Bugbears [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

Bugbears [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
tenguroEd
07-08-07, 01:13 AM I was looking at Bugbears in the MM, and it says they're favored class is rogue. This got me thinking after looking at they're ability adjustments, wouldn't it make sense that they're favored class is a melee class? thoughts are always welcomed by me.
Rerecros
07-08-07, 01:21 AM What make you think rogues aren't a melee class?
Just because they don't have full BAB?
A fighter can just as easly dump strength and become a light armored archer.
ArcTan
07-08-07, 01:33 AM Variation, basically. There's no reason that every race that has Favored Class: Rogue has to be optimized to be a Rogue. It'd be boring if it worked that way. (I mean, FWIW, I'm convinced Elves make better Rogues than Wizards.)

Although in Eberron, specifically, Dhakaani Bugbears raised in the culture of the Dhakaani Clans have Favored Class: Barbarian instead -- this represents the more disciplined, martial nature of Bugbears in Dhakaan as opposed to the degenerate sneaks and backstabbers they've become elsewhere.
Alex_
07-08-07, 01:52 AM Although Bugbears are physically strong, they're still stealthy creatures and prefer to ambush or sneak up on their prey/enemies as opposed to just crashing into battle. Once in combat, however, they make fierce melee combatants.

From a pure game mechanics standpoint, melee Rogues are superior in terms of damage to ranged ones, and quite possibly superior to Rangers and Fighters. Sure you don't have that high base attack bonus, but you get Sneak Attack damage. You don't have to Sneak Attack with a dagger or shortsword. You can do it with a greatsword of dire flail as well.

A Bugbear melee Rogue benefits from bonuses to Strength that offsets the 3/4 BAB and gives bonus damage. Since they'll be using full round actions to make multiple attacks for maximum Sneak Attack damage (every hit gets SA independently) they need high AC and HP, which their bonuses to Dexterity and Constitution also help with. Darkvision also allows them to strike in pure darkness, where the target is denied their dex bonus due to blindness, or in shadows where concealment would be granted, possibly negating Sneak Attacks.
Neutronium_Dragon
07-08-07, 10:18 AM While they might be physically suited to melee classes, the typical bugbear in the core prefers stealth and ambush tactics whenever possible, something which is better described by Rogue than by Fighter or Barbarian.

That doesn't mean that a bugbear might not have warrior classes too; it just means that they can splash a few Rogue levels in (for better ambushing) without having multiclassing issues.
Logos7
07-08-07, 12:16 PM that and that fat +4 to move silently is like a predisposition to stabing people in the back.

Logos
Werebat
07-08-07, 04:16 PM I was looking at Bugbears in the MM, and it says they're favored class is rogue. This got me thinking after looking at they're ability adjustments, wouldn't it make sense that they're favored class is a melee class? thoughts are always welcomed by me.

Bugbears are shock troopers, best built as barbarian/rogues. They stalk their target, sneak up on him, and BAM!!! Enraged sneak attack!

They're the classic boogeymen, the thing lurking in the darkness that jumps out at you to startle and inflict massive damage.

- Ron ^*^
ZappoHisbane
07-08-07, 04:43 PM Although in Eberron, specifically, Dhakaani Bugbears raised in the culture of the Dhakaani Clans have Favored Class: Barbarian instead -- this represents the more disciplined, martial nature of Bugbears in Dhakaan as opposed to the degenerate sneaks and backstabbers they've become elsewhere.

This is the first time I've ever heard of Barbarians being disciplined. Unless of course we're talking about a different kind of discipline... :P
kentonblack
07-08-07, 06:54 PM well, think of focused rage, not reckless frenzy.

some of my most lucent moments in life are when everything has been shaded red
Fabius Maximus
07-08-07, 08:50 PM Bugbears are shock troopers, best built as barbarian/rogues. They stalk their target, sneak up on him, and BAM!!! Enraged sneak attack!

They're the classic boogeymen, the thing lurking in the darkness that jumps out at you to startle and inflict massive damage.

- Ron ^*^
Only that shock troopers are in the vanguard of a full-scale assault, leading the charge through the enemy's lines.

What you described is an ambush. Not that bugbears wouldn't be good at that, too...
Symar
07-08-07, 09:02 PM Bugbears ambush ALL THE TIME in DDO. It's pretty annoying, actually. Not that DDO is anything to base your game off of, though, but it is a fairly accurate protrayal (of bugbears, I mean).
Werebat
07-08-07, 09:33 PM Only that shock troopers are in the vanguard of a full-scale assault, leading the charge through the enemy's lines.

What you described is an ambush. Not that bugbears wouldn't be good at that, too...

There would be little difference, I think, between the vanguard of a full-scale assault and an ambush... if the assailants were goblinoids.

- Ron ^*^
ArcTan
07-09-07, 12:30 AM well, think of focused rage, not reckless frenzy.

some of my most lucent moments in life are when everything has been shaded red

Exactly. Dhakaani Bugbears' Barbarian Rage is the result of specialized training to enter a heightened mental and physical state, *not* just blind fury.
Werebat
07-12-07, 07:27 PM Exactly. Dhakaani Bugbears' Barbarian Rage is the result of specialized training to enter a heightened mental and physical state, *not* just blind fury.

Which would explain why Bugbear barbarians in Eberron don't have to be Chaotic, right?

- Ron ^*^
yrogerg
07-12-07, 08:34 PM I was looking at Bugbears in the MM, and it says they're favored class is rogue. This got me thinking after looking at they're ability adjustments, wouldn't it make sense that they're favored class is a melee class? thoughts are always welcomed by me.

Keep in mind that the only benefits that Favored Class offer only kick in if a character multiclasses. Thus, Favored Class: Rogue just means that Bugbears are likely to have a level or two of rogue, or, even as rogue primaries, are likely to mix rogue abilities with a level or two of another (likely Front-line) class.

When you think about Favored Class this way, it makes a lot more sense.
yrogerg
07-12-07, 08:35 PM Although in Eberron, specifically, Dhakaani Bugbears raised in the culture of the Dhakaani Clans have Favored Class: Barbarian instead -- this represents the more disciplined, martial nature of Bugbears in Dhakaan as opposed to the degenerate sneaks and backstabbers they've become elsewhere.

Where is this? I don't remember reading it.
ArcTan
07-14-07, 01:50 AM Where is this? I don't remember reading it.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20040816a

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
tenguroEd 07-08-07, 01:13 AM	I was looking at Bugbears in the MM, and it says they're favored class is rogue. This got me thinking after looking at they're ability adjustments, wouldn't it make sense that they're favored class is a melee class? thoughts are always welcomed by me.
Rerecros 07-08-07, 01:21 AM	What make you think rogues aren't a melee class? Just because they don't have full BAB? A fighter can just as easly dump strength and become a light armored archer.
ArcTan 07-08-07, 01:33 AM	Variation, basically. There's no reason that every race that has Favored Class: Rogue has to be optimized to be a Rogue. It'd be boring if it worked that way. (I mean, FWIW, I'm convinced Elves make better Rogues than Wizards.) Although in Eberron, specifically, Dhakaani Bugbears raised in the culture of the Dhakaani Clans have Favored Class: Barbarian instead -- this represents the more disciplined, martial nature of Bugbears in Dhakaan as opposed to the degenerate sneaks and backstabbers they've become elsewhere.
Alex_ 07-08-07, 01:52 AM	Although Bugbears are physically strong, they're still stealthy creatures and prefer to ambush or sneak up on their prey/enemies as opposed to just crashing into battle. Once in combat, however, they make fierce melee combatants. From a pure game mechanics standpoint, melee Rogues are superior in terms of damage to ranged ones, and quite possibly superior to Rangers and Fighters. Sure you don't have that high base attack bonus, but you get Sneak Attack damage. You don't have to Sneak Attack with a dagger or shortsword. You can do it with a greatsword of dire flail as well. A Bugbear melee Rogue benefits from bonuses to Strength that offsets the 3/4 BAB and gives bonus damage. Since they'll be using full round actions to make multiple attacks for maximum Sneak Attack damage (every hit gets SA independently) they need high AC and HP, which their bonuses to Dexterity and Constitution also help with. Darkvision also allows them to strike in pure darkness, where the target is denied their dex bonus due to blindness, or in shadows where concealment would be granted, possibly negating Sneak Attacks.
Neutronium_Dragon 07-08-07, 10:18 AM	While they might be physically suited to melee classes, the typical bugbear in the core prefers stealth and ambush tactics whenever possible, something which is better described by Rogue than by Fighter or Barbarian. That doesn't mean that a bugbear might not have warrior classes too; it just means that they can splash a few Rogue levels in (for better ambushing) without having multiclassing issues.
Logos7 07-08-07, 12:16 PM	that and that fat +4 to move silently is like a predisposition to stabing people in the back. Logos
Werebat 07-08-07, 04:16 PM	I was looking at Bugbears in the MM, and it says they're favored class is rogue. This got me thinking after looking at they're ability adjustments, wouldn't it make sense that they're favored class is a melee class? thoughts are always welcomed by me. Bugbears are shock troopers, best built as barbarian/rogues. They stalk their target, sneak up on him, and BAM!!! Enraged sneak attack! They're the classic boogeymen, the thing lurking in the darkness that jumps out at you to startle and inflict massive damage. - Ron ^*^
ZappoHisbane 07-08-07, 04:43 PM	Although in Eberron, specifically, Dhakaani Bugbears raised in the culture of the Dhakaani Clans have Favored Class: Barbarian instead -- this represents the more disciplined, martial nature of Bugbears in Dhakaan as opposed to the degenerate sneaks and backstabbers they've become elsewhere. This is the first time I've ever heard of Barbarians being disciplined. Unless of course we're talking about a different kind of discipline... :P
kentonblack 07-08-07, 06:54 PM	well, think of focused rage, not reckless frenzy. some of my most lucent moments in life are when everything has been shaded red
Fabius Maximus 07-08-07, 08:50 PM	Bugbears are shock troopers, best built as barbarian/rogues. They stalk their target, sneak up on him, and BAM!!! Enraged sneak attack! They're the classic boogeymen, the thing lurking in the darkness that jumps out at you to startle and inflict massive damage. - Ron ^*^ Only that shock troopers are in the vanguard of a full-scale assault, leading the charge through the enemy's lines. What you described is an ambush. Not that bugbears wouldn't be good at that, too...
Symar 07-08-07, 09:02 PM	Bugbears ambush ALL THE TIME in DDO. It's pretty annoying, actually. Not that DDO is anything to base your game off of, though, but it is a fairly accurate protrayal (of bugbears, I mean).
Werebat 07-08-07, 09:33 PM	Only that shock troopers are in the vanguard of a full-scale assault, leading the charge through the enemy's lines. What you described is an ambush. Not that bugbears wouldn't be good at that, too... There would be little difference, I think, between the vanguard of a full-scale assault and an ambush... if the assailants were goblinoids. - Ron ^*^
ArcTan 07-09-07, 12:30 AM	well, think of focused rage, not reckless frenzy. some of my most lucent moments in life are when everything has been shaded red Exactly. Dhakaani Bugbears' Barbarian Rage is the result of specialized training to enter a heightened mental and physical state, not just blind fury.
Werebat 07-12-07, 07:27 PM	Exactly. Dhakaani Bugbears' Barbarian Rage is the result of specialized training to enter a heightened mental and physical state, not just blind fury. Which would explain why Bugbear barbarians in Eberron don't have to be Chaotic, right? - Ron ^*^
yrogerg 07-12-07, 08:34 PM	I was looking at Bugbears in the MM, and it says they're favored class is rogue. This got me thinking after looking at they're ability adjustments, wouldn't it make sense that they're favored class is a melee class? thoughts are always welcomed by me. Keep in mind that the only benefits that Favored Class offer only kick in if a character multiclasses. Thus, Favored Class: Rogue just means that Bugbears are likely to have a level or two of rogue, or, even as rogue primaries, are likely to mix rogue abilities with a level or two of another (likely Front-line) class. When you think about Favored Class this way, it makes a lot more sense.
yrogerg 07-12-07, 08:35 PM	Although in Eberron, specifically, Dhakaani Bugbears raised in the culture of the Dhakaani Clans have Favored Class: Barbarian instead -- this represents the more disciplined, martial nature of Bugbears in Dhakaan as opposed to the degenerate sneaks and backstabbers they've become elsewhere. Where is this? I don't remember reading it.
ArcTan 07-14-07, 01:50 AM	Where is this? I don't remember reading it. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20040816a