Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Edymnion 02-15-07, 12:10 PM	Okay, the Artificer Guide 2.0 has gotten entirely too long and unweildy to effectively serve it's purose, so its time for another reboot, to 3.0 this time. I also have a confession to make. 1. I have only sporadically checked in on the thread we have now over the past several months, as the discussions going on in it were all pretty much off topic. 2. After going through the first half dozen pages of the thread, I just can't work up the gumption to go through 15 more to pull out the gems in the rough that I can actually use to update the guide with. So, I'm taking a differant approach to it this time, an approach which involves you guys! I'd like to request that anyone that wants to help to read the 2.0 guide and take note of what you think it should have added to it, what you think needs changing, what needs removing entirely, etc. Those of you that have been active in the thread this whole time (I'm looking at you Ael ;)), I'm sure you already know what you think needs to be added/removed/changed, so feel free to chime in. Basically, anything that isn't in the guide itself (the first two posts in the current thread) is fair game as for what to add (as in, if somebody had a good suggestion on page 13, copy it over here). I'll then use the suggestions from this thread, along with the 2.0 guide, to form the basis of the 3.0 thread. Sound good?
mightyix 02-15-07, 01:34 PM	I think the original intro is pretty good. Most, if not all of that should be kept. I think sections should be added on how to make: A blastificer A bufficer An ominissifer And any of the other major themes (without going so far as the CO board) should be covered. I've got a thread on the CO board that I'd like to eventually add to the Warlock Guide on "magic items specifically useful to this class" that we could try and comb through the zillions of Artificer Guide 2.0 posts for. The artificer is probably the most complicated class in the game and it has recieved very little support in how to build one from WotC compared to the other base classes. Perhaps we should take a hint from PHB II and put together something akin to the 'standard build suggestions'.
Balkazar 02-15-07, 08:42 PM	I agree with Mighty, however, I think the races should be expanded to the more unique races that would usually be bypassed. Perhaps a Kobold (My favorite race). Kobold Trapsmith could be taken to a whole new lvl. I think that a Crossificer should be taken advantage of. More damage at the cost of less attacks unless you got a good DM whos flexible and you add (Quick loading) to it. I also think that special mention of different Magical weapons and armor enhancements would be good, both ranged and melee weapons. Also all types of armor. Showing different builds for each kind of Artificer is also a good thing too.
Edymnion 02-15-07, 08:54 PM	I agree with Mighty, however, I think the races should be expanded to the more unique races that would usually be bypassed. Perhaps a Kobold (My favorite race). Kobold Trapsmith could be taken to a whole new lvl.Thats one thing I won't do, actually. Again, this is aimed at new artificer players and people that don't know how the class works. It specifically will not referance any non-core, non-ecs races. I intend to hold to that principle across the board really. The guide will be targetted at people that have never played an Artificer before, and have no idea how it is supposed to work. It will not go into detailed breakdowns on everything, but a "How to do this kid of build" outline is probably a good idea. I'm also thinking of expanding the magical item creation material to include a complete walk through of the process for something simple.
aelryinth 02-16-07, 12:17 AM	I believe I did that to some extent with my long wands post. I also gave suggestions on the kinds of wands a Wandificer should be shooting for. Trying to hold to core or ECS rules could be a trip. Many of the best spells are certainly not core (such as the various Orb spells). ===Aelryinth
Balkazar 02-16-07, 01:27 AM	Picking a race is key to being an artificer for both Flavour and Role playing. Suggestions for the race is a good thing. You listed the core races but forgot alot of the other races that would bring so much to the artificer. Or you lack imagination to even imagine how cool it would be. Besides YOU asked US *The people on the boards* what we thought and if your gonna smack down everything that people think, then you shouldnt have started this link in the first place. *Unwatched thread*
The Law 02-16-07, 04:08 AM	Gee Balkazar, that was entirely unnecessary. Edymnion, I concur that one should have at least one build of each of the archetypes for artificers (perhaps 2). I read your guide when I built my first arty, but found it a bit too "high level" - I had to refer to the CO boards and do a significant amount of posting and decision-making myself before I could make my character (a blaster) up to the standard that I wanted. Don't get me wrong, I read your guide twice and it was a good read, and it certainly helped in the building process :) I realize that your guide is exactly that - a guide - and not a full breakdown on every option, but I suspect that a truly great guide (one worthy of "a new release number" like 3.0) should add on to what was offered before. If your readers are asking for "new features" then I think you should consider them :) Your guide would really be great if it caters to players that have an "advanced understanding" of the mechanics (like most DMs or CO board regulars) and to complete noobs. Regards Law
Cabral 02-16-07, 08:10 AM	The content is great, so here's some organizational suggestions: If there are any lengthy sections that might benefit from a detailed versus summarized version, use to give a short, clean appearance to the guide. I don't know how this will affect printing it. Link to other discussion threads (one general, and several by topic) and leave the main thread as a reference thread. That should avoid the new thread becoming unwieldy. Also, as I mentioned elsewhere, a section for DMs of artificers, or even just link to a good thread, it would be great help to players and DMs alike.
Edymnion 02-16-07, 08:26 AM	Trying to hold to core or ECS rules could be a trip. Many of the best spells are certainly not core (such as the various Orb spells).Well, I don't plan on sticking entirely to core and ecs, just for the races and classes.Besides YOU asked US *The people on the boards* what we thought and if your gonna smack down everything that people think, then you shouldnt have started this link in the first place.Yes, I asked for suggestions. That does not mean I am going to use every last thing people can think up. I'm not putting in a section on Drow Artificers, or Giant Artificers, or Thri-Keen Artificers either. I am assuming that anyone reading it, once they understand how the artificer works, will have enough intelligence to apply that newfound knowledge to other areas than just the basics. If you want to play a half-dragon half-illithid half-golem pixie with the Mark of Death, go right ahead, but don't expect me to do all the work for you by making an entire writeup for it in a newbies guide.
RogueElement 02-17-07, 09:26 PM	Suggestions on race substitution levels for the Artificer would be very helpful. But you're right, there's no reason to get into great depth on every PC and monster race out there. What you have so far in 2.0 is great. In the section on the Craft Homunculus class ability, I would mention that even though you get that ability at 4th level, you can't actually create any of the homis until you're 5th level (arcane eye is the limitation). I would especially mention that in any sections talking about the Warforged substitution level because I think most people would want to take the 4th substitution level ability over the Craft Homunculus ability. Many huge thanks for the Artificer 2.0 guide, I'm still studying it for my artificer character! :clap:
Edymnion 02-17-07, 10:20 PM	I think most people would want to take the 4th substitution level ability over the Craft Homunculus ability.Yeah, considering you can just take Craft Construct at lvl 6 and get the same abilities.
MiscDebris 02-17-07, 11:36 PM	Yeah, considering you can just take Craft Construct at lvl 6 and get the same abilities. Actually, it's not the same thing. If you're after the homoculi specifically, the Artificer ability lets you exceed the advancement HD cap. My artificer is actually going to use both of them for this reason.
RogueElement 02-17-07, 11:52 PM	Here's another FAQ: "Does an Artificer have to pay for the spell components for spells he's emulating while crafting a magic item?" For example, in order to create a scroll of Identify, does he have to pay for a 100gp pearl?
Cabral 02-17-07, 11:58 PM	Yes, he does. The Infusions ignore arcane material components, but item creation does not have that clause.
mightyix 02-18-07, 01:13 AM	That might be a good thing to include in the guide. A brief discussion of how infusions work. We don't need the whole infusion encyclopaedia of use, but some of the more common things should be addressed. Like: - They don't require material components to cast when they emulate an arcane spell but when creating an item, the components are required as normal to imbue the item. - etc. I'm not an expert on infusions or artificers (yet) so I'd find this sort of thing very helpful.
glug 02-19-07, 11:56 AM	Yes, he does. The Infusions ignore arcane material components, but item creation does not have that clause. What about the Identify Infusion? Rather than making a scroll, there is actually an infusion for identify. Does it require the same 100g worth of material components?
Grymar 02-19-07, 11:59 AM	How about detailed instructions on how to build golems? For instance, is it better to make a manual first? Does the CL16 rule for an iron golem apply or does the Artie's +2 CL count towards that?
RogueElement 02-19-07, 11:02 PM	Oops, found one errata in 2.0: Gnomes can't be Alchemist Savants, only Cannith humans. You'd think that the game designer would have called them "Cannith Alchemists", but it's probably the same stroke victim that came up with the name "Renegade Mastermaker". TPA saves lives people! Learn about it before another supplement book is ruined!
Cabral 02-20-07, 07:58 AM	What about the Identify Infusion? Rather than making a scroll, there is actually an infusion for identify. Does it require the same 100g worth of material components? Level: Brd 1, Magic 2, Sor/Wiz 1 ... Arcane Material Component A pearl of at least 100 gp value, crushed and stirred into wine with an owl feather; the infusion must be drunk prior to spellcasting. No, the infusion does not require a material component. Also, if you emulate the divine version (CL 3; DC 23), neither does the item. If you emulate the arcane version (CL 1; DC 21), the item does require it. A fist level artificer can make eitehr version, but may have (more) difficulty hitting the higher DC. So, to clarify the above post, item creation does not allow you to ignore arcane material components, but you can emulate a divine version of the spell to circumvent the requirement. The DC for the Use Magic Device check is based on the Caster Level needed for the version you are emulating.
Pinky's brain 02-20-07, 09:22 AM	Actually, it's not the same thing. If you're after the homoculi specifically, the Artificer ability lets you exceed the advancement HD cap. There is no advancement HD cap period, for any creature. Anyway, include a section on low level play.
MiscDebris 02-20-07, 10:03 AM	Advancement: 3-6 HD (Tiny) that seems to imply differently. Else it would say "3+ HD (Tiny)"
Pinky's brain 02-20-07, 10:43 AM	Read the description of the advancement entry in the front of your MM.
MiscDebris 02-20-07, 11:30 AM	(This is not an absolute limit, but exceptions are extremely rare.) I believe that is the line you're looking at. I concede. Also makes some changes to the future of my Artificer.
Seelenquell 02-20-07, 11:33 AM	I suggest doing a step-by-step explanation on item creation. Perhaps three expamples of varying complexity. I love the guide 2.0, but I had to post two threads and ask CustServ to really get it (at least I think so...). I think there are a lot of people who either don't get it, as I did, or don't do it properly.
Elderich 02-20-07, 11:55 AM	Do you want some help Edymnion? I am just thinking you might delagate some parts of the guide, which you then edit and integrate into the guide. I like your current guides look and feel, it just seems some topics need to be both more indepth, and more summarized. This is an echo of Cabral's (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11504824&postcount=8) post. I will volenteer to write whatever part you want. I really like the idea of a "Whats a DM (or Player) to do?" version of the guide. Some of the ideas of what an artificer can do is disturbing to some DM's and players. Pointing out to DM on how to manage and balance the class abilitites is a great service to the community. I think a guide on what have become "iconic" Artificer builds is important, but also important is "And the weakness of this build is..." We do not want players or DM's to get the wrong idea that any artificer build breaks the game.
MiscDebris 02-20-07, 12:23 PM	Actually, now that I've checked everything out, dropping craft homoculous is an excellent idea especially if you don't like that bump to small that artificers have to do at 6 HD.
Edymnion 02-20-07, 12:59 PM	I think a guide on what have become "iconic" Artificer builds is important, but also important is "And the weakness of this build is..." We do not want players or DM's to get the wrong idea that any artificer build breaks the game.I've been reading over things like Complete Arcane here lately (its slow at work and I have nothing better to do), and I like how they've done things like breaking the spellcaster roll into things like "Blaster", "Buffer", "Sniper", giving suggestions of what spells/feats to take, what to avoid, etc. I may very well copy that for 3.0.
mightyix 02-20-07, 02:07 PM	PHB II has a breakdown by feats (generic ones, not Character Optimization ones) for quick character design by role at the back of the book. It might be worth doing a summary table like that for the major artificer builds too.
Cifer 02-20-07, 02:27 PM	It might also be possible to do "advanced" sections on the guide which go more indepth and sequester them off with spoiler boxes, so that the guide can cater to both people who want an easy entry into the class and those who are in for more advanced information without drowning the former in non-understood information. Thus the guide could read like this: Blastificer: The blastificer is an artificer which focuses on dealing damage with his spell trigger items. It bases on feat X, class Y and usually uses a wand of Z. A possible build would be... Further, it is advisable to use obscure rule A [book B] and the spell C [splatbook D] if they are permitted and the race E [Races of F] synergizes quite well with it.
Nightshade 02-20-07, 07:00 PM	Include a DM's section... include useful houserules for noob DM's and how to handle difficult situations. Provide Answers to questions like: does arcane spell failure apply to casting arcane scrolls? etc.
Fromost the Grimm 02-21-07, 07:36 PM	Bring on 3.0, I say. As an experienced player new to playing an Artificer, while I found the existing Guide more than handy, it was indeed rather toilsome near the end due to the various tangents it had split up into. Would it be worth doing an 'Artificers outside Eberron' section . . ? This was one of the main reasons I looked for a guide in the first place, and as the class is primarily Eberron-based, there are a few tweaks with respect to running one in a non-Eberron setting. The whole how-do-I-quicken-infusions-if-I-don't-have-action-points thing comes to mind. Oh, and really really really looking forward to seeing example builds with Wand Mastery taken at the pre-requisite 9th level, and not at the often-asked-yet-never-explained 8th level. You have no idea how frustrating it was to see that listed in most builds, yet not being able to find the 'trick' that allows it . . . Will keep a look-out for 3.0 thread, and chime in/contribute where I can. :)
Edymnion 02-21-07, 07:52 PM	Bring on 3.0, I say. As an experienced player new to playing an Artificer, while I found the existing Guide more than handy, it was indeed rather toilsome near the end due to the various tangents it had split up into. Would it be worth doing an 'Artificers outside Eberron' section . . ? This was one of the main reasons I looked for a guide in the first place, and as the class is primarily Eberron-based, there are a few tweaks with respect to running one in a non-Eberron setting. The whole how-do-I-quicken-infusions-if-I-don't-have-action-points thing comes to mind.Thats entirely doable. Oh, and really really really looking forward to seeing example builds with Wand Mastery taken at the pre-requisite 9th level, and not at the often-asked-yet-never-explained 8th level. You have no idea how frustrating it was to see that listed in most builds, yet not being able to find the 'trick' that allows it . . .I'm not even going to ask where you're supposed to get a feat at 8th level from with an Artificer... and no, I'm not asking for how its done on this thread. :P
RavenGraygem 02-21-07, 08:23 PM	You wouldn't have to actually stat out any races, but maybe offer a blurb for each? Example Warforged artificers tend to specialize in the creation and use of constructs... Gnomes who choose this class often study elemental item creation... And so on. Nothing encylopedic in size, but just what the common races focus most on. After all, I'm kinda curious as to what artificers from Aerenal do with their talents. And assuming I won't be tele-smitten for blasphemy (this being the Eberron boards and all), offer a few nuggets of insight for the people who want the artificer without using Eberron as the setting, like which infusions are setting-specific, alternate idea for action points to speed up infusion casting times, etc.
The Tracer 02-21-07, 09:02 PM	I'm also thinking of expanding the magical item creation material to include a complete walk through of the process for something simple. I would actually suggest that a complete walkthough of each kind of magical item is shown with amounts ect. Maybe even show where the artisan feats would affect the price. That was the biggest headache I had with the artificer was figuring out the item creation.
Pinky's brain 02-22-07, 03:59 PM	If I were you I would point out big sources of contention and provide multiple view. More concretely for item creation I would point out there is contention about emulating high level spells at low level, and point out some of the common views (I would also point out that those who say you have to be level 2*X-1 to emulate a spell of level X are not basing their views on the actual rules, but that's just my bias). Making a big splashy mention of the DMG errata and the main FAQ concerning CLs for items would also be appropriate, since very few people actual realise the CL entries for most magic items are essentially meaningless.
awaken_D_M_golem 02-22-07, 05:29 PM	Great Idea , dawg. and ... umm ... how about a 'small' section on the Artificer ( sub species Psionic ) yeah i know it never gets played , or talked about. a little boring up to 4th level , then at 5th psychic reformation kicks in. and 6th gets the link power psy-ref in 2 rounds ! lots of fun there :D and dorje / 'wands' don't have the cap at 4th level 'spells' / powers. a question , too : How much to charge to use 1 action point on somebody else ? further question : How much to charge to use 1 action point with LoP's Endless Spells ?
Elderich 02-26-07, 11:51 AM	If I were you I would point out big sources of contention and provide multiple view.Guest writers for the sections? Point by point bashing, just like a thread.More concretely for item creation I would point out there is contention about emulating high level spells at low level, and point out some of the common views (I would also point out that those who say you have to be level 2*X-1 to emulate a spell of level X are not basing their views on the actual rules, but that's just my bias).I got caught by this mistake. Edy, you might need to see how the Magical Item compendium changes how we view item creation.Making a big splashy mention of the DMG errata and the main FAQ concerning CLs for items would also be appropriate, since very few people actual realize the CL entries for most magic items are essentially meaningless.You might want to point out how the 3.0 FAQ still holds unless contradicted. And might mention all the 3.0 DMG errata that did not make it into the 3.5 DMG or it's FAQ.
Cabral 02-26-07, 09:30 PM	I would also point out that those who say you have to be level 2*X-1 to emulate a spell of level X are not basing their views on the actual rules, but that's just my bias It's not far off for items that produce a spell effect (ie, wands). In those cases, the formula is minimum artificer level = spell level * 2 -3, for most spells. Paladin, Ranger, Bard, and Sorcerer only spells may muck up that equation.
Pinky's brain 02-27-07, 10:05 AM	Those items are special, in the fact that they do have caster level prerequisites.
RogueElement 03-01-07, 08:17 PM	Here's an important house rule: replace Knowledge(the planes) with Decipher Script as a class skill. Alchemists and stage magicians throughout history (clear back to the ancient Greeks and Egyptians) came up with all kinds of ciphers, codes, and secret writing. And as an artificer in real life, I guarantee you that Decipher Script is a class skill. Can anyone but an engineer read a whiteboard after a 2 hour design meeting?
Edymnion 03-01-07, 09:35 PM	Can anyone but an engineer read a whiteboard after a 2 hour design meeting?Heh, reminds me of my college days (which weren't that long ago, less than a year). Especially my final project. We had our own lab on campus just for us to work in, and a series of whiteboards all the way down one wall. The amount of code, program flow design, and the rest that were on that wall must have looked like arcane forumulas and summoning circles to anybody that didn't know how to read it. The thing is though, just because you can make your own ciphers doesn't necissarily impart any ability to decipher someone else's. I mean, you as a physical engineer wouldn't be able to make heads nor tails out of my logic gate diagrams unless I stepped you through them, just like I couldn't make out your diagrams without similiar help.
RogueElement 03-02-07, 12:22 AM	Just wait until you have to decipher printer error return codes or uncommented Option-Explicit-Off/Option-Strict-Off VB code. My favorite adventure was when a Taiwanese (Taiwanian?) programmer's interface tool declared that "You are the self". Once you have to attend late night design meetings with left-handed Russians scrawling blurry UML diagrams over 4 whiteboards, you'll be grateful you maxed out your Decipher Script skill. They want an answer before they fly back to St. Petersburg at 3am that night and they get kinda cranky when you ask them questions, so you don't get to take 10 on the check. Alchemists and artificers have always tried to hide their design secrets with obscure language, difficult shorthand, and arcane jargon. The game is trying to read your master's notebooks and your competitors' journals. The Freemasons used all kinds of secret writing and Leonardo DiVinci is famous for ciphering his journals. I think they might have made a movie about it... Also, check out the movies The Prestige, National Treasure, and The Ninth Gate.
The Law 03-02-07, 12:39 AM	At the risk of going off-topic; it's like that in every industry. I'll be confused with your diagrams related to your engineering, and you'll be the same when I start talking EFT. MasterCard specs related to MPA EMV, SSL and triple DES encryption, DUKPT (derived unique key per transaction, a form of encryption used in POS environments), enterprise EFT production server performance profiling... try reading some real-time stats from an EFT switch that drives 25% of the ATMs in the USA. They'll just look like random numbers to anyone that isn't an EFT specialist. Likewise, my cousin is a medical doctor and I can't make out head or tails of the stuff I've seen on his desk. Point I'm trying to make is that in any of the sciences, you'll have "Decipher Script" relevant to your own field. Each industry has loads of technical jargon related to it, and you can only decipher the stuff in someone else's industry if it's very high level stuff. Same with the artificer; I don't think he should get decipher script due to real life parallels with engineers or mechanics. Thus I concur with Edymnion. Your opinion my differ from mine of course.
Cifer 03-02-07, 09:33 AM	I'd rather agree with Rogue. If we take artificers to have a certain connection to medieval alchimists and others of their kind, it would be fitting. And while we all work in different fields, I'd say the maths underlying each of it taught us (and quite probably the artificer) how to play the number games that feature prominently in cryptography - remember, this is a world where most ciphers will probably have to be encoded and decoded by hand, so they're not exactly 128-bit level. However, I wouldn't kick knowledge(planes) out. Who does elemental binding, after all?
FrostWolf 03-02-07, 11:59 AM	Hmm... How about (dunno if these have been brought up yet) Gods for the Articifer? (Gond would be a great choice) And A section on the better care and feeding/building of ones homunculus. With why you should and should not make them out of exotic materials. ( Behold! The Mithril Defender!) EDIT: yeah, there are just too many things you can make constructs out of, and most of em' are quite cheep. Living wood only ups the price of an object by 50%, but can permanatley attach a dryad to your packmate. And that isn't even the worst option. Living Metal..... Yesno?
skakid80 03-02-07, 03:50 PM	Something I might find helpful is a quick blurb on making eternal wands.
Elderich 03-02-07, 05:45 PM	Hmm... How about (dunno if these have been brought up yet) Gods for the Articifer? (Gond would be a great choice)Godds are... well... different in Eberron. I think Onatar has a lock on the forge and artificers, but it is the six, more than a specific deity.
Werebat 03-02-07, 05:59 PM	Thats one thing I won't do, actually. Again, this is aimed at new artificer players and people that don't know how the class works. It specifically will not referance any non-core, non-ecs races. I intend to hold to that principle across the board really. The guide will be targetted at people that have never played an Artificer before, and have no idea how it is supposed to work. It will not go into detailed breakdowns on everything, but a "How to do this kid of build" outline is probably a good idea. I'm also thinking of expanding the magical item creation material to include a complete walk through of the process for something simple. Two things... First, I can see the logic behind your not wanting to include non-core races, even if I think goblin artificers are cool. Hey, maybe they're just too cool to want to be included in your little guidebook, did you ever think of that? Well, maybe you should. :P Second, maybe you should wait a bit and look through the upcoming Magic Item Compendium before beginning to write a new guide. I suspect there might be enough information in there that could change some of the advice you give that it might be worth the wait. Again, thanks for a great service -- I'm more and more leaning towards a little orange artificer for my next PC. - Ron ^*^
Werebat 03-02-07, 06:05 PM	At the risk of going off-topic; it's like that in every industry. I'll be confused with your diagrams related to your engineering, and you'll be the same when I start talking EFT. MasterCard specs related to MPA EMV, SSL and triple DES encryption, DUKPT (derived unique key per transaction, a form of encryption used in POS environments), enterprise EFT production server performance profiling... try reading some real-time stats from an EFT switch that drives 25% of the ATMs in the USA. They'll just look like random numbers to anyone that isn't an EFT specialist. Likewise, my cousin is a medical doctor and I can't make out head or tails of the stuff I've seen on his desk. Point I'm trying to make is that in any of the sciences, you'll have "Decipher Script" relevant to your own field. Each industry has loads of technical jargon related to it, and you can only decipher the stuff in someone else's industry if it's very high level stuff. Same with the artificer; I don't think he should get decipher script due to real life parallels with engineers or mechanics. Thus I concur with Edymnion. Your opinion my differ from mine of course. Interesting... I teach ESL and over the years I have done so I have noticed myself picking up a kind of "decipher script" skill in that I can often get the gist of a seized note or sign in another language just because of the snips of the languages I have been exposed to over time. I can't really *speak* Spanish for example, but I can often figure out what a passage of text in Spanish is about, more or less. Same goes for Portuguese, Italian, Cape Verdean Creole, and a small number of others. As for Educational Jargon, well, that's a whole 'nother beast, and I do mean beast. I wish I DIDN'T know that bunk, but then I'm not bad at making it up. I invented WHIRL and TWIRL exercises, after all (What Have I Really Learned and Tell What I Really Learned). - Ron ^*^
RogueElement 03-02-07, 06:35 PM	At the risk of going off-topic; it's like that in every industry. I'll be confused with your diagrams related to your engineering, and you'll be the same when I start talking EFT. MasterCard specs related to MPA EMV, SSL and triple DES encryption, DUKPT (derived unique key per transaction, a form of encryption used in POS environments), enterprise EFT production server performance profiling... try reading some real-time stats from an EFT switch that drives 25% of the ATMs in the USA. They'll just look like random numbers to anyone that isn't an EFT specialist. Likewise, my cousin is a medical doctor and I can't make out head or tails of the stuff I've seen on his desk. Medical doctors are a perfect example of a class of alchemists that deliberately try to obscure their knowledge from the outside world. Doctors don't use Latin polysyllabic tongue twisters because it sounds cool, they use Latin to keep the ignorant masses from learning their secrets. It's difficult to make comparisons to modern day real life because we are so hyperspecialized now. But back in the olden days (like only a few generations ago), one guy would be the alchemist, surgeon, physician, astrologer, dentist, and financial advisor. Up until the early twentieth century it was literally possible for one person to know everything and deciphering script between one profession and another was much easier than it is today. Alchemists and other ancient artificers took their secret hoarding extremely seriously. There was (literally) cutthroat competition between ancient artificers and they would go to great lengths to hide and steal secrets from their rivals and even their own apprentices and masters. They used all kinds of obscure languages and difficult ciphers to hide their notes. And they would spend considerable time trying to decipher each others' notes to gain an edge. Check out the history of real life alchemists and ancient engineers and you'll see what I mean.
Werebat 03-03-07, 08:02 PM	It's difficult to make comparisons to modern day real life because we are so hyperspecialized now. But back in the olden days (like only a few generations ago), one guy would be the alchemist, surgeon, physician, astrologer, dentist, and financial advisor. And he'd be a gnome! :) - Ron ^*^
RogueElement 03-03-07, 11:18 PM	And he'd be a gnome! :) - Ron ^*^ Oy vey, what is this South Park now?
AbsentMindedProfessor 03-03-07, 11:34 PM	I'm not even going to ask where you're supposed to get a feat at 8th level from with an Artificer... and no, I'm not asking for how its done on this thread. :P Do you mean how to get Wand Mastery early at 8th? Or any feat at 8th? Surely you did not forget that Artificer's get a bonus feat at 8th. Though with as many threads as you respond to, Edy, it doesn't surprise me that one thing slipped. Really, how do you find the time to respond to everyone? :) As another idea to Artificer's Guide to 3.0, I'd like to know how the feats that you recommended in 2.0 are doing. Any 2nd thoughts or reaffirmations about your recommendations?
MiscDebris 03-04-07, 12:03 AM	Wand Mastery requires caster level 9.
Wraithcat* 03-04-07, 11:38 AM	Personally, I'm all for an expansion of the races discussed, in order to point out some of those that might go well with the class, but aren't part of the ECS or Core. Racial choices are important, and discussions like this are fairly standard in every other handbook, so I don't see why it can't be done for this one. I doubt anyone would fault you for not including the Jermlaine, Thri-Kreen, or Tarrasque but a discussion of some of the more reasonable and popular alterntatives, such as goblin, and whatever else would work well.
AbsentMindedProfessor 03-04-07, 11:07 PM	yeah, I know that Wand Mastery requires level 9, but I was just responding to the post because it seemed like Edy was confused (which is confusing to me :bow: ) as to how an Artificer got a feat at 8th level, not Wand Mastery in particular. Personally, I've never seen anyone's build with Wand Mastery earlier than 9th. Hopefully it was just an oversight, and not a "cheater" as described in the most recent Save My Game article.
MiscDebris 03-05-07, 01:48 AM	With some creative interpretation, you actually can take it at 8th. Both the caster level ioun stone and the imbue self warforged sub bump the caster level up 1. Hell, with wildmage and practiced spellcaster, you can qualify at 6th.
Edymnion 03-05-07, 08:25 AM	Surely you did not forget that Artificer's get a bonus feat at 8th.Why yes, yes I did, actually. Really, how do you find the time to respond to everyone? :) Shhh... I'm actually a highly advanced Turing algorithm. ;)
OneWinged4ngel 03-05-07, 08:54 PM	One thing I'd really like to see are more in-depth guides to various archetypes, such as the archeficer, meleeficer, blastificer, ninjaficer, golemficer, etc. And hopefully, some advice that doesn't rely entirely on things that are commonly banned, like polymorph or persistent spell (contrary to the Artificer's Handbook)
RogueElement 03-06-07, 08:09 PM	One thing I'd really like to see are more in-depth guides to various archetypes, such as the archeficer, meleeficer, blastificer, ninjaficer, golemficer, etc. And hopefully, some advice that doesn't rely entirely on things that are commonly banned, like polymorph or persistent spell (contrary to the Artificer's Handbook)My powergamer senses are tingling. Did someone say "banned"? I thought you have to burn a ton of charges (not to mention a couple of feats) to get a spell persistent using the artificer's Metamagic Spell Trigger ability? Is there a trick I'm missing because that seems very self-limiting?
The Law 03-07-07, 12:10 AM	My powergamer senses are tingling. Did someone say "banned"? I thought you have to burn a ton of charges (not to mention a couple of feats) to get a spell persistent using the artificer's Metamagic Spell Trigger ability? Is there a trick I'm missing because that seems very self-limiting? Metamagic Item Infusion. 3rd level. You can access to it by 5th level. Use it to infuse a wand with the Persistent metamagic feat, and abuse to your heart's content. You'll still only use one charge per casting. Artillery-boyz commonly use this with Twin Spell, and Buff-boyz use it with Persist. In my humble view, it is teh broken - when used with Persist, at least. Blasters need to spend a round "powering up" before they can start blasting. Buffers wake up in the morning, have a cup of tea and some scones, cast a Persisted buff or two, then go down to the local dungeon. You get the full benefits of Persist, without paying the sick charge cost. Metamagic spell trigger is only used in emergencies, due to the high charge cost. You could stack lower cost metamagic feats with higher ones through it though. For example, Twin your scorching ray wand via Metamagic Item, then Empower it with Metamagic spell trigger it once you're done casting your spell. Total cost: 3 charges. Total damage: varies, depending on where your DM stands with metamagic stacking. For some real cheddar, get an eternal wand - you'll never run out of charges and seeing that your spell is persistent, you'll only need a recasting on the same day as the original casting if you get dispelled.
The Law 03-07-07, 12:20 AM	Thats entirely doable. I'm not even going to ask where you're supposed to get a feat at 8th level from with an Artificer... and no, I'm not asking for how its done on this thread. :P I would assume the bonus feat that arties get at 8th level. It states you can pick Wand Mastery as a bonus feat, but people tend to forget that you need to be 9th level to qualify. Thus you can only use your 12th level bonus feat, or your regular 9th level feat.
RogueElement 03-07-07, 07:07 PM	Metamagic Item Infusion. 3rd level. You can access to it by 5th level. Use it to infuse a wand with the Persistent metamagic feat, and abuse to your heart's content. You'll still only use one charge per casting. Artillery-boyz commonly use this with Twin Spell, and Buff-boyz use it with Persist. In my humble view, it is teh broken - when used with Persist, at least. ... For some real cheddar, get an eternal wand - you'll never run out of charges and seeing that your spell is persistent, you'll only need a recasting on the same day as the original casting if you get dispelled. I think I had an evilgasm! :evillaugh
OneWinged4ngel 03-08-07, 02:46 AM	My powergamer senses are tingling. Did someone say "banned"? I thought you have to burn a ton of charges (not to mention a couple of feats) to get a spell persistent using the artificer's Metamagic Spell Trigger ability? Is there a trick I'm missing because that seems very self-limiting? You're missing some extremely obvious things which are the bread and butter of the Artificer class. Not knowing about Metamagic Item infusion raises the question: "Have you ever played an artificer past level 4?" Many of the build guides on the CharOp boards rely on such things that... well, frankly, many DMs will not allow, including persistent spell along with eternal wands, persistent unfetterred heroism with Wand Surge, anything involving polymorph and its general ridiculousness that even WotC urges you to disallow in their errata, and more. It's basically to the point where the handbook and such aren't as particularly useful as they could be outside of theoretical optimization. Heck, Persistent Spell itself is disallowed for many, many reasons, ranging from its inherent abusability to the fact that it's from an FR book. Anyways, here's what I'd suggest for the Artificer Guide 3.0: 1) Advice for creating characters that fill various artificer roles and archetypes, such as the archeficer, golemficer, buffificer, meleeficer, etc while taking into consideration the potential for some of the most commonly disallowed material might not be possible for everyone to use (or that some people just won't allow their conscience to do it :-p), complete with sample characters for each archetype. 2) Links to useful sources, be they various people's custom item creations, threads giving advice on the artificers, discussions on artificer rules, house rules related to artificers, etc. 3) More suggestions for gear useful to artificers. 4) Team strategies. How does an artificer most effectively support other classes? What are the different roles you can fulfill, and some advice for playing them. 5) Notable spells (either for being useful, interesting, or just plain fun) from various sources (especially more obscure ones).
RogueElement 03-08-07, 05:33 PM	You're missing some extremely obvious things which are the bread and butter of the Artificer class. Not knowing about Metamagic Item infusion raises the question: "Have you ever played an artificer past level 4?" What part of "I've never played an Artificer before" didn't you understand? Are you always so condescending at 3 in the morning? :D
Sion_Draco 03-08-07, 11:18 PM	-Snip- Heck, Persistent Spell itself is disallowed for many, many reasons, ranging from its inherent abusability to the fact that it's from an FR book. Actually, Persistent Spell was printed in Tome and Blood pg41 it's newest Revision for v.3.5 is in Complete Arcane pg81. Don't dis the feat and don't nerf the player, have a conversation and discuss the problem that you feel it creates. As a DM I have had far worse problems then Persistent Spell, but if you think it's a problem then discuss it with your players/DM. Either way it should still be in the Guide as a very good option for artificers if allowed by the DM. (I can't see why it shouldn't be, there a TONS :ton: of ways to get rid of wands and other trinkets that seems to be just as much of a problem as the feat.)
The Law 03-08-07, 11:30 PM	A wise man once said "ye who Persists frequently, can expecteth to be dispelled or anti-magicked even more so." :rimshot:
OneWinged4ngel 03-09-07, 12:29 AM	Actually, Persistent Spell was printed in Tome and Blood pg41 it's newest Revision for v.3.5 is in Complete Arcane pg81. Don't dis the feat and don't nerf the player, have a conversation and discuss the problem that you feel it creates. As a DM I have had far worse problems then Persistent Spell, but if you think it's a problem then discuss it with your players/DM. Either way it should still be in the Guide as a very good option for artificers if allowed by the DM. I am not implying that it should not be covered in the guide. I am simply saying that there should at least be some advice on how to build if it is *not* available, as it's one of those things that's commonly nerfed. Anyways, my bad on the source reference. A wise man once said "ye who Persists frequently, can expecteth to be dispelled or anti-magicked even more so." :rimshot: Which of course doesn't do much to the guy getting infinite free wand charges outside of battle. Or when you're not fighting dispelling enemies. Or when you've buffed yourself to the point that it's fairly difficult to dispel anything on you. And really, it's not like you're losing many resources on the deal if you actually get dispelled. The wise man loses to the intelligent player with actual experience and optimizing knowledge. Maybe the wise man shouldn't have tanked Int. :looloo: Anyways, the point is that many DMs disallow it, and there is indeed *good reason to.* Therefore, if you're going to try to make a universal guide, you should at least provide for the *possibility* of things commonly regarded as cheesy or problematic being disallowed, instead of limiting all advice to the assumption that persistent spell is available. To clarify once more: This is not saying that the guide should not cover the extreme utility of this feat. It simply is saying that we could use some build advice without it *also,* in the case of offering build advice for specific archetypes, such as the Meleeficer. So you might add the clause "If this tactic is not available, you might also consider..."
Pinky's brain 03-09-07, 07:03 AM	Persistent spell breaks the game in the same way that polymorph does ... if it's there and one player uses it to good effect there is no alternative anymore, everyone has to be optimized. These things are essentially optimization in a box, no effort required.
Elderich 03-09-07, 01:59 PM	Which of course doesn't do much to the guy getting infinite free wand charges outside of battle.An Artificer takes resources to do EVERYTHING. Can you explain how an artificer gets FREE wand charges outside of battle?Or when you're not fighting dispelling enemies. Or when you've buffed yourself to the point that it's fairly difficult to dispel anything on you.An artificer is rather easy to dispell, because casterlevel is very limited to keep items affordable.And really, it's not like you're losing many resources on the deal if you actually get dispelled.You need to actually create a buffing artificer and actually play one, or at least do a walk through. An artificer simply CANNOT persist many spells. And if it is any number the artificer will be out of spells and not able to rebuff until after resting. Anyways, the point is that many DMs disallow it, and there is indeed *good reason to.*Many DM's are simply ignorant on how persistent actually works and how to deal with it. I have personally shown 2 DM's the Persistent is not a problem, and now they play with it. It simply takes an educated and experienced person to explain it. Therefore, if you're going to try to make a universal guide, you should at least provide for the *possibility* of things commonly regarded as cheesy or problematic being disallowed, instead of limiting all advice to the assumption that persistent spell is available.Advice on how to use something often banned may be ignored. Advice not given cannot be created. Feel free to create your own guide.
RogueElement 03-09-07, 03:54 PM	A wise man once said "ye who Persists frequently, can expecteth to be dispelled or anti-magicked even more so." :rimshot: Definitely funny because it's true. Players: "Hey, how come every villain we come across has a Wand of Dispel Magic?" DM: "Because you keep Persisting your Eternal Wand of Protection of Evil" It's all part of the Player-vs-DM arms race.
RogueElement 03-09-07, 04:22 PM	Therefore, if you're going to try to make a universal guide, you should at least provide for the *possibility* of things commonly regarded as cheesy or problematic being disallowed, instead of limiting all advice to the assumption that persistent spell is available. To clarify once more: This is not saying that the guide should not cover the extreme utility of this feat. It simply is saying that we could use some build advice without it *also,* in the case of offering build advice for specific archetypes, such as the Meleeficer. So you might add the clause "If this tactic is not available, you might also consider..." The House Rule section of the Guide would be a good place to include a (brief) discussion of this. I would not expect DMs to ban Persistent Spell outright, but I would expect DMs to nerf it so that it won't work on single-round nukes like True Strike. But maybe I've been lucky to get DMs that don't like to punish players for being smart (and don't hesitate to kill PCs for being stupid).
Dragom 03-10-07, 02:04 AM	At the risk of going off-topic; it's like that in every industry. I'll be confused with your diagrams related to your engineering, and you'll be the same when I start talking EFT. MasterCard specs related to MPA EMV, SSL and triple DES encryption, DUKPT (derived unique key per transaction, a form of encryption used in POS environments), enterprise EFT production server performance profiling... try reading some real-time stats from an EFT switch that drives 25% of the ATMs in the USA. They'll just look like random numbers to anyone that isn't an EFT specialist. I feel left out. The most arcane thing in my work place is beer math. 157=13+1
Pinky's brain 03-10-07, 03:15 AM	but I would expect DMs to nerf it so that it won't work on single-round nukes like True Strike. I hope you mean wraithstrike. Persisting true strike is a bit futile (the spell is only useful on your next attack which has to come before the end of the next round ... that is all in the spell description, which is not changed by persistent spell, so essentially the duration of the spell is irrelevant).
Edymnion 03-10-07, 02:08 PM	And just for the record, I'm holding off on starting the 3.0 guide until I hear back from the WizO's on a few things.
RogueElement 03-10-07, 02:10 PM	I hope you mean wraithstrike. Persisting true strike is a bit futile (the spell is only useful on your next attack which has to come before the end of the next round ... that is all in the spell description, which is not changed by persistent spell, so essentially the duration of the spell is irrelevant). Ok, new rule: if you're posting at 3 in the morning, ask yourself "Am I really adding something to this discussion, or am I just nitpicking?" Then ask yourself the same question a second time. Then delete your post. Because the answer is: No one is coherent (or sober) at 3 in the morning. :D
Pinky's brain 03-11-07, 12:18 AM	An artificer simply CANNOT persist many spells. And if it is any number the artificer will be out of spells and not able to rebuff until after resting. Tenuously true before minor schemas ... but nowadays you can get an extra metamagic item infusion per day for 6K.
Balkazar 03-14-07, 03:13 PM	Psi Artificers for pure psionic games. Back in your other guide you barely mentioned the psi artificer. But in 3.0 you can mention some TIPS on how to use one in a psionic game and a Non-psionic game. Edy I apologize for my outburst on pg 1, I misunderstood what you meant and it was a tough day.
dunkeykong 03-14-07, 03:33 PM	here's what I'd suggest for the Artificer Guide 3.0: 1) Advice for creating characters that fill various artificer roles and archetypes, such as the archeficer, golemficer, buffificer, meleeficer, etc while taking into consideration the potential for some of the most commonly disallowed material might not be possible for everyone to use (or that some people just won't allow their conscience to do it :-p), complete with sample characters for each archetype. 2) Links to useful sources, be they various people's custom item creations, threads giving advice on the artificers, discussions on artificer rules, house rules related to artificers, etc. 3) More suggestions for gear useful to artificers. 4) Team strategies. How does an artificer most effectively support other classes? What are the different roles you can fulfill, and some advice for playing them. 5) Notable spells (either for being useful, interesting, or just plain fun) from various sources (especially more obscure ones). Seconded, I couldnt have put it any better. I await this guide with bated breath, Edy. Keep up the good work, comrade.
OneWinged4ngel 03-14-07, 03:37 PM	An Artificer takes resources to do EVERYTHING. Can you explain how an artificer gets FREE wand charges outside of battle? Persistent Spell Unfetterred Heroism with Wand Surge. Free casting. Free accelerated infusions. This is unlikely to be allowed in games other than high-powered, anything-goes games, or games where the DM doesn't really understand what he's letting players get away with. The House Rule section of the Guide would be a good place to include a (brief) discussion of this. I would not expect DMs to ban Persistent Spell outright, but I would expect DMs to nerf it so that it won't work on single-round nukes like True Strike. But maybe I've been lucky to get DMs that don't like to punish players for being smart (and don't hesitate to kill PCs for being stupid). I find it hard to see Persistant Spell as anything but broken. There are just *so* many ridiculously powerful things you can do with it, and if you have any clue what you're doing none of them are costly. You do not have to be smart to do broken things with it, and there are a million other ways that artificer players are rewarded for being smart anyways. The infinite wands thing is just one of many, many things that it can do. Additionally, you cannot persist True Strike anyways, which would suggest that you don't actually know the beast that you're talking about as insignificant. Also, I generally come to a new DM expecting him to ban the feat outright. I've played with a lot of varied groups, since I often play D&D online... and I've yet to see one experienced DM that was letting players get away with Persistent Spell, excluding a super-optimized game. The kind where people have +15 init and killer effects going at level 2. Advice on how to use something often banned may be ignored. Advice not given cannot be created. The problem with the CO guide was that the guide was *extremely reliant* on the assumption that Persistent Spell was there, and a great deal of the advice revolved around it. If that's to be ignored, then you've ignored a whole lot of the guide. If your builds are not for the many, many games that do not allow a certain tactic, then your guide is not *general.* A common principle of good design (such as in programming, for example) is to make any given program *general* to benefit the greatest number of people. Here's an example. If I go to the Artificer's Handbook on the CO board and look for the advice on building a meleeficer, the advice is very persist-centric. You don't get too much out of it without that. They cover a great number of effects, spells, feats, and abilities within the perspective of using Persistent Spell. All I'm saying is that I don't think that should be the core of Edy's guide. You need to actually create a buffing artificer and actually play one, or at least do a walk through. This seems to imply that you think I haven't. In reality, I have, and indeed am currently playing 2 artificers in 2 seperate campaigns. One's level 8, the other's level 2. If I was inclined to use Persistent Spell, I would be able to do a whole range of absurd things, such as... getting infinite wand charges. Also, check for ways to counter dispel. It shouldn't take you too long to find a good deal. From a simple counterspelling cohort (costs ya one feat) to spell turning or obscure items that make you immune to specific spells. However, again, Dispel requires someone to actually cast dispel on you... which means that you have no problem out of battle. I could potentially persist unfetterred heroism, gather a bunch of wands, use wand surge, and fill up my cohort with every sort of protective and evasive spell I can (it doesn't cost me anything), then do the same for myself, then have the counterspelling-specialized cohort counterspell any dispels, while I wail on everyone feeling invincible all day. I can also use an accelerated infusion on my armor or weapon that will help me block most means of dispelling. And then I laugh at CoDzilla because I'm immune to his radioactive fire all day, and then just stomp on him for absurd damage. I could even take a one level dip as a Cleric, never have to worry about emulating Divine elements, and get turning and Divine Metamagic. I then use nightsticks and Persist all I want. Alternatively, I get a bunch of schemas of Metamagic Item, and persist all I want. Alternatively, I can use Metamagic Spell Completion, which doesn't take any extra charges or anything, and persist all I want. There are plenty of ways to get Persist quite cheaply and efficiently. Am I listing enough ways to overpower the game for you? These are just the things off the top of my head, without even looking for anything with any real thought or effort put into it. I can get all the money I want, too, because I can cast all I want without a care. Find any spell that turns a profit, and spend all day casting it... because you're bloody unlimited. If your DM allowed you to use Persistent Spell, he's probably lenient enough to allow just about everything else. And if you allow Persistent Spell and everything else, then any Artificer who takes Persistent Spell basically wins the game, short of fighting other super-optimized enemies. Quite simply, Persistent Spell is one of the most abusable feats in the game. If you don't ban Persistent Spell, you have to ban a lot of other, otherwise less broken things, or your game *will* be broken by a moderately intelligent player. This is the problem with "You shouldn't ban anything!" Some things really *are* gamebreaking in the extreme. Persistent Spell is an example of such. It's just about on the top of the list of "most extremely abusable things in D&D." If you don't think so, you're probably inexperienced with mechanics, plain and simple. Because, quite simply, there are a hundred ways to break the game with Persistent Spell. Oh, and let me ask again Do I sound like someone who hasn't played an artificer, doesn't know the rules, or doesn't have extensive experience? Maybe you'd better reexamine that statement. Seconded, I couldnt have put it any better. I await this guide with bated breath, Edy. Keep up the good work, comrade. Thanks, glad you agree. ___ Anyways, that's the end of my rant :rant:. Anyways, that should demonstrate the error in the thinking of purists who think nothing should ever be banned, and why a guide shouldn't be focused on being from the perspective of ultimate optimization, though it should touch on such tactics.
OneWinged4ngel 03-14-07, 07:02 PM	This just in: Magic Item Compendium is, in a word, awesome. I must insist that the writers of the 3.0 Artificer's Guide include it in material considered for the guide, because this thing is going to become the bible for many crafters. Lots of great, reasonably priced items in there.
Elderich 03-15-07, 02:55 PM	Persistent Spell Unfetterred Heroism with Wand Surge. Free casting. Free accelerated infusions. This is unlikely to be allowed in games other than high-powered, anything-goes games, or games where the DM doesn't really understand what he's letting players get away with.How are you "Persistent Spell Unfetterred Heroism?" Scroll, staff, or schema means you wont see it until ~9th level, and be spending a TON of cash to do it. Honestly by the time you are the level you can do this it is not that big of deal. And you blew a MMI.I and a feat to do this. And this lets you cast an infusion in one round (like a wizard), which "Concurrent Infusions" already lets you do with 3 x 1st level infusions OR fire one charge out of a wand without using the wand charge. Kinda like warlock can. At 10th level this is not a big deal. And your party ends when you get dispelled, because your caster level will be the minimum to save you cash. Oh and you "Glow and Flash"TM when the BBEGs have "arcane sight" up. Also, check for ways to counter dispel. It shouldn't take you too long to find a good deal. From a simple counterspelling cohort (costs ya one feat) to spell turning or obscure items that make you immune to specific spells. However, again, Dispel requires someone to actually cast dispel on you... which means that you have no problem out of battle.Honestly, if you get in a dispelling match with your DM, then you loose. While there are MANY ways to help keep from being dispelled, ALL cost the scarce resource of GOLD.I could potentially persist unfetterred heroism, gather a bunch of wands, use wand surge, and fill up my cohort with every sort of protective and evasive spell I can (it doesn't cost me anything), then do the same for myself, then have the counterspelling-specialized cohort counterspell any dispels, while I wail on everyone feeling invincible all day.Look, you just cannot do this. You simply do not have the GOLD, or the INFUSIONS to persist many spells. You only get 3 or 4 3rd level infusions + int mod. That is your cap on your infusions. Perhaps you could also substitute your 4,5 and 6the level infusions , but you just do not have that many.I can also use an accelerated infusion on my armor or weapon that will help me block most means of dispelling. And then I laugh at CoDzilla because I'm immune to his radioactive fire all day, and then just stomp on him for absurd damage.Why don't you detail this tactic for the guide? Without details it is hard to engage the idea.I could even take a one level dip as a Cleric, never have to worry about emulating Divine elements, and get turning and Divine Metamagic. I then use nightsticks and Persist all I want. Alternatively, I get a bunch of schemas of Metamagic Item, and persist all I want. Alternatively, I can use Metamagic Spell Completion, which doesn't take any extra charges or anything, and persist all I want. There are plenty of ways to get Persist quite cheaply and efficiently. Am I listing enough ways to overpower the game for you? You simply cannot do these things. Again you do not have the GOLD! And you forgot your uses of MMST are capped to "An artificer can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Int modifier." You really need to actually PLAY a bufficer with a DM who is paying attention.I can get all the money I want, too, because I can cast all I want without a care. Find any spell that turns a profit, and spend all day casting it... because you're bloody unlimited.No, you can't. Firstly, that is not how THIS game is played! If you steal all the money from the bank in monopoly you win TOO! But that is not winning, and neither is "infinite wealth" scams. Remember there are wealth guidelines. You simply cannot "just get infinte gold 4 teh WIN!!!!!" Now IF your DM gives you better than normal gold, they should expect a power boost!Oh, and let me ask again Do I sound like someone who hasn't played an artificer, doesn't know the rules, or doesn't have extensive experience? Maybe you'd better reexamine that statement.Since you asked... Perhaps it is not your fault. Perhaps you simply play with a DM who does not know the rules? I do not know. I do know that most everything you are suggesting only works in a very limited capacity.
Pinky's brain 03-15-07, 03:46 PM	An action point every round any round is worth a ton of money (personally I don't allow custom staffs though). The warlock can't apply a metamagic feat to the stuff he casts for the cost of buffing one round. Dispel magic and it's kin are a counter, but they aren't a solution. Not every encounter should have to be tailored to neutralize the persistifier. That there are counters doesn't make it okay that for a relatively small expenditure in resources (as I said, metamagic item is 6K per use per day) he can walk over any encounter without such a counter.
awaken_D_M_golem 03-15-07, 05:10 PM	Psi Artificers for pure im-psionic games. Back in your other guide you barely mentioned the psi artificer. But in 3.0 you can mention some TIPS on how to use one in a psionic game and a Non-psionic game. The {psi-} Artificer prolly doesn't need a guide. Having had time to think about it , Psychic Reformation lets the psi-Arty be ALL variants of fill-in-the-blank - ificer. And get Expert1 for any skills ... heh Psionics is not broken , but the Psi-Arty is one tasty TO board nugget. Edy I apologize for my outburst on pg 1, I misunderstood what you meant and it was a tough day. wait , half the fun of playing an Artificer is ... Artificer on Artificer verbal violence. Most people wouldn't play an Arty , unless there was some Crossfire-ish promotion of it. Take back your apology and rant on :rant:
RogueElement 03-15-07, 11:14 PM	Honestly, if you get in a dispelling match with your DM, then you loose. While there are MANY ways to help keep from being dispelled, ALL cost the scarce resource of GOLD.Look, you just cannot do this. You simply do not have the GOLD... You can buy all the gold you need at ige.com...oh sorry, wrong game.
OneWinged4ngel 03-16-07, 02:40 AM	(Double Post)
OneWinged4ngel 03-16-07, 02:44 AM	How are you "Persistent Spell Unfetterred Heroism?" Scroll, staff, or schema means you wont see it until ~9th level, and be spending a TON of cash to do it. Honestly by the time you are the level you can do this it is not that big of deal. And you blew a MMI.I and a feat to do this. No, you can do this at very low level (as soon as you get level 3 infusions for the standard straight-class artificer), for *only* the cost of a scroll of unfetterred heroism, which is hardly a "ton" of gold. Also... uhhm, "Oh no, I blew an infusion and a feat to get infinite wand charges. Whatever shall I do?" :rolleyes: And this lets you cast an infusion in one round (like a wizard), which "Concurrent Infusions" already lets you do with 3 x 1st level infusions OR fire one charge out of a wand without using the wand charge. Kinda like warlock can. It lets you cast X spells from a wand without using a charge. X can be any number you want, up to the number of rounds in a day. So you could cast 1,000 spells a day from a wand. All it cost you was a single 5th level scroll. At 10th level this is not a big deal. And your party ends when you get dispelled, because your caster level will be the minimum to save you cash. Oh and you "Glow and Flash"TM when the BBEGs have "arcane sight" up. And you can probably kill him outright in one round, having persistent spells warning you when he's coming, boosting your initiative, and so forth. Honestly, if you get in a dispelling match with your DM, then you loose. Sure, because the DM can always do something like create an army of 1000 people casting mordenkainen's dysjunction, greater dispel, dispel magic, and so forth on you many times. He can also just say "you die." This doesn't actually prove anything. While there are MANY ways to help keep from being dispelled, ALL cost the scarce resource of GOLD. No... they don't. I actually gave an example countering this statement, which you've blindly ignored. Look, you just cannot do this. Yes you can. You simply do not have the GOLD, If you're level 9 like you postulated, you indeed DO have the gold to afford a scroll of Unfetterred Heroism, which is *all you need*. Then you can get all the charges you want out of whatever wands or staffs you have. or the INFUSIONS to persist many spells. Yes you do! It doesn't cost you anything once you actually start the cheese! You get *free wand charges.* Or do you not understand how the RAW works? It takes only *one* persisted spell to break the game. If a wand has *free charges*, you don't need gold. See, here's the really difficult math for you, just since I know it can be difficult for you to understand. Wand charge costs 1 action point with wand surge. You get one temp action point every round. Gold cost? Zero. So, if you cast 1000 spells, 0x1000=0. Zero times anything equals zero. In addition, I already listed ways to counteract dispelling. Actually reading the argument might help you not to look stupid. I already listed a way to counteract dispelling that doesn't cost you much or even any gold (Cohort counterspells), as well as noting that even if you do get dispelled, you're still WAY into the realms of heavy abuse otuside of battle. If you actually must persist many spells, let's look at what you can do. 1) You can use ALL of your Metamagic Item infusions per day. Remember, you can use higher level slots for it too. This can get you several spells. 2) You can use Divine Metamagic and nightsticks to get many, many more. All it takes is a one-level cleric dip. 3) You can use Metamagic Spell Completion and all of its uses per day. 4) You can do all this right before you rest, and it'll all last well into the next day. So you can kinda double that already high number. ...And those are just the obvious ones. That adds up to a lot of persisted spells. You only get 3 or 4 3rd level infusions + int mod. That is your cap on your infusions. Perhaps you could also substitute your 4,5 and 6the level infusions , but you just do not have that many.Why don't you detail this tactic for the guide? Without details it is hard to engage the idea.You simply cannot do these things. Again you do not have the GOLD! And you forgot your uses of MMST are capped to "An artificer can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Int modifier." You only need to use the ability *once*. 3+int modifier isn't a limiting factor to the tactic, because it requires one casting to enact the cheese. Or can you not count? You really need to actually PLAY a bufficer with a DM who is paying attention. Argumentum ad hominem isn't going to get you anywhere, especially if you're not providing any actual facts for why these various persist spell tactics don't work. Which... you're not. You're just shouting irately about gold, and saying that it's not the way the game is played... which really just looks pretty stupid. No, you can't. Firstly, that is not how THIS game is played! If you steal all the money from the bank in monopoly you win TOO! But that is not winning, and neither is "infinite wealth" scams. Remember there are wealth guidelines. You simply cannot "just get infinte gold 4 teh WIN!!!!!" It's broken *because* it breaks any wealth guidelines. Uhm... duh. By the rules, you get *free wand charges* with this. If you don't think there's something wrong with getting all the free wand charges you want (for a day) for the cost of a scroll of unfettered heroism, or all the free wand charges you want (forever) for the cost of a staff, then I honestly don't know what to tell you. You might as well say Pun-Pun is a perfectly balanced character, while you're on the subject of "infinite anything isn't broken!" Now IF your DM gives you better than normal gold, they should expect a power boost!Since you asked... You obviously didn't read my post. You can get all the money you want because you have no limits. This has nothing to do with the DM, it's just RAW. It's something called "being broken." This tactic does not require your DM to give you more than normal gold. In fact, it works even if you're getting much less than standard gold. ___ Honestly... you're just blatantly ignoring the facts and *really* reaching at this point. Seriously... this is kind of a no-brainer "Yeah, okay, that's definitely not balanced with normal play." I really shouldn't have to argue it.
Edymnion 03-16-07, 12:05 PM	Okay, things are set up, and I've started work on the new guide. In the model of WotC, here's a sneak peak at the index for the new guide!Index Introduction Races Humans Gnomes Half-Elves Elves Halflings Dwarves Half-Orcs Warforged Kalashtar Changelings Shifters Goblins Ability Scores Strength Constitution Dexterity Intelligence Wisdom Charisma Feats Point Blank Shot Precise Shot Rapid Reload Metamagic Skill Focus (Use Magic Device) Creation Feats Heroic Spirit vs. Action Boost Dragonmarks Favored in House Artisan Feats Attune Magic Weapon Extra Rings Wand Mastery Cull Wand Essence Improved Homunculus Rapid Infusion Wand Surge Etch Schema Skills Weapon and Armor Smithing Armorsmithing, Blacksmithing, Gemcutting, and Sculpting Knowledge (Arcana) Spellcraft Search, Disable Device, and Open Lock Craft Skills in General Appraise Synergies Class Abilities Infusions Craft Reserve Artificer Knowledge Artisan Bonus Disable Trap Item Creation Craft Homunculus Retain Essence Metamagic Spell Trigger/Completion Skill Mastery Equipment Weapons Armor Shields Assorted Magical Gear Crafting Walkthrough Multiclassing Base Classes Sorcerer Cleric Other PrC Cannith Wand Adept Alchemical Savant Renegade Master Other Archetype Examples Blastificer Meleeficer Buffificer Archerficer Hordeficer Houserules & Varients Scrolls PrC Magic Item Crafting Psionic Artificer Tricks of the Trade Team Play Handy Spell Storing Infusions Behind the Screen, DM Information Use Magic Device Boosters Custom Item Creation Keeping an Artificer in CheckNow, its still a rough outline, and more than likely to change as I get deeper into it (the Introduction is nearly a page long by itself!), but it should give you a good idea of how its going. Also, to give you an indication of the size that I plan on making it, each main section (the roman numeral marked list items) is going to be in it's own post, meaning the index will have links for headers (I've just formatted them to look like links in this post to show you what it will look like), allowing you to jump directly to the section you want. And since I'm making the index out of a bunch of nested lists, additions to it should be quick and easy. Its gonna be sweet. :D
OneWinged4ngel 03-16-07, 12:30 PM	Okay, things are set up, and I've started work on the new guide. In the model of WotC, here's a sneak peak at the index for the new guide!Now, its still a rough outline, and more than likely to change as I get deeper into it (the Introduction is nearly a page long by itself!), but it should give you a good idea of how its going. Also, to give you an indication of the size that I plan on making it, each main section (the roman numeral marked list items) is going to be in it's own post, meaning the index will have links for headers (I've just formatted them to look like links in this post to show you what it will look like), allowing you to jump directly to the section you want. And since I'm making the index out of a bunch of nested lists, additions to it should be quick and easy. Its gonna be sweet. :D Neat! Is the Hordeficer basically the same thing as the Golemficer?
Edymnion 03-16-07, 12:46 PM	Neat! Is the Hordeficer basically the same thing as the Golemficer?Probably. Its going to be the build that focuses on making lots and lots of constructs and homunculi to fight for you. If you've played Diablo II, think Necromancer. And see, I've already added a new section and I just got started. I won't add it to the list above, as I'm busy typing, but I'm going to add a section on the dragonmarked houses and how it would affect being an artificer in each of them. As in, how a Cannith artificer would differ from a Vadalis artificer.
Elderich 03-16-07, 01:46 PM	No, you can do this at very low level (as soon as you get level 3 infusions for the standard straight-class artificer), for *only* the cost of a scroll of unfetterred heroism, which is hardly a "ton" of gold.A 5th level artificer gets 3rd level infusions and 3600 gold, assuming he hasn't been hording his gold thru each level. A scroll of heroism is 9*5*25GP-25%=834.75 PER DAY So you can do this for 4 adventuring days... Except you cant use either the 1st level MMS or the 3rd level MMI infusion, and you are 5th level and do not have MMST Class ability. So how are you applying persistent to a scroll at 5th level? Now look I can pick your theory's apart all day, but this is not the thread for that. And who knows perhaps you are correct! If you create a new thread I will be very happy join you there. I will not reply to you in this thread again.
RogueElement 03-16-07, 02:22 PM	A 5th level artificer gets 3rd level infusions and 3600 gold, assuming he hasn't been hording his gold thru each level. A scroll of heroism is 9*5*25GP-25%=834.75 PER DAY So you can do this for 4 adventuring days... Except you cant use either the 1st level MMS or the 3rd level MMI infusion, and you are 5th level and do not have MMST Class ability. So how are you applying persistent to a scroll at 5th level? Now look I can pick your theory's apart all day, but this is not the thread for that. And who knows perhaps you are correct! If you create a new thread I will be very happy join you there. I will not reply to you in this thread again. Whoa, switch to decaf dude.
OneWinged4ngel 03-16-07, 03:47 PM	A 5th level artificer gets 3rd level infusions and 3600 gold, assuming he hasn't been hording his gold thru each level. A scroll of heroism is 9*5*25GP-25%=834.75 PER DAY So you can do this for 4 adventuring days... Except you cant use either the 1st level MMS or the 3rd level MMI infusion, and you are 5th level and do not have MMST Class ability. So how are you applying persistent to a scroll at 5th level? Actually, I did make a mistake; it would require a staff to use the Metamagic Item infusion. I'm not above admitting an error. That's what I get for posting when I'm half-asleep at 3 in the morning ;). Regardless, it's still not exactly something you could call "balanced." What level you get it at doesn't really matter. This thing isn't exactly fair at any level, and few mainstream DMs are going to be happy to let that fly, which is my point anyways. Once you can get a staff, you can make this last as long as you want, since you can get free charges out of the staff. Also... dude, calm the heck down. The internet is not an excuse to defenestrate civility. And who knows perhaps you are correct! Nah, I had a couple errors, but the tactic still exists, it's just a bit harder to do than I was thinking. Regardless, you can persist anything of up to 4th level with only a wand, and all you need are the right spells. Or do you think Persistent Wraith Strike is perfectly balanced?
Edymnion 03-16-07, 04:43 PM	Okay, I just finished up through the ability scores. I'm at over 6,800 words so far. For a point of referance, the entire 2.0 guide is only 11,000 words long. Its going to be a big'un.
Elderich 03-16-07, 06:29 PM	Nah, I had a couple errors, but the tactic still exists, it's just a bit harder to do than I was thinking. Regardless, you can persist anything of up to 4th level with only a wand, and all you need are the right spells. Or do you think Persistent Wraith Strike is perfectly balanced?Lets go make a thread dedicated to the persistent buffer and hash it out, and perhaps see? In my experience is that it is VERY tough, and you pay a decent opportunity cost. People throw around "persistent is broken", without actually havening played it by the rules. Now I said I would not reply, so I wont. Let us go make a thread. Perhaps if we do a good job Edy will link/include it!
Edymnion 03-16-07, 10:10 PM	Whew, well I just finished the last of the skills, so that puts me at about half way through. I'm at 23 typed pages, single spaced, and... *checks word count*... about 12,000 words. Did I mention this thing is going to be BIG? :D
OneWinged4ngel 03-16-07, 10:45 PM	Lets go make a thread dedicated to the persistent buffer and hash it out, and perhaps see? In my experience is that it is VERY tough, and you pay a decent opportunity cost. People throw around "persistent is broken", without actually havening played it by the rules. Now I said I would not reply, so I wont. Let us go make a thread. Perhaps if we do a good job Edy will link/include it! :rolleyes: I'm not going to waste my time. Go ask on the CharOp boards, or better yet save those people time and look at the already existing relevant discussions.
Edymnion 03-19-07, 05:00 PM	Okay, another boring day at work, another big chunk of the guide written. I've just started the dragonmarked house fluff section, and it now stands at over 24,000 words, and 44 typed pages. Thought I'd put up the updated copy of the index for anyone who's curious as to how its shaping up.Index Introduction Races Humans Gnomes Half-Elves Elves Halflings Dwarves Half-Orcs Warforged Kalashtar Changelings Shifters Goblins Ability Scores Strength Constitution Dexterity Intelligence Wisdom Charisma Feats Point Blank Shot Precise Shot Rapid Reload Weapon Proficiencies Armor Proficiencies Metamagic Skill Focus (Use Magic Device) Creation Feats Heroic Spirit vs. Action Boost Dragonmarks Favored in House Artisan Feats Attune Magic Weapon Extra Rings Wand Mastery Cull Wand Essence Improved Homunculus Rapid Infusion Wand Surge Skills Weapon and Armor Smithing Armorsmithing, Blacksmithing, Gemcutting, and Sculpting Knowledge Spellcraft Search, Disable Device, and Open Lock Craft Skills in General Appraise Decipher Script Synergies Class Abilities Infusions Craft Reserve Artificer Knowledge Artisan Bonus Disable Trap Item Creation Craft Homunculus Retain Essence Metamagic Spell Trigger/Completion Equipment Weapons Armor Shields Assorted Mundane Gear Magical Gear Multiclassing Base Classes Sorcerer/Wizard Cleric Other As Secondary PrC Cannith Wand Adept Alchemical Savant Renegade Mastermaker Other The Dragonmarked Houses House Cannith House Deneith House Ghallanda House Jorasco House Kundarak House Lyrandar House Medani House Phiarlan House Sivis House Tharashk House Thuranni House Vadalis Archetype Examples Blastificer Meleeficer Buffificer Archerficer Hordeficer Houserules & Variants Scrolls PrC Magic Item Crafting Psionic Artificer Tricks of the Trade Team Play Handy Spell Storing Infusions Behind the Screen, DM Information Use Magic Device Boosters Custom Item Creation Keeping an Artificer in Check
Dragom 03-19-07, 08:35 PM	No Detailed stuff for multiclassing with Bard VS Rogue? Or the other UMD & Trap guys? Mind you Bard comes with a spell list... I've never done a multi-class Artificer, but those two do look like the more obvious choices...
Edymnion 03-19-07, 09:08 PM	No Detailed stuff for multiclassing with Bard VS Rogue? Or the other UMD & Trap guys? Mind you Bard comes with a spell list... I've never done a multi-class Artificer, but those two do look like the more obvious choices...I do touch upon all of that, but the Sorcerer/Wizard and the Cleric get their own named sections because they offer the most to the core Artificer itself. Namely spell lists so that the Artificer can use wands without making UMD checks. The Wizard/Sorcerer is the obvious answer to getting access to the arcane spell list, with the differances being knowing all first level spells and cantrips versus more castings per day and less paperwork for the Sorcerer. Cleric gives access to the weaker Divine spell list, but comes with Heavy Armor Proficiency, and if you tweak it right, a Cleric with the Magic domain (granted by Aureon), the Artificer can get full access to both the Arcane and Divine spell lists with a one level dip, removing almost all UMD checks for wands in the process. Other classes can give benefits as secondary classes (Fighter and their Weapon Specialization and bonus feats are virtual requirements for the Meleeficer and Archerficer), but none of them have the outright power boost of those two, especially the magic domain cleric.
Elderich 03-20-07, 03:29 PM	:rolleyes: I'm not going to waste my time. Go ask on the CharOp boards, or better yet save those people time and look at the already existing relevant discussions.Actually there are no critiques of many of the artificer build threads. Several people have pointed out the many errors in these posts, but not many people care that 8 pages into a thread the idea behind one of everyones favorite artificer build just will not work as a playable character.
Subtle Knife 03-20-07, 03:39 PM	Edymnion, are you going to include any lovin' regarding any of the Dragonmark Feats (ie. Protective Mark, Dragonmark Visionary)? Simply curious! SK
Edymnion 03-20-07, 04:37 PM	Edymnion, are you going to include any lovin' regarding any of the Dragonmark Feats (ie. Protective Mark, Dragonmark Visionary)? Simply curious!Not currently, I don't recall any of them being particularly artificer friendly, but I'll take another look at them when I get home.
Subtle Knife 03-20-07, 06:07 PM	In particular, I might look at Cannith Forgecraft (an obvious option for d'Canniths), Quill of Sivis, Trap Warden, and Unlock Dragonmark. For d'Canniths, the Dragonmark Prodigy/Adept/Visionary options are kinda mediocre; I hav'na really looked over the options for artificers in other DM houses. Dragonmark Spellturning, Mark of Deflection, Mark of the Dauntless, Mark of the Recovery, and Protective Mark seem good generic feats for almost anyone likely to be in danger, but offer nothing Artificer-specific that I can see. Incidentally, forget not the Unbound Scroll PrC as a solid option for d'Sivis Artificers! SK
Edymnion 03-21-07, 12:48 PM	Incidentally, forget not the Unbound Scroll PrC as a solid option for d'Sivis Artificers!I had indeed forgotten him! Oversight corrected. :)
Highschool_Magic 03-21-07, 04:29 PM	Oh I can just see how you handle the Shadowmarked Houses, JAMES BOND! In their enclave artificers are crafting the newest in spy tech.! _High_School_Magic_
Edymnion 03-21-07, 06:08 PM	Okay, I'm not done yet, but since the bulk of it is more or less finished, I've gone ahead and made the thread for it. You can get an early look at it over here: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=813665 You'll notice though that the thread is on the FAQ board, and locked. I plan on keeping it this way, making it a pure guide without all of the debate and discussions making it 20 pages long, so if you see something that needs adding, feel free to use this thread or PM me.
RogueElement 03-21-07, 06:53 PM	Outstanding work Edy! I quick-ripped all of the sections to PDF (no bookmarks) and the thing is 47 pages long!!! Thanks for putting in so much time on this project. I'd attach the PDF, but I don't seem to have that class ability on this forum.
Edymnion 03-21-07, 07:10 PM	Outstanding work Edy! I quick-ripped all of the sections to PDF (no bookmarks) and the thing is 47 pages long!!! Thanks for putting in so much time on this project. I'd attach the PDF, but I don't seem to have that class ability on this forum.Yeah, its quite long. Probably going to be another 5 pages or so by the time its done. And if you check the note in the thread, I'll be making a fully bookmarked PDF with a nice background, fonts, maybe some purdy pictures once its all done.
RogueElement 03-21-07, 11:50 PM	I finished reading it, loved it. I can't think of too much to add that you haven't already said or are going to put in the heading stubs. The only question I have for my own character that isn't mentioned in the guide is whether or not Craft (Alchemy) is really useful and if so, what would be the best items to make at low levels? The only error I found was that the Alchemical Savant PrC would be good for gnomes, but only members of House Cannith (i.e. humans) can become Alchemical Savants (unless gnomes have some way of getting Favored In House I don't know about). I only found a few minor typos. This might sound like a reference to Monty Python, but scan for the word "its" and replace most of them with "it's". The guide flows really well and it's easy to find answers to my questions. The section on crafting magic items should be an article on the Wizards website, no kidding. It beats the crap out of the multipart Sage article. (Don't get me started on what Skip said about item caster level). I love the advice you added on races, tons of it wow. The skills section was very good, I especially like the part about Decipher Script being useful for Artificers. I bet the guy that suggested that was like the coolest guy on the forums. :D
Edymnion 03-22-07, 08:01 AM	The only question I have for my own character that isn't mentioned in the guide is whether or not Craft (Alchemy) is really useful and if so, what would be the best items to make at low levels?Oh, duh. Can't believe I overlooked Alchemy when I even mentioned it in the Alchemical Savant entry. Yeah, I'll add that into the skills section. The only error I found was that the Alchemical Savant PrC would be good for gnomes, but only members of House Cannith (i.e. humans) can become Alchemical Savants (unless gnomes have some way of getting Favored In House I don't know about).Actually, I don't believe Favored in House is restricted, mechanically, to marked humans. It may be difficult to pick up from a flavor standpoint, but possible. I'll still edit the entry with a note on the subject though. I only found a few minor typos. This might sound like a reference to Monty Python, but scan for the word "its" and replace most of them with "it's".Bah, I never can remember the rules for when you use the apostrophe with that word. The skills section was very good, I especially like the part about Decipher Script being useful for Artificers. I bet the guy that suggested that was like the coolest guy on the forums. :DNah, I think that section came from some schmuck on the boards. ;)
RogueElement 03-22-07, 10:08 AM	Actually, I don't believe Favored in House is restricted, mechanically, to marked humans. It may be difficult to pick up from a flavor standpoint, but possible. I'll still edit the entry with a note on the subject though. I know you don't have to be marked, but I think you have to be a member of the House, or had to have done something herculean to help the house. Since you had mentioned that no one but a gnome should get Bind Elemental, you might mention that no one but a Cannith human should get Favored in House (Cannith). I loved your section on Tricks of the Trade. I re-read it this morning and I love the part about the Spell Storing Item infusion. I never thought of using it so extensively. I've been trying to find a way to use a low level Artificer's Craft Reserve and this would be fantastic. You lost me on the section on making items for your party for cost though. If you sacrifice all your Craft Reserve making items for your friends at cost, aren't you going to be behind them in level because you have to build stuff for yourself with your own hardwon XP? Your friends get a huge advantage because they won't have to spend xp on their stuff, but the Artificer would on his stuff. The Artificer is bleeding hp like the fighter, throwing infusions as much as a wizard, and disarming traps as much as the rogue, so he's already pulling his own weight. The Artificer is already going to be sacrificing his Craft Reserve XP on his Spell Storing Item infusion and on expendable scrolls and wands that help his friends (plus a lot of gold too). Why should the Artificer also sacrifice even more XP for his friends' toys too? Maybe you could mention that this only works if the DM uses the variant rule of sharing xp cost of making items. If the rest of the party pays the xp cost of the item, I would have no problem making stuff for them for cost (especially if my homi did all the work ;) ). I love the section on needing dragonshards to create magic items. Do you want your characters to buy griffins instead of Brooms of Flying? DM: "Oh you don't have enough dragonshards to make the Brooms, sorry...but House Vadalis has some really swell griffins for the same price..." Perfect non-invasive soft-direction DMing!
Edymnion 03-22-07, 12:07 PM	You lost me on the section on making items for your party for cost though. If you sacrifice all your Craft Reserve making items for your friends at cost, aren't you going to be behind them in level because you have to build stuff for yourself with your own hardwon XP? Your friends get a huge advantage because they won't have to spend xp on their stuff, but the Artificer would on his stuff.No, I said as long as you have craft reserve to spare, you should not charge extra for your items. "To spare" is the key phrase there, as it includes CR you have reserved for your own personal use. Also, the Houserules & Varients section is up, the Blastificer is up, and I have most of the Hordeficer written, which I will put up as soon as I get home and finish it off. Up to about 35k words now, and at the rate its going, I can easily see it hitting 40 or 45k before its done. --+Edit+-- And Hordeficer is up.
OneWinged4ngel 03-22-07, 06:56 PM	Hey, for the Blastificer, don't forget to note the importance of Metamagic Item, since that'll add onto what you've got from spell trigger without costing gold. I just read up what you had quickly, so I might have missed it. (Though, a quick Control+F search found it conspicuously missing from the whole guide thus far.) Also, IIRC, Quicken Spell was noted as the most efficient spell to put on Metamagic Spell Trigger, since it represents actual doubling if you have an empowered scorching ray wand, etc, while many other metamagic feats *do not* actually double your output. That said, it was conspicuously missing from the "notable feats." Metamagic Item is in the ECS, pg113. It'll let you apply a metamagic feat you know to a spell contained within a spell trigger item for 1 round per level, without the cost of metamagic spell trigger. It seemed to be conspicuously missing from the Blastificer build, since it's so essential to them actually being able to afford a place to sleep at night at the end of the day. Actually, it's pretty much an essential tool of most any artificer, to the point that a lot of people will even use higher level infusion slots to get more metamagic item infusions. Also, Reach Spell has indeed been reprinted in 3.5. For future reference, if in doubt try searching http://crystalkeep.com/. And that site says... Complete Divine Pg84 (Too lazy to actually get my real books out any more :P) Hope that helps. Another note: One great item from Magic Item Compendium (not sure if it's from something before this...) that I know many artificers are going to want is one that more or less pays for itself: The Artificer's Monocle (pg 72 MIC). Essentially, it expands the use of your Artificer Knowledge ability to actually gain the effect of Identify, for a mere 1500gp. This saves you the 100gp component you usually have to spend every time. Pays for itself after 15 uses, and saved you those hour-long casting times to boot!
Edymnion 03-22-07, 08:37 PM	Well, I've been taking some time off from writing tonight to work on the layout and graphics for the PDF. I've got the pages done, as well as the cover. Thought I'd put up a sneak peak at said cover. :) http://img466.imageshack.us/img466/1792/coverqh8.png
yargon 03-22-07, 09:39 PM	Well, I've been taking some time off from writing tonight to work on the layout and graphics for the PDF. I've got the pages done, as well as the cover. Thought I'd put up a sneak peak at said cover. :) http://img466.imageshack.us/img466/1792/coverqh8.png Awesome - simply awesome. Sign me up for a copy.
shadowpavement 03-23-07, 08:18 AM	I have to say Edy, If it wasnt for your work on this thing I'd be totally in the darkest depths of Kyber trying to figure out all the intricacies of the Artificer. Now if one of my players wants to have one as a character I will actually know what the heck is going on. Thanks for all your work. I know I really apreciate it. :) *sigh* Now if only I could find a game where I could play an artificer.
spikegif 03-23-07, 10:25 AM	Edymnion, Very good work. Reading through it yeaterday, I noticed that your example of the fireball scroll had level 6 as the soonest you can create it. Wizards get access to this spell at level 5 and it is also an example in the Eberron Setting.
Edymnion 03-23-07, 06:36 PM	Edymnion, Very good work. Reading through it yeaterday, I noticed that your example of the fireball scroll had level 6 as the soonest you can create it. Wizards get access to this spell at level 5 and it is also an example in the Eberron Setting.Did I? I'll go fix it then. In the mean time, the Meleeficer and the Archerficer are up.
aelryinth 03-23-07, 06:57 PM	Some comments on your article: More subdivisions within topics. That's a lot of text. Make the paragraphs somewhat smaller, break out controversial topics with their own headers and boldness. The more you break it up, the easier it is to read. There's whole sections you just want to glaze over because they are so wrong. I'd also like to point out that you are directly imparting a personal opinion into the Ability Score section of the Artificer. You do this nowhere else in the article. Given that Charisma can be incredibly useful in helping hit those Arch-UMD checks (metamagicking scrolls, for instance, after level 12), you shouldn't downplay Charisma so much. Also, Dex vs Con is a very personal choice of playstyle. An offensive caster of an artificer prob wants the Dex...a buffer and backup melee sort probably wants Con. So, I'd remove the opinion peice and present choices, not opinions in this section. Special Note: Please give some attention to the spells Heroic Surge, which gives you an extra AP a round for free. I believe this is meant to apply to UA AP's and not those of the Eberron setting, and can get quite broken as a result. For one-dipping, the Sorceror probably fits better then the Wizard. He's likely to have a high enough charisma to gain the bonus spells, he already has the Scribe Scroll...and he'll be able to cast True Strike far more often then a level 1 wizard can. Error: Cannith Wand Adept does not REQUIRE the Mark of Making. It takes favored in House (Cannith) OR the Mark. If you don't have the Mark, you get it at the end of the class, which also forces you to be Human. Please mention the infusion that allows you to spend infusions instead of charges from items. This saves the Artificer much dinero at higher levels. You should have directly typed out examples of the Artisan feats. Lift it from what I posted on the link above, if you must. If you could post links to direct topics of interest on one subthread, people might enjoy it. For instance: The Optimized Artificer, and another thread where they posted optimized spells to use by level. The Artificer thread also gets you a lot of optimized builds, although a lot of them are very late game and rely a ton on shapeshifting cheese. ===Aelryinth
RogueElement 03-23-07, 07:03 PM	For a bit of humor, you could always craft a magical Bastard Sword of Tensor’s Transformation that activates on the command phrase “By the power of Greyskull!” LOL, awesome stuff.
Edymnion 03-23-07, 07:06 PM	I'd also like to point out that you are directly imparting a personal opinion into the Ability Score section of the Artificer. You do this nowhere else in the article. Given that Charisma can be incredibly useful in helping hit those Arch-UMD checks (metamagicking scrolls, for instance, after level 12), you shouldn't downplay Charisma so much.Its recommendations, I can't make a recommendation without imparting what I think is a good idea. Considering that there is no "right" way to build an Artificer, the entire guide boils down to nothing more than my glorified opinion.Special Note: Please give some attention to the spells Heroic Surge, which gives you an extra AP a round for free. I believe this is meant to apply to UA AP's and not those of the Eberron setting, and can get quite broken as a result.So why should I bring special attention to it, when most people will not have even heard about it in the first place? Whether or not UA action point uses are compatible with Eberron AP uses is an issue that deserves it's own thread. For one-dipping, the Sorceror probably fits better then the Wizard. He's likely to have a high enough charisma to gain the bonus spells, he already has the Scribe Scroll...and he'll be able to cast True Strike far more often then a level 1 wizard can.Heh, your opinion is showing. ;) That said, my stance is that a generic Artificer's Intelligence should be higher than his Charisma, hence they would gain more bonus spells by taking wizard, but really, they're so close that there is no real reason to pick one over the other. Error: Cannith Wand Adept does not REQUIRE the Mark of Making. It takes favored in House (Cannith) OR the Mark. If you don't have the Mark, you get it at the end of the class, which also forces you to be Human.Was it? Okay, I'll double check and change that section if so. Please mention the infusion that allows you to spend infusions instead of charges from items. This saves the Artificer much dinero at higher levels.And which one would that be again? If you could post links to direct topics of interest on one subthread, people might enjoy it. For instance: The Optimized Artificer, and another thread where they posted optimized spells to use by level. The Artificer thread also gets you a lot of optimized builds, although a lot of them are very late game and rely a ton on shapeshifting cheese.I don't plan on linking to any external threads, primarily because links die, get remade, etc. Considering that I don't even pay attention to those kinds of threads, I wouldn't even know when one of them got pruned or locked. Which means I wouldn't know to go fix it until somebody pointed it out to me, and thats assuming I could find a suitable replacement thread. No thanks, I won't be linking to other threads. Oh, and yeah, I think Item Creation could use some sub-topics, but thats about the only one I would think needs breaking up. The rest are short enough to be easily readable chunks, IMO. Well, Homunculi probably needs sub-headings too. I'll do that after I get back from the movies.
RogueElement 03-23-07, 07:58 PM	The Apprentice (uh, the feat, not the show) I know there's a ton of feats that are useful for Artificers and you already have a ton of them detailed already, but you might also want to mention the Apprentice (Craftsman) feat from DMG II. It gives you a +2 on all Craft checks, two bonus skill points per level to spend on Appraise and Knowledge (Architecture & Engineering), favors from your mentor, and best of all you get an extra 10% off the cost of crafting items (both mundane and magical). The Apprentice feat's only cost is that until you're 5th level, you'll have to spend 100gp every time you level up and an average of 8hrs/week doing chores. Unless you plan on being away from a mentor for more than a month at a stretch before you're 5th level, it's almost a required feat for Artificers.
RogueElement 03-23-07, 08:21 PM	You might like this for your archetype section: The Necroficer. I don't know if anyone else has thought of this, but I can't find it documented anywhere. I recently noticed that an artificer can create undead at 3rd level! Animate Dead is a 3rd level spell that Clerics get at 5th level, so the artificer can make a scroll at 3rd level. So at 3rd level you can have a squad of skeleton raptors, a couple of 6 headed hydras, a few flying zombie hippogriffs, or even a couple of flying skeleton nightmare mounts for only 337 gp each! Undead are far cheaper than constructs, even homis (they're just not as welcome in town). A 3rd level artificer can create a single scroll of Animate Dead that can create a 6 headed 6 HD hydra for a cost of 187.5gp + (25gp*6HD) = 337.5 gp and 15xp. Since you can control up to 4 times your level in HD, you can make two of the maximum HD you can make. So a 3rd level artificer can have two 6HD skeletons or zombies for 675 gp and 30xp total. A Necroficer should make nice with organizations like Margrave University or House Vadalis or the Blood of Vol to get access to the best corpses and skeleton collections. Since the beasties you create can be double your HD, it's doubtful that you'll run into a cleric that can easily turn them, let alone one that can destroy or command them. If you take some traditional necromancer feats from Libris Mortis like Corpsecrafter and Bolster Resistance or Deadly Chill, you'll be more necromancer than necromancer in no time flat. A 3rd level Necroficer with a pair of hydras with six 1d10+5 damage attacks each and with an extra 1d6 cold damage each bite...yeah, you better run!
Dragom 03-23-07, 09:03 PM	6HD cap for each creature and 12 HD control cap without Vigorous use of Control undead and no rebuking ability to in event of emergency. It would take everything the artificer had to fit the bill, but he could I guess.
Pinky's brain 03-25-07, 01:21 PM	Edymnion, you still seem to have some misconceptions about caster level and other item creation prerequisites and minimum caster levels. Unless there is a caster level prerequisite a first level caster can through cooperative item creation and using scrolls/wands to meet prerequisites make any item ... and thus set it's caster level to 1. This is as RAW as it can be. Now you can argue that the example in the ECS is defacto saying an artificer needs to be of the same caster level as the caster level of the spell prerequisites he is emulating ... but that's a bit of a controversial argument because the example deals with an item which has an actual caster level prerequisite (a scroll). I would argue that they are talking about meeting the caster level prerequisites and not emulation in general. As I said before, I hope you present both sides of the story on this in the guide (even if you don't statements in direct contradiction to the RAW about the minimum CL for magic items should still be avoided).
Pinky's brain 03-25-07, 04:30 PM	Which class can cast true seeing at CL3 anyway? Goggles of Minute Seeing The lenses of this item are made of special crystal. When placed over the eyes of the wearer, the lenses enable her to see much better than normal at distances of 1 foot or less, granting her a +5 competence bonus on Search checks to find secret doors, traps, and similar concealed objects. Both lenses must be worn for the magic to be effective. Faint divination; CL 3rd; Craft Wondrous Item, true seeing; Price 1,250 gp.
Edymnion 03-25-07, 05:16 PM	Edymnion, you still seem to have some misconceptions about caster level and other item creation prerequisites and minimum caster levels.No, I'm pretty much going straight out of the books. I'm not going to bother doing a copy/paste of the reply I gave you in the other thread, but you can read it there at your leisure. IMO, you are the one that doesn't understand how item creation works. At least, I don't think you'll find many people that will say a lvl 3 Artificer can make a Chaos Diamond (which is a major item with a market price of 160,000 gp) just because he has some scrolls of the prereq spells and somebody giving him all the gold he needs to make it with. Unless you're also saying that the books themselves are wrong? I mean, if there is no minimum caster level for an item, then that entire artificer ability is *WRONG*, and shouldn't be in the book at all, right?
AbsentMindedProfessor 03-25-07, 05:40 PM	Forgive me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't Twin Spell also be a very efficient metamagic to put on a wand using Metamagic Item Infusion? Maybe even more so than Quicken since it would essentially save a charge every round? Granted, you'd have to pick the same target, but it would save quite of a bit of $$ for the price of flexibility.
RogueElement 03-25-07, 05:43 PM	Every group I've ever been in has used the following description regarding magic item creation: The CL of a magic item is only consulted when trying to dispel the item in order to temporarily deactivate it. The CL has nothing to do with the creator of the item or the creation of the item. By default (i.e. for most magic items) the CL will be the minimum needed to cast the highest level spell needed in the item's creation, but it does not have to be. For example: an ounce of Sovereign Glue can be created by a 3rd level Cleric who has Craft Wondrous Item and can cast Make Whole once during the creation process. Since Make Whole is a 2nd level Cleric spell, the 3rd level Cleric can cast this spell himself and easily make this item. Sovereign Glue has a CL of 20 so anyone who wants to cast Dispel Magic to unstick a glued item would need to overcome a CL of 20 to temporarily deactivate the Sovereign Glue. Note that Sovereign Glue is an exception, most magic items will have a CL equal to the level of caster needed to cast the highest level spell required for its manufacture. If an Artificer wants to create a custom magic item in the form of a magical zippo lighter that requires a Prestidigation spell to create, the CL of the item would only be 1st level. The DM should not allow the player to arbitrarily say that the item has a CL of 20. These rules are in the DMG page 282-283, anything else is a house rule, and Skip Williams is wrong and he should have his title as Sage stripped from him in a humiliating ceremony. (I'm just kidding of course, Skip is a good guy).
Edymnion 03-25-07, 05:54 PM	These rules are in the DMG page 282-283, anything else is a house rule, and Skip Williams is wrong and he should have his title as Sage stripped from him in a humiliating ceremony. (I'm just kidding of course, Skip is a good guy).Skip hasn't been the Sage for what, a year or so? Andy Collins is doing it now.
RogueElement 03-25-07, 06:02 PM	Skip hasn't been the Sage for what, a year or so? Andy Collins is doing it now. Well then Andy should have his title stripped from him. Someone has to pay for the magic item caster level fiasco. Whoever is currently in office should be impeached! Impeached I say!
Edymnion 03-25-07, 06:08 PM	Well then Andy should have his title stripped from him. Someone has to pay for the magic item caster level fiasco. Whoever is currently in office should be impeached! Impeached I say!Hey, preaching to the choir here man. The Sage position needs to be retired and replaced with a Sage Council consisting of no less than 3 people that have to come to a majority decision before it can be put up as an official answer. No single person should be allowed to officially rewrite the rules whenever he feels like it without having anybody so much as even READ* what he writes before they slap it up for the general public. * While I have no proof that there aren't proof readers, the shear number of simple, obvious mistakes that I have seen come from the various Sage writers over the years, to me, either means that there isn't a proofreader/fact checker, or that they are incompetant.
aelryinth 03-25-07, 06:48 PM	Forgive me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't Twin Spell also be a very efficient metamagic to put on a wand using Metamagic Item Infusion? Maybe even more so than Quicken since it would essentially save a charge every round? Granted, you'd have to pick the same target, but it would save quite of a bit of $$ for the price of flexibility. That's correct. Twin spell and Quicken spell are the two big punches for Blastificers, especially. ==Aelryinth
Pinky's brain 03-25-07, 08:14 PM	These rules are in the DMG page 282-283, anything else is a house rule, and Skip Williams is wrong and he should have his title as Sage stripped from him in a humiliating ceremony. (I'm just kidding of course, Skip is a good guy). You should read the DMG errata some time ;) Endymnion, whether the rule have unfortunate consequences is besides the point. The rules are exquisitely clear, the minimum caster level for an item is the minimum level at which the prerequisites can be met ... that is all. Prerequisites can be met through cooperative item creation and scrolls/wands/staffs, making the actual minimum caster level 1 for all items without an actual caster level prerequisite (scrolls/wands/golems/cloak of resistance/etc). That is a direct result of the DMG errata, regardless of other consequences. I houserule that all items which can reproduce spells have a caster level prerequisite equal to the caster level of the spell they reproduce to fix the problem you mention (also their caster level is fixed to the caster level from their book entry). You houserule that every item has a caster level prerequisite based on it's spell prerequisites. That is completely besides the point though, what's important that either way it's a houserule. The guide should make the rules clear, and leave the selection of houserules up to the DMs.
ArcTan 03-25-07, 08:54 PM	Unless you're also saying that the books themselves are wrong? I mean, if there is no minimum caster level for an item, then that entire artificer ability is *WRONG*, and shouldn't be in the book at all, right? The Artificer ability is to make the item without having the spell, *not* to make the item without the "minimum caster level", which doesn't exist. Yes, you can *also* craft an item without having the spell by getting the spell from a scroll, but this requires very expensive scrolls, and making a caster level check with a chance of mishap if you fail. The DMG errata is pretty clear on this. I recommend you download and read it. It's also pretty clear when you look at the fact that it would be ridiculous for sovereign glue to be only craftable by 20th-level spellcasters.
BobbyMac 03-25-07, 11:38 PM	I haven't closely followed yall's reasonings on the caster level prerequisite debate but I can tell you about my eureka moment when I was researching this very subject recently and if it helps make sense for yall then good...:) That moment was when it finally dawned on me that different item types called for different methods of setting caster levels during creation. (After this realization I then found this series of articles by Skip Williams on the WOTC website and have yoinked the pertinent parts. He splains it much better than I could Lucy...) Scrolls: A character creating a scroll can set the caster level for the scroll at any level from the minimum level that character would have to be to cast the spell up to that character's caster level when casting that spell. Potions: A character creating a potion or oil can set the caster level for the potion or oil at any level from the minimum level that character would have to be to cast the spell up to that character's caster level when casting that spell, just as noted for scrolls. Wands: A character creating a wand can set the caster level for the wand at any level from the minimum level that character would have to be to cast the spell up to that character's caster level when casting that spell. Staffs: Setting the caster level for a staff works much like setting the caster level for a wand, but there are a few catches. A staff has one caster level for all the spells it can produce, and that caster must be at least 8th. As with a wand, however, the caster level must be at least as high as the caster level the creator would have to have to cast any of the spells stored in the staff, and no higher than the creator's caster level. Magic Weapons, Armor, Shields: A weapon, suit of armor, or a shield that has only an enhancement bonus has a caster level equal to three times the enhancement bonus. A special ability for a weapon, suit of armor, or a shield has a caster level given in its description. A weapon, suit of armor, or a shield with a special ability must have an enhancement bonus of at least +1 to have a special ability, and the item uses the highest caster level. Rings: A ring's caster level is fixed -- the creator cannot adjust it as she can for a scroll, potion, wand or staff. Rods: A rod's caster level is fixed -- the creator cannot adjust it as she can for a scroll, potion, wand or staff. Wondrous Item: A wondrous item's caster level is fixed -- the creator cannot adjust it as she can for a scroll, potion, wand, or staff. (according to this sovereign glue IS only craftable by 20th-level spellcasters) Hope this helps...
RogueElement 03-26-07, 02:47 AM	(After this realization I then found this series of articles by Skip Williams on the WOTC website and have yoinked the pertinent parts. He splains it much better than I could Lucy...) .... (according to this sovereign glue IS only craftable by 20th-level spellcasters) Hope this helps... You are completely missing the fact that Skip's description does not follow the rules in the DMG or the explicit clarification in the DMG errata. Damn you Skip! You have corrupted another soul with your infernal lies!
BobbyMac 03-26-07, 09:14 AM	I assume you refer to this... From DMG v3.5 Errata Caster Level Dungeon Master’s Guide, page 215 Problem: The last two sentences in the section on Caster level are ambiguous and potentially misleading. Solution: Replace with this text: For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the creator. The minimum caster level is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given. and for context here is the remainder of relevant passage from the DMG pg 215... For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell and not higher than her own caster level. For example, at 5th level, Mialee could scribe a scroll of invisibility at caster level 3rd (making it last 3 minutes), caster level 4th (4 minutes), or caster level 5th (5 minutes). For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the creator. The minimum caster level is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given. This makes sense in the fact that it makes crafters of wondrous items an the like more flexible in choosing how they want their items to function. I guess the question then is: Can you create an item with a caster level higher than your own? Which I think is the heart of the matter right?
Edymnion 03-26-07, 12:14 PM	I guess the question then is: Can you create an item with a caster level higher than your own? Which I think is the heart of the matter right?Exact opposite, actually. People thinking they can make caster lvl = 1 by having prereqs met by items, and thus drastically reducing the price.
Pinky's brain 03-26-07, 12:57 PM	The caster level of non spell reproducing items has bugger all to do with the price. The price is fixed, regardless of the caster level. The custom magic item pricing guidelines are completely besides the point. They are for creating custom magic items, and that particular part of the guideline only deals with items which reproduce spell effects too.
shadowpavement 03-26-07, 01:08 PM	What about basic magic weapons and armor? They don't reproduce spells but I thought they required a caster level at least 3 times higher than the bonus you want to enchant the weapon or armor with.
Pinky's brain 03-26-07, 02:15 PM	Armors and weapons have a caster level prerequisite depending on their enhancement bonus. Cloaks of resistance too ... this is not true in general though, most wondrous items don't have a caster level prerequisite for instance.
ArcTan 03-26-07, 04:15 PM	This makes sense in the fact that it makes crafters of wondrous items an the like more flexible in choosing how they want their items to function. I guess the question then is: Can you create an item with a caster level higher than your own? Which I think is the heart of the matter right? Obviously you can, or sovereign glue and universal solvent shouldn't exist at all in Eberron and should hardly exist in other campaign settings, unless you think Elminster spends half his life making these things and selling them to shops.
RogueElement 03-26-07, 04:24 PM	I guess the question then is: Can you create an item with a caster level higher than your own? Which I think is the heart of the matter right? EDIT: Please go ahead and read the rest of the thread that you said you skipped over. I didn't get anywhere near enough sleep to rehash all the arguments again.
Edymnion 03-26-07, 04:32 PM	The caster level of non spell reproducing items has bugger all to do with the price. The price is fixed, regardless of the caster level. The custom magic item pricing guidelines are completely besides the point. They are for creating custom magic items, and that particular part of the guideline only deals with items which reproduce spell effects too.Which means there is no issue at all with those items, and it isn't worth worrying about. Anyway, the Buffificer is up, as well as a good bit of the dragonmarked house fluff. We're at 40k words now, and very close to being finished! Just 3 more dragonmarked houses to go, and its done. Which hopefully means it'll be done by this time tomorrow, and I can start working on converting it to PDF.
Pinky's brain 03-26-07, 07:43 PM	It makes cheap items with high spell prerequisites (bags of holding, eyes of the eagle etc) available earlier in the game for crafting.
Edymnion 03-27-07, 03:12 PM	And boom, the guide is officially complete. Final word count: 41,243, with the word file I typed it in coming in at 74 pages long. Now, I'm off to make the PDF version, which should go much more quickly than making the thread version, since its just a matter of copy/paste/format. In the mean time, I've already asked the wizos to unsticky the current 2.0 guide and sticky a redirect to the 3.0 guide in it's place.
Chimaera2000 03-28-07, 02:27 PM	Though I'm far from the first to say so, thanks for all of your hard work, Edymnion. I'm almost positive that this a labor of love, but it doesn't mean that we can't thank for crafting it. :) From my first read-through of this update, I noticed a couple of things were missing: * Knowledge (Arcana) provides a synergy bonus to Spellcraft checks. * Wand Mastery should be added to this list of the recommended feats for a blastificer. Wand Mastery is mentioned in its description as being very good for blastificers, but I think that it'd be more appropriate to have it in the actual section. * Adding in parentheses the sources of non-core, non-Eberron Campaign Setting feats would be appropriate; after all, the guide is intended for new players. For example, in the "Metamagic" part of the feats section, you could note that Energy Substitution comes from Complete Arcane. * You might want to mention Persistent Spell in there, particularly in the Buffificer section. Although Metamagic Item + Persistent Spell is extremely potent (I'm currently debating whether to use it in my current game), it's recommended enough times on the CharOp boards that it might deserve a place here (with suitable warnings, of course).
Jackmojo 03-28-07, 05:01 PM	I noticed you mention Rapid Reload in the feat section, you might want to append the notes on the feat to mention the Quick loading Weapon Enchantment: +1 cost, allows reloading as a free action, 100 bolt clip, free selection of different bolt types) as for a crossbow user it would be pretty dang useful. Jack P.S. do you want suggestions here still?
Edymnion 03-29-07, 12:15 PM	P.S. do you want suggestions here still?Sure, good as any place. Oh, and I've finished the PDF of the guide. Full color, each major section is bookmarked, and the index is fully linked to let you jump to anywhere in the document you want to go. Its spiffy! :D Just gotta get in touch with someone who had said they would host it for me, see if they still wanna do it or not. Hopefully, it'll be up for download by tomorrow, or a day or two after that, depending on how long it takes me to get in touch with him.
Edymnion 03-30-07, 12:13 PM	And the PDF is up, courtesy of Save-vs-DM: http://www.savevsdm.com/pdf/UnofficialArtificerGuidebook3.zip Link has also been placed in the first post of the guide thread as well.
shadowpavement 03-30-07, 01:59 PM	Wooot!!!! :d
RogueElement 03-30-07, 05:07 PM	And the PDF is up, courtesy of Save-vs-DM: http://www.savevsdm.com/pdf/UnofficialArtificerGuidebook3.pdf Link has also been placed in the first post of the guide thread as well. WOW! Beautiful work dude. So when are you getting a job at WotC?
Dragom 03-31-07, 03:22 AM	You know how members of the Aurum have 4 rings on a hand to signify their belonging to that group? If each ring was imbued with a different combat orientated spell storing item infusion, possibly the 2nd level extended version, it would be a handy way for an artificer to pretend like he was a wizard for a short period of time.
shadowpavement 04-01-07, 09:22 AM	Hey Edy. I just remembered that there is the "Construct Grafter" creation feat from Faith's of Eberron. I was wondering if you were going to put anything into the guide about it or if you had decided to leave it out for some reason.
Edymnion 04-01-07, 12:18 PM	Eh, I don't typically find the graft feats to be worth taking for any character due to how rarely you will ever get the chance to use them. When there are so many other great feats to take, why would anyone spend one on something they might use once? They're more of NPC type feats, IMO.
shadowpavement 04-01-07, 07:43 PM	Sounds good to me. I was just curious since I wasn't sure how detailed you wanted to get.
Werebat 04-03-07, 09:28 PM	Edymnion, Fantastic job! Thanks so much! One minor quibble, though. While I'm happy to see that you've included Goblins in the racial list, I think you got it wrong about their having a -2 to Con. It's -2 to Str IIRC, not such a big deal to Small artificers. Also, their +2 Dex is valuable for the same reason it is good for Elves and Halflings (but you knew that). Thanks again! Awesome job! - Ron ^*^