Artificers and Crafting Constructs. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Artificers and Crafting Constructs. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Doomhunter
05-03-07, 10:41 PM What does an Artificer need to do in order to craft an Iron Defender?

The book tells me that I need Arcane Eye, Keen Edge, and Mending. Those are all Arcane Spells and an Artificer can't cast any of them.

Am I expected to buy scrolls every time I make a new Homunculus?

Or can I use my Use Magic Device skill? What would the DC be for UMD if it is possible?
Ukkic
05-04-07, 01:37 AM You use emulate them the same way you would when creating a magic item, using Use Magic Device.

The Use Magic Device DC for emulating a spell is 20 + CL.

-Ukkic
Doomhunter
05-04-07, 07:27 AM But what am I emulating? The aility to cast each spell seperatly, so I need to roll UMD 3 times? Or do I just roll once for the highest level spell?
Bluebrush
05-04-07, 07:53 AM Re-read the artificer description.

As far as I recall, you get a try at each spell once per day of crafting, plus one last-ditch effort before you finish if you've failed.

So, you get two tries to make a CL1 level 1 spell scroll (25gp, less than 1000gp) and nine tries for a +1 Flaming weapon (8,000gp, so eight days to craft the magic bit).
Cifer
05-04-07, 06:04 PM You get to make three separate UMD rolls every day. In all three lines, one of them has to succeed before the homunculus is finished.

However, there has been the idea put forward that you might be able to substitute a schema for the UMDing which would explain how the class feature can be actually used at the time it's received since you can't emulate spells for item creation if they need a caster level which is three or more levels above your own.
Pinky's brain
05-05-07, 04:24 AM Your artificer level (+2) has to equal to the minimum caster level of the item. The minimum caster level of any item without a caster level prerequisite is 1, the only homunculus with a caster level prerequisite is the one from the MM (and only 4 at that).
daota
05-06-07, 01:01 PM DMG page 215 reads (after errata):

For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell and not higher than her own caster level. For example, at 5th level, Mialee could scribe a scroll of invisibility at caster level 3rd (making it last 3 minutes), caster level 4th (4 minutes), or caster level 5th (5 minutes). For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the creator. The minimum caster level is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given.

Since all homunculus require Arcane Eye, and a caster level of 7 is needed for Arcane Eye, the minimum caster level for a homunculus is 7 (or 5 for an Artificer).

At least, that's the most accurate interpretation I've seen so far.
Doomhunter
05-06-07, 06:19 PM I'm a 6th level Artificer, my Craft (Metalworking) skill is +12, my UMD skill is +10

So, to make an Iron Defendermy 6th level my Artificer will need...

75 gp for the body
1,250 gp for the components
93 xp

The DC's will be...
Craft (Metalworking) DC 14 (I can take 10 if I want)
Emuate Arcane Eye spell UMD DC 27
Emuate Keen Edge spell UMD DC 27
Emuate Minor Image spell UMD DC 23
Emuate Mending spell UMD DC 21

It takes 8 hours, I can't take 10 on the UMD checke, if I fail any of the checks I only get one re-roll.

Am I missing anything? That seems pretty hard to get.
Cifer
05-06-07, 08:13 PM Am I missing anything? That seems pretty hard to get.
Only one thing: You have four chances for every check - 1250 gp material costs means the "virtual market price" is 2500 gp. This means three days of work (one per 1000 gp, fractions being rounded up), each of them with checks for all the spells and then there are the last-ditch checks (it is recommended to spend action points here if you still don't make it and will level up shortly).

However, you might want to up your chances a little. There is debate about whether it is legitimate to up your UMD by some buffs - IMO it's ok, but some others say at least short term ones don't work. My reasoning is that you make the checks at a certain point of the day and can thus buff yourself at precisely that time (compare it to building a car: You build the car for a long time, but there's only one time where you put on the wheels which is the time where you can read the manual "How to install wheels").
So if you and your DM agree that buffs are ok, take a look at the following:
-Skill enhancement (UMD) should be the most simple one. Direct +6 to your UMD
-Eagle's splendor (or a magical item that mimics it) enhances your charisma and thus your UMD. A further +2.
-If you can somehow call in favors, try to borrow a circlet of persuasion for these three days. That's a +3.
-Finally, there is debate about whether one can make an item that grants a direct bonus towards UMD just like a ring of (greater) climbing or the boots of elvenkind would. If you and your DM decide it's ok to have those, try to borrow one (and craft one for yourself later).
Arryn
05-06-07, 08:50 PM Just to add something else to the mix, do the (Fill in the Blank) Artisan Feats apply when it comes to crafting Constructs and Homunculi? Is the XP, Price, Time ect lowered by these feats when making an, oh say, Dedicated Wright?
Pinky's brain
05-06-07, 09:50 PM Since all homunculus require Arcane Eye, and a caster level of 7 is needed for Arcane Eye, the minimum caster level for a homunculus is 7 (or 5 for an Artificer).

At least, that's the most accurate interpretation I've seen so far.Prerequisites can be met with scrolls and wands and a first level caster can use those.
daota
05-07-07, 12:49 AM Prerequisites can be met with scrolls and wands and a first level caster can use those.

Scrolls or wands can meet the spell prerequisites but they don't help with the minimum caster level.

(edit: changed "caster level prerequisite" to "minimum caster level")
Pinky's brain
05-07-07, 05:36 AM Just to quote your quote :
The minimum caster level is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given.
If you can meet the prerequisites at CL1 the minimum CL is 1, and at CL1 you can meet any prerequisite for any magic item without an actual caster level prerequisite (through cooperative item creation and scrolls / wands / staffs).
daota
05-07-07, 12:20 PM Just to quote your quote :

If you can meet the prerequisites at CL1 the minimum CL is 1, and at CL1 you can meet any prerequisite for any magic item without an actual caster level prerequisite (through cooperative item creation and scrolls / wands / staffs).

I'd considered that interpretation, but if that was the intent why would they have said that other items have a minimum caster level at all, much less one tied to spell prerequisites? They could have more simply said that other items have no minimum caster level, or have a minimum caster level of 1.
Pinky's brain
05-07-07, 11:04 PM The caster level entries on a whole shitload of items is lower than what is needed to cast it's prerequisite spells for instance, what did they intend with that? Talking about intent gives them more respect than they are due in this case ... they didn't really think about the end effects of any of this.
daota
05-07-07, 11:11 PM The caster level entries on a whole shitload of items is lower than what is needed to cast it's prerequisite spells for instance, what did they intend with that? Talking about intent gives them more respect than they are due in this case ... they didn't really think about the end effects of any of this.

There can be no doubt that item creation rules could use a lot clarification. I was disappointed that this wasn't addressed in the Magic Item Compendium, but what can you do?

Do you have some examples of items with caster levels that are too low, especially from the DMG? I've been trying to make sense of item creation for a while now (I have an Artificer character) and every little bit helps.
Pinky's brain
05-08-07, 12:07 AM I don't know of any for which the caster level is too low, since I see nothing wrong with creating items at lower caster levels despite high spell level prerequisites (if they don't cast the actual spell and aren't charged or single use). That is you.

That said, just scroll through the wondrous item section of the SRD ... you will spot enough examples. A couple with true seeing for prerequisite for instance : Elixir of Vision, goggles of minute seeing etc etc.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Doomhunter 05-03-07, 10:41 PM	What does an Artificer need to do in order to craft an Iron Defender? The book tells me that I need Arcane Eye, Keen Edge, and Mending. Those are all Arcane Spells and an Artificer can't cast any of them. Am I expected to buy scrolls every time I make a new Homunculus? Or can I use my Use Magic Device skill? What would the DC be for UMD if it is possible?
Ukkic 05-04-07, 01:37 AM	You use emulate them the same way you would when creating a magic item, using Use Magic Device. The Use Magic Device DC for emulating a spell is 20 + CL. -Ukkic
Doomhunter 05-04-07, 07:27 AM	But what am I emulating? The aility to cast each spell seperatly, so I need to roll UMD 3 times? Or do I just roll once for the highest level spell?
Bluebrush 05-04-07, 07:53 AM	Re-read the artificer description. As far as I recall, you get a try at each spell once per day of crafting, plus one last-ditch effort before you finish if you've failed. So, you get two tries to make a CL1 level 1 spell scroll (25gp, less than 1000gp) and nine tries for a +1 Flaming weapon (8,000gp, so eight days to craft the magic bit).
Cifer 05-04-07, 06:04 PM	You get to make three separate UMD rolls every day. In all three lines, one of them has to succeed before the homunculus is finished. However, there has been the idea put forward that you might be able to substitute a schema for the UMDing which would explain how the class feature can be actually used at the time it's received since you can't emulate spells for item creation if they need a caster level which is three or more levels above your own.
Pinky's brain 05-05-07, 04:24 AM	Your artificer level (+2) has to equal to the minimum caster level of the item. The minimum caster level of any item without a caster level prerequisite is 1, the only homunculus with a caster level prerequisite is the one from the MM (and only 4 at that).
daota 05-06-07, 01:01 PM	DMG page 215 reads (after errata): For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell and not higher than her own caster level. For example, at 5th level, Mialee could scribe a scroll of invisibility at caster level 3rd (making it last 3 minutes), caster level 4th (4 minutes), or caster level 5th (5 minutes). For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the creator. The minimum caster level is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given. Since all homunculus require Arcane Eye, and a caster level of 7 is needed for Arcane Eye, the minimum caster level for a homunculus is 7 (or 5 for an Artificer). At least, that's the most accurate interpretation I've seen so far.
Doomhunter 05-06-07, 06:19 PM	I'm a 6th level Artificer, my Craft (Metalworking) skill is +12, my UMD skill is +10 So, to make an Iron Defendermy 6th level my Artificer will need... 75 gp for the body 1,250 gp for the components 93 xp The DC's will be... Craft (Metalworking) DC 14 (I can take 10 if I want) Emuate Arcane Eye spell UMD DC 27 Emuate Keen Edge spell UMD DC 27 Emuate Minor Image spell UMD DC 23 Emuate Mending spell UMD DC 21 It takes 8 hours, I can't take 10 on the UMD checke, if I fail any of the checks I only get one re-roll. Am I missing anything? That seems pretty hard to get.
Cifer 05-06-07, 08:13 PM	Am I missing anything? That seems pretty hard to get. Only one thing: You have four chances for every check - 1250 gp material costs means the "virtual market price" is 2500 gp. This means three days of work (one per 1000 gp, fractions being rounded up), each of them with checks for all the spells and then there are the last-ditch checks (it is recommended to spend action points here if you still don't make it and will level up shortly). However, you might want to up your chances a little. There is debate about whether it is legitimate to up your UMD by some buffs - IMO it's ok, but some others say at least short term ones don't work. My reasoning is that you make the checks at a certain point of the day and can thus buff yourself at precisely that time (compare it to building a car: You build the car for a long time, but there's only one time where you put on the wheels which is the time where you can read the manual "How to install wheels"). So if you and your DM agree that buffs are ok, take a look at the following: -Skill enhancement (UMD) should be the most simple one. Direct +6 to your UMD -Eagle's splendor (or a magical item that mimics it) enhances your charisma and thus your UMD. A further +2. -If you can somehow call in favors, try to borrow a circlet of persuasion for these three days. That's a +3. -Finally, there is debate about whether one can make an item that grants a direct bonus towards UMD just like a ring of (greater) climbing or the boots of elvenkind would. If you and your DM decide it's ok to have those, try to borrow one (and craft one for yourself later).
Arryn 05-06-07, 08:50 PM	Just to add something else to the mix, do the (Fill in the Blank) Artisan Feats apply when it comes to crafting Constructs and Homunculi? Is the XP, Price, Time ect lowered by these feats when making an, oh say, Dedicated Wright?
Pinky's brain 05-06-07, 09:50 PM	Since all homunculus require Arcane Eye, and a caster level of 7 is needed for Arcane Eye, the minimum caster level for a homunculus is 7 (or 5 for an Artificer). At least, that's the most accurate interpretation I've seen so far.Prerequisites can be met with scrolls and wands and a first level caster can use those.
daota 05-07-07, 12:49 AM	Prerequisites can be met with scrolls and wands and a first level caster can use those. Scrolls or wands can meet the spell prerequisites but they don't help with the minimum caster level. (edit: changed "caster level prerequisite" to "minimum caster level")
Pinky's brain 05-07-07, 05:36 AM	Just to quote your quote : The minimum caster level is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given. If you can meet the prerequisites at CL1 the minimum CL is 1, and at CL1 you can meet any prerequisite for any magic item without an actual caster level prerequisite (through cooperative item creation and scrolls / wands / staffs).
daota 05-07-07, 12:20 PM	Just to quote your quote : If you can meet the prerequisites at CL1 the minimum CL is 1, and at CL1 you can meet any prerequisite for any magic item without an actual caster level prerequisite (through cooperative item creation and scrolls / wands / staffs). I'd considered that interpretation, but if that was the intent why would they have said that other items have a minimum caster level at all, much less one tied to spell prerequisites? They could have more simply said that other items have no minimum caster level, or have a minimum caster level of 1.
Pinky's brain 05-07-07, 11:04 PM	The caster level entries on a whole shitload of items is lower than what is needed to cast it's prerequisite spells for instance, what did they intend with that? Talking about intent gives them more respect than they are due in this case ... they didn't really think about the end effects of any of this.
daota 05-07-07, 11:11 PM	The caster level entries on a whole shitload of items is lower than what is needed to cast it's prerequisite spells for instance, what did they intend with that? Talking about intent gives them more respect than they are due in this case ... they didn't really think about the end effects of any of this. There can be no doubt that item creation rules could use a lot clarification. I was disappointed that this wasn't addressed in the Magic Item Compendium, but what can you do? Do you have some examples of items with caster levels that are too low, especially from the DMG? I've been trying to make sense of item creation for a while now (I have an Artificer character) and every little bit helps.
Pinky's brain 05-08-07, 12:07 AM	I don't know of any for which the caster level is too low, since I see nothing wrong with creating items at lower caster levels despite high spell level prerequisites (if they don't cast the actual spell and aren't charged or single use). That is you. That said, just scroll through the wondrous item section of the SRD ... you will spot enough examples. A couple with true seeing for prerequisite for instance : Elixir of Vision, goggles of minute seeing etc etc.