Post/Author/DateTime	Post
troysandlin 11-15-07, 12:39 AM	I may be overlooking something but everything I've read about Warforged says that once they go below zero hit points they become inanimate. If they stabalize at say -5 do they just lay there until an artificer comes along and heals him? What if one doesn't come along for a few years? 10, 20, 100 years go by and a couple of repair spells later he's a stranger in a strange land? What if he's damaged to below -10? Does that mean he's beyond repair? What if a warforged leads a less adventurous life and never sufferes any damage? Would he really live forever? Or maybe "rust out" at some point? No "power cell" to run out. Just some things I've been wondering.
Kreistor2 11-15-07, 02:18 AM	That's entirely up to the DM. Some DM's might say they are immortal, while others may feel they merely haven't had long enough to determine if they have the equivalent of natural death from wear and tear. There is no right answer.
skrap-san 11-15-07, 02:47 AM	Personally I would say a few hundred years, approximately as long as a dwarf. Due to certain broken parts that would be to worn over time and irreplaceable. For a good story device I assume that inanimate robots is in a sort of pause mode, that means that a warforged can deduct the time being below 0 from time lived. Now a warforged with below -10 is dead and you need to use a resurrection spell to get it up and walking again. But a warforged has no memories of a afterlife, so that too is up for discussion.
Gurv 11-15-07, 04:00 AM	You didn't misread anything. A warforged dropped to -5 hit points becomes disabled. It actually doesn't have to stabilize, because inert warforged do not lose additional hit points. They remain inert until someone does something to bring them back to 0 or more hit points. There is no limit on how long they can remain inert. Being revived after a long period of inactivity is actually one of the most common backstories for warforged characters. Below -10 hit points? Yes. Everyone is beyond repair at -10. That's "dead". According to the rules, warforged have no maximum age limit. Although they do say that a warforged of 150 years or older becomes middle aged, no warforged have reached that age yet. There is no reason to believe they die of old age. According to the rules, they are immortal.
Nerdicus 11-15-07, 11:51 AM	I personally have thought of this one myself and have decided that in my campaigns, the wargforged with the strongest spirit can live the longest. So in hundreds of thouseands of years there still might be a few of the toughest warforged around(like the LoBster?) and they would be sooooo powerful.
BlackDragon71425 11-15-07, 02:36 PM	In one of the books, I can't remember which, they say that the warforged's body eventually wears out over time, but I think ur right about the staying inanimate for years if they drop below 0hp.
larry_the_titan 11-15-07, 03:13 PM	Last time I checked standard magical Items don't wear out. Warforged are simular in that aspect. Over time they might degrade to some lower functioning but they could easily be repaired and sent right back out by the right person any time.
Lord_Zzyzx 11-15-07, 05:57 PM	Personally I would say a few hundred years, approximately as long as a dwarf. Due to certain broken parts that would be to worn over time and irreplaceable. You may want to be careful with this line of thinking. There was a hottly debated thread a few months ago related to wear on a WF as it relates to fatigue and running. If you limit the WF's longevity based on broken parts/wear and tear, you may be in contravention to the "WF don't fatigue" rule. Ditching this rule, which is your perogative, invites questions about the effects of fatiguing spells or abilities.
skrap-san 11-15-07, 06:14 PM	That is true, but I was not thinking of small bits and pieces, I’m talking about the very core parts that contains the warforgeds consciousness and mind (would say soul if I believed they had one). Now this part I see as irreplaceable and as I see it, it would degenerate over time, just like a computers CPU if you will. All other parts are changeable in my book. And by that logic the inanimate warforged can live forever.
Edymnion 11-15-07, 07:47 PM	Yes, Warforged do wear down over time. Hence, they get to middle age, where they take penalties on their physical stats. Thats wear and tear. But they don't advance beyond that level. Yes, they are basically immortal unless actually killed. For those that want to go the wear and tear level, what is the lifespan of a stone golem? What about an iron golem? Both of those are constructs that move and would have wear and tear, do we want to say they have a finite limit on how long they last? If so, might want to rethink any game you run that has golems guarding long lost locations, since they would have "broken down" from wear and tear long before the PCs got there.
Nived 11-15-07, 08:37 PM	They clearly have a lifespan (if it is indeed limited), that spans hundreds of years. As the official timeline doesn't seem to be moving it seems that 99.9 percent of the time it really isn't going to matter. As it stands right now there is no answer, its one of the "Great Mysteries of Eberron," like "What caused the Mourning?", "Who is the Lord of Blades?", "Why are humanoids being marked by the Prophecy?", "Was that hooker in Sharn a changeling dude?" Not saying leaves open the possibility of finding an anchient 'true' (Not Quori Craft) Warforged in Xen'drik still alive. Though some DMs might like the idea that Warforged have a shelf life, leaving open the possibility for stories like Blade Runner or Vivi from FFIX (as much as I generally distain comparing Eberron to Final Fantasy in any way). Personally I'd be weary to let them be functionally immortal, as living things (they have organic 'rootlike' parts) eventually the ravages of time will 'kill' them. They'll live longer than the elves, but eventually they'll die.
skrap-san 11-16-07, 02:19 AM	I'll agree with Lord_Zzyzx and agrees that setting the age for just a few hundred years might be stupid. To Edymnion the part I'm talking about is the "brain" of the warforged, not the general body. I also agree with Nived, don't know how old i would want to make them finally ending up, but considering the fact that my group changes chars long before it matters makes it a no stress matter. But the two main reasons I don't want to make them immortal are: A) The fact that they fear death. I want death to be as great a motivation to a comoner warforged as it is for a adventuring one. B) The fact that the DMG question the reasons for turning elves immortal, i know it is a different context, but i feel strongly against making it possible to live forever just based on your race. But I do respect others opinions about warforged living forever, I just want it in my campaign.
OctaviusIII 11-16-07, 02:43 AM	I'm of the school that warforged are immortal, in part because it makes their reappearance that much more monumental. The sum of their patience, resilience and longevity would make them potentially the great race of a future Eberron. The long-sightedness of a warforged counselor would be sought by kings; the wisdom of an ancient order of warforged monks will be highly prized by those the order chooses to teach... And here we are now, at infancy of this new people! Only the Deathless and the dragons could match their potential power and strength. I think their immortality is the most exciting part about the warforged.
loseth 11-16-07, 03:03 AM	Of course, novels aren't canon, but in Flight of the Dying Sun, it is mentioned that warforged are effectively immortal.
Edymnion 11-16-07, 06:14 PM	But the two main reasons I don't want to make them immortal are: A) The fact that they fear death. I want death to be as great a motivation to a comoner warforged as it is for a adventuring one. I would think that immortality would make them fear death more than a mortal would. Not that I typically play it to where they fear death at all, but they don't have the inevitability of death hanging over their heads like we do. We might fear death, but we know that one day we all must die, so at some level, we accept our own deaths. The Warforged don't necessarily have to die, hence they have far more to lose by doing so. It also goes well with making the WF into poweful members of the Blood of Vol. As an immortal race, they are essentially exactly what the BoV hopes to become. Funny as it sounds, but I would expect to find BoV Renegade Mastermakers more common than any other.
Kreistor2 11-16-07, 07:42 PM	I would think that immortality would make them fear death more than a mortal would. Not that I typically play it to where they fear death at all, but they don't have the inevitability of death hanging over their heads like we do. We might fear death, but we know that one day we all must die, so at some level, we accept our own deaths. The Warforged don't necessarily have to die, hence they have far more to lose by doing so. Given that the oldest warforged in Eberron is 30-something, is it appropriate for anyone in Eberron to have come to the conclusion that Warforged are immortal? There's a difference between hoping you're immortal and knowing you are. What evidence does anyone in Eberron have that warforged are immortal? It's a theory that they are immortal, not an absolute. given that we're talking about a world where Frankenstein's monster can pop out of any eldritch machine, trusting to some magi-tek theory is questionable at best.
Lord_Zzyzx 11-16-07, 10:46 PM	Piggy backing off Kreistor2 . . . there are pyschological implications of not knowing. Do they prepare for death. Make wills. Plan to pass on to other generations. Who are their heirs (as they are incapable of reproduction?) etc. etc. Or, do they horde like dragons? Or as previously mentioned seek spiritual perfection that could take centuries. There are some very exciting role playing opportunities here.
skrap-san 11-17-07, 02:43 AM	One of my players is a warforged necromancer3/warforged paragon1. In short he is a necromancer because of his curiosity about death etc. Now I think that I will playing it as it is written, no one really knows. This in my opinion gives more interesting roleplaying (which this is all about). Hmmm think I might have to change my signature to "the boards actually made me switch opinions." Ah well I take it as a proof that democracy works or something.
RedRider 11-17-07, 06:44 AM	But the two main reasons I don't want to make them immortal are: A) The fact that they fear death. I want death to be as great a motivation to a comoner warforged as it is for a adventuring one.I don't know if there is such a thing as a commoner warforged, given the fact they were all built to fight wars and are almost universally mistrusted. Heck, even one who just wants to be an average Joe tilling the fields on his farm is distinguished by his uniqueness. And I think not fearing a mortal death, or to be more general, not knowing if you should fear a mortal death, makes them more interesting and alien. Can people really relate to someone who doesn't need to preserve their legacy because they'll live forever? (And as Edy noted, being immortal, it raises the stakes in terms of untimely death. A human might lose seventy-odd years, a warforged could lose countless eons.) B) The fact that the DMG question the reasons for turning elves immortal, i know it is a different context, but i feel strongly against making it possible to live forever just based on your race. What specifically? If I recall correctly, the DMG points out that Elves could simply out-breed everyone if they lived forever, unless there was something that killed them off on a regular basis like, say, eternal war with the orcs. In the case of the warforged, death by misadventure or accident could eventually kill all of them off unless someone is willing and able to churn out more from the creation forges. (Even then, we face the unknown question of where their souls come from. If it's drawing on some kind of well of life energy like the Umbra or the souls of Dol Urruth, what happens when the well runs dry?) Even if more warforged could be produced, potentially keeping the race alive until the end of time... wouldn't that be an interesting scenario? The history of Eberron is full of upheavals and momentous events. The possibility of future events can drive campaigns. If the warforged could out breed everyone else and take over the world, then maybe that's what your PCs could set out to prevent. Or cause! Or control and use according to their own views... What if some of the warforged built within your PC's lifetimes will watch as the stars in the heavens burn out and the universe winds down? That's something unique and special.
Rekko 11-17-07, 10:01 AM	I encouraged every one of you to watch the movie 'Bicentennial Man' (1999) with Robin Williams as the android who wants to become human. It can give great ideas for Reforged characters, but can also help to answer the question of this thread. Personally, I like the idea of slow erosion and that the power core slowly faints. One can repair those on-going damages, but eventually it will be the fatigued of the mind/soul that will want to leave the mortal realm that makes the warforged die 'naturally'. A warforged can always be repaired with a successful craft check. The DC becomes higher when the damage dealt is more serious. Repair Spells can give a circumstance bonus to the repair check depending on the level of the spell.
gensuke626 11-17-07, 07:08 PM	You know...I'm curious about how warforged would be affected by something like Mortality...I mean...if you ran a game several hundred years in the future (Maybe 4-5) What kind of effect would it have on the world, if Eberron's oldest warforged suddenly just keeled over due to "Natural Causes"? Heck...you don't even need to advance the timeline...that could be a story in an of itself. The World's oldest know Warforged dies and all the Inquisitives and Artificers deem it to be of natural causes...and suddenly all the warforged that are as old as he was begin to panic...
Nived 11-18-07, 12:19 AM	You'd get Blade Runner.
Dragoloth 11-18-07, 11:38 AM	I like to think of them as immortal, but could argue for either side. They are constructs, yes living constructs, but constructs like twinkies have no shelf life. The quorcraft warforged(warforged template; pg 84 Secrets of Xen'Drik) are nearly forty thousand years old and they are still around. There is nothing to indicate mortality in a warforged. On the other hand the creation forges came from Xen'Drik, yet noone has reported seeing anchient warforged in Xen'drik(except the occasional quorcraft warforged), artifacts may have been found but no warforged. Were they all destroyed or did they just die off? I like to go with the immortal side but the great thing about Eberron is it's pretty much up to the DM.
Edymnion 11-18-07, 06:22 PM	On the other hand the creation forges came from Xen'Drik, yet noone has reported seeing anchient warforged in Xen'drik(except the occasional quorcraft warforged), artifacts may have been found but no warforged. Were they all destroyed or did they just die off?Minor correction, they got the know-how to make creation forges from Xen'Drik, never said they found fully functioning forges there. And the components could have been intended for the quorcraft, after all. :)
deathbane 11-18-07, 09:38 PM	SoX has warforged known as quori-forged(I think that is the name). They have been around since the giant-quori war so it would be safe to assume they can live forever.
Nived 11-18-07, 11:20 PM	Quori Craft Warforged don't really count for the purposes of this discussion, as part of the template Quori Craft lose the "Living Construct" subtype. They are pure constructs, not alive therefore cannot die, just be destroyed.
Edymnion 11-19-07, 01:21 PM	Quori Craft Warforged don't really count for the purposes of this discussion, as part of the template Quori Craft lose the "Living Construct" subtype. They are pure constructs, not alive therefore cannot die, just be destroyed.But nothing in the living construct subtype says that they lose their immortalitly until destroyed, and the ECS says that they keep it (since the WF don't progress past middle age).
sapient 11-19-07, 01:51 PM	I have found a lot of different little bits and facts strewn out through the Eberron books that I own. The possibility that warforged deteriorate with time, possibly inducing madness, is hinted at. It is also clearly said several times, that nobody knows if they die of old age or not. Partly since they aren't that old yet, but partly because they have no theoretical life span. To me, it seems very much as if the designers want to leave this an open question, part of the mystery of the setting. Even if we were to see a "Races of the Forge"* splatbook one day, I doubt if they'de be much clearer. (Although I'd expect them to be obscure in a lot more words in such a book... :) ) The quori-forged have been around for much longer. But, as noted, they are not LIVING constructs. This ties in to the description of Merrix and his son Aarren d'Cannith experimenting with raising their sentience and stumbling onto something entirely new in the process of making warforged. Therefore, it is definitely open to rule that warforged are affected by age in a considerably different way then quori-forged. The rules say that they turn "middle aged", but after that each DM is on his or her own. At least for now. * Yes, I know they are already in chapter one of "Races of Eberron already"... BTW there's piece there on Warforged psychology and the concept of death, among other things.
Kreistor2 11-20-07, 12:35 AM	But nothing in the living construct subtype says that they lose their immortalitly until destroyed, and the ECS says that they keep it (since the WF don't progress past middle age). The note on Warforged age and the middle class modifiers states that they are conjectured to be immortal, not proven to be. Warforged may progress to middle age, old, or even keel over stone dead at some particular moment in time if the DM so chooses. No warforged is currently middle aged, since none are more than 40 years old, and middle age is theorized at 150, so not even that 150 years is proven. So, no, there should not be any reference to immortality because it is left open to the DM whether they truly are immortal or not. The lack of a comment on immortality does not imply that it even exists, much less is gained or lost, since immortality is just theorized in the first place..
larry_the_titan 11-20-07, 07:05 AM	I wish they had never put that blasted number into the books. 150yrs is to short for them to reach middle aged even with out them being constructs at heart. It keeps people from making ancient Warforged by the rules in other setting when they want to because the Warforged would be middle aged and not in the peak of health like they should be. If warforged are meant to be immortal constructs they shouldn't have an aged category to begin with.
Gurv 11-20-07, 07:40 AM	I would think that immortality would make them fear death more than a mortal would. I tried to make this point about the elves once. Someone wondered why a race that lives so long would be obsessed with living even longer. It is my opinion that the longer one lives, the longer one wishes to live. They come to expect it. A week seems like a very short time to me, but ifeels like a lifetime to my 5 year old son. When I reach the age of 90, only having perhaps a few more years might bother me somewhat; but it would terrify an elf. I think that a young warforged might be reckless with his life, especially considering what they are designed for. But an older warforged would begin to see things in greater terms. The 30 year old warforged likely value life as much as a human does. But in a few centuries, the surviving warforged will be as careful to preserve themselves as the elves are.
sapient 11-20-07, 06:08 PM	If warforged are meant to be immortal constructs they shouldn't have an aged category to begin with. Well, aside from the discussion whether they ARE meant to be immortal or not, the word "immortal" itself have many different usages. In one sense it means "cannot die for any reason", neither age nor damage. Other 'immortals', like the elfs of for example LotR, cannot die of old age but can be killed. And most of these immortals - if they are born to begin with - do age until maturity and then stop.* So "immortality" is not a rock solid concept. One could very well have warforged be immortal, but still allow them to age one age-category (to middle aged) as a parallel to the ageing of other immortal species growing up before they stop ageing. *= And then there are a few immortals - especially in childrens stories when the immortality comes from magical means - that continue to age although they won't die. They just turn more and more frail and wrinkled. (The evil queen in the movie The Brothers Grimm for example.) This is usually associated with a certain kind of "story morals", that no one should try to defeat their destiny (to die) since messing with the basic laws of life will only bring greater suffering. Morals can be so depressing... :)
Tiandao 11-21-07, 08:27 PM	Just another thing to think about wf. But as a race they are to a degree finite. They are not in full production now and if going by what the general populus knows no new wf should be produced. How would you feel as a member of a race that did life forever but couldn't reproduce? And people were biased agaist you because you were a weapon of mass destruction. People who don't need to sleep have alot of time to think of these things.
Nived 11-21-07, 08:46 PM	Tiandao has a point, the rest of us sleep a third of our lives (or for elves 'meditate' an sixth of theirs)... Warforged are always awake.
TheKeyofE 11-22-07, 08:54 PM	http://www.thealmightyguru.com/Reviews/Highlander/Images/Highlander-Love.jpg Who wants to live forever? Who dares to love forever? Forever is our today... Who waits forever, anyway?
Edymnion 11-23-07, 11:22 PM	Of course, in the future, you would likely have Warforged that begin to refuse to associate with the fleshies, because their lifespans are so short. Remember the old joke about dwarves? "To a dwarf, whats the difference between an acquaintance and a friend? Oh about a hundred years..." Imagine a couple decades from now, when the humans the WF were friends with wither and die. Couple centuries, and the dwarves and elves die as well. What extremes would the Warforged go to, knowing that they would have to sit by and watch any fleshie friend they made shrivel up and die? I would bet that some of the oldest warforged would become withdrawn around fleshies, emotionally distant. Its sort of like people and dogs. Yeah, you can get attached to one, but don't get TOO attached. It won't really live long enough for that. Then I imagine you would get warforged that become a sort of generational protector/friend. "I served with your great grandfather, your grandfather, your father, and now I serve with you. In time, I shall serve with your children, and your children's children. For as long as the XXXX family exists, I will be there." All of the old science fiction stories about immortality and the horrible burden that comes with it comes into play here (aside from having to hide the fact that you're immortal). How exactly do you cope with the knowledge that no matter what you do, all of your friends will die, and you will live on?
Kreistor2 11-24-07, 10:21 AM	All of the old science fiction stories about immortality and the horrible burden that comes with it comes into play here (aside from having to hide the fact that you're immortal). How exactly do you cope with the knowledge that no matter what you do, all of your friends will die, and you will live on? I wouldn't play it up any more than an elf would. They're in a similar enough situation that any of them could wind up in this kind of situation.
gensuke626 11-24-07, 03:12 PM	but isn't the Elven response to being long lived, "Just make friends with your own race"?
OctaviusIII 11-26-07, 04:44 AM	but isn't the Elven response to being long lived, "Just make friends with your own race"? Indeed, or else to attach themselves to causes and institutions (and families, as Edymnion mentioned) rather than simply individual people. This may make them elitist, however: "I have seen more cycles of fortune in this great House than you will ever see from your birth to your death; you will never be worthy to lead it."
Kreistor2 11-26-07, 11:17 AM	So, is that tendency towards long attachments inherent in the race, or a response to be relatively immortal to the shorter lived races? If the latter, then that sort of response might be typical of warforged as well, if your campaign includes their immortality.
DBlizzard 11-29-07, 01:00 AM	IA) The fact that they fear death. I want death to be as great a motivation to a comoner warforged as it is for a adventuring one. I see no reason that you need to make them explicitly not immortal for this. Just don't say. The warforged haven't been around long enough to know whether they are immortal or not. They fear death not because they are immortal, not because they aren't, but because they just don't know. Add in the mysteries about their souls and they have even more of a reason to fear death. Do they follow the same paths as the other races when they die? Maybe their souls just disintegrate in Dolorruh, unlike the other PC races (which have long traditions explaining what happens to their souls when they die).
ArcTan 11-29-07, 05:39 PM	Note that there's a lot of fluff about the possibility of really, really old WF. Secrets of Xen'drik has the Quorcraft Warforged, with the possibility of very old true Warforged being made by the Giants to combat them, and rumors of a Warforged city somewhere in the jungle. The Shadows of the Last War series (I think) has the story arc about the really big giant Warforged being reawakened. These beings, having existed for millennia and come to terms with their immortality, are likely to have wildly different personalities from the extremely young Warforged race of Khorvaire.
Xamiel 12-02-07, 03:21 PM	IMHO. No one knows, not even the warforged themselves. Great opening for gameplay I think. Man constantly does spastic things without thinking of the consequences. One of the possible lines Im currently developing is that man has created his successor. Eventually, WF will realize that they are immortal and that as such are somehow superior to their creators. The creation forges are turned off for now, but what about the Lord of Blades? If he succeeds in building and army and captures a few more forges......does anyone here see a possible terminator scenario developing? Or even the Matrix, WF populations increase to the point where humanoids are merely amusements, or viewed as "virus" and exterminated. I agree, being immortal would make me fear death more greatly than already knowing Im going to die. Think of the possible lost history. Think of the things you could learn if you lived that long. In my campaigns they are immortal, but they have not figured it out....YET. Maybe the answers are on the island. They will wear out, age and take penalties, just as the humanoids do. BUT, also like humanoid hip replacement surgery, they can repair any part. Only as a WF it would be much easier because they arent as fragile as humanoids. Magic welds parts much more quickly than surgery, and any low level mage knows the repair cantrip. The only part they wont repair is the "soul" or "power source". As for the power source/soul. If you view it as such, say like a battery or CPU, or just another component if you will. Then, logically, you could view it as portable, or transferable or rechargable for that matter. ANYTHING is possible with magic. (liches soul gems etc.) So, an OLD WF just makes a new body and pop click VIOLA, another 4000 years of wear and tear. Just some random thoughts from an old golem maker. :fett:
Cuaglar 12-02-07, 03:58 PM	I personally agree with those who say that constructs last practically forever. However, I'd also like to point out that there can never be many more of them, unless the Thronehold Accords are blatantly broken again. Sure, Merrix d'Cannith is still making them, but sparingly, and most of the knowledge was lost in the Mourning, so his models have imperfections that other warforged don't have. Anyway, concerning Merrix, who is he going to pass the knowledge that he does have on to? He's not married, and seems to be very reclusive, so he may not have an apprentice (although that's an interesting idea, come to think of it.) My point is, even if they are immortal, by chance and accident, or even deliberate self-destruction, eventually every warforged will meet with its end, unless it locks itself away in safety forever. That end may very well be a thousand years in the future, but eventually a fatal accident will befall it. Or, at least, that's how I see it. So, in a way, they do have a reason to fear ending. Furthermore, since their race doesn't increase, if this model played out, eventually every warforged in existence will cease to be one day.
skrap-san 12-02-07, 05:22 PM	well house Cannith are looking into the possibility to open a creation forge in xen dirk where the thronehold treaty don't have any effect.
ArcTan 12-02-07, 08:04 PM	As for the power source/soul. If you view it as such, say like a battery or CPU, or just another component if you will. Then, logically, you could view it as portable, or transferable or rechargable for that matter. ANYTHING is possible with magic. (liches soul gems etc.) So, an OLD WF just makes a new body and pop click VIOLA, another 4000 years of wear and tear. Just some random thoughts from an old golem maker. :fett: There's that artifact circlet in the ECS that does precisely this, that seems to be designed to be the focus of a campaign (bringing back the soul of a long-dead WF). Notice that this is how the very first, pre-ensouled Quorcraft WF were supposed to work -- each Warforged itself is nonsentient and stupid, and meant to be a living body to hold the mind of a Quori trapped in a Docent.