Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TheGreatPook 04-06-07, 05:36 PM	Hey guys, I was considering playing an Artificer in an upcoming game, but we will most likely be starting above level 1, probably around level 10 or so. I was wondering how I should go about equiping my artificer with things he would have created between level 1 and level 10 but I'm not completely sure how to go about doing so, because it seems like there are a lot of in game factors that help with an artificer's crafting (such as the retain essence ability). I am interested to hear how others have handled this situation. Thanks for your help.
Edymnion 04-06-07, 09:46 PM	Hey guys, I was considering playing an Artificer in an upcoming game, but we will most likely be starting above level 1, probably around level 10 or so. I was wondering how I should go about equiping my artificer with things he would have created between level 1 and level 10 but I'm not completely sure how to go about doing so, because it seems like there are a lot of in game factors that help with an artificer's crafting (such as the retain essence ability). I am interested to hear how others have handled this situation. Thanks for your help.Its easy, really. You have character wealth, it is how much stuff you should have at your given level. You buy your stuff up like everybody else, and just say you made it.
Spotas 04-07-07, 12:08 AM	The best thing I can suggest is set up something with your DM. I started an artificer at lvl 5, my DM game me extra craft reserve equal to 5% of the exp needed to gain each lvl. He also gave me enough gold to make what ever I needed to with the craft reserve. He also made it so that craft reserve carried over from lvl to lvl, mainly because some times you just can't get to a place to make items before you lvl up. A couple of suggestions for items, make a wish list on scrolls and see how much exp and gold it will cost, an infinite scroll case or 2 is a must as well, by lvl 10 you should be able to make them yourself. Also get to know the magic item creation table really well as you will be referencing it all the time and pick up the magic item compendium. At lvl 10 you will be able to make +4 items, the compendium gives rules on armor and weapon augmentation crystals that are fairly easy to make and add to the effectiveness of armor and weapons. The circlet of persuasion is a must have, not to mention that you will be able to make an animated shield which will free up your hands for a wand or two wands, a crossbow, or a two handed weapon. A wish list is now a bad idea for magic items as well. Some items I have found very useful are: Handy Haversack Elixirs of Hiding (for those party members who aren't sneaky) Elixirs of Sneaking (same reason) Portable Hole Wands Javelins of Lightning Cannith Goggles Gold ring (for casting Enhance skill or Spell Storing Item on) Quiver of Ehlona Other than that it goes to personal preference, the artificer guide on the forums can be very helpful too. Just try not to attract too much attention to yourself. Good luck:ayyyy!:
goblin_pride 04-07-07, 10:32 AM	Some items I have found very useful are: Handy Haversack Elixirs of Hiding (for those party members who aren't sneaky) Elixirs of Sneaking (same reason) Portable Hole Wands Javelins of Lightning Cannith Goggles Gold ring (for casting Enhance skill or Spell Storing Item on) Quiver of Ehlona Don't forget a pair of sturdy workgloves that cast Magecraft. I recommend making it a charged item myself, otherwise you'd need a separate pair for each craft skill.
Cifer 04-08-07, 12:35 PM	because it seems like there are a lot of in game factors that help with an artificer's crafting (such as the retain essence ability). I'd advise you to just use your craft reserve - Retain Essence is balanced nicely by the dozens of scrolls, wands and staffs one usually crafts along with more permanent items.
KidChainsaw 04-08-07, 05:33 PM	The easiest way is to use the wealth by level table in the DMG, but it's not the most realistic for a character who can create his/her own toys. As a DM I've allowed the PC's 5 to 10% more XP than their level would require if there are characters specifically devoted to crafting items. If you have rules lawyer types that like to min/max custom built items I wouldn't do this (believe me, it WILL blow up in your face) but allow PC's to "cannibalize" a certain amount of XP and start one level lower than everyone else for those items.
ChimericalWolf 04-09-07, 08:57 AM	For my players making artificers at higher than first, I give them 1/3 of their reserve per level, and have them build their character level by level, rolling to craft the items that they have the feats for. It makes things a lot more complicated, and falls apart when they start getting high enough that they have more then just skill ranks, feats, and natural CHA to apply to UMD, but we haven't run into that so far.
DargonSwift 04-11-07, 11:32 PM	I'm starting a new 12th level campaign, and one of the incoming PCs is an artificer. What a nightmare. All of his items are custom, and not standard items out of the book. His starting gp is supposed to be 88k, but his XP cost drops him down to 11th level (66k). I'm not sure if I should give him the 88k or the 66k. Worse, I have to look over and calculate each item - which triples my workload. His grand total so far is over 300k worth of crafted items. I want him to enjoy the class and you can't if there are too many limitation on his crafting ability, but something here is broken. I may just allow him to craft 88k worth of items, but limited to the market value. He'll just have a lot of gold left over. I'd also considered allowing him to buy the XP at 25gp:1 XP. Anyone know of any official rulings on this?
NthDegree256 04-13-07, 03:45 PM	Here's an idea that I made as an off-the-cuff ruling in a one-shot. Well, not exactly a one-shot. If you don't want to bother with the backstory on this, skip to the bolded text. I was wrapping up an Eberron adaptation of the Shattered Gates of Slaughtergarde last Friday, and because of some shuffling around in our group, my regular collection of four PCs - a Karrnathi warblade, a half-elf swordsage, a Gatekeeper shifter spirit shaman, and an elven Greensinger druid - was going to have three more players attached to it. One of them played a goblin evoker, and the other a Talenta barbarian on dinoback. :D Everyone was 6th level. Anyway, the third extra player came in the one-shot as a 6th-level cleric of Boldrei, with the Brew Potion feat. This struck me as an odd choice, since this character was really only going to be around for one adventure - nowhere near long enough to spend time brewing up some potions. It was a feat chosen purely for roleplaying and character reasons, and I like to reward that, so during the equipment-buying phase - 13,000 gp! - I told her that her character could have a 25% discount on any potions she bought with her starting gold. So, to reiterate: What does everyone think about offering a small discount on all prepurchased equipment for which the PC meets the crafting prerequisites? Something like 25% off of the market price... maybe as low as 10%. I think it's a good approximation of the time and effort the character spent prior to the campaign; it allows the character who takes a magic item creation feat to come into the game with more or better equipment in their specialty area, without spending countless amounts of time working out the XP expenditures and crafting checks at each level and whatnot. It's not exact, but it's a LOT faster and easier.
goblin_pride 04-13-07, 04:07 PM	So, to reiterate: What does everyone think about offering a small discount on all prepurchased equipment for which the PC meets the crafting prerequisites? Something like 25% off of the market price... maybe as low as 10%. I think it's a good approximation of the time and effort the character spent prior to the campaign; it allows the character who takes a magic item creation feat to come into the game with more or better equipment in their specialty area, without spending countless amounts of time working out the XP expenditures and crafting checks at each level and whatnot. It's not exact, but it's a LOT faster and easier. That might work with a cleric or other class that doesn't have a craft reserve, but the artificer has XP to us in making the items specifically alloted to their class abilities. It would mean the artificer would be getting the shaft since the cost to create is half the base price, not the 25% discount. Long story short, making an artificer above first is difficult and time-consuming. I'm having trouble with one at fifth myself, I can hardly imagine the struggle at higher levels.
NthDegree256 04-14-07, 01:28 PM	That might work with a cleric or other class that doesn't have a craft reserve, but the artificer has XP to us in making the items specifically alloted to their class abilities. It would mean the artificer would be getting the shaft since the cost to create is half the base price, not the 25% discount. Long story short, making an artificer above first is difficult and time-consuming. I'm having trouble with one at fifth myself, I can hardly imagine the struggle at higher levels. Again, it's supposed to be an approximation. Here's my thinking; the discount is only 25%, but the player doesn't have to spend any XP and can start at the same level as everyone else. The player has the option, if everyone can put up with the time, of building their character level-by-level and crafting items as they go for the maximum GP savings, but this will also cause them to lose XP and have to start the game at a lower level than everyone else. So, in other words, they can take an hour or so to save 50% and lose some XP, or save time, 25% of the cost, and lose no XP. This does ignore the Artificer's craft reserve; I think it'd be sensible to say that either the Artificer is already benefiting by having a bunch of crafting feats for free (giving them the maximum benefit from this deal), or bumping the Artificer's discount to, I dunno, 35%? Again, my goal here is to be fair and efficient; I don't want to have to dedicate a whole hour to having the player make Craft and UMD checks just to save on some cash, but I do want to reflect the impact an item creation feat would have had on their character's past.
Cifer 04-15-07, 04:33 PM	This does ignore the Artificer's craft reserve; I think it'd be sensible to say that either the Artificer is already benefiting by having a bunch of crafting feats for free (giving them the maximum benefit from this deal), or bumping the Artificer's discount to, I dunno, 35%? I don't think so. Depending on the kind of artificer (blastificer or tending towards more permanent items), I'd just give him between 50 and 100% of his crafting reserve to craft with, thus balancing the amount of wands and scrolls he lost over the levels with the items he cannibalized. Doing otherwise is like saying "The fifteenth level sorcerer gets a fifth, sixth and seventh level spell. He doesn't get the spells from the lower levels because the game is starting at 15, but hey, at least he gets his new ones!" The crafted items are basically a class feature of the artificer. Denying them to him means severely weakening the class.
goblin_pride 04-15-07, 05:07 PM	So, in other words, they can take an hour or so to save 50% and lose some XP, or save time, 25% of the cost, and lose no XP. Or they can take the time to plot out what items they'll make and keep their XP but make use of their chosen class' craft reserve and lose no xp. An artificer's biggest benefit is the ability to make and have on hand all the nifty little toys that are bloody expensive and cost other classes xp to make. Now if you're allowing them to add the craft reserve to their XP total instead of spending it on making items it might be a different story..... As far as balancing it out because they get creation feats, that sounds to me like you're holding the choice of class against the player and would be no different than penalizing a fighter for his bonus feats.
goblin_pride 04-15-07, 05:10 PM	The crafted items are basically a class feature of the artificer. Denying them to him means severely weakening the class. And that's the whole thing in a nutshell. An artificer's real power is in the stuff he makes and by taking any of it away from him you're stripping away a class skill.
Edymnion 04-15-07, 06:31 PM	I don't think so. Depending on the kind of artificer (blastificer or tending towards more permanent items), I'd just give him between 50 and 100% of his crafting reserve to craft with, thus balancing the amount of wands and scrolls he lost over the levels with the items he cannibalized. Doing otherwise is like saying "The fifteenth level sorcerer gets a fifth, sixth and seventh level spell. He doesn't get the spells from the lower levels because the game is starting at 15, but hey, at least he gets his new ones!" The crafted items are basically a class feature of the artificer. Denying them to him means severely weakening the class.Except that, you know, the sorcerer specifically keeps any spells he knows until he decides to forget them. Unlike the Artificer who's craft reserve is entirely use it or lose it. The artificer is going to be using his craft reserve on things like potions/scrolls/wands which would run out before 15th level play starts. Or using it to make gear for the rest of the party (should the rest of the party get cheaper gear too, and just say the artificer made it for them?), and all of the levels where he flat out didn't get the chance to use all of his craft reserve before leveling up. Trust me, I have yet to see an artificer that actually managed to use all of their craft reserve every level. As for the retain essence argument, lets not forget that they first had to obtain the item to use RE on. Which would count against their character wealth. Which means if you use a lot of RE, sure, you get to make items at half price, but you had to sacrifice a FULL PRICED item to get it.
Werebat 04-15-07, 06:46 PM	Hey guys, I was considering playing an Artificer in an upcoming game, but we will most likely be starting above level 1, probably around level 10 or so. I was wondering how I should go about equiping my artificer with things he would have created between level 1 and level 10 but I'm not completely sure how to go about doing so, because it seems like there are a lot of in game factors that help with an artificer's crafting (such as the retain essence ability). I am interested to hear how others have handled this situation. Thanks for your help. Quick fix -- I think the DMG advises allowing NPCs who can craft an item to "buy" it at 70% of the total value (to account for 50% of cost plus the "cost" of lost xp). Since you should have been able to benefit from your craft reserve, it might be reasonable to allow you to buy any items you could craft yourself for 60% of the item's value. - Ron ^*^
NthDegree256 04-15-07, 10:10 PM	Or they can take the time to plot out what items they'll make and keep their XP but make use of their chosen class' craft reserve and lose no xp. An artificer's biggest benefit is the ability to make and have on hand all the nifty little toys that are bloody expensive and cost other classes xp to make. Now if you're allowing them to add the craft reserve to their XP total instead of spending it on making items it might be a different story..... So, like I said, maybe they should get a bigger discount than the average wizard or druid who took Brew Potion and has no craft reserve. As far as balancing it out because they get creation feats, that sounds to me like you're holding the choice of class against the player and would be no different than penalizing a fighter for his bonus feats. Whoa, whoa, whoa. That was not my intention at all. I think the artificer sounds like an awesome class, and I have no qualms about it or fears that it might be overpowered. What I DO have is an unfortunate lack of experience with the class; I've never had the opportunity to play as one (none of my fellow DMs run Eberron, and the one who does include artificers in his own setting hasn't run a game in a while), and none of my own players when I DM Eberron have ever had enough of an interest in the class to play it, much to my chagrin. The suggestion "maybe all of their bonus item feats make up for it" was just that, a suggestion, and I see there were some issues with it. I think you're missing the point of what I'm trying to get at; yes, building each item by hand, level by level, may be the most accurate and realistic way to give an artificer, or any character with item creation feats, the items they should have built. Actually, it might not even be; sometimes the PCs can level up pretty quickly, and I've heard numerous people say that this can outstrip an artificer's craft reserve, so letting a player milk every last drop of XP out of their levels could be a tad unrealistic. What I'm trying to point out is that this can take a long time, and if you don't have the ability to let the player take care of it ahead of time (they don't have the proper books, they don't have enough spare time, etc.) it can slow down the character creation process and make everyone else wait. If you're starting off a new campaign, it might be worth dedicating a large chunk of the session to in-depth, detailed character creation... but for, say, a one-shot adventure, time is of the essence and no one wants to have to skip the last big battle of the adventure because someone took an extra hour cross-referencing entries in the Magic Item Compendium for XP and GP costs, CL prerequisites, special requirements, and the like, several times over. But I still want to let players benefit from this class feature somehow. As an analogy, suppose you're running a game with a big, three-dozen-soldiers-on-either-side battle. Technically, you're supposed to move each one, roll their attacks individually, track seventy-odd different hit point totals... but no one does that, because it slows the game down so much. You ad-hoc it, either killing off soldiers as the storyline demands, rolling attacks en-masse for groups of soldiers instead of individuals, or whatever. It's a simplified approximation that has the same basic effect, sacrificing a bit of accuracy for a much faster and easier solution. I see that Werebat seems to have posted much the same idea I came up with (and with an apparent reference in the DMG? I'll have to check that out!) I just think that a quick ruling of that sort - a partial discount on craftable items, a bigger discount for artificers with a craft reserve, maybe even throw in a bit more for the Artisan feats - is a good way to quickly build a high-level crafter without sacrificing the effects of their previous levels. If you've got the time to build them level-by-level, sure! Go ahead! But my players and I are always short on time, one way or another, and I'm just looking for balance advice from other people on how best to speed up this process.
goblin_pride 04-16-07, 02:54 AM	If you've got the time to build them level-by-level, sure! Go ahead! But my players and I are always short on time, one way or another, and I'm just looking for balance advice from other people on how best to speed up this process. When a player was making an artificer for my game I just waved my hand and his rolls to create items just vanished. Granted he was only making scrolls, but it saved the time and effort of character generation and gave him a healthy dose of power at 2nd level that reflected the value of the artificer. My own way of explaining it is that the artificer could've gotten enough experience in crafting items he never had before that it boosted his XP enough that he could spend actual XP to make any items that the rolls would've failed on, without affecting his starting level.
Cifer 04-16-07, 08:18 AM	As for the retain essence argument, lets not forget that they first had to obtain the item to use RE on. Which would count against their character wealth. Which means if you use a lot of RE, sure, you get to make items at half price, but you had to sacrifice a FULL PRICED item to get it. There, I'd like to use your cool guide: A magical trap is a magic item - and I very much doubt people would count it as treasure. A CR2 trap gets you 40 XP, a CR3 one already 200 and more, easily multiplying your available craft reserve. Further, you can burn about 40 XP per day, so not being able to carry over the XP won't really be the problem as long as you're not massively pressed for time. Finally, there's still a small margin during which not leveling up instantly actually makes you get XP faster than the rest of the party, so you could level up one encounter behind the other players and keep the resulting XP as an additional craft reserve - if you e.g. stay at level 7 for one encounter longer than other players when they get their first CR 8 encounter, you receive about 180 exp more than they do, meaning you've just upped your craft reserve at 8th level by 2/3. With a few tricks, XP are the least of the artificer's problems.
Phalo 04-25-07, 01:23 AM	I have played an artificer and a hard fast rule for the craft reserve is about 10 gold per xp of craft reserve then let the character buy what ever he wants at like a 50% discount. This takes into account the items the character would use during the levels. To keep it in perspective it breaks down like this 1st level reserve 20 create scroll cure light wounds cost 25 gold 2xp sell price 50 gold net profit 25 gold 15 per xp point so that 300 at 1st level now lop off about 100 to be fair you most likely would have used a few scrolls missed a few checks Now add that total to the character wealth and let them buy up what they want. this is probably low balling the number but in any game i have been in gold was kinda a limited resource.
Occams_Razor 05-13-07, 01:42 PM	Personally, I'm with Endy on this one. I think it is fair to require the characters to all start with equivalent amounts of gold and buy equipment from that pool. Otherwise, the Artificer starts with "extra" stuff, and I see that as just too easy to abuse. Alternately, it might be fair to assume XP for crafting by level and charge the artificer crafted price rather than market price for things like a homonculous as long as the artificer isn't burning through more XP than she/he would receive during leveling to the starting level. Otherwise, a player with the time to do the math could "create" themselves quite an arsenal with the starting gold received above level 1, and that just seems a little imbalanced.
Pinky's brain 05-13-07, 02:01 PM	I'd allow you half of the craft reserve of your previous levels to create items with. In principle wealth by level should count for the artificer as well, but on the other hand the artificer is alone that he uses far more charged items than other classes ... a small cache of them on top of normal wealth seems appropriate.
Captain_Kobold 05-13-07, 07:54 PM	I'm starting a new 12th level campaign, and one of the incoming PCs is an artificer. What a nightmare. All of his items are custom, and not standard items out of the book. His starting gp is supposed to be 88k, but his XP cost drops him down to 11th level (66k). I'm not sure if I should give him the 88k or the 66k. He should have the 88k I would have thought. The character has been through enough chances to gather wealth as a 12th level character. He just has spent enough experience to drop him a level. Look at the non-standard items carefully. A common 'mistake' with item crafting is to base the cost on the table given in the DMG without comparing it to existing items first. Worse, I have to look over and calculate each item - which triples my workload. His grand total so far is over 300k worth of crafted items. I want him to enjoy the class and you can't if there are too many limitation on his crafting ability, but something here is broken. If he makes an item, the raw materials cost him 50% of the base price. If he has created 300k worth of items, it would have cost him 150k worth of materials. (Or 113k if he picked up extraordinary artisan feat at level 1.) I may just allow him to craft 88k worth of items, but limited to the market value. He'll just have a lot of gold left over. I'd also considered allowing him to buy the XP at 25gp:1 XP. Perhaps just allow him his craft reserve from the last level, and assume that the previous levels were used up in disposable items, infusions, and lost opportunities. He can of course, also spend his actual XP as well.
Cifer 05-13-07, 08:49 PM	@Occams Please do not forget that artificers are supposed to be equipped better than other characters - that's what they get in exchange for mediocre HP, BAB and only one good save. How many of their class features don't deal with magic items and their creation? OK, they've got their infusions, but those pale in comparison with the three core-casters. So the thing that brings them up to eye-level with others is indeed their abundance of magical items which is precisely what they'd have if they did play through those early levels.
Occams_Razor 05-16-07, 12:29 PM	Cifer, I agree, however I also think that it is fair to assume that a significant portion of the gear from any given level would have been limited to either single use or charges, especially at the lower levels. This gear, it would then follow might reasonably be assumed to have been used completely or in part over the course of his subsequent adventures. To allow full use of his crafting XP and Character wealth would be like assuming he created everything he thought he'd need and never used any of it. Maybe I'm off here, but it just doesn't seem equitable to me. Should he have more gear? Yes. Should he have the accumulated gear of 12 levels without any sort of attrition? I don't believe so, but that's just my 2cp.
Cifer 05-16-07, 01:11 PM	@Occams As I already said above, there are a lot of ways to get the XP needed for crafting, beginning with cannibalizing items and traps that would be left behind otherwise and ending with leveling up one encounter after the other party members. So by giving him his full craft reserve, you already take into account attrition since you don't give him access to all the other sources of XP he might have.
Occams_Razor 05-16-07, 06:12 PM	While I agree that cannibalizing traps would be a source of XP that should be taken into consideration, I would argue that the fraction of traps encountered which are purely magical in nature, and therefore able to be cannibalized, is relatively small. Magical items cannibalized should count against his share of treasure, therefore being considered part of his character wealth by level. As I have never played an aritificer, nor run a campaign with one played more than a few sessions, I feel it important to note that my knowledge on this subject is limited to theoretical and no experiencial consideration. However, I feel that giving the Artificer 75% of his XP crafting pool per level and dlineating his wealth per level to correspond with his XP crafting pool for any given level would be a lot of work, but the most equitable way for the artificer to establish his current gearing. However, to make things quicker, I suppose it would only be slightly less equitable to give 75% of the cumulative pool and allow the artificer to go somewhat hog-wild with his or her gear. Essentially, I completely agree that artificers get gear, that's what allows them to keep abreast of their companions. However, a character which has leveled through to 12th level naturally will have limitations upon the gear they can create for themselves based upon the resources available to them during their career as an adventurer. If giving full credit to the artificer works, go for it. My only concern is that if the DM fails to take into consideration that a player with an equivalent level artificer who started at level 1 were in the campaign, there might be a discrepency in gearing between the two artificers. What this illustrates is that an artificer should have all sorts of fun little toys, but the DM should make sure that the player doesn't get too crazy, making himself +5 mithril shirt of heavy fortification (Not sure that that would really be enough, but I don't have my books with me to do the math and figure out what the dump point would be...) and suddenly out-classing his companions through a single item that his character really wouldn't have been able to make because the natural progression of the character would have depleted his resources steadily and prevented sufficient accumulation.