Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dragom 02-26-07, 01:45 AM	Beguilers have curious faults in roleplay, (Besides the point I want to cry "Munchkin!" when I try to compare a 1st level Beguiler with a 1st level Wizard) Mainly I can't imagine how a person becomes such a character. I can imagine an over inquisitive Seren youth venturing into a cave where a young dragon has come to sulk after being dismissed by his elders and spending long hours watching with awe this creature until said dragon tells the youth to bugger off. Perhaps the dragon would be inclined to give a scale just to be rid of the youth with less inconvienience. I can imagine such a child then growing into a Dragon Shaman. True Beguilers are like Rogues, but they learn arcane spells that they cast in a most wizardly fashion, except that they apparently learn these spells from nowhere imparticular. Not innatly like a Sorcerer, or from a College or Master like a Wizard. They just don't seem to fit. I could Imagine that if a Sorcerer was raised in poverty and forced to deception and petty tricks to survive he might grow into something similar... Except that his spells would be Charisma based. Or a Hyper specialized Wizard that only couldn't muster enough interest to learn spells of schools other then Illusion and Enchantment, that still was stuck carrying a book, and going to a wizards college. I mean how do you right a back story for such a character that isn't "???" that shall never be resolved or known? It's kind of a sticking point between me and buying that PHB II.
Tevin Kevlak 02-26-07, 02:00 AM	If you don't like the fluff of the beguiler class, change it. It would most likely be changed to be more in tune with the Eberron setting anyway. There's your answer, easy peasy japanesey.
Dragom 02-26-07, 02:04 AM	I mean how should I mutilate this Base Class, so it fits D&D fluff. Or can someone think of some working fluff.
Tevin Kevlak 02-26-07, 02:09 AM	Well there's going to be a difference between just regular D&D fluff and Eberron fluff but there are any number of options including the ones you suggested earlier. They gain their powers in the same way as Sorcerers do... if you want to expand on that say that beguilers typically have a Succubus somewhere down their bloodline which explains their focus on enchantment and illusion. The possibilities are endless really, use your imagination and come up with what you think makes them a cooler class to play.
Dragom 02-26-07, 02:23 AM	But innate spells are Charisma based. The Beguiler's spells are Intelligence based. Hence he learned them somewhere.
johnkretzer 02-26-07, 02:27 AM	Beguilers have curious faults in roleplay, (Besides the point I want to cry "Munchkin!" when I try to compare a 1st level Beguiler with a 1st level Wizard) Mainly I can't imagine how a person becomes such a character. I can imagine an over inquisitive Seren youth venturing into a cave where a young dragon has come to sulk after being dismissed by his elders and spending long hours watching with awe this creature until said dragon tells the youth to bugger off. Perhaps the dragon would be inclined to give a scale just to be rid of the youth with less inconvienience. I can imagine such a child then growing into a Dragon Shaman. True Beguilers are like Rogues, but they learn arcane spells that they cast in a most wizardly fashion, except that they apparently learn these spells from nowhere imparticular. Not innatly like a Sorcerer, or from a College or Master like a Wizard. They just don't seem to fit. I could Imagine that if a Sorcerer was raised in poverty and forced to deception and petty tricks to survive he might grow into something similar... Except that his spells would be Charisma based. Or a Hyper specialized Wizard that only couldn't muster enough interest to learn spells of schools other then Illusion and Enchantment, that still was stuck carrying a book, and going to a wizards college. I mean how do you right a back story for such a character that isn't "???" that shall never be resolved or known? It's kind of a sticking point between me and buying that PHB II. I don't get the problem. Beguilers are trained. They are trained in magic by another beguiler. Since there are very specialize in spells(the finite list) they can cast these spells without preparation. As to schools well lets see I can see goverment spy agencies training them, the dragon houses(especialy the two with the Mark of shadow), I can see rogue guilds training them....Hell changeling are natural for this class. Their magic isn't inborn it is trained...if you can fit warmage in you can fit Beguilers.
Tevin Kevlak 02-26-07, 02:32 AM	Well, now you're confusing crunch and fluff. Mechanically yes the Bard and Sorcerer (the innate spellcasters) use charisma for their casting stat. This is not the rule, however. Assassins gain spells much the same way as Sorcerers do. They do not studying magical scrolls or keep spell books and they use intelligence as their primary casting stat. There's nothing stopping you from simply saying beguilers gain their spells the same way as Sorcerers. That's a fluff statement and has nothing to do with any game mechanic. Now, if you're really hung up on Beguilers not using charisma as their casting stat it's a pretty simple fix... change their casting stat to charisma.
Dragom 02-26-07, 02:51 AM	An Assasin must belong to an Assasins guild, it's part of the pre-req's, this kind of leans toward the idea he is "taught" the spells on his spells known list by his fellows and probably involves some time spent in the guilds smallish library of secrets. Crunch and Fluff don't get to part company. One has to lead to the other. Specialized training by House Philarn or Thuranni or by the Black Lanterns do kind of make sense. And it's on a big enough scale to justify a base class rather then a PRC...
Arcane Guyver 02-26-07, 02:54 AM	This might seem like a radical way to integrate the class...but how about making it a racial class for Zil gnomes? Racial, as in: no other race has access to it. Why don't other races have beguilers? Well, gnomes are notorious for keeping secrets...or maybe this class just harnesses their innate racial magic? In this same way you could have Duskblades a racial class for Aerenal elves. Actually, this could be a decent way to introduce new classes without flooding the setting with them...make them very restricted and rare...
johnkretzer 02-26-07, 03:01 AM	This might seem like a radical way to integrate the class...but how about making it a racial class for Zil gnomes? Racial, as in: no other race has access to it. Why don't other races have beguilers? Well, gnomes are notorious for keeping secrets...or maybe this class just harnesses their innate racial magic? In this same way you could have Duskblades a racial class for Aerenal elves. Actually, this could be a decent way to introduce new classes without flooding the setting with them...make them very restricted and rare... Sorry don't see it. Because as it has been stated they learn and study magic. Also gnomes are good with illusion magics not enchantment.
Dragom 02-26-07, 03:09 AM	Or it could be an antiquated form of magic for the Gnomes. Still ocaisionally researched and learned, but abandoned as a dead-end by gnome sosciety at large.
Tevin Kevlak 02-26-07, 03:09 AM	Ok, fine. Favored Soul, spontaneous caster, Wisdom and Charisma for casting, Divine Bard (UA) wisdom and charisma for casting. There's two examples of spontaneous casters who don't just use charisma as their casting stat. If fluff and crunch went hand in hand as you say then any caster who uses charisma for their casting stat would have to derive their spells from the same source, no? If they didn't then any fluff that suggested a characters spell casting ability came from a different source than the sorcerer or bard would not match up with the crunch of charisma as a casting stat and thus be incorrect... as the crunch and/or fluff must lead the other. If the fluff says that charisma based spells come from one's force of will and inbred magical energies then why does the Shugenja use charisma as their casting stat? It clearly states where they derive their casting abilities and it is completely different than the sorcerer or the bard. Not only that but they cast Divine spells using their charisma score. Are divine spells not derived from wisdom? Isn't that what the crunch says?
Dragom 02-26-07, 03:24 AM	Ok, fine. Favored Soul, spontaneous caster, Wisdom and Charisma for casting, Divine Bard (UA) wisdom and charisma for casting. There's two examples of spontaneous casters who don't just use charisma as their casting stat. Divine casters... They fit. Even though Spontanious they are as Divine casters using Wisdom. If fluff and crunch went hand in hand as you say then any caster who uses charisma for their casting stat would have to derive their spells from the same source, no? If they didn't then any fluff that suggested a characters spell casting ability came from a different source than the sorcerer or bard would not match up with the crunch of charisma as a casting stat and thus be incorrect... as the crunch and/or fluff must lead the other. If the fluff says that charisma based spells come from one's force of will and inbred magical energies then why does the Shugenja use charisma as their casting stat? It clearly states where they derive their casting abilities and it is completely different than the sorcerer or the bard. Not only that but they cast Divine spells using their charisma score. Are divine spells not derived from wisdom? Isn't that what the crunch says? The Shujenja cast Divine using Charisma, Eh? Short of either beseaching for each individual spell as it's needed or calling upon a divine power source within ones own body, I confess I don't know how that would work. (Many outsiders have spells common to divine lists that they use as spell-like abilities that are charisma based, these being innate and from within themselves.) Anything about A Holy Spirit, Purity of Body or every spell taking a full round to cast in that description?
Arcane Guyver 02-26-07, 10:08 AM	Sorry don't see it. Because as it has been stated they learn and study magic. Also gnomes are good with illusion magics not enchantment. Yes; that's why they get dancing lights and prestidigitation as spell-like abilities, because they are illusions... What's so hard to believe about this class being not only a gnomish secret, but useless for other races to learn as it requires the caster to be a gnome?
Tevin Kevlak 02-26-07, 02:52 PM	Divine casters... They fit. Even though Spontanious they are as Divine casters using Wisdom. The Shujenja cast Divine using Charisma, Eh? Short of either beseaching for each individual spell as it's needed or calling upon a divine power source within ones own body, I confess I don't know how that would work. (Many outsiders have spells common to divine lists that they use as spell-like abilities that are charisma based, these being innate and from within themselves.) Anything about A Holy Spirit, Purity of Body or every spell taking a full round to cast in that description? Actually the Shugenja casts spells by drawing power from the energies of the world around them and quite clearly wisdom represents ones awareness of their surroundings and yet they use charisma. My point is, it's just a game mechanic, which stat they use, and it will only have as big of an impact on the actual story (ie the fluff) in your game as you let it. And, no most shugenja spells take just as long as regular spells to cast (I'm not saying there aren't any that take full round actions but the majority do not) also, the shugenja does not cast spell-like abilities, they cast full on spells of devine nature based on their charisma score.
johnkretzer 02-26-07, 04:21 PM	Yes; that's why they get dancing lights and prestidigitation as spell-like abilities, because they are illusions... What's so hard to believe about this class being not only a gnomish secret, but useless for other races to learn as it requires the caster to be a gnome? Because of the strong Enchantment magic side of it which is not gnomish in nature. Sure I can see alot of gnome's beguilers but I don't see it as exclusive. That would be like saying... Only Gnomes can be bards because they are good with illusions spells and it is their favored class(hell you could make a better arguement that Bards should be Gnome only then Beguiler).
Just another user 02-26-07, 05:10 PM	I don't even see why he should need to make arguments at all. If he is the GM saying that only gnomes can be beguillers is perfectly reasonable. His world, his choices. Personally I like the idea that some classes, even basic one are availlable only to certain races, it add flavour to the races, if that is what you are searching. Beside, it is magic. Logic and arguments apply only to a point, if you don't like it. just make differently.
johnkretzer 02-26-07, 07:06 PM	I don't even see why he should need to make arguments at all. If he is the GM saying that only gnomes can be beguillers is perfectly reasonable. His world, his choices. Personally I like the idea that some classes, even basic one are availlable only to certain races, it add flavour to the races, if that is what you are searching. Beside, it is magic. Logic and arguments apply only to a point, if you don't like it. just make differently. Because his not the GM. He is just some guy on the forum boards. As am I. He asked why it didn't make sense to me I responded. Is it because you agree with him and disagree with me that you are holding up he is the 'GM'. If he is so why throw your two cents in about you thinking it makes sense. Since obviously you believe only the GM opinions matters? Or is it you just agree with him and couldn't of a reason that a character class that is also powerful in enchantment magic sahould be the exclusively a race who gains no bonus to it. Hey in your game you can break it down so that all the base classes have one race asscociated with it. Go ahead it won't make sense...
The Dreaming Duck 02-26-07, 07:15 PM	Here's what Keith Baker said in his web article on the subject... (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebee/20060911a)
Arcane Guyver 02-26-07, 07:22 PM	Only Gnomes can be bards because they are good with illusions spells and it is their favored class(hell you could make a better arguement that Bards should be Gnome only then Beguiler). Well, I came up with that idea because #1) beguilers are brand new and don't really have a set place in Eberron, unlike bards (who have places in multiple cultures) and #2) it will help limit the class from overshadowing existing character classes I messed around with the idea today a bit, wondering what it'd be like if other expansion classes were hit with these sorts of restrictions (from those shown in PHB2, XPH and CP). * Lurks are changeling/doppelganger-only. * Duskblades are drow-only (thinking about allowing Aereni elves access). * Marshals are Dhakaani-only. * Dragon Shamans are Argonnessen-only. * Warmages are 'Five Nations'-only (as if it's a recent invention from the Last War). * Hexblade is only for worshippers of the Dark six. * Favored Souls are only for worshippers of an individual Sovereign. * Paladins are Silver Flame worshippers only (since we have Divine Mind and Knight around as generic knights & religious champions). But if you don't like that take on it, it's your game. I'm just trying to find a fun medium between "Core only! :rant: " and "Fine, do what you want... :twitch: "
The Dreaming Duck 02-26-07, 07:36 PM	Just to throw another log on the fire, it seems to me that people are suggesting that spontaneous casters don't need to learn their magic - that they're like superheroes or mutants who don't need to study at all to learn their trade. The problem with this? Components. A sorcerer may not need to study a spellbook to prepare his fireball. But unless he's using a variety of feats, he doesn't just point and shoot; the spell has verbal, somatic, and material components. The sorcerer needs to use the same ball of bat guano and sulfur that a wizard would. He needs to perform gestures and incantations that can be identified with Spellcraft, just like those of a wizard. Does a sorcerer just randomly say "Hmm... maybe if I roll some guano and sulfur together and shout some random syllables it will explode?" Does the spell come to him in his sleep? He doesn't use the same methods for preparing his spells as a wizard. He can't prepared the same range of spells as a wizard. But the existence of components suggests to me that a sorcerer must, somehow, LEARN to use his gift, whether that's by working with other sorcerers, wizards, or personal study. As for "Intelligence always means prepared, Charisma always means spontaneous", I'll point out that artificers are essentially spontaneous casters (they do not need to prepare their infusions, and can choose from any spell on the list)... but that Intelligence is their primary casting ability. As a side note, this makes artificers another class where both Charisma and Intelligence are important for their work. In fact, I'd lay odds that this is one reason they DO use Intelligence instead of Charisma... because, from a purely metagame standpoint, it makes life harder for them. Dragom, you're saying that they are unbalanced in comparison to a wizard. But at the end of the day, the one stat a wizard REALLY needs is Intelligence. Dexterity and Constitution are good, but you totally want to min/max your wizard, you want Intelligence. With a beguiler, you're sort of a con artist/illusionist/rogue. So you need Intelligence to use your spells, but if you want to be any good at the con games, you need Charisma, and Dexterity would also be good, and we know Constitution is good for anyone... in other words, like the artificer, it's a little more difficult to min/max your beguiler on a fixed point allowance, because there's so many different things he needs. If Charisma was his casting stat, you could just pour your points into Charisma and get both Bluff and spells with one stat. This doesn't answer the fluff question, but honestly, that just doesn't concern me, and it doesn't seem to bother Hellcow. He suggests both Phiarlan and Zil traditions of beguilers, along with a less formal scattering across Khorvaire. Apparently their work takes an insightful mind as well as a forceful personality... as I said, doesn't bother me.
Wrathamon 02-26-07, 09:20 PM	This doesn't answer the fluff question, but honestly, that just doesn't concern me, and it doesn't seem to bother Hellcow. He suggests both Phiarlan and Zil traditions of beguilers, along with a less formal scattering across Khorvaire. Apparently their work takes an insightful mind as well as a forceful personality... as I said, doesn't bother me. I could see Beguilers being part of the Elven Houses. I could see Gnomes of Zilargo being Beguilers. I could see Changelings learning the art of Beguiling. I could see Religious figures actually being Beguilers and not Clerics. I could see servants of the Lords of Dust being Beguilers I could see agents of the dreaming dark I could even see various cults of the dragon below learning Beguiler magic. I could see any of the Five nations using them... the King's Wands, the Aundair Eyes... I dont see what the problem is with fiting in Beguilers to Eberron. I think they fit perfectly well. They fit the role of shady spellcaster... beguilers are rogue/magic-users.
johnkretzer 02-27-07, 12:12 AM	Well, I came up with that idea because #1) beguilers are brand new and don't really have a set place in Eberron, unlike bards (who have places in multiple cultures) and #2) it will help limit the class from overshadowing existing character classes I messed around with the idea today a bit, wondering what it'd be like if other expansion classes were hit with these sorts of restrictions (from those shown in PHB2, XPH and CP). * Lurks are changeling/doppelganger-only. * Duskblades are drow-only (thinking about allowing Aereni elves access). * Marshals are Dhakaani-only. * Dragon Shamans are Argonnessen-only. * Warmages are 'Five Nations'-only (as if it's a recent invention from the Last War). * Hexblade is only for worshippers of the Dark six. * Favored Souls are only for worshippers of an individual Sovereign. * Paladins are Silver Flame worshippers only (since we have Divine Mind and Knight around as generic knights & religious champions). But if you don't like that take on it, it's your game. I'm just trying to find a fun medium between "Core only! :rant: " and "Fine, do what you want... :twitch: " Interesting points :) Though I don't think any new classes overshadow any class really. Also swashbucklers are 'brand new' but seemed to have always fit, I veiw Beguilers the same way or the knight and most of the others. Also you put forth a idea I am just expressing my thoughts on it and giving people a counterpoint to your idea. No insult intended. I agree with you Dragon Shamen should only be Seren or a very good background. Why can't inpired or kalashatar be Lurks? Or anyone with psionic potential? I dislike Marshal but why only Dhakaani? I mean as you have stated the entire continent was at war? Again why are warmages only Five nations everybody fought in the war? Favoured souls in in another thread. Paladin od only the siler flame bother me beause what is so holy about the flame?(especialy since it is 1/3 evil? Also you can play a paladin of a concept in Eberron. Also Paladin isn't new. Again i am just asking why these things work this way? I disagree with them and if a DM did this I would ask him why? So look at this as just formulating your ideas better. Edit:Oh I forgot the DuskBlade and the Hexblade... Duskblade seems to me be a elven tradition why didn't the elves that settle onto Khovaire teach it to humans or anyother race? Hexblade why connect it to a religion when it isn't a religionist class?
Dragom 02-27-07, 12:58 AM	True the classes could be race, region and culturaly specific, but they would kind of have to bleed out into the other races, regions and cultures after a few hundred years. I mean secrets are important to keep but no one keeps them that well. Not even the Trust.
Arcane Guyver 02-27-07, 01:26 AM	Interesting points :) Though I don't think any new classes overshadow any class really. Well, most of the classes don't overshadow others mechanically...it's more of a thematic thing. I would prefer there be a core set of classes (somewhere around 20) that are prevalent, and then a number of other classes that just sort of exist here and there. Sort of like 'extra options'...think of it not as restrictions, but bonuses for certain races/religions. Basically, I'd like to keep evokers and illusionists as being more common than beguilers and warmages. Why can't inpired or kalashatar be Lurks? Or anyone with psionic potential? I'd explain this as an aspect of the strange psionic background of doppelgangers (and, by extension, changelings). Their unique duplitous mindset makes this class possible. I dislike Marshal but why only Dhakaani? I mean as you have stated the entire continent was at war? I'd like the Dhakaan to have some unique way of keeping their ranks organized. Of all the restrictions brought up, this is the easily weakest one. Again why are warmages only Five nations everybody fought in the war? I figure only the Five Nations put together special academies for warmage training. Note this isn't much of a restriction, as any race could have taken part in this training. I just don't see the Mror Holds, Talenta Plains, or even Zilargo specially training specifically for war magic. Paladin od only the siler flame bother me beause what is so holy about the flame?(especialy since it is 1/3 evil? Also you can play a paladin of a concept in Eberron. Also Paladin isn't new. I figured this would be the most controversial change. One thing that's bugged me is how many 'paladin replacement' classes have been released so far. Crusaders, Divine Minds, Soulborn...all of them sort of trample the 'aligned warrior' concept and do it slightly differently. As it stands, the Paladin, for good or ill, is heavily associated with the Silver Flame in Eberron. And as it's such a niche class (one alignment, turns undead, summons a bloody horse), I thought it might be nice to relegate it to being the champion of one specific religion, while the Divine Mind and Knight are used for other honorable/religious warriors out there. Duskblade seems to me be a elven tradition why didn't the elves that settle onto Khovaire teach it to humans or anyother race? I'd like this to be an exotic class, and the fact that drow have innate magical abilities (and the fact this class is rather strong, at least in early levels) it seems like a fun fit. On the other hand, it could just be a very ancient magi-warrior tradition that dates back to the Age of Giants, and only the drow and the Aereni remember it (and keep it secret from non-elves). Hexblade why connect it to a religion when it isn't a religionist class? Like everything else here, personal preference. Especially with the 'Dark Companion' class feature (from PHB2), it really evokes a nice sense of ambiguity IMO. Another reason this is the way it is is that I've tried to give as many religions a unique 'champion' class. Still don't have one for the Blood, Undying Court, or Path of Light, though. None of this is set in stone, obviously...I'm just looking for a different way to integrate new stuff in without cluttering the system too badly. Sure, you could make it so anyone can be a beguiler - but if it's limited to a certain demographic, it makes the class a bit more special and unique, IMO.
ArcTan 02-27-07, 01:40 AM	I figured this would be the most controversial change. One thing that's bugged me is how many 'paladin replacement' classes have been released so far. Crusaders, Divine Minds, Soulborn...all of them sort of trample the 'aligned warrior' concept and do it slightly differently. As it stands, the Paladin, for good or ill, is heavily associated with the Silver Flame in Eberron. And as it's such a niche class (one alignment, turns undead, summons a bloody horse), I thought it might be nice to relegate it to being the champion of one specific religion, while the Divine Mind and Knight are used for other honorable/religious warriors out there. Well, the CotSF is associated with Paladins because the Voice of the Flame, Tira Miron, was a Paladin before she joined the Flame, and hence before the Flame existed. Specifically, she was a Paladin of Dol Arrah.
Arcane Guyver 02-27-07, 02:03 AM	Well, the CotSF is associated with Paladins because the Voice of the Flame, Tira Miron, was a Paladin before she joined the Flame, and hence before the Flame existed. Specifically, she was a Paladin of Dol Arrah. Eh, right. I was thinking more like 'associated in the general consciousness of the Eberron community.' How many paladins have been used in Eberron publications, and of that number, how many have been Silver Flame paladins? But you do have a point, as I forgot about that origin story. Well, whatever. It was a fun idea while it lasted.
johnkretzer 02-27-07, 01:02 PM	Well, most of the classes don't overshadow others mechanically...it's more of a thematic thing. I would prefer there be a core set of classes (somewhere around 20) that are prevalent, and then a number of other classes that just sort of exist here and there. Sort of like 'extra options'...think of it not as restrictions, but bonuses for certain races/religions. Basically, I'd like to keep evokers and illusionists as being more common than beguilers and warmages. I'd explain this as an aspect of the strange psionic background of doppelgangers (and, by extension, changelings). Their unique duplitous mindset makes this class possible. I'd like the Dhakaan to have some unique way of keeping their ranks organized. Of all the restrictions brought up, this is the easily weakest one. I figure only the Five Nations put together special academies for warmage training. Note this isn't much of a restriction, as any race could have taken part in this training. I just don't see the Mror Holds, Talenta Plains, or even Zilargo specially training specifically for war magic. I figured this would be the most controversial change. One thing that's bugged me is how many 'paladin replacement' classes have been released so far. Crusaders, Divine Minds, Soulborn...all of them sort of trample the 'aligned warrior' concept and do it slightly differently. As it stands, the Paladin, for good or ill, is heavily associated with the Silver Flame in Eberron. And as it's such a niche class (one alignment, turns undead, summons a bloody horse), I thought it might be nice to relegate it to being the champion of one specific religion, while the Divine Mind and Knight are used for other honorable/religious warriors out there. I'd like this to be an exotic class, and the fact that drow have innate magical abilities (and the fact this class is rather strong, at least in early levels) it seems like a fun fit. On the other hand, it could just be a very ancient magi-warrior tradition that dates back to the Age of Giants, and only the drow and the Aereni remember it (and keep it secret from non-elves). Like everything else here, personal preference. Especially with the 'Dark Companion' class feature (from PHB2), it really evokes a nice sense of ambiguity IMO. Another reason this is the way it is is that I've tried to give as many religions a unique 'champion' class. Still don't have one for the Blood, Undying Court, or Path of Light, though. None of this is set in stone, obviously...I'm just looking for a different way to integrate new stuff in without cluttering the system too badly. Sure, you could make it so anyone can be a beguiler - but if it's limited to a certain demographic, it makes the class a bit more special and unique, IMO. I don't usualy like it when things are racial as class(I was so happy when you could get a class and a racial combo that fly in the face of normal convention). Also I don't mind the cultural aspects...sure I can see that. Though it is always possible to break it. Especialy with changelings in the game. For instance I do have restriction on where you were born. I mean artificers among drow or the Seren barbarians are unheard of for the most part. But I would allow a drow or Seren artificer if the player wrote a background explaining it. I guess my reaction is based on demographics. In any game I run people who become adventures already are breaking the mold so it isn't that big to me that they are doing it with class choices. All your reasons are sound(well except for racial restrictions and paladin) but I look at this stuff as a common rule. I.E. if you want to say all beguilers are gnomes. That is true for the 99.99% of the population of beguilers, but a player can be of that .01% that is the exception. In other ways if you want to break the saterotypes you can but give me a background as to how. Your rule isn't bad just don't make it so ironclad. Does that make any sort of sense? You are right maybe the Marshal class was invented by the hobgoblins but why can't a human learn it...or the warmage...sure all the colleges are in one of the five(well four nations as I doubt people are going Crye-U) but that doesn't prevent during the war a warwizard from Aundair rebeling with the Eldden Reaches and teaching people there warmage. The duskblade is only for the Arenal elves and drow but what to keep them teaching other races? I mean I am not saying you are wrong here but just because a player takes a class doesn't mean it is common...I have alloed a player though study and training invent a class that there are the only ones to have it. There isn't wrong with this approach either. A quick notes of paladins...we propably have different veiws here. I have always veiwed a paladin as being born not trained. it doesn't matter what god he chooses he will be a paladin. He doesn't even have to choose a god and he will be still a paladin. That is how I veiw them.
Arcane Guyver 02-27-07, 02:07 PM	I'm probably ditching this idea anyways (kind of my hobby, ****ing around with the game rules), but I guess I left one thing unsaid - there are always exceptions (with a good enough backstory). Maybe it's just me, but I like rules and limitations...you know how far you can take something within the set boundaries. I like restrictions, as it gives me something to work around. What I don't like is saying "Ok, everything in the core books, plus these 20+ splatbooks is available. If you see any restrictions on race or culture, ignore it...just come up with whatever you like, I'll make it fit." Something about that just rubs me wrong. PCs may be exceptions to world's rules, but at what point do they cease to feel like they're actually part of the world? Also, with the unfortunate exception of the Paladin, I only restricted expanded options...IMHO, the ability to use stuff above and beyond the core rules should be an 'extra.' The DM may say certain things are 'core,' and everything else is either banned or allowed with restrictions. IE, "Sure you can take 'Divine Metamagic,' but you can't apply it to 'Permanent Spell' or 'Quicken Spell.'" But, as I said, I'm dropping this idea for now. I'm in mid-campaign right now, not going to change the rules on the players (though it wouldn't really affect them as of right now).
Wrathamon 02-27-07, 04:43 PM	I agree with John... attaching racial and cultural restrictions on core classes takes away something from the player creating an interesting character. I think it is fine as a suggestion but not a limitation.
johnkretzer 02-28-07, 12:49 AM	I'm probably ditching this idea anyways (kind of my hobby, ****ing around with the game rules), but I guess I left one thing unsaid - there are always exceptions (with a good enough backstory). Maybe it's just me, but I like rules and limitations...you know how far you can take something within the set boundaries. I like restrictions, as it gives me something to work around. What I don't like is saying "Ok, everything in the core books, plus these 20+ splatbooks is available. If you see any restrictions on race or culture, ignore it...just come up with whatever you like, I'll make it fit." Something about that just rubs me wrong. PCs may be exceptions to world's rules, but at what point do they cease to feel like they're actually part of the world? Also, with the unfortunate exception of the Paladin, I only restricted expanded options...IMHO, the ability to use stuff above and beyond the core rules should be an 'extra.' The DM may say certain things are 'core,' and everything else is either banned or allowed with restrictions. IE, "Sure you can take 'Divine Metamagic,' but you can't apply it to 'Permanent Spell' or 'Quicken Spell.'" But, as I said, I'm dropping this idea for now. I'm in mid-campaign right now, not going to change the rules on the players (though it wouldn't really affect them as of right now). Hey I not saying it is a bad idea. Actualy having these limitions is a good idea because they create a better world. If you just included there can be exceptions I would propably expanded on your ideas not tewar them down,;) And hey the rule are meant to be tinkered with....but it is also a good idea to get others opinions on it when you. That is the nice thing about these boards you can get constuctive feedback. I also like to get feedback from my players. And what your players don't like it when you changed the rules in mid-game. ;)
Arcane Guyver 02-28-07, 01:17 AM	And what your players don't like it when you changed the rules in mid-game. ;) That's an understatement! Recently I told everyone that they can, instead of rolling hit points, take half HD+1 every level after 1st. Despite the fact this HELPED the party (everyone...I mean EVERYONE rolled like **** for hit points), they looked at me like I off-handedly decided to warp their characters into Forgotten Realms. The following smilies accurately protrays the four reactions I got: :eek: :confused: :weep: :twitch:
Cromag 02-28-07, 01:20 AM	Eh, right. I was thinking more like 'associated in the general consciousness of the Eberron community.' How many paladins have been used in Eberron publications, and of that number, how many have been Silver Flame paladins? But you do have a point, as I forgot about that origin story. Well, whatever. It was a fun idea while it lasted. The lost mark series of books an eberron trilogy had 6 paladins of the silver flame.
Wrathamon 02-28-07, 03:41 PM	:twitch: That is what my group does when I say 25 point buy 2/3rd hit dice for hitpoints.