Artificer Feat Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Artificer Feat Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
DrOfDemonology
03-16-07, 07:38 PM I'm not sure if this has been covered before, and if it has I apologise for posting the subject. My question regards this:

In describing Bonus Feats, the book says an Artificer gets a bonus at 4th lvl and every 4 levels after, and among the list of feats they can choose from is Craft Construct (P.303 of MM v.3.5). In reading the description of Craft Construct, its prerequisites are Craft Magic Arms & Armour and Craft Wondrous Item. Craft Magic Arms & Armour is normally only available at Caster Level 5 or higher.

My question is: Does the Artificer bonus bypass this stipulation? The Monk, for example, can choose a variety of bonus Feats at certain times and doesn't have to meet the requirements, as the PHB says. But the ECS book doesn't make this clear. If the Artificer still needs to be 5th Level or higher, that's fine; I have no problem with it either way. I would just like to be clear for when I design any NPC Artificers, or if a player wishes to have one as a character.

I'm hoping someone can give me a clear, definitive answer.

My thanks :)
Cifer
03-16-07, 07:52 PM It's generally mentioned when bonus feats circumvent requirements - here, it's not the case.

Plus, I doubt there are that many constructs available for the money a 4th level artificer has...
RogueElement
03-16-07, 08:08 PM D&D Screwup #342: You can use Craft Construct to create Effigies at 4th level (assuming you can get the feat without the feat prereqs) but Artificers can NOT use their Craft Homunculus ability to create a homunculus at 4th level. Why? Because all homunculi require Arcane Eye to build and an artificer can not emulate that spell until 5th level!
Dragom
03-16-07, 08:26 PM Because all homunculi require Arcane Eye to build and an artificer can not emulate that spell until 5th level!

Can you believe I never ever noticed that one? Mainly because I've never looked for or at Arcane Eye.
DrOfDemonology
03-16-07, 08:34 PM Plus, I doubt there are that many constructs available for the money a 4th level artificer has...

Well, maybe if it's made of paper and popsicle sticks...:heehee
Dragom
03-16-07, 08:38 PM Yes the dreaded wood and paper golem. 50% bleeding damage 50% splinters on each attack? Take double damage from fire? Stands 12 feet tall and weighs 60 lbs?

Ya those are so cool. CR 3 I think?
Edymnion
03-16-07, 08:47 PM I'm hoping someone can give me a clear, definitive answer.Does it say anywhere "...even if you do not meet the prereqs"? If not, then no, you just get a bonus feat that could be used for that. Just like at 3rd level you get a feat that *COULD* be used for anything in the book.

Unless it specifically tells you that you treat the bonus feat differantly, you don't.
RogueElement
03-16-07, 08:49 PM Yes the dreaded wood and paper golem. 50% bleeding damage 50% splinters on each attack? Take double damage from fire? Stands 12 feet tall and weighs 60 lbs?

Ya those are so cool. CR 3 I think?

Madre De Dios, es La Pinata De Doom! No me gusta!
Dcourt99
03-24-07, 09:02 AM D&D Screwup #342: You can use Craft Construct to create Effigies at 4th level (assuming you can get the feat without the feat prereqs) but Artificers can NOT use their Craft Homunculus ability to create a homunculus at 4th level. Why? Because all homunculi require Arcane Eye to build and an artificer can not emulate that spell until 5th level!

I don't remember where on the boards I read it but I believe the caster level requirement only applies to scrolls, potions, wands, and items that specificly state a caster level.

He must meet the caster level prerequisite, including the minimum level to cast a spell he stores in a potion, wand, or scroll.

So for the Arcane Eye requirement you only need to be able to hit the DC 27 UMD check.
Dragom
03-24-07, 12:22 PM I don't remember where on the boards I read it but I believe the caster level requirement only applies to scrolls, potions, wands, and items that specificly state a caster level.

The specific caster level stated can be completly ignored. The Required caster level to cast the requiset spell cannot.
Edymnion
03-24-07, 01:02 PM Yes, the caster level on many items can be ignored because many of them are actually higher than they need to be to get the same effect, typically in order to increase the price of the item to keep it from being too cheap.

That said, there is still a minimum level that can't be reduced any more. A lvl 2 Artificer cannot make a scroll of Fireball, even if he could make the UMD for the item, because his caster level is only 4 for purposes of determining what he can and cannot craft, while the absolute minimum level needed for anything requiring Fireball is 5th, since that is the earliest level any normal caster class can get it.

Same goes for Arcane Eye.
Although a lower level Artificer could always make a UMD check to cast the spell from a scroll while crafting, which would allow him to make a homunculus before he could fake Arcane Eye on his own. Or, he could have another caster come in and provide the spell for him, while he does the rest of the work. There are plenty of ways to get around the problem.
Kensan_Oni
03-24-07, 01:08 PM Yes the dreaded wood and paper golem.

Sigged!
Belabras
03-24-07, 03:16 PM Yes the dreaded wood and paper golem.

I know you meant it as a joke, but Dragon #341 actually has stated up lower caster level golems - including the Wood Golem and the Paper Golem. There are a couple of other CL5 golems in there too, tailor made for artificers that want to start making golems right away.
Dragom
03-25-07, 07:01 PM Believe it or not, but I kind of miss the wood golem from my D&D expert book.

I can't believe it never got reprinted. I understand the abscence of the Giant leach and that falling stalagmite shaped monster though.
Edymnion
03-25-07, 07:12 PM I can't believe it never got reprinted. I understand the abscence of the Giant leach and that falling stalagmite shaped monster though.The piercer? I was pretty sure that saw a 3e printing...
Dragom
03-25-07, 07:34 PM They did the kamakazi snail with a pointy shell but have been waited over a decade to reprint the wood golem?
Edymnion
03-25-07, 08:04 PM They did the kamakazi snail with a pointy shell but have been waited over a decade to reprint the wood golem?Hmmm... try checking the various Fiend Folios. A lot of older stuff got printed in them, like the Tabaxi.
AvonRekaes
03-25-07, 11:45 PM There was a web article about monsters carrying over through the editions of the game. Peircers got transformed into the Darkmantle.
Forged_Fury
03-28-07, 11:58 PM There was a web article about monsters carrying over through the editions of the game. Peircers got transformed into the Darkmantle.

It's also implied in the flavor text of the darkmantle... something about evolving from a less formidable creature. The piercer was an awful opponent. If it missed, it could only crawl away.
goblin_pride
03-30-07, 02:13 PM There was a web article about monsters carrying over through the editions of the game. Peircers got transformed into the Darkmantle.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it the Cloaker that got changed to the Darkmantle? Piercers got completely wiped out in the edition shift, thankfully.
Pinky's brain
03-30-07, 03:20 PM Because all homunculi require Arcane Eye to build and an artificer can not emulate that spell until 5th level!Why not?
Pinky's brain
03-30-07, 03:22 PM That said, there is still a minimum level that can't be reduced any more. A lvl 2 Artificer cannot make a scroll of Fireball, even if he could make the UMD for the item, because his caster level is only 4 for purposes of determining what he can and cannot craft, while the absolute minimum level needed for anything requiring Fireball is 5th, since that is the earliest level any normal caster class can get it.

Same goes for Arcane Eye.
It's not the same since in this case there is no caster level prerequisite ... and the entry about the fireball scroll is entirely about the caster level prerequisite.
Cifer
03-30-07, 03:46 PM However, it may be possible to ask a friend whether one could borrow a minor schema of the required spells - after all, that Favored in House has got to be good for something, hasn't it?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DrOfDemonology 03-16-07, 07:38 PM	I'm not sure if this has been covered before, and if it has I apologise for posting the subject. My question regards this: In describing Bonus Feats, the book says an Artificer gets a bonus at 4th lvl and every 4 levels after, and among the list of feats they can choose from is Craft Construct (P.303 of MM v.3.5). In reading the description of Craft Construct, its prerequisites are Craft Magic Arms & Armour and Craft Wondrous Item. Craft Magic Arms & Armour is normally only available at Caster Level 5 or higher. My question is: Does the Artificer bonus bypass this stipulation? The Monk, for example, can choose a variety of bonus Feats at certain times and doesn't have to meet the requirements, as the PHB says. But the ECS book doesn't make this clear. If the Artificer still needs to be 5th Level or higher, that's fine; I have no problem with it either way. I would just like to be clear for when I design any NPC Artificers, or if a player wishes to have one as a character. I'm hoping someone can give me a clear, definitive answer. My thanks :)
Cifer 03-16-07, 07:52 PM	It's generally mentioned when bonus feats circumvent requirements - here, it's not the case. Plus, I doubt there are that many constructs available for the money a 4th level artificer has...
RogueElement 03-16-07, 08:08 PM	D&D Screwup #342: You can use Craft Construct to create Effigies at 4th level (assuming you can get the feat without the feat prereqs) but Artificers can NOT use their Craft Homunculus ability to create a homunculus at 4th level. Why? Because all homunculi require Arcane Eye to build and an artificer can not emulate that spell until 5th level!
Dragom 03-16-07, 08:26 PM	Because all homunculi require Arcane Eye to build and an artificer can not emulate that spell until 5th level! Can you believe I never ever noticed that one? Mainly because I've never looked for or at Arcane Eye.
DrOfDemonology 03-16-07, 08:34 PM	Plus, I doubt there are that many constructs available for the money a 4th level artificer has... Well, maybe if it's made of paper and popsicle sticks...:heehee
Dragom 03-16-07, 08:38 PM	Yes the dreaded wood and paper golem. 50% bleeding damage 50% splinters on each attack? Take double damage from fire? Stands 12 feet tall and weighs 60 lbs? Ya those are so cool. CR 3 I think?
Edymnion 03-16-07, 08:47 PM	I'm hoping someone can give me a clear, definitive answer.Does it say anywhere "...even if you do not meet the prereqs"? If not, then no, you just get a bonus feat that could be used for that. Just like at 3rd level you get a feat that COULD be used for anything in the book. Unless it specifically tells you that you treat the bonus feat differantly, you don't.
RogueElement 03-16-07, 08:49 PM	Yes the dreaded wood and paper golem. 50% bleeding damage 50% splinters on each attack? Take double damage from fire? Stands 12 feet tall and weighs 60 lbs? Ya those are so cool. CR 3 I think? Madre De Dios, es La Pinata De Doom! No me gusta!
Dcourt99 03-24-07, 09:02 AM	D&D Screwup #342: You can use Craft Construct to create Effigies at 4th level (assuming you can get the feat without the feat prereqs) but Artificers can NOT use their Craft Homunculus ability to create a homunculus at 4th level. Why? Because all homunculi require Arcane Eye to build and an artificer can not emulate that spell until 5th level! I don't remember where on the boards I read it but I believe the caster level requirement only applies to scrolls, potions, wands, and items that specificly state a caster level. He must meet the caster level prerequisite, including the minimum level to cast a spell he stores in a potion, wand, or scroll. So for the Arcane Eye requirement you only need to be able to hit the DC 27 UMD check.
Dragom 03-24-07, 12:22 PM	I don't remember where on the boards I read it but I believe the caster level requirement only applies to scrolls, potions, wands, and items that specificly state a caster level. The specific caster level stated can be completly ignored. The Required caster level to cast the requiset spell cannot.
Edymnion 03-24-07, 01:02 PM	Yes, the caster level on many items can be ignored because many of them are actually higher than they need to be to get the same effect, typically in order to increase the price of the item to keep it from being too cheap. That said, there is still a minimum level that can't be reduced any more. A lvl 2 Artificer cannot make a scroll of Fireball, even if he could make the UMD for the item, because his caster level is only 4 for purposes of determining what he can and cannot craft, while the absolute minimum level needed for anything requiring Fireball is 5th, since that is the earliest level any normal caster class can get it. Same goes for Arcane Eye. Although a lower level Artificer could always make a UMD check to cast the spell from a scroll while crafting, which would allow him to make a homunculus before he could fake Arcane Eye on his own. Or, he could have another caster come in and provide the spell for him, while he does the rest of the work. There are plenty of ways to get around the problem.
Kensan_Oni 03-24-07, 01:08 PM	Yes the dreaded wood and paper golem. Sigged!
Belabras 03-24-07, 03:16 PM	Yes the dreaded wood and paper golem. I know you meant it as a joke, but Dragon #341 actually has stated up lower caster level golems - including the Wood Golem and the Paper Golem. There are a couple of other CL5 golems in there too, tailor made for artificers that want to start making golems right away.
Dragom 03-25-07, 07:01 PM	Believe it or not, but I kind of miss the wood golem from my D&D expert book. I can't believe it never got reprinted. I understand the abscence of the Giant leach and that falling stalagmite shaped monster though.
Edymnion 03-25-07, 07:12 PM	I can't believe it never got reprinted. I understand the abscence of the Giant leach and that falling stalagmite shaped monster though.The piercer? I was pretty sure that saw a 3e printing...
Dragom 03-25-07, 07:34 PM	They did the kamakazi snail with a pointy shell but have been waited over a decade to reprint the wood golem?
Edymnion 03-25-07, 08:04 PM	They did the kamakazi snail with a pointy shell but have been waited over a decade to reprint the wood golem?Hmmm... try checking the various Fiend Folios. A lot of older stuff got printed in them, like the Tabaxi.
AvonRekaes 03-25-07, 11:45 PM	There was a web article about monsters carrying over through the editions of the game. Peircers got transformed into the Darkmantle.
Forged_Fury 03-28-07, 11:58 PM	There was a web article about monsters carrying over through the editions of the game. Peircers got transformed into the Darkmantle. It's also implied in the flavor text of the darkmantle... something about evolving from a less formidable creature. The piercer was an awful opponent. If it missed, it could only crawl away.
goblin_pride 03-30-07, 02:13 PM	There was a web article about monsters carrying over through the editions of the game. Peircers got transformed into the Darkmantle. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it the Cloaker that got changed to the Darkmantle? Piercers got completely wiped out in the edition shift, thankfully.
Pinky's brain 03-30-07, 03:20 PM	Because all homunculi require Arcane Eye to build and an artificer can not emulate that spell until 5th level!Why not?
Pinky's brain 03-30-07, 03:22 PM	That said, there is still a minimum level that can't be reduced any more. A lvl 2 Artificer cannot make a scroll of Fireball, even if he could make the UMD for the item, because his caster level is only 4 for purposes of determining what he can and cannot craft, while the absolute minimum level needed for anything requiring Fireball is 5th, since that is the earliest level any normal caster class can get it. Same goes for Arcane Eye. It's not the same since in this case there is no caster level prerequisite ... and the entry about the fireball scroll is entirely about the caster level prerequisite.
Cifer 03-30-07, 03:46 PM	However, it may be possible to ask a friend whether one could borrow a minor schema of the required spells - after all, that Favored in House has got to be good for something, hasn't it?