care about Paper Golems or Wax Golems, nor did they take Junk Golems seriously because they could (thanks to pure copy-catting) simply push the proverbial button and a twelve-pack would emerge from the forge. --- As for warforged loyalty, it'd depend on the circumstances. As Mr. Keith Baker said, Pierce from the Dreaming Dark series would not 'betray' Cyre, any more than a human in the same position would. I am, however, playing a warforged who is a mere 1 year of age (note: this makes him a creation made after the Treaty of Thronehold) and he only has good relations with two of the 7 people in the party, so if they fall he's far more likely to turn to the other side, hoping for that experience to be better.
Zardnaar 07-01-07, 07:00 AM	At 10000 gp each they're not worth it and I doubt the Eberron econimy could support them being massed produced. That price may be based on a lvl 2 Warforged with the Adamantine body feat but 10000gp is alot of money for the average noble and would be enough to probably outfit around 100 humans for a years service. It makes no sense another words. Not to many people will have Full Plate armor due the expense of it. A cheap warforged at 5-6K (mass produced X12) is 3-4 times the price of Full PLate armor. You could order 200 odd at 5000gp each or build a 1 million gp castle. Go figure.
Omnicronwarlord 07-01-07, 07:17 AM	At 10000 gp each they're not worth it and I doubt the Eberron econimy could support them being massed produced. That price may be based on a lvl 2 Warforged with the Adamantine body feat but 10000gp is alot of money for the average noble and would be enough to probably outfit around 100 humans for a years service. It makes no sense another words. Not to many people will have Full Plate armor due the expense of it. A cheap warforged at 5-6K (mass produced X12) is 3-4 times the price of Full PLate armor. You could order 200 odd at 5000gp each or build a 1 million gp castle. Go figure. Yes, but 1: Warforged are permanent (or atleast un til the treaty of thronehold, but no one knew that would happen). You don't have to pay them over again in a year. 2. Those 100 people you mentioned are all commoners, lvl 1 (maybe warriors level 1 at the most). There armor class couldn't be much higher than 15. The one warforged could take down twenty of them probably. 3. Warforged don't have to be fed, and don't have off days, and never sleep (awsome for a guard).
Zardnaar 07-01-07, 08:18 AM	But 5-10K is alot of money in D&D terms. I'm not saying warforged are cheap but thats to much money. I'm sure you could find an NPC who is level 2-4 for alot cheaper than that. You could buy 1 warforged or 3-5 +1 bows or around 6-10 +1 shields for example. Even a lvl 2 warforged w/adamantine armor won't last that long on the field of battle. It doesn't make any sense when a cheap level 1 warrior oin a warhorse is alot cheaper and has a reasonable chance at killing the warforged. Go find a human fighter who is level 2 and give him half that number in expensive equipment and see who wins the fight. What wil be more cost effective? In an extreme long run the warforged might be cheaper but not many people will have that amount of cash to purchase them. Its the same reason most people get a mortgage to buy a house. Its cheaper to buy the house but not many people have the cash to do so. In fact at 5-10K each warforged is probably more expensive than the average D&D house. A noble with 1000gp income a year which is alot of money in D&D standards (20gp/week) has to use 5-10 years income to buy one.
Neutronium_Dragon 07-01-07, 11:40 AM	The Forge of War sort of contradicts itself. It prices a shield guardian at 10,000 GP, and says that a batch of a dozen warforged can be created for the same price, which would put their individual cost in the area of 800 GP. It then suggests 5,000 GP for an individual warforged. So it would seem that if you order in bulk, they come out many times cheaper than getting one made individually. At around 800 GP each for the batch of a dozen, they're definitely cheaper than maintaining heavy infantry. Even if you assume that Cannith put a surcharge on that rather than selling at cost, that's still a pretty good price.
Ozymandias V. 07-01-07, 12:33 PM	...Shield Guardians cost 120,000gp to purchase. <_<
The Dreaming Duck 07-01-07, 01:30 PM	I'm sure you could find an NPC who is level 2-4 for alot cheaper than that. Really? Where? This is Eberron; most NPCs use NPC classes. Sure, you could get Valenar, but we've never seen a price listed for them, and I'm guessing they aren't cheap. You have to CONTINUE to pay for them every pay period, as opposed to the one-shot you pay and it's over for the warforged. And odds are you don't get one Valenar, you get a warband, and if you're buying in bulk the warforged is less than 10,000 gp. You could buy 1 warforged or 3-5 +1 bows or around 6-10 +1 shields for example. What difference does this make? Give your 1st level warrior a +1 bow and +1 shield. All it's going to do is make his BAB the same as my 2nd level warforged (assuming we have equal strength, which since I have the elite array, isn't a safe assumption), and even with the shield odds are he doesn't match my adamantine AC. Plus he's got lower hit points and no DR, so he'll wield those weapons for a shorter time before dying. Even a lvl 2 warforged w/adamantine armor won't last that long on the field of battle. It doesn't make any sense when a cheap level 1 warrior oin a warhorse is alot cheaper and has a reasonable chance at killing the warforged. Can you do the math on this? I've given my math on the warforged on the battlefield in an earlier post. I'm not seeing the 1st-level warrior - who can easily be killed by the warforged in a single attack - as posing a tremendous threat to the adamantine, elite array warforged. I certainly wouldn't give him "a reasonable chance". Even if he gets a critical hit, the warforged has a one in four chance of negating it. Go find a human fighter who is level 2 and give him half that number in expensive equipment and see who wins the fight. What wil be more cost effective? But the point is that there aren't many level 2 human fighters to find. If you can FIND the human fighter, good for you. Do it. The whole point of the warforged is that you can get all the fighter-2s you can afford - something that simply isn't available in the wider world. Though bear in mind that you're going to have to continue paying the human fighter over time; once you pay for the warforged, you own him. A noble with 1000gp income a year which is alot of money in D&D standards (20gp/week) has to use 5-10 years income to buy one. Which is exactly why he doesn't do it. He provides his king with a force of 100 commoner-1 levies, 20 warrior-1 militiamen, and maybe a warrior 2-3 knight commander, the best soldier in his demesne. That's his contribution to the national army. He doesn't pay anything (well, aside from the fees of outfitting these troops). If the KING, with access to the treasury of the nation, decides to spend a million gold pieces on warforged, he can probably do it. Just like today - how many private individuals can afford to buy a cruise missile? Yet how many cruise missiles does the army have? I doubt anyone just wandered over to the Cannith forgehold to pick out a new '94 warforged for the family. But nations have gold, and likely also took out vast loans from House Kundarak. And buying a warforged was seen as buying a weapon: a tool that would be the property of your nation indefinitely, unlike paying for a mercenary who provides temporary service and whose loyalty is questionable (as seen in Darguun and Valenar). And just as proof of wealth, Kaius himself is equipped with gear totaling around 110,000 gp in value, and let's face it, he doesn't see battle very often. We're not dealing with nobles who make 1,000 gp a year; thats where are peasants come from. It's the king who's going to pay for our warforged. And as has been noted, it's already LESS expensive than a suit of adamantine full plate with DR 2, not even accounting for someone to wear it - less than half the cost when you add the volume discount... and since we're talking about nations buying armies, not individuals purchasing single warforged, that volume discount needs to be considered. So while I disliked it at first, I think it actually makes sense.
bigsnarf 07-01-07, 02:39 PM	:eek: Also with the forged you pay for loyal warriors with the personality of a onion(at first) and they only think about killing and learning to kill better. They have no family or friends so their mind is on the job at hand. You can tell a forged to stay on watch at a watch tower and thats his job for the next year or so and he does it with out moving a inch, a humaniod could'nt.
bigsnarf 07-01-07, 02:40 PM	WARFORGED'S RULE!!!
Ozymandias V. 07-01-07, 04:05 PM	The plural of warforged is warforged, dude. Like deer or moose.
Zardnaar 07-01-07, 04:16 PM	I still think people are over estimating the price of supporting troops. Logistics weren't that important until recent times. An army would live of the land likely by plundeirng the nearest peasants farm. Also warforged get a bilk discount yet why can't the king get a bulk discount on food for the troops? Hell the King can probably just order his subjects to turn over more food via tax ad get away with it- he is the king after all. After 100+ years of war it wouild be logical to assume nations could turn out trained fighters. Maybe only level 1 but still. Warriors represent militia, tribesmen, levies etc. A professional soldier is likely a fighter an due to the last war there should be alot of them floating around. It shouldn't take that long to train up a level 1 fighter- 6 weeks maybe in some sort of boot camp. Warforged should be expensive but 5-10K is to much. You could buy 200-400 of them or a 1 million gp castle, and 1 million on hiring troops/defeneces/spellcasters to defend it. Even a King shouldn't have several million gp lying around to spend on Warforged. That 200-400 unit could also be 20 odd skyships and makes a Knight look cheap. Have a look in the DMG and findout what level of NPC has 5000-10000gp worth of equipment. Theres a reason why Adamantine Full plate isn't given to every 2nd level fighter- its to fricken dear. Each warforged is wroth 3-6 suits of full plate armor. Explainations like normal troops are unavailable or you can't train up a knight (2nd-4th level fighter +full plates+horse) are weak given the war lasted 100 years.
The Dreaming Duck 07-01-07, 06:15 PM	An army would live of the land likely by plundeirng the nearest peasants farm. Also warforged get a bilk discount yet why can't the king get a bulk discount on food for the troops? Which is where the "hundred years of war" comes in. After a hundred years of troops plundering farms, there's no food left to plunder. If you read the Forge of War, you'll see that all five nations except Breland suffered food shortages at one period or another. And the king gets bulk discounts on warforged because it's more efficient to produce them in large numbers. In the case of food, they were already at capacity. The issue isn't whether you can afford to feed your troops; it's whether you have anything to feed them at all. Warforged didn't even come into use until the end of the war, when these famines were at their worst. If there's no food to be bought for any price, a soldier that doesn't need to eat becomes a good investment. After 100+ years of war it wouild be logical to assume nations could turn out trained fighters. Maybe only level 1 but still. Warriors represent militia, tribesmen, levies etc. A professional soldier is likely a fighter an due to the last war there should be alot of them floating around. It shouldn't take that long to train up a level 1 fighter- 6 weeks maybe in some sort of boot camp. In your world, perhaps. This isn't your world. It's Eberron. It's stated time and again throughout the ECS: Most NPCs use NPC classes (that's why they're called NPC classes, after all), and anyone with a PC class is a remarkable individual. This is echoed in the army composition section of The Forge of War: you may have elite forces with PC classes, but the rank and file are warrior 1 or commoner 1. The commoner reflects the volunteer levy; the warrior is your soldier who's gone through boot camp. The fighter isn't just churned out through boot camp; he represents someone who has a greater potential - the foundations of what it takes to be a hero. In this, Eberron is just echoing standard D&D demographics by the DMG. You know, where 99% of the world are 1st-level NPC-classed characters, and 94% of them are commoners? It's clearly established in Eberron that the typical trained soldier in the war was a 1st-level warrior; the typical veteran was (and is) a 2nd-level warrior; and that characters above this level of skill are remarkable. They're out there - The Redcloak Battalion, the Breland Dragoons, the Knights Phantom - but you can't just say "Oh, we need a few dozen more of those guys. Order them for me, will you?" Most people just don't have that level of skill. If you're going to argue the price given in an Eberron supplement, you need to take into consideration the foundations of that price: a world in which the typical soldier is a 1st level commoner or warrior, where you can't just train a character to possess the skills of a fighter - but where you can buy one with the skills of a 2nd-level fighter. In my opinion, the SKILLS of the warforged are nearly as valuable as anything else. The ability to say "I want a squad of rangers specializing in stealth and archery" - and to get it with a one-time payment, without having to worry about salary or anything else - is a tremendous draw. The fact that they don't eat or sleep is just a bonus. So in your world, you may be able to train loads of fighters - but you can't do it in Eberron. Theres a reason why Adamantine Full plate isn't given to every 2nd level fighter- its to fricken dear. First off, as we've just said, you're assuming you have higher-level fighters to give it to. In fact, you don't - at least, not many of them. Second, let's emphasize again: for less than half the price of the adamantine full plate - less than four suits of standard full plate - you're getting a skilled soldier trained with the skill set you want, with adamantine full plate at less than half its normal cost - knowing that he won't need to eat or sleep - and that you won't have to pay for him again. Beyond this, the warforged didn't replace common soldiers. For every warforged soldier you had, you probably had 100 commoners and 20 warriors. Nations weren't abandoning human forces to fight entirely with warforged, any more than our modern wars are fought entirely with drones or missiles. They were supplementing their human forces with warforged, used in positions where warforged would be most valuable. Explainations like normal troops are unavailable or you can't train up a knight (2nd-4th level fighter +full plates+horse) are weak given the war lasted 100 years. Believe what you will: It's still the foundation of the setting, and in line with standard demographics (most of the world is first level!). Most common people simply don't have the potential to advance far in level or to master a PC class. People get spoiled because they're used to high-level PC class characters. But if most people in the world are 1st level commoners, that 2nd-level warrior is a bad-*****. He doesn't NEED to be a 4th-level fighter - and if he IS, he's a SERIOUS bad-*****. That's the reality of Eberron. The 4th-level rangers of the Valenar are considered to be, per capita, the deadliest mercenary force on Eberron. YOU may think that it's trivial to put such a group together; but in Eberron, it's not. With that said, per Forge of War, nations did have access to some PC class soldiers; they're simply largely elite. Looking to cavalry, by Forge of War Brelish, Cyran, and Karrnathi cavalry soldiers were often fighters, though notably 1st-level fighters. Of course, Aundairian and Thranish cavalry soldiers were actually warriors. So your theoretical team of 2nd-4th level fighters is an elite unit. Certainly some existed, but they WEREN'T the common forces at the disposal of the kings. You couldn't just say "We need more 2nd level fighters, and we need them NOW!" - unless you bought warforged. You may not like it, but it's the basis of the setting: even in this age of war, the vast bulk of the people are 1st-2nd level warriors and commoners. The price of the warofrged isn't just about armor and the construct effects: it's about the ability to outright purchase an elite soldier. They didn't REPLACE the common soldiers, because they were too expensive and because there just weren't enough of them - but they certainly had their role.
Shady314 07-01-07, 06:30 PM	Logistics weren't that important until recent times. No logistics were always very important. As Napoleon said "an army marches on it's stomach." It was just a rare Medieval commander that paid much attention to it. And it was to the army's detriment that they ignored it.
Zardnaar 07-01-07, 07:06 PM	No logistics were always very important. As Napoleon said "an army marches on it's stomach." It was just a rare Medieval commander that paid much attention to it. And it was to the army's detriment that they ignored it. From the decline of the Roman empire until reasonably modern times armies didn't really have reliable logistics. Sieges were often broken when the besiegers ran out of food. Itsimportant yest but due to various reasons armies typically had poor logistics up until several hundred years ago. I'm not saying you can churn out hundred of mid level fighters on demand but it shouldn't be to hard to train a lvl 1 fighter. You can give me alot of in game explainations why but its a bit of a cop out. Why can Eberron with low level Artificers etc have skyships and lightning rail but can't train up a 1st level fighter in a reasonable amount of time is beyond me. Warforged are an excellent choice for soldiers but are to damn expensive when compared to other options. See the Stronghold builders guide or stormwrack for example. 1-2 Warforged or a new caravel. Animate dead at 25 gp a skeliton. I'm not expecting reality here but they're a poor investment for the amount of resources required.
The Dreaming Duck 07-01-07, 07:31 PM	I'm not saying you can churn out hundred of mid level fighters on demand but it shouldn't be to hard to train a lvl 1 fighter. You can give me alot of in game explainations why but its a bit of a cop out. Why can Eberron with low level Artificers etc have skyships and lightning rail but can't train up a 1st level fighter in a reasonable amount of time is beyond me. Artificers are even less common than fighters. What Eberron did was to introduce the magewright - an NPC class trained in the use of arcane magic. THESE are the people who produce the bulk of magic of Eberron. It's not a cop out. It's a fundamentally different approach to what NPC and PC classes mean - one that holds closer to the original DMG demographics. You're approaching this from the standpoint that a warrior is a poor soldier. Eberron doesn't. Eberron says that a COMMONER is a poor soldier, though still used in large numbers in war. A warrior, on the other hand, represents a trained, skilled soldier. A fighter represents something else entirely. It's not just training; training gets you warriors. Fighters are exceptional people with a level of skill beyond the norm. Your boot camp MAY produce fighters, but you can't rely on it, any more than a piano teacher can expect every student to be Mozart or a science teacher can expect to churn out Einsteins. You HOPE that out of this particular crop, some of your new soldiers will have the skills of fighters. But it's not a question of "Eh, just give this guy the crappy warrior training - give that one the fighter training." They all go through boot camp - whether you have what it takes to be a fighter is in YOU, and by demographics and all the suppliments, not many people have it. That's what makes PCs exceptional - because they always have PC classes, and because they can advance to any level and at any speed. Most NPCs use NPC classes, and most never rise above first level. They are the baseline. The fighter is the exceptional warrior. The cleric is the exceptional adept (who is herself fairly exceptional). The wizard or artificer is the exceptional magewright. You're coming from the view that a fighter is a nobody, that 6 weeks training gets you a fighter. Eberron takes the view that NO amount of training can make you a fighter if you don't have that inner spark. Training can make you a warrior - but PC classes are always exceptional. Even Breland's elite Redcloak Battalion uses NPC class levels... not surprising, since after all, they're NPCs. You're taking PC classes for granted; Eberron doesn't. Which, again, is a big part of the high cost of warforged: you know you're getting an expert soldier, while you might get one true fighter for every hundred warriors you train. Animate dead at 25 gp a skeliton. There's entire threads about this. Aside from the ethics - many religions being innately opposed to the use of undead - there's a lot of mechanical and tactical issues (having characters who can create them in large numbers in the first place, controlling them, the ability for them to be turned, the problems of mindless troops - as only Karrnath has the sentient skeletons, and those aren't just created with animate dead - and so on). I won't argue the point here, but I don't see it as being a viable alternative to warforged for most nations.
AkumaDaimyo 07-01-07, 07:32 PM	Warforged are cheap but not easy. :D
Hellcow 07-01-07, 08:24 PM	Artificers are even less common than fighters. What Eberron did was to introduce the magewright - an NPC class trained in the use of arcane magic. THESE are the people who produce the bulk of magic of Eberron. Actually, I think the poster may have been saying "With such low-level characters, how does Eberron even have lightning rails and airships?" Eberron also presumes the use of eldritch machines, wondrous locations, and dragonshard focus items to produce goods that no single wizard could do on his own. There's no feat for creating warforged, because you simply can't do it without a creation forge. It's a question of industry; magic is treated as a science in Eberron, and many of its most impressive wonders are only made possible by the use of tools. So it took a single brilliant artificer to create the first creation forge; but lower level artificers were able to use that forge to produce warforged. The same sort of principle applies on smaller scale to most of the major magics of Eberron. The reason Lyrandar and Orien need Zilargo isn't simply because the gnomes have the best elemental binders; they also have the best binding facilities, and replicating these elsewhere would be difficult and expensive (same sort of thing as understanding the basic principles of nuclear physics and actually building a nuclear reactor in your country). Beyond that, Dreaming Duck has pretty much said what I'd say. Eberron is predicated on the idea that the vast majority of the population are 1st-level NPC-classed characters, and that even a 2nd-level warrior is actually something to take seriously (hey, if we're talking average hit points and no Con bonus, he's got more than four times as many HP as the typical commoner, not even looking at his BAB and proficiencies). You can have PC class characters as NPCs, but they are exceptional people. Looking to the cavalry in Forge of War, the point is that they have picked out the best - not surprising, if you are going to give them your expensive gear. But the warrior is the product of military experience and training: the fighter is the exceptional individual with a true talent for the arts of war. Some people would rise in level, hardened by war, developing keen instincts and skill, and these people become Redcloaks or Arcane Knights. But most soldiers hit 2nd-level warrior (if that) and stop there; that's as good as they will ever be. And compared to the first level commoner, it's pretty good.
LoneStranger 07-02-07, 12:29 AM	Since I am playing a Warforged I figure I could weigh in on this at least a little. I'm not sure on prices for warforged regardless if it's a single one or a bulk order for a country since I haven't read Forge of War yet. However when you do buy warforged you get a mind capable of being molded in the arts of combat easier than an organic mind. Plus during this time the intelligent commander would find a way to make the warforged's first emotion pride in the country that bought him. Now for actual combat itself that gets a bit easier. You don't have to worry about food which makes whatever food you do bring with the army last that much longer. For the warforged themselves all you need are spare parts which can be easier to transport compared to everything you need for organic troops. Throw in a warforged artificer or two into a unit and they get that much more self sufficient (low levels mean repair minor damage has more impact). When it comes to loyalty I think warforged would have a better idea than some in this thread have given them credit for that "hey, that's the enemy, and I belong to this nation over here". There may be some that do realize that they're treated worse than other soldiers and may decide to head to another country or even outside of the war to get away from it all. At this point I will point out the errors made earlier in the thread. I will repeat that -10 hit points kills a warforged dead dead dead, no getting around that. Although it is nice that they only go inert and don't "bleed" any further once they get between 0 and -10. Also the AC of 25 is ludicrous for 1st level. The best AC I came up with for 1st level is a 21. This is from Adamantine body (+8), the dex mod you're allowed with that armor (+1), and a heavy steel shield (+2). The character just made 6th level and he'll have AC 22 now because of shield specialization. I'd like to know where the remaining points are coming from . Kinda long but I've said my piece at least.
Neutronium_Dragon 07-02-07, 01:21 AM	If he's a fighter, he could be using a tower shield for AC 24. If he spends his fighter bonus feat on Combat Expertise, he could raise that to 25 at a cost of -1 to attacks. Granted, at this point he has -3 to attacks, but even if he has a Str of 15 (which most 1st level fighters will under the elite array) that adds to the +1 BAB to give him a total of +0 to attacks. Not great, but if he's mainly fighting Warriors wearing leather, they'll be AC 13 or 15 with a shield (17 if they have a tower shield), which aren't bad hit odds when you consider that the warrior needs a natural 20 to hit him (and needs another 20 to crit).
Zardnaar 07-02-07, 01:47 AM	Actually, I think the poster may have been saying "With such low-level characters, how does Eberron even have lightning rails and airships?" Eberron also presumes the use of eldritch machines, wondrous locations, and dragonshard focus items to produce goods that no single wizard could do on his own. There's no feat for creating warforged, because you simply can't do it without a creation forge. It's a question of industry; magic is treated as a science in Eberron, and many of its most impressive wonders are only made possible by the use of tools. So it took a single brilliant artificer to create the first creation forge; but lower level artificers were able to use that forge to produce warforged. The same sort of principle applies on smaller scale to most of the major magics of Eberron. The reason Lyrandar and Orien need Zilargo isn't simply because the gnomes have the best elemental binders; they also have the best binding facilities, and replicating these elsewhere would be difficult and expensive (same sort of thing as understanding the basic principles of nuclear physics and actually building a nuclear reactor in your country). Beyond that, Dreaming Duck has pretty much said what I'd say. Eberron is predicated on the idea that the vast majority of the population are 1st-level NPC-classed characters, and that even a 2nd-level warrior is actually something to take seriously (hey, if we're talking average hit points and no Con bonus, he's got more than four times as many HP as the typical commoner, not even looking at his BAB and proficiencies). You can have PC class characters as NPCs, but they are exceptional people. Looking to the cavalry in Forge of War, the point is that they have picked out the best - not surprising, if you are going to give them your expensive gear. But the warrior is the product of military experience and training: the fighter is the exceptional individual with a true talent for the arts of war. Some people would rise in level, hardened by war, developing keen instincts and skill, and these people become Redcloaks or Arcane Knights. But most soldiers hit 2nd-level warrior (if that) and stop there; that's as good as they will ever be. And compared to the first level commoner, it's pretty good. That and higher level NPCs seem reasonably commen in Eberron adventures. A scroll of fireball is alot cheaper than a single warforged and can be bought at any reasonably large city-by the rules even in Eberron. 1 Warforged of several scrolls of fireball hmmmnnn. You could also equip quite a few level 1 warriors with Ballistas as well and I'm sure by using aid another rules they could hit a Warforged relativly easily. I'm also sure you could hire a higher level assassin (lvl 5-6) who could easily assainate tens of thousands gp worth of Warforged for alot cheaper than their production cost. Some of the Eberron books even have costs for assassination. 600gp IIRC to assasinate a lvl 2 character or 1/10th the cost of a Warforged. Page 15 Sharn city of Towers. Spend 60000 buying warforged and a rival can spend 6000gp and have a good chunk of them assassinated. It makes no economic sense to buy Warforged at that price. It may be the rules but in this case they are retarded. Plenty of stupid senseless rules in various D&D books though.Don't get me wrong Warforged should be expensive but 5-10K is to much.
The Dreaming Duck 07-02-07, 03:18 AM	That and higher level NPCs seem reasonably commen in Eberron adventures. Most likely because you're dealing with adventures designed for higher level PCs, so you have to. The point isn't that there are NO high level NPCs in Eberron; it's that they are exceptional, not commonplace. The Redcloak Battaleon are held up as some of the best Breland has to offer, and they're 7th-level NPC-classed characters. The fact remains that by Forge of War - the book whose warforged price you're disputing - the average soldier in the army is a 1st-level commoner or warrior, and that even the cavalry soldier is at best a 1st-level fighter. If you're going to debate one assertion in the book, you need to consider the others. A scroll of fireball is alot cheaper than a single warforged and can be bought at any reasonably large city-by the rules even in Eberron. 1 Warforged of several scrolls of fireball hmmmnnn. How is this a remotely valid comparison? Can a few scrolls of fireball guard your soldiers while they need to sleep? Can they patrol a perimeter? Will they still be around in fifty years? This is like comparing a rocket-propelled grenade to a jeep. he price difference is utterly meaningless, because they can't be used for the same function. If you need to kill a large number of commoners once, get the scroll - provided you have the wizard to USE the scroll, and can keep him alive. If you need a soldier who may be in service for thirty years, who can accomplish tasks requiring intelligence and hands, who can work or guard through the night, and who can incidentally kill hundreds of commoners over the course of that time... get the warforged. Of, what's that? You don't have a wizard to use the scroll? Well, you could always BUY one - if you're willing to buy a warforged wizard. You could also equip quite a few level 1 warriors with Ballistas as well and I'm sure by using aid another rules they could hit a Warforged relativly easily. Aid Another can only be used in melee combat. And we're back to versatility. "Joe, I need someone to guard the camp tonight." "Well, we've got a pack of guys with a ballista." "Do they need to sleep?" "Yeah, and they need be rested tomorrow to haul that ballista around when we start marching." "Damn it." I'm also sure you could hire a higher level assassin (lvl 5-6) who could easily assainate tens of thousands gp worth of Warforged for alot cheaper than their production cost. Some of the Eberron books even have costs for assassination. 600gp IIRC to assasinate a lvl 2 character or 1/10th the cost of a Warforged. Page 15 Sharn city of Towers. Spend 60000 buying warforged and a rival can spend 6000gp and have a good chunk of them assassinated. OK, at this point I honestly think you're just trolling. But on the off chance you're serious... WHAT?!? You're suggesting that the king, during wartime, is going to hire members of an assassin's guild to assassinate rank-and-file soldiers? And that the assassin is going to take this crazy contract, let alone for the same rate as working at home? Even if you find an assassin who's willing to work under battlefield conditions, why exactly are you sending him against the WARFORGED? Why isn't he killing officers, the wizards who use those scrolls of fireball you bought, or any one of a thousand people who play a far more important role in the operation of your army than a single typical warforged soldier? The fact that he cost your opponent 5,000 gp to buy hardly makes him the most worthy target of your assassin. Besides which, as you yourself noted, there's no assurance that he'll take out all those warforged; he can always screw up the job. And at the end of the day, after you've spent 6,000 gp, it's over. It's done. You have nothing; if you're lucky, your enemy has lost his warforged, but the assassin's not on your side anymore either. Meanwhile, if they AREN'T assassinated, your enemy has ten warforged soldiers that could last him a hundred years; with scrolls or assassins, your money is gone the moment you spent it. You're investing in fire-and-forget weapons; I'm investing in hardware that could last for decades. Two entirely different purposes. Again, I just can't believe the whole "I'll use the price charts of hiring an assassin in the city to account for assassinating soldiers on the battlefield" thing. A city job is perfectly suited to an assassin. Crowds to mingle with. Close to your own base of operations. You're own your own time table - shadow your opponent until you can catch him alone. Poison his food. Kill him in his sleep. Assassinating warforged soldiers in the field? Whole different story. You're not on your home ground, and it's probably taken you a while to reach your enemy's base (IE, additional charge for expenses and time). You're in someone else's army base, probably crawling with soldiers. If you can catch a single warforged alone and sneak attack him, you're probably good... though an adamantine warforged has an excellent AC even when flat-footed (assume no shield bonus for the warforged, AC 18; give the assassin a +3 BAB, +1 weapon, +3 ranged attack modifier for 16 Dex and +1 for precise shot and you’re still only at a 50% chance to hit), and light fortification gives him a 25% chance of negating your sneak attack damage. Even if you hit and get the sneak attack, on average damage, you won't take him down in one attack (assuming a 1d8+1 damage missile weapon and +3d6 sneak attack, an average of 14 damage through the DR; the typical adamantine warforged fighter, as shown, will have around 21 hit points). And since he’s immune to poison and doesn’t sleep, you can’t just poison the water supply (or your blade) or coup de grace him while he’s sleeping. Still, if you only encounter one, you’re probably fine – you should be able to work through the remaining 7 hit points (again, assuming you don’t miss or that fortification doesn’t absorb the sneak attack). But if there’s TWO, that’s going to get ugly – let alone three or more. Me, I’d stick with the wizard. That sneak attack should drop a 5th-level wizard, and that takes away fireball capacity. For my one-shot investment, I’d take out the big gun. All this sets aside the question of whether the Five Nations had any agreements concerning the use of assassins on the battlefields. Given that we DON’T hear about generals and kings getting knocked off right and left, I’d suspect they did. Don't get me wrong Warforged should be expensive but 5-10K is to much. I agreed at first, but I think 5K makes perfect sense. You can’t compare them to +1 bows and scrolls of fireball because the bow can’t fire itself and the fireball is fire and forget. Jeeps and grenades: two completely different purposes. It’s less than half the cost of buying the armor. Yes, you wouldn’t outfit every soldier with adamantine armor… but you also wouldn’t replace all of your soldiers with warforged. They’re a specialized tool, purchased in the minimum number required to accomplish the objective. Just like jeeps, helecopters, tanks, or any other form of military hardware. They don’t REPLACE the commoners; they fill a role the commoner – or the scroll of fireball – can’t. At this point I will point out the errors made earlier in the thread. I will repeat that -10 hit points kills a warforged dead dead dead, no getting around that. Although it is nice that they only go inert and don't "bleed" any further once they get between 0 and -10. Has anyone been saying otherwise? Hellcow and Maollelujah were debating the question of whether inert warforged would be executed or not; that seems to imply a pretty clear understanding that they CAN be killed. The question is whether people would kill inert warforged, not if it’s possible to do so. As it stands, it’s hard enough to bring an adamantine warforged down in the first place, let alone kill him in one blow. Assuming he’s on his feet, it would take at least 13 points of damage. A warrior with a 12 Strength and a greatsword could do it, and someone else could with a critical hit, but it’s much more likely they’ll get dropped into an inert state than killed outright.
The White Sorcerer 07-02-07, 04:00 AM	It prices a shield guardian at 10,000 GP, and says that a batch of a dozen warforged can be created for the same price, which would put their individual cost in the area of 800 GP. It then suggests 5,000 GP for an individual warforged. What? I thought the book priced a single warforged at 10,000, and a dozen at 5,000/warforged.:confused:
Zardnaar 07-02-07, 04:22 AM	I wasn't being to serious about the assasins. Go play a strategy game or read up on WW2. Resources mater. If you can destroy warforged at a cost ratio of 5-10 in your favour odds are you will win as no one cane reallly afford to suck that up. Its kinda like an RTS game where a cheap rocket man takes out an expensive tank. You win the resource war you win the game. My point was you can get better value for money by spending it elsewhere. Some of the examples are stupid. A warforged likely won't last 30 years on the battlefield. Most of them will be destroyed long before 30 years if they're seeing active duty. Constructs are vatly over priced for the amount of oomph you get out of them. look through the monster manual 1 for various monsters you can buy,. More than a few outclass a warforged in combat ability. Why can you have magical lightnig rail and skyships but not be able to train professional soldiers to fighter levl 1 standard in a 100 year war? Why can't you buy a war elphant or griffon or dire animal or hippogriff etc which are all cheaper than warforged and can be relativly easily trained by someone with the right skills? In a quasi fantasy world. Why did some bright spark not sell Griffons at 7000gp each and train griffon riders? 1 griffon would tear a warforged apart and costs about the same. Where is all this money coming from? Each warforged costs the same amount of money as a level 6-8 NPC's equipment (page 127 DMG) A small company or 2 of warforged costs the same amount as a major castle according to the stronghold builders guidebook. It makes no sense in Eberrons economy which is the economy as presented in the DMG. Its not cost effective as theres cheaper alternatives. Knights are expensive once the horse and full plate armor are taken into account but they are a fraction of the cost of a warforged. Warforged makle great soldiers I'm not disputing that but they're not invincable and you can kill them easily enough at a fraction of their cost.
Shady314 07-02-07, 04:44 AM	From the decline of the Roman empire until reasonably modern times armies didn't really have reliable logistics. Sieges were often broken when the besiegers ran out of food. Itsimportant yest but due to various reasons armies typically had poor logistics up until several hundred years ago. Yes I realize that. I was in fact agreeing with you. I was just being facetious by saying it was indeed important but not given the proper respect until later on. I apologize because I should have used a smiley face. To be clear: you had said it was UNimportant (in the sense it was not given much weight) I jocularly replied it was important (in the sense it had a huge effect on armies). :) Clear now? In the fantasy worlds of most literature the importance of logisitics has been recognized and I think this is true in Eberron as well.
The Dreaming Duck 07-02-07, 01:07 PM	Some of the examples are stupid. A warforged likely won't last 30 years on the battlefield. Most of them will be destroyed long before 30 years if they're seeing active duty. Constructs are vatly over priced for the amount of oomph you get out of them. Which is exactly my point. You're not looking at what you WOULD do with them. You're looking at what you would do with a second level human fighter or a scroll of fireballs and comparing the cost value to using warforged for the same job. So don't use warforged for the same job. Use them for the jobs no human can perform, or would want to perform. Use them for the task that a single fire and forget scroll won't achieve - as I said, that scroll can't guard your supply dump. Guard duty is a perfect example. You have a small weapons cache. Outfit it with humans and you DO have to make sure they have food and enough people to keep an active guard up 24 hours (meaning more humans, meaning more food). And as you said, if it comes to a siege, one of the best ways to lose is to be starved out. But you can't starve out warforged. They don't eat. They don't sleep. They can't catch disease (heck, I can take advantage of that and poison the water supply in the area - if your army tries a seige you'll need to drink, and then YOU'LL catch disease). High armor and Cleave makes them great wall guards - it's going to be hard for your men to climb in heavy armor, so they'll have the edge. And as guards, they COULD last 30 years, easily. They could potentially last a hundred years, for all we know; they don't age. Alternately, warforged are good as seigers for the same reason - they can outwait any human troops. They don't need to eat. They don't need to sleep. You do. And unlike a golem, they ARE intelligent, and can respond in a tactically intelligent manner. You're comparing a grenade to a jeep. Sure, if you blow up all your opponent's jeeps with your grenades, you've won the economic battle. But if you only have grenades and never buy any jeeps yourself, YOU aren't covering the task the jeeps are needed for. Looking back to the example of assassins - and I apologize if I was a little harsh there - sure, an assassin's hit job may be less expensive than a single warforged. But as I said, that assassin won't guard your human troops at night. He can't watch the supply dump for thirty years. If your goal is "kill one important person", the assassin is a better investment. But that's not why you buy a warforged. Guard duty. Situations where sleepless troops or no need for food are important. The vanguard of a human force, as I described before - heavily armored spearbreakers who are willing to charge the foe, and who if dropped can likely be resucitated after the battle. There are many jobs for which humans are better than warforged - or scrolls, or assassins. But there are roles where warforged are ideal, and that's why you buy them. If they were TOO cheap, there wouldn't have BEEN any human soldiers - while if you'll notice, by Forge of War, most soldiers were human. I will say again, however, that I would expect the assassin to charge far more for a wartime mission, and furthermore that a warforged is a terrible target. A human fighter has to take his armor off sometime (unless he wants to worry about fungal diseases). He has to eat, risking poison. He has to sleep, risking coup de grace. None of these are true for the warforged. Always armored, always on duty, immune to poison, even partially immune to sneak attacks. Fear of assassins is actually another good reason to invest IN warforged - because they're considerably less vulnerable than your human troops. Why can you have magical lightnig rail and skyships but not be able to train professional soldiers to fighter levl 1 standard in a 100 year war? Can you explain to me what an airship and fighter training have to do with each other? Seriously. How are these two things REMOTELY connected? I've gone over this quite clearly and been backed up by the creator of the setting. YOU are assuming that a warrior sucks. The fact of the matter is that he doesn't: he is the model of a typical soldier. The fighter is exceptional. Why can't you train any pianist to be Mozart? Because not everyone has that talent. You've been talking about Sharn. So LOOK at Sharn. The typical city guardsman is a 1st-level warrior. "ELITE" forces - both in the City Watch and the Royal Guard - are 2nd-level warriors. Their OFFICERS are fighters - the exceptional individuals who rise to the top. But that's not because they only bothered to train a few people up to fighter standard. It's because those people are the exceptional one who DID rise above the rank and file. And that's the issue. You can train all the warriors you have time for. But you can't just get fighters on demand. It's always going to be a crapshoot if there's any fighter-quality individuals in a group - unless you're dealing with warforged. Again, you can challenge it all you want, but it's clear in the setting, both in Sharn, the ECS, and The Forge of War, and it supports the DMG's general demographics. The fact that there's been a hundred years of war doesn't somehow make the people of the world into supermen. People are still people, and most people don't have the inner potential to grasp a PC class. Even reaching second level is enough to qualify you as elite. And again, this is a fundamental fact taken into account in the price of warforged. If you're not willing to accept it, you're failing to see one of the things that makes warforged valuable. Why can't you buy a war elphant or griffon or dire animal or hippogriff etc which are all cheaper than warforged and can be relativly easily trained by someone with the right skills? In a quasi fantasy world. Why did some bright spark not sell Griffons at 7000gp each and train griffon riders? 1 griffon would tear a warforged apart and costs about the same. First, if you're charging 7,000 gp for your griffon, then they don't cost the same (Remember? If you're buying an army, which you would be, warforged are only 5 K),plus you need your rider and his equipment. Second, you're once again completely missing the point. They DID buy griffons and wyverns and all those monsters you're talking about. That's the business of House Vadalis. If you've read Sharn, you should know about the Race of Eight Winds, which was derived from aerial combat drills. According to the ECS, Thrane had a devastating wyvern air force. But can a wyvern guard a supply depot? Now you're saying "Why buy a jeep when I could by a fighter jet?" Because they serve different roles. The army WILL have eternal wands of fireball. It WILL have wyvern or griffon cavalry. It will have all the human fighters it can get its hands on. And it will have warforged. And each of these things will be used in the most tactically appropriate manner. You're trying to squeeze everything into the same slot. You're looking at this like an RTS where all you have to consider is "I've got a budget of 10,000 gp and my only goal is to kill 100 commoners." But especially in a 100-year war, the commanders are looking at a far larger picutre, with MANY different tactical operations and concerns. Warforged will be a terrible investment for some of these - and an excellent investment for others. When you want to kill a small group of people clustered together, you use a grenade, not try to run them over with a jeep. But while the jeep is more expensive than the grenade, it serves many OTHER purposes, and that's why you bought it. Where is all this money coming from? Each warforged costs the same amount of money as a level 6-8 NPC's equipment (page 127 DMG) Just checking, because I don't have the DMG on me. Are you counting them at 5,000 gp or 10,000 gp? Because if we're talking about a national army, the 5K figure is the only one that matters. Beyond that, it comes from the national treasury... which is in turn supplimented by loans from House Kundarak and House Cannith. Could YOU buy a cruise missile? A tank? Fifty jeeps? The US army can. It has a budget of billions of dollars, and much of the hardware costs far more than the cost of a single soldier. The money comes from the nation, which spends it to acquire the tools it feels are best suited to the job. Sometimes that's a wand. Sometimes it's a griffon. And sometimes, it's a warforged. Knights are expensive once the horse and full plate armor are taken into account but they are a fraction of the cost of a warforged. And according to Forge of War, most are a fraction (half, to be specific) of the skill of the warforged, though there are exceptions. Plus you have that whole food/sleep issue. PLUS, many knights are your nobles. Do you really WANT to send them into the worst of war if you can send some automaton instead? That is another thing to consider; the cost of saving a human life. Warforged make a great vanguard because a) they can be recovered from being inert, and b) if they are destroyed, from a morale standpoint, someone's blown up your catapult. It's not the same as losing the son of Count Harvey. Warforged makle great soldiers I'm not disputing that but they're not invincable and you can kill them easily enough at a fraction of their cost. Of course they're not invincible. But they're tough - and they can do things no human can do. Again, it would be idiotic to try to replace every human soldier with a warforged soldier. And that's why no one did it. Look to the Forge of War. Armies are primarily organic. The warforged are specialized tools called into service for jobs that they are best suited to. With that said, let's get to the most important question. You don't like the price. So, how much would you charge for one? Right now, at 5,000K they are less than half the price of a suit of adamantine plate. They are slightly more than three times the price of a suit of perfectly normal full plate. In addition to the armor itself, you get a skilled soldier with, among other things, no family attachments, no political issues, no need of food or sleep, no concern about disease, and while we're at it, around four times the hit points of your average warrior (unless the warior spends a feat on Toughness, in which case around 2.6 times) and seven times the hit points of your average commoner (not to mention better weapon training and higher BAB). How much WOULD you charge? If the price is too low, how do you explain there BEING human soldiers at all by the end of the war? The price needs to be high enough that there is a reason NOT to use warforged in every situation - because while they aren't perfect or invulnerable, they are demonstrably superior to the typical soldier - or even the base-level elite (2nd-level warrior as defined by Sharn, at least in the Brelish Royal Guard) soldier. So with that in mind, if 5K is too high, what's fair? If you drop it to the price of a NORMAL suit of full plate, why would you ever buy full plate when you can buy an exceptional, tireless warrior with DR to boot IN that armor?
Zardnaar 07-02-07, 04:57 PM	I'll have a think about the price of it but a cheap warforged shpould be about twice the cost of an equivilent human slave. 200 gp or there abouts for a lvl 1 NPC classed warforged. The price of warforged does make sense for a high level party to buy one or perhaps elite bodyguards to the king.but not a national scale to raise an army. A level 2 I'm not pulling figures out of my butt. at 5000gp thats roughly the equipmenmt of a NPC fighters, 9600 is the equipment for a level 8 NPC. 100-200 warforged are the same price as a reasonably major castle in a D&D economy. You're also appliing modern humanist values in what is a fantasy world. Up until recently life was cheap on earth and slavery was legal so at that price I don't think the human life value should be much of an argument. The USA can afford cruise missiles and fet fighters etc but is in a post industrial society and has a population of 300 million. Most nations in Eberron have a population of 2 million or less. A suit of full plate adamantine is quite expensive but it seems you can't loot a dead warforged for 10000gp woth of admantine so perhaps it is quasi magical adamantine that detiorates once the warforged is dead. Another words the creation forge makes it alot cheaper than a normal adamantine full plate. I don't see what is special about a low level human fighter. Historically lotsa ancient nations would have had fighters in their armies not warriors- roman legionaires and spartens come to mind. They were either higher level than their contemporary opponents or their opponents used NPC classed warriors (persians, gauls whatever) To me a warrior is either a part time soldier, member of a tribal society or a militia member. A good arguement should be made that any professional full time soldier would be a fighter not a warrior. I'm not saying the 5 nations should be able to crank out level 2+ fighters on a regular basis but level 1 fighters would be reasonable IMHO. Forge or War (I don't have it) might say otherwise and I'm not disputing that but it could be a stupid part of that book- kinda like the Warforged are inherently untrustworthy in Races of Eberron. Stupid fluff that makes little sense. Game designers are human as well. How much would I charge for a Warforged? An elite level 2 one with the Adamantine body feat (which is free BTW)maybe 2000gp. That would make them comparable to Knights and allow them to be deployed in similar numbers and be treated as elite heavy infantry. What do you think a traditional western europe style Knight would be in terms of levels? I'm thinking Fighter 4 in D&D rules (a lower level fighter can't afford the equipment some knights may be poorer though and wear chainmail). IIRC correctly the French deployed the most Knights IRL and had 5000 (Crecy, Agincourt) or so supplemented by levies and crossbow men. If any nation has even half that number in Eberron they will mow down heavy infantry including Warforged at alot less cost than the Warforged. I suppose I'm being unreasonable to assume a nation could get some heavy cavalry or level 1 fighters fomr somewhere though. Nations on Earth managed it with a lower tech level than Eberron and Europe also had a 100 year war.
The Dreaming Duck 07-02-07, 05:38 PM	I'm not pulling figures out of my butt. I'm aware of that. I said I didn't have the table handy, so I didn't know if you were talking about 5,000 or 10,000. Up until recently life was cheap on earth and slavery was legal so at that price I don't think the human life value should be much of an argument. You're telling me that medieval knights WEREN'T ransomed during wartime? Because that certainly contradicts what I know of history. Beyond that, I'm not saying that you'd worry about paying for a warforged to replace the commoner. In fact, that's what I've been saying again and again and again and again: the warforged doesn't replace the commoner or the warrior. You're not buying them on a one-to-one basis to do the same job you'd use a human or commoner for. They are specialized equipment for specialized situations. 100-200 warforged are the same price as a reasonably major castle in a D&D economy. Hmm. If so, that castle may be less than half the price of Kaius' personal equipment, which comes out to 110,000 gp. Again, we're not dealing with the minor feudal lord; he'd contribute commoners and warriors to the cause, and maybe a knight. We're talking about the nation, which has both greater capital (and the ability to raise taxes to get more), and likely major loans. The USA can afford cruise missiles and fet fighters etc but is in a post industrial society... Eberron isn't your traditional medieval society. The creation forges essentially ARE industrial in nature. In his earlier post, Hellcow was explaining that the houses DO essentially have magic factories - and THAT'S how you get lightning rails and airships in a society with so few high level wizards. Because you have industry, not simple hand-crafted magic. Besides which, while I was using it as an example, I wouldn't consider 5,000 for a warforged to be the same price as a cruise missile - if it is, Kaius is carrying around the equivalent value of 22 cruise missiles. perhaps it is quasi magical adamantine that detiorates once the warforged is dead. If you read the warforged dragonshard, that's exactly what it is. I don't see what is special about a low level human fighter. You're right: you don't. Eberron does. The point of Eberron is that it draws a distinction between heroes and minor characters. One of the things that defines a hero is superior skill. By limiting NPCs to NPC classes, Eberron makes those characters who have PC classes shine even at low level. As a 4th-level fighter, you ARE a bad-ass in Eberron - because most soldiers are 1st or 2nd level warriors. Even the Redcloaks are higher level, but still warriors - meaning that at 4th level, you can still look pretty good alongside them. You've described your vision. But it's quite clearly NOT the one Eberron subscribes to. Forge of War. Sharn. A warrior isn't a part time, slightly trained militiaman. A 2nd-level warrior is an elite member of Breland's Royal Guard. It may not be what you'd do, but it's a basic fact of the setting, plain and simply. Meanwhile, Eberron DOES have forces trained as fighters. Among others, the warforged. The elite forces of the Dhakaani hobgoblins - supposedly some of the best soldiers in the history of Khorvaire - are described as being fighters instead of warriors. The Valenar elves are largely rangers. There are your Spartans - goblins and elves. But the point is that like the Spartans, their culture is entirely dedicated to this. The Five Nations may have been through a hundred years of war, but they haven't become Sparta, any more than France and England did in their long war. Each nation has still held on to its cultural values. The soldiers fight because they have to, not because it's their reason for living. For the Valenar, on the other hand, it IS their reason for living. They spend the first hundred years of their lives doing nothing but preparing for war, and they devote every waking moment to following in the footsteps of their martial ancestors. Frankly, I think Aundair would be a fairly decent place to live - while the Valenar are essentially fascists indoctrinated into a culture of war from birth. The only joy they find in life is in battle. Yes, THAT results in more PC classed characters. But that's not life in the Five Nations. In the Five Nations, people do still care about their families. They do have aspirations aside from war. Even the Karrns are a militant culture and undoubtedly produce more fighters than other nations; but they aren't the Dhakaani or the Valenar. And level is the other key. You say "They were either higher level than their contemporary opponents or their opponents used NPC classed warriors". Right. Higher level. By Eberron, the typical soldier is a 1st-level warrior; the elite soldier is a 2nd-level warrior. Better chance to hit, twice the hit points... if you're matched in numbers, your 2nd-level warriors will slaughter the 1st-levels. They don't need to be fighters at that point. Again, if 98% of the world is made up of 1st-level commoners with some 1st-level warriors mixed in - which after all, is what the DMG advises - even the 2nd-level warrior is a force to be reckoned with. Furthermore, you're missing another point. Sure, with the Spartans, their propaganda at least is based around the skill of the individual warrior. With the Romans? Yes, their troops were well-trained. But a tremendous aspect of their victory over the Celts and the Gauls was based on tactics, not on the tremendous high levels of their individual legionaires. The Celts were undisciplined; the Romans used an unprecedented level of troop tactics, along with superior equipment. They could be perfectly matched in skill level (if you read The Tain, Cu Chulain is a scary #$@%), and the Romans will win because of their superior tactics and better equipment. I can certainly see an elite legionnaire as a 2nd-level warrior; but I don't see a need for him to be a fighter, when Eberron has stated that a fighter is someone exceptional who stands out from the crowd. The point is that in Eberron, fighters exist so that when you WANT a low-level legionaire to be exceptional, you make him a fighter. If you want the simple militiaman, make him a 1st-level warrior. Again, compared to that 2nd-level "elite", he's substantially worse off, even without the fighter class levels added in. I'm not saying the 5 nations should be able to crank out level 2+ fighters on a regular basis but level 1 fighters would be reasonable IMHO. Forge or War (I don't have it) might say otherwise and I'm not disputing that but it could be a stupid part of that book- But Sharn says it as well. And the ECS. And, for that matter, the default demographics of the DMG. Again, you're presuming that most nations on Earth produced fighters. As I've just spelled out, Eberron assumes that what you see as the difference between a warrior and a fighter is in fact the difference between a 1st-level warrior and a 2nd-level warrior. Also, consider feats. A 1st-level human warrior gets two feats. If he's a minimally trained peasant levy, then his feats will likely be tied to his NON-military life - he'll have Skill Focus (profession: Farmer) or the like. If he's a dedicated soldier, those two feats will be directly tied to warfare. There's a lot of different ways to get variety between 1st and 2nd-level warriors without adding fighters into the equation. In Eberron, the point is that the PCs stand out. Making the vast majority of NPCs use NPC classes (as indicated by the DMG) is one of the things that makes this possible - so even as a 3rd level fighter, you are exceptional.
Hellcow 07-02-07, 06:16 PM	What do you think a traditional western europe style Knight would be in terms of levels? I'm thinking Fighter 4 in D&D rules (a lower level fighter can't afford the equipment some knights may be poorer though and wear chainmail). There's one important fact here: the table of NPC gear presented in the DMG is a guideline, not a hard rule. Lots of NPCs in Eberron (and other settings) are above or below their equipment values. As Dreaming Duck has pointed out a few times, Kaius in Five Nations is far above his equipment value. And because of this, his CR is increased. The equipment value isn't a magic "Any NPC of this level WILL have this gear"; it's saying "In order to be considered as a threat of the CR his level would normally indicate, an NPC of this level should have this level of equipment." If you've got a 1st-level knight and you want to give him full plate, of course you can do it; he comes from a noble family, it's an heirloom, whatever. But that's better gear that the DMG expects him to have at that level, and the DM will need to decide if it's necessary to raise or lower the CR. So you should never judge the level of the character based solely on his equipment. Great, the French had lots of armored knights at Agincourt and the English had lots of peasant longbowmen with nothing but bows and daggers. That doesn't mean that the knights had to be high level ("It's the only way they could afford horse and armor") or that the peasants had to be first level ("If they were higher level, they'd have armor or magic bows"). A knight could still be a 1st-level aristocrat serving because of his family's obligation to the crown, while the peasant bowman could be a 2nd-level warrior or, if he's truly exceptional, a 2nd-level ranger, whose skills have been honed by years of poaching deer in the King's woods. It's just that if this is the case, the French are overequipped and will have a higher CR, while the underequipped English would have a lower CR. Dreaming Duck has already said everything I'd say here. In Eberron the distinction between militia and elite is one of level, not class. PC classes are reserved for exceptional people. It may be that your knights ARE exceptional people. Certainly, if you're running an Arthurian campaign, Arthur and his knights should be fighters and knights. But that's because they are the heroes, the characters who stand out from the crowd. A fourth level knight is a powerful character in Eberron; not ridiculously powerful (I think cavalry commanders in Forge of War are listed at 2nd-3rd level), but still, a man who knows his business and who could pose a threat to a considerable number of first level commoners and warriors. Might there have been a few such soldiers at Agincourt? Probably. But were all 5,000 knights this level? Not in my opinion. Many would be lower level. Many would be aristocrats (which after all gives you proficiency with martial weapons and armor and access to the Ride skill). It's all about the baseline. If you accept that the vast majority of people are 1st level commoners - which as has been pointed out, is what the Dungeon Master's Guide suggests - then you can see that the second level warrior is competent, a fourth level fighter is fearsome, and that the twelth level character is the stuff of song and story. (And on that note, I'd definitely see tenth level characters as being significant enough to be involved in a Boranel assassination plot!!!)
Zardnaar 07-02-07, 06:31 PM	I can see the point of your arguement but it still doesn't make any sense. Higher level individuals may be rare in Eberron but they do exist. That level 6 Sorceror who knows Fireball as a spell can kill a huge aount of level 1 and 2 mooks. And Sharn still uses the DMG for demographs and being a major city will have a higher than normal amount of higher level types in it. Supplement your normal forces with a Sorceror or Warmage. They'll probably be cheaper to hire than to buy 1-2 Warforged. They might be rare but they do exist and logically some of them would be willing to sell their services. Its a stupid assumption. By the rules the City Watch of sharn are low level warriors. A typical problem most D&D worlds have is power inflation. If the PCs are so special and higher level than the rest of the world how will the rest of the world react with them or control them? A mid level party can hack through the city guard and the kings elite guard and probably kill the monarch as well without to much hassle. Eberron seems to be a high magic world with a low power level and economics that make no sense even withen rather awfull D&D gold standard. You also level up quite fast so PCs will be nid level (5-10) reasonably quickly and they're amoung the most powerful people on Eberron. Since you seem to be a big fan commoners the average commoner in D&D earns 1sp per day (DMG). Thats 50000 days labour to pay for the cheapest warforged. Or 150 years non stop labour 24/7 give or take or 300 years of 12 hour work days. How are the nations affording warforged again? In real world terms a $20K per year which is a low wage. Each warforged is about the equivilent of $3 million dollars probably more as the conversion isnt to exact. Where is the money coming from with all these low level mooks earning so little a day? A monarch gets his money via taxes and the majority of his subject (common labourers) earn 1sp/day. Either the Eberron commoners get payed more or the middle class earns alot more than the average commoner and is quite large. 1/sp a day 50% tax rate in war (poor subjects BTW) is about 1 million sp a day income if your nation has 2 million citizens (Aundair). 100000gp/dayX 365= 36 500 000/year. In WW2 the USA spent about 40% of its GDP on the war effort. At a very high tax rate (50% flat tax) which would probably bankrupt the country in a few years let alone 100 and spending 40% (unsustanable ) of its GDP on the war (13 500 000 roughly per year) I wonder how much of that budget is spendable on warforged? You have normal armies to maintain and supply, fortress to build/repair, weapons and armor to buy as well. And thats in extreme circumstances. In an average year the military budget would probably be half to one third of that cost as 50% tax rate is unsustanable when 40% of your countries income is being spent on the war. Not all of those 2 million citizens would be taxpayers either (children/old people) so that could even cut the budget in half again which would bring it down to 6.5 million gp give or take per year. Realistically its even lower so if Aundair spent their entire military budget on warforged at 5000gp each they could buy around 1200 warforged per year. Since they can't spend their entire budget on warforged and the budget with my numbers is probably to generous and is likely half that figure if that brings it down to 600 warforged per year using their entire budget. If they spend 25% of their budget on warforged thats 150-300 per year and the 300 number is the 50% tax rate, 40% GDP figure which would leave very little left over to pay loans (ie default on them who will lend them money if a country defaults). At that price Warforged can only be bought for elite bodyguards. They're to expensive for elite formations in a battlefield. See 2 can play at the majority of Eberrons inhabitants are level 1 NPC classes. Forge of War can say whatever it likes I don't own it but it still doesn't make any sense.
Zardnaar 07-02-07, 06:37 PM	The Knight did have 7 years or training or so to qualify to be a Knight so I suspect they would be fighters rather than warriors. Maybe multiclass Fighter/Nobles. Level 10-11 PCs don't really have to plot to kill the knig. They can basically barge in through the front door if not disintegrate it massacre his personal guard and butcher everyone with no one to stop them no subtlety required.
Hellcow 07-02-07, 07:24 PM	Higher level individuals may be rare in Eberron but they do exist. That level 6 Sorceror who knows Fireball as a spell can kill a huge aount of level 1 and 2 mooks. You're absolutely right. He does exist. He's an extremely valuable part of the army. And he's why Aundair did as well in the war as it did. And, if the opponent is going to assassinate someone, he'll be the target - because he's the one who you can't just replace for 5,000 gp; he's got a level of skill you just can't buy. And Sharn still uses the DMG for demographs... Actually, it doesn't. As one of the authors of Sharn, what we used was the demographics table in this Dragonshard (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20040712a), which produces lower-level characters than that in the DMG. There's a single 11th-level wizard in Sharn, and a single 10th-level sorcerer - again, quite different than the DMG metropolis, where the bonus alone would push you to 12th. By the table we used, in Sharn - a city that draws adventuring types and has more than its share of high-level characters - there are a total of 26 sorcerers of level 6 or above. And some of those are criminals, diplomats from other nations, dragonmarked heirs with no interest in national wars, or the like; they aren't just waiting for the chance to go out onto the battlefield and die for your king. Supplement your normal forces with a Sorceror or Warmage. Or a magewright with an eternal wand, the most common solution. But Dreaming Duck is absolutely right. Can you hire a sorcerer? Absolutely. And they did. War magic played a huge role in the war. But it's not an either/or situation. The example of warforged as guardians or supporters of a siege is an excellent one. If you're trying to hold a region of fetid swamp where disease runs rampant and there's little food supply? The warforged are the ideal tools for the job; that sorcerer can still get sick or starve. Use the right tool for the job. The warforged aren't right for every task, and neither is the sorcerer. Its a stupid assumption. By the rules the City Watch of sharn are low level warriors. A typical problem most D&D worlds have is power inflation. If the PCs are so special and higher level than the rest of the world how will the rest of the world react with them or control them? A mid level party can hack through the city guard and the kings elite guard and probably kill the monarch as well without to much hassle. Actually, I've written a book (Crime and Punishment by Atlas Games) that deals with exactly this problem. Essentially, it's all about what you want in your game. Do you say "It's stupid to let Legolas, Gimli, and Aragorn be more powerful than the average Rohirrim - let's make EVERYBODY level ten!" Or do you accept that the players SHOULD be much tougher than the city guard, and that by the time they are tenth level the things that pose a challenge to them should be rakshasa, agents of the Chamber, elite forces of the Lord of Blades, and the like? Beyond that, even being lower level and NPC classed, with the right tactics and equipment, the Redcloaks can pose a threat to a higher-level group of PCs. In Eberron, the rest of the world isn't supposed to control you. You are the hero of the story. At the begining, you're only powerful enough to deal with simple threats, and yes, the Sharn Watch is a challenge. By the time you're tenth level, you're supposed to be dealing with challenges no one else can face. When the Tarrasque shows up, you have to deal with it, because the city watch of Sharn simply AREN'T powerful enough. And if that means you choose to turn that power against society? Fine. But there's consequences for that too. Few people may have the power to stop you, but what will you do with it? You may be able to kill the king of Breland. But that won't make the Brelish people follow you. And from that point on, much of the world is against you. You'll have to worry about every meal - has it been poisoned by Thuranni assassins, or even just an innkeeper seeking vengeance for his murdered king? Do you have a safe place to sleep at night? Are you prepared for retaliation from those few high-powered characters who are out there? You may still HAVE the power to overcome all these things. You're higher level than that innkeeper and than the vast majority of Thuranni assassins (although Madra Sil Sarin shows that there are exceptions). But do you want to live your life under pursuit? Beyond this, there are exceptional characters out there, like the Knights Phantom. One of the things Forge of War does is to present the elite orders of each nation - groups that can rival mid-level PCs. But these characters are called out as being exceptional. Beyond this, you're the one who brought the DMG demographics into play. Even setting aside the fact that Eberron runs off lower demographics, the DMG is based on the idea that 90% of the world's population are 1st level commoners. All I'm saying is to think about what that means - about what that 4th-level knight is like when set next to a group of 1st-level commoners. In that world, you don't have to be high level to be impressive. Eberron seems to be a high magic world with a low power level... Really? I've never seen it as high magic. Sure, it's got flying ships (which are a very recent development). But it doesn't have teleportation networks. It doesn't have a network of sending stations or crystal balls. The streets aren't patrolled by iron golems. Airships aren't even made for war, and you don't have soldiers flying around on flying carpets. Great, it's got continual flame lights and whispering wind used for communication. Innkeepers use prestidigitation to heat and flavor food. That's not HIGH magic; it's WIDESPREAD magic. People are still impressed by teleportation, resurrection, and other high-level spells; they're simply comfortable with spells of third-level or below, because at that level you DO see casters who can perform them. But by the time you get to wish, teleportation circle, and the like? Those are miracles. You also level up quite fast so PCs will be nid level (5-10) reasonably quickly and they're amoung the most powerful people on Eberron. Yup. That's the point of PCs. That's while I continually emphasize the fact that NPCs don't advance the same way PCs do. It's like a movie; at the begining of the movie Luke is a lame farmboy; by the end, he's a hero of the Rebellion. When you start out at 1st level, you're not much to mention; but play a few adventures and you're a 4th level somebody, and soon you'll make it to 10th level and become one of the heroes of the age. It's one of the basic points of the game (Page 250 of the ECS, "The Player Characters Are Heroes!"). If you don't like it, you can ignore it. But it's a basic assumption of the setting. Realism isn't the concern. As the DM you're writing a novel or making a movie, and the PCs should clearly be the main characters in it. Either the Eberron commoners get payed more or the middle class earns alot more than the average commoner and is quite large. Khorvaire most certainly has a significant middle class. It's not medieval Europe; it's got more in common with the late 19th century-early 20th century. Telegraphs, trains, the beginning of air travel. You also have the dragonmarked houses, advanced multinational guilds that have themselves been in existence for over a thousand years. Besides which, if I read your math correctly, a suit of full plate costs $1 million; that griffon will run you $4.4 million; and Kaius is running around with $66 million in gear. Frankly, it's a game. The warforged are expensive enough to prevent them from replacing regular infantry, but the cost is low enough and the value is high enough (in terms of skills, racial immunities, and other benefits) to make them worthwhile for the proper tasks. They didn't replace the common soldier. At that price, they never would. But for the right assignments, two warforged would be worth it - just as for the right assignment, someone might spend 10,900 gp on an eternal wand of fireball. Different tasks, equal value. They're to expensive for elite formations in a battlefield. But that's just it, Zardnaar. Who's saying they WERE used for mass formations on the battlefield? From what I recall of Forge of War, it doesn't. The point is that they WERE too expensive to replace the common soldier. You might have a small - emphasis small - unit of warforged with an army that takes the vanguard. Or one that serves as a tireless scouting unit working in hostile environments. Or a handful of combat engineers who specialize in working 24-7 on fortifications. But they didn't replace human soldiers, because they were too expensive. Lower the price too far and you turn from the question of why they were used to why they weren't used in far greater numbers.
Hellcow 07-02-07, 07:39 PM	Reading it again, I'll just say that the demographics dragonshard (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20040712a) - written back when the setting first came out - really covers all of this. If I'd reread it earlier, I could have saved myself the time of writing my last post. It's approved by WotC design, and it's what we used when making Sharn. It addresses the role of PC and NPC classes among NPCs, the rapid advancement of PCs, and the difficulty of challenging high-level PCs. So you may want to take a look at it.
The Dreaming Duck 07-02-07, 08:51 PM	I realize now that I've wasted my life... or at least a few hours of it. Why are we arguing about this again? Zardnaar, between the two of us we've spent pages debating the price of something that ever be bought in the modern day, and which it's questionable if it could EVER be bought by private individuals in the past. In addition to which, as you've pointed out, NOTHING about D&D economics makes sense. While I'm not going to do the math myself, let's say you're right and 5,000 gp = 3 million dollars. That means Kaius is walking around with $66 million in bling on him. It means that a simple potion of cure light wounds costs $45,454. That assassin you were going to hire to kill a second level warforged? He wants $361,445.00 for the job - a little pricier than most hit men I've heard about. Even your simple 15 GP longsword costs around $9000 - let alone the $45,000 those peasants at Agincourt spent on their longbows. If your figures are right, NOTHING in D&D makes sense. So why start arguing with the warforged, something which can't even be purchased in the present day? You need to either accept that gold in D&D flat out doesn't make economic sense, and that the price of the warforged is balanced against the cost of similar magic items... or start from the ground up and change the amount of money a common laborer makes in a day, going from there. If the issue is that the 1 sp/day for the laborer equals $3,000,000 warforged, I'd change the salary of the laborer - because whatever you do with the warforged, you've still got that $45,000 longbow. Even that scroll of fireball is going to run you $230,000 for a single blast; is that really logical? Personally, I'm just going to ignore it and get back to gaming. ;) But if you want to do something, I'd address the root of the problem - the base level of coin in the hands of the commoner - than argue about the price of a single commodity in a world where EVERYTHING is overpriced.
Lelander_the_L 07-02-07, 09:04 PM	In the last war the Warforged were almost always titans and they cost about 10,000gp to make (The Forge of War)
Zardnaar 07-03-07, 01:38 AM	OK rant over I'll just say Warforged are over priced and leave it at that. Forge of War does sound interesting is it a sourcebook/novel. Eberron newb. Also does anyone know how much a creation forge it?
The Dreaming Duck 07-03-07, 01:14 PM	Nope, no idea on the price of a creation forge. Since they're eldritch machines, they aren't something you can easily just decide to build. Now, it seems to me that we've at least agreed to disagree, and I'm good with that. However, I finally took out Forge of War myself and read the section in question, and I find that I disagree with the basic assertions made - a warforged is 10,000 gp or 5,000 gp with discount, a shield guardian is 10,000 gp, etc. Let's look at the actual quotes. The techniques perfected by House Cannith resulted in a process for creating warforged soldiers that was remarkably cost-effective - at least when compared to golems or shield guardians, which cost a minimum of 10,000 gp to create. What this DOESN'T say is "A shield guardian costs 10,000 gp to create." We know how much a shield guardian costs to create - 65,000 gp and 4,500 XP. It's right there in the Monster Manual. What it DOES say is that when creating "golems or shield guardians" - and "golem" is a broad category, NOT a specific creature - the cheapest option is 10,000 gp. Shield guardians are chucked in as an example. It's just saying that the cheapest GOLEM is 10,000 gp. That would, in fact, be the flesh golem, which costs 10,500 gp + 780 xp. As a side note, it's never been stated that it costs XP to produce warforged. Since they are created through the forge and in mass numbers, this makes some sense - and would play a huge role in the ability to produce large numbers of warforged when it's impossible to produce an equal number of golems. If the artificers are out of XP, no golems for you - but you can still make warforged. So, the cheapest golem is 10,000 gp... and has a tendency to go berserk in combat, so you can see how it's not a great choice in an army. Warforged are "remarkably cost-effective" by comparison, implying that even the single warforged costs less than 10,000 gp - enough less to be "remarkable". With a functioning and well-maintained creation forge, a Cannith artificer can create a dozen warforged for a cost comparable to that of a single shield guardian. That cost? 65,000. Thus, according to this example, warforged are 5,416 gp. Slight problem here, but we'll come to it. Compared to the cost of feeding, armoring, and bunking a human soldier, spending between 5,000 and 6,000 gold pieces on a tireless, armor-plated soldier that needs no food and is immune to disease seemed like a very reasonable investment. There's the price tag. Apparently, if you're buying a warforged, it costs "between 5,000 and 6,000 gold pieces". This doesn't quite jibe with saying that the Cannith artificer can produce a dozen at the same cost as a shield guardian, because that would put the PRODUCTION cost at between 5,000-6000 gp. I'm guessing the designer got the 65,000 gp figure in his head and then forgot it was production cost and not market price. There's no way to know for sure, because no numbers are given. But this is a clear statement of how much people had to pay, and it's what I'll use. Not 10,000 gp, which is the minimum production cost of a golem: 5,000-6,000 gp for the customer, which is remarkably cost-effective compared to the standard market price of 20,000 gp for the flesh golem (though if you like soldiers made of dead guys who have a tendancy to go berserk and maybe kill their own comrades, go for it). Also, one of the key features? You're getting an armor-plated soldier. Again, backing up the "they have adamantine body" claim, since composite plating is like wearing leather armor, and you can't put other armor on top of it. If it's a selling point, you can assume it's the good stuff. So. The customer is paying 5,000 - 6,000 gp. But wait, there's more! Nevertheless, warforged costs were great... The house offered early discounts and reduced prices for large orders... They've given us the price the customer is considering: 5,000 - 6,000 gp. Thus, discounts and reduced prices are ON THAT PRICE. In other words, it's not 10,000 gp or 5,000 gp in bulk; it's 5,000 gp for an individual, and less than that in bulk. Again, when you factor in the armor value, I see the point here. But running down the facts: 10,000 gp is the least expensive golem - and the warforged are called out as being "remarkably cost-effective" in comparison. The price the customer is considering - when he compares it to the cost of his soldiers - is "5,000 - 6,000 gold pieces". The house offered "early discounts and reduced prices for large orders." So bought in bulk, the warforged were actually less expensive than 5,000 gp. While Forge of War doesn't back up Hellcow's preference that the average warforged was a second-level fighter, it does specifically note that "Even the rawest warforged deployed in battle is a trained fighter rather than a mere warrior, which helped justify the expense of a construct soldier." So there we do have the clear "PC classes are rare and all warforged used them" statement. If you prefer Hellcow's assertion that the typical one was 2nd-level, just play off the "the rawest warforged" statement and say that most were trained further. If you forced one into battle right away, you get a 1st-level fighter; if you take advantage of the chrysalis period described in the dragonshard, you can get a 2nd-level character before it runs out. I understand that you feel that 5,000 is still too much, Zardnaar - I'm fine with disagreeing there. But it is the case that 5K-6K is the base price that's then scaled down for a bulk order - not 10K scaled down to 5K.
Revvecor 07-03-07, 08:14 PM	Well said! :clap:
Kaladon7779 07-05-07, 12:31 PM	I understand that you feel that 5,000 is still too much, Zardnaar - I'm fine with disagreeing there. But it is the case that 5K-6K is the base price that's then scaled down for a bulk order - not 10K scaled down to 5K. 10,000 is way to little for a construct that thinks on its own and experiences on his own. Most golems/constructs you need to push money per Hit Die. So Hellcow what if some real hardcore gamer came along and said something stupid like... Can't you construct a warforged as. Base cost of level 1 Warforged = 10,000 So i've got Exceptional Artisan so 10,000 X .75 = 7500 Now I want him to have an Alignment specific so 7500 X .7 = 5250. Now isn't that considered a magical item since they get enchanted like one? So wouldn't I cut the cost in half since 5250 is the base price. So.... 5250 / 2 = 2625. :D I don't know it sounds stupid but I thought it was humerous. But i'm sure there are PPL that think that is completely within rules.
Cifer 07-05-07, 01:41 PM	10,000 is way to little for a construct that thinks on its own and experiences on his own. Most golems/constructs you need to push money per Hit Die. And that would be why the warforged are considered a revolutionary breakthrough in magical science.
The Dreaming Duck 07-05-07, 02:43 PM	And that would be why the warforged are considered a revolutionary breakthrough in magical science. Exactly. It's "remarkably cost-effective", and something that can only be done by a person with the Mark of Making and even then only when using an artifact-level focus item. Also, I don't see how you could consider warforged "alignment-specific"; their alignment isn't fixed (while they can be indoctrinated after creation, one of the points is that they can't be "programmed" before creation) and it's not like they can only be "used" by people of a certain alignment. Beyond that, I don't see the argument that they are "enchanted like magic items". We've never seen any sort of feat associated with their creation; they don't radiate magic; they don't become inert in an anti-magic field; and so on, and so on. They are living creatures created through a magical process, but they aren't created in the same manner as traditional golems or magic items; it's all about the creation forge. But the key is that it is both a breakthrough and one called out as being surprisingly cheap in comparison to a golem.
The Dreaming Duck 07-05-07, 02:46 PM	Most golems/constructs you need to push money per Hit Die. I do think it's logical to assume that if there IS variation in hit dice - if you can purchase a 1st-level "raw" warforged or a 2nd-level trained one - that you would be paying more for warforged #2. Maybe not twice as much, but certainly more. (And I realize you were presenting the creation formula as a wacky argument, not necessarily as a serious one - I didn't mean to come across as too critical in my previous message.)
ArcTan 07-05-07, 08:20 PM	I do think it's logical to assume that if there IS variation in hit dice - if you can purchase a 1st-level "raw" warforged or a 2nd-level trained one - that you would be paying more for warforged #2. Maybe not twice as much, but certainly more. (And I realize you were presenting the creation formula as a wacky argument, not necessarily as a serious one - I didn't mean to come across as too critical in my previous message.) But once you buy the Warforged, he can learn and gain XP on his own and increase in level, which no other Construct we're aware of does.
The Dreaming Duck 07-05-07, 09:36 PM	But once you buy the Warforged, he can learn and gain XP on his own and increase in level, which no other Construct we're aware of does. Certainly. And clearly some (warforged) did, since IIRC the typical member of the Iron Watch in Stormreach is a 4th-level fighter. But that's what makes them a revelutionary breakthrough in magical science!