Post/Author/DateTime	Post
lifeblender 03-17-07, 01:53 AM	Does an Artificer's caster level count when they use UMD to activate a staff? For instance, a level 10 Artificer gets a Staff of Fire. The artificer uses the Activate Wand part of Use Magic Device to activate the staff to cast a Fireball. (This is noted as legal by a note at the end of that UMD section.) Do they cast a 5d6 or a 10d6 Fireball? (Originally posted here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11742246&postcount=4127), but it seems more like a pure Eberron rules question.) If this isn't a valid place for the question, let me know.
Dragom 03-17-07, 02:55 AM	Could try in magic and Dieties... I think most people would ignore the fact artificers have no caster level and adjust the caster level to equate his artificer level.
Pinky's brain 03-17-07, 04:47 AM	Artificers most certainly have caster level ... almost all their infusions are caster level dependent in one way or another (duration, potency etc).
yrogerg 03-17-07, 09:15 AM	nevermind, incoherent.
Deekin 03-17-07, 07:28 PM	UMD: Emulate a Class Feature Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above). Having a caster level is a class feature.
aelryinth 03-17-07, 11:14 PM	No, it isn't. He can pretend he has a caster level of x in y class for purposes of need for a check...the check is part of the requiement of using a scroll. There is NO check called for in using a staff. It's an Option of the Caster. Since there is no check called for, the UMD usage does not apply. On the flip side, he does have a caster level, and it would make thematic sense to let him use his Artificer caster level. RAW, however, he doesn't get it...but then, RAW is sometimes clear as mud, too. ===Aelryinth
yrogerg 03-18-07, 04:19 AM	No, it isn't. He can pretend he has a caster level of x in y class for purposes of need for a check...the check is part of the requiement of using a scroll. There is NO check called for in using a staff. It's an Option of the Caster. Since there is no check called for, the UMD usage does not apply. That's not really correct, either; Staves are spell-trigger items, and it's a DC 20 UMD check to emulate having a certain class's spell list (per the Activate Wands text). That said, the UMD rules don't really provide a way to emulate caster levels for spell-trigger items.
lifeblender 03-18-07, 04:38 PM	That's not really correct, either; Staves are spell-trigger items, and it's a DC 20 UMD check to emulate having a certain class's spell list (per the Activate Wands text). That said, the UMD rules don't really provide a way to emulate caster levels for spell-trigger items. And that's why I've been wrestling with this in the first place. I think it would be a bad idea to let anyone with UMD use a staff at a higher caster level, and I don't think the rules support it. On the other hand, if Artificers can't get the most out of Staffs that they make, which are one of the most powerful classes of items at high levels, then it robs the Artificer of some power and some incentive for them to make Staffs. Not a huge blow, but it's important to know which way it should go. However, I have two arguments to make at this point, and together I believe that they show that Artificers can make full use of staffs. First I want to show that ANY caster level can be used for a staff, not merely the caster level for the class which allows the use of the staff. Quotes of the relevant sections: Staff Descriptions section of Magic Items IV, in SRD: Staffs use the wielder’s ability score and relevant feats to set the DC for saves against their spells. Unlike with other sorts of magic items, the wielder can use his caster level when activating the power of a staff if it’s higher than the caster level of the staff. UMD Use Wand Description, in SRD (emphasis mine): Use a Wand: Normally, to use a wand, you must have the wand’s spell on your class spell list. This use of the skill allows you to use a wand as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. This use of the skill also applies to other spell trigger magic items, such as staffs. Spell Trigger Description in Magic Items I, in SRD: Spell Trigger: Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it’s even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Anyone with a spell on his or her spell list knows how to use a spell trigger item that stores that spell. (This is the case even for a character who can’t actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin.) There is no wording which indicates that only a certain caster level can be used. None at all. It simply states that a caster level can be used. Therefore a caster level from any class can be used when activating a staff. This makes a dip into a second spellcasting class extremely useful for a mainline spellcaster. Second, I want to show that Artificers have a caster level. Artificer Infusions: An artificer is not a spellcaster, but he does have the ability to imbue items with magical infusions. Infusions are neither arcane nor divine; ... <snip> An artificer cannot automatically use a spell trigger or spell completion item if the equivalent spell appears on his infusion list. <snip> Note that no mention is made of Artificer caster level at all. No errata for that book mentions it either. However, the infusions use time/level calculations, and the section following does mention an Artificer caster level. Artificers and Prestige Classes, Magic of Eberron p. 53: Artificers benefit in a specific way from prestige classes that have "+1 level of existing spellcasting class" as a level advancement benefit. An artificer taking levels in such a prestige class does not gain any of his class abilities, but he does gain an increased caster level when using his infusions. Levels of prestige classes that provide +1 level of spellcasting effectively stack with the artificer's level to determine his effective caster level. <snip> This definitely shows that Artificers have a caster level equal to their class level plus prestige class and bonuses, just like a spellcaster. Therefore the Artificer has a normal caster level and can use it when they use UMD to activate a staff. Comments or corrections?
aelryinth 03-18-07, 07:41 PM	What you are doing is attempting to read into the rules and create a valid circumstance. FYI, this debate over UMD and caster levels has been going on for about 3 years over on Character Optimization, who take the rules VERY seriously. Generally speaking, the agreement is that UMD as written does not explicitly allow Artificers to use their Caster level with staves. It Expressly does not allow UMD skill checks to set the caster level of the staff. Again, thematically, I myself find no problem with the idea. The Artificer class was made after the UMD rules, and thus is clearly an exception. By adding the sorc/wiz list to his own, it seems reasonable to allow his Artificer level to set the casting level of the staff. But it is not Expressly allowed, because no other class is set up this way, and the check for eligibility to use the staff does NOT do anything more then that...including giving him a caster level for that class whose list he now has fooled the item into having. I myself would permit it, however, as probably would most others, simply because it makes sense. ===Aelryinth
lifeblender 03-18-07, 10:09 PM	What about the first argument, though? That has nothing to do with UMD at all. Has that been debated? I did search and ask in character optimization, but could not get a definite answer. The first argument is that "caster level" in the description for staffs does not imply caster level for a certain class, allowing any class's caster level to be used. I can repost over there again if necessary, but I've been trying to find an agreement one way or another.
yrogerg 03-18-07, 10:32 PM	And that's why I've been wrestling with this in the first place. I think it would be a bad idea to let anyone with UMD use a staff at a higher caster level, and I don't think the rules support it. On the other hand, if Artificers can't get the most out of Staffs that they make, which are one of the most powerful classes of items at high levels, then it robs the Artificer of some power and some incentive for them to make Staffs. Not a huge blow, but it's important to know which way it should go. However, I have two arguments to make at this point, and together I believe that they show that Artificers can make full use of staffs. First I want to show that ANY caster level can be used for a staff, not merely the caster level for the class which allows the use of the staff. Quotes of the relevant sections: Staff Descriptions section of Magic Items IV, in SRD: UMD Use Wand Description, in SRD (emphasis mine): Spell Trigger Description in Magic Items I, in SRD: There is no wording which indicates that only a certain caster level can be used. None at all. It simply states that a caster level can be used. Therefore a caster level from any class can be used when activating a staff. This makes a dip into a second spellcasting class extremely useful for a mainline spellcaster. Second, I want to show that Artificers have a caster level. Artificer Infusions: Note that no mention is made of Artificer caster level at all. No errata for that book mentions it either. However, the infusions use time/level calculations, and the section following does mention an Artificer caster level. Artificers and Prestige Classes, Magic of Eberron p. 53: This definitely shows that Artificers have a caster level equal to their class level plus prestige class and bonuses, just like a spellcaster. Therefore the Artificer has a normal caster level and can use it when they use UMD to activate a staff. Comments or corrections? I agree that it's not super game-breaking if an artificer is simply applying his Artificer level to staves; however, if the artificer is the one crafting them, they're already set *at* his caster level, mooting most of the issue, give or take a caster level or two. The only real problem I see is with this: An artificer cannot automatically use a spell trigger or spell completion item if the equivalent spell appears on his infusion list. In itself, not problematic, but one could easily read the implication that, since the Artificer list doesn't "count" for activating spell trigger items, their caster level shouldn't apply, either. Also, I do actually disagree with you regarding whether characters can apply unrelated caster levels to staves; I'd kinda have a problem with a Cleric 19/Wizard 1 casting CL 19 Arcane-only spells out of a staff. Even if it's not an actual abuse risk, it *feels* cheesy and like a violation of the magic system's verisimilitude, IMO. I would contend that the caster level applied to staves should be the caster level derived from the same class that provides the spell list being used.
lifeblender 03-19-07, 03:05 AM	<snip> In itself, not problematic, but one could easily read the implication that, since the Artificer list doesn't "count" for activating spell trigger items, their caster level shouldn't apply, either. Also, I do actually disagree with you regarding whether characters can apply unrelated caster levels to staves; I'd kinda have a problem with a Cleric 19/Wizard 1 casting CL 19 Arcane-only spells out of a staff. Even if it's not an actual abuse risk, it *feels* cheesy and like a violation of the magic system's verisimilitude, IMO. I would contend that the caster level applied to staves should be the caster level derived from the same class that provides the spell list being used. As far as RAW, I don't see any way to prove that implication. There's a lot of prestige classes out there, for instance, which are designed to advance Bard or Paladin spellcasting but can be used to advance Sorcerer or Cleric spellcasting. We haven't ruled otherwise. I definitely agree that it would be abusive for a Cleric 19 / Wizard 1 to have a caster level of at least 19 for arcane staffs (e.g. Practiced Spellcaster raises it to 20). However, the fact that that would be abusive does not prevent it from being allowed by RAW. I would like to find out whether or not RAW allows it, and I think that I've shown that it does. When something abusive is allowed, that means that a newer version (errata or next D&D version) should be altered not to allow it. Houseruling rather than exposing the flaw prevents beneficial development of the game. Also, it (if correct) does allow Artificers to do what seems appropriate, even if it also allows others to do inappropriate things. Of course, in my campaigns, I will houserule that it is overpowered and wrong for a Cleric 19 / Wizard 1 to use arcane-only staffs with high caster levels, unless someone shows me a game balance reason that it isn't broken. Of course, if Artificers are allowed to use their caster levels with staffs that they activate by UMD, then they can also use any arcane-only or druid-only or cleric-only staffs, just like the abusive example could. So the Cleric 19 / Wizard 1 wouldn't be that much more powerful than an Artificer with a lot of staffs on hand that they had made cheaply. So, does anyone support my logic? Anyone deny it, for Rules as Written?
yrogerg 03-19-07, 07:39 AM	As far as RAW, I don't see any way to prove that implication. There's a lot of prestige classes out there, for instance, which are designed to advance Bard or Paladin spellcasting but can be used to advance Sorcerer or Cleric spellcasting. We haven't ruled otherwise. Sure. As one of my pervious characters was a Ranger/Assassin/Dragon Disciple who used his DD levels to advance his Ranger spellcasting, I wholeheartedly agree. I definitely agree that it would be abusive for a Cleric 19 / Wizard 1 to have a caster level of at least 19 for arcane staffs (e.g. Practiced Spellcaster raises it to 20). However, the fact that that would be abusive does not prevent it from being allowed by RAW. I would like to find out whether or not RAW allows it, and I think that I've shown that it does. When something abusive is allowed, that means that a newer version (errata or next D&D version) should be altered not to allow it. Houseruling rather than exposing the flaw prevents beneficial development of the game. Also, it (if correct) does allow Artificers to do what seems appropriate, even if it also allows others to do inappropriate things. Again, I don't disagree. However, one of the most appropriate places for Houserules is in situations where RAI conflicts with the literal RAW. And since your original post wasn't asking only for RAW, arguing that staff casting using an off-list caster level probably isn't RAI was still fair game.
lifeblender 03-19-07, 03:27 PM	Sure. As one of my pervious characters was a Ranger/Assassin/Dragon Disciple who used his DD levels to advance his Ranger spellcasting, I wholeheartedly agree. Again, I don't disagree. However, one of the most appropriate places for Houserules is in situations where RAI conflicts with the literal RAW. And since your original post wasn't asking only for RAW, arguing that staff casting using an off-list caster level probably isn't RAI was still fair game. No problem with your replies. I'm glad to have this hashed out as much as it has been. I've been combing D&D for places that are slightly broken or need clarification. It looks like this is another outstanding issue, both on the caster level for Artificers using staffs part and the relevant/allowed caster level for staffs part. This one has bothered me since before even I heard about these boards, so thanks.
Roland the Crownbreaker 03-19-07, 08:08 PM	One question: Has anyone ruled on how staves and bards interact? After all, bards have access to Use Magic Devive, and also have a caster level. And since both exist in the core rules, there has possibly been a ruling on this subject already. (The games I play in do allow bards to use thier own caster level with staves, while rogues are stuck with the minimum caster level needed to cast the highest level spell in the item)
yrogerg 03-19-07, 11:11 PM	One question: Has anyone ruled on how staves and bards interact? After all, bards have access to Use Magic Devive, and also have a caster level. And since both exist in the core rules, there has possibly been a ruling on this subject already. (The games I play in do allow bards to use thier own caster level with staves, while rogues are stuck with the minimum caster level needed to cast the highest level spell in the item) Well, staves have an item caster level that you can choose to use instead of your own caster level; it's listed right next to the item price and required spells for crafting, and is irrespective of the minimum CL of the spells themselves. That said, Bards are a similar situation, but it's still more akin to the Cleric/Wizard issue; they can emulate another classes' spell list, but can they use their own caster level despite the lack of appropriate spells? There remains a key difference with Artificers in that there's an important sense (activating spell-trigger items) in which they *don't* have a spell list, at all.
Elderich 03-20-07, 03:58 PM	Asked and answered here http://boards1.wizards.com/archive/index.php/t-715840.html There was at one time a HUGE thread on the "Stafficer., and it is very RAW, but was "errataed" by cust serv. They did not want to errata UMD to fix the whole that allows UMD to create "the Stafficer". In my campaigns I allow the "Emulate a Class Feature" to be used by the artificer to emulate the caster level, and cap the emulation to the characters ECL. But Items may stack this higher. It just seems wizards using a staff much better than artificers is wrong. But abusing ones staff is also... wrong. Notice in this quote of the Text of UMD how Lidda emulates the level of cleric. Emulate a Class Feature: Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. For example, Lidda finds a magic chalice that turns regular water into holy water when a cleric or an experienced paladin channels positive energy into it as if turning undead. She attempts to activate the item by emulating the cleric’s undead turning ability. Her effective cleric level is her check result minus 20. Since a cleric can turn undead at 1st level, she needs a Use Magic Device check result of 21 or higher to succeed. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).Here is the ORIGINAL Stafficer Archive... http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-387497.html You may peruse the threads using a Google something like this. site:boards1.wizards.com Stafficer