Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Shiftkitty 12-15-07, 11:35 AM	Forgive me for not having the exact sources. My only Eberron books, however, are the ECS, Races of Eberron, and Secrets of Xen'drik, so this had to come from somewhere in those. One source says that the drow were among the rebel elves who, after the fighting, refused to leave the homeland. Another says the drow were never slaves to the giants at all. Another says they were created by the giants as overseers of the lighter-skinned elves (qv, the Kapo in the Nazi Death Camps). That first one may have come from another source altogether, I'm not sure (and breakfast is cooking, so I have to keep my thoughts toward the kitchen while things sautee). Is this one of things that they've left misty and uncertain so the DM can set it up however he/she wants? Also, if the drow were created seperately from the other elves, can the argument be made that, although similar to elves, the drow are NOT elves in actuality? Can an argument be made that a drow is biologically different in a manner similar to how a chimpanzee is related to a human, but is not a human itself? Just some morning thoughts.
Kreistor2 12-15-07, 11:42 AM	It has been 50000 years. Oral and written traditions aren't reliable over that period. So, what you're reading is what different cultures believe. The Drow, for instance, probably believe that they were superior to the Elves. The Elves may not want to believe they worked with the Drow to free themselves, so they believe the Drow weren't even slaves. And so on. The truth? That's up to you. Does it matter for your campaign what the truth was 50000 years ago? I don't know if the ECS flat out says that Drow are a different race, but many think the ECS can be interpreted that way at least (if someone has a quote, I'll accept it).I personally play that they are a different race.
Belabras 12-15-07, 12:42 PM	I think having them be an entirely different race works. By all indications they were either elves that the giants heavily altered, or race created from the same mold as elves with a whole lot more work being done.
Alex_ 12-15-07, 12:52 PM	Forgive me for not having the exact sources. My only Eberron books, however, are the ECS, Races of Eberron, and Secrets of Xen'drik, so this had to come from somewhere in those. One source says that the drow were among the rebel elves who, after the fighting, refused to leave the homeland. Another says the drow were never slaves to the giants at all. Another says they were created by the giants as overseers of the lighter-skinned elves (qv, the Kapo in the Nazi Death Camps). That first one may have come from another source altogether, I'm not sure (and breakfast is cooking, so I have to keep my thoughts toward the kitchen while things sautee). Is this one of things that they've left misty and uncertain so the DM can set it up however he/she wants? Also, if the drow were created seperately from the other elves, can the argument be made that, although similar to elves, the drow are NOT elves in actuality? Can an argument be made that a drow is biologically different in a manner similar to how a chimpanzee is related to a human, but is not a human itself? Just some morning thoughts. Perhaps elements of all of the above? Drow are created as overseers of Elves, but occupy a place in society between ruling Giants and the slave Elves. When the Elves rebel, some Drow fight/assist them, and when the Giants fall and Elves decide to leave, the Drow stay behind. It's also worth noting that not all Drow or Elves were enslaved by the Giants. Nor were they the only race enslaved. There were populations that were slaves, and populations that were free. There were both Drow/Elf and non-Drow/Elf slaves. Also, they're pretty much treated as different races in several of the books.
skrap-san 12-15-07, 12:54 PM	You could have different tribes believing different things also, could be a twist to keep the players on their toes. Pc1: Ah finally i understand these strangers that looks like us. Hey look a new tribe, lets talk to them. Greetings oh superior elf man! NpC: What do you mean ELF, you will die for this insult infidel! or something in that direction...
Shiftkitty 12-15-07, 01:13 PM	The truth about the origins of the drow is sort of important in the very long-range goal of at least one player, who has decided that one of his PCs goals is to learn the true origins of his people. While in Menzoberranzan (he's an FR character), he voiced an opinion that Lolth had deceived them all and they were living an absolute lie, that she did not "lead the drow to the Underdark" but rather tricked them into following her, among other heresies. His buddies, of course, tackled him, slapping their hands over his mouth. This led to their eventual removal to Til'Asperna* (Gromph Baenre had a lot to with this since these were three of his sons and Amandrucul owed him a favor), from whence the plot was hatched that got two other drow, Gomph and Antroos, into the Eberron setting. I have found a lot of different stories about the origins of the drow, which is giving the PC a lot to sift through. I think this will fit into the Eberron setting nicely for us, because the flavor is taking on one part Sherlock Holmes, one part Indiana Jones. I see a lot of potential for adventure here. *Til'Asperna is from "Fane of the Drow", if you've never played it. Destra and Amandrucul have made interesting NPCs for my campaign, although Destra considers the notion of a scorpion god ruling the drow to be the silly musings of silly children. She hates being the main point of contact for these portal travelling males and is wishing there was an expendable female she could send along to make sure they stay faithful to Lolth.
Yakman 12-15-07, 02:43 PM	considering the vast gulfs of time in question here, not to mention multiple worlds, why not come up with something strikingly different? maybe faerun's drow come from xen'drik? lloth is the scorpion god's daughter, who fled from her father to toril thousands of year's ago.
eehamburg 12-15-07, 11:34 PM	Keep this in mind as well ... it has been stated by many that the drow were elves but they were modified by the giants to work as assassins against the rebelling elves. Another 2 coppers.
Kreistor2 12-16-07, 02:34 AM	Humans have a hard time figuring out what happened 4000 years ago, and we're talking more than 50000 in this thread. What evidence do you think should have survived that long? Maybe it has been about the same number of generations, but we have no surviving oral tradition of the Egyptians: everything we know was puzzled out by modern people from ancient leavings, and even that was hard enough. Just because someone is trying to figure something out doesn't mean it is possible to achieve. Your Drow with that goal is just as trapped as the Drow in Menzoberranzan: it's just an obsession with fact instead of a blindness of faith. The moment he arrives in Eberron and finds Drow living in the jungles like savages his beliefs about Lolth are either confirmed or negated, depending on his perspective. The Drow here have culture but no civilization. The Sulatar have civilization but no culture. The Umbragen have culture and the remnants of civilization, but no future. The Drow of FR have culture, civilization, a future, but are forever doomed. Ultimately, Eberron can't give him what he wants, and that is proof that Drow would be more if Lolth was not interfering. No matter what the past may have been, it can't change the present, and it is the present where the Drow live. So, personally, I would give him evidence that all of these theories are true and false. Don't satisfy this player's goal. Leave it to the player to realize that he needs to find a place in the world, and rise above mutable history towards a peaceful present.
Edymnion 12-17-07, 09:41 AM	Yes, if your players want a setting where they get to know for a fact the truth about everything, then Eberron might not be such a good setting for them. A great number of things are set up so that, basically, no one will ever know the truth about what happened (unless they DM specifically makes something up). Some things are, like in the real world, simply lost to the past. Real life humans may never know for sure where the first humans lived. Did we come out of Africa and spread out, was it Asia? We don't know, and while we can find clues pointing at one location or another, we find clues pointing to the exact opposite answer as well. Its one of the cool parts of Eberron, there are mysteries that will most likely never be solved. Its just part of the pulp/noir tradition. The heroes don't always get to know the full history of everything thats going on. And even if they think they know, it can be turned upside down in the next adventure as a plot twist. So yeah, work up several different answers, and let the character decide which one he wants to believe is true.
Shiftkitty 12-17-07, 03:21 PM	Thanks for the great ideas, guys. I think I'll try to write up what would be the actual honest-to-Vulkoor truth, so that if he does find some grains of truth I can keep them consistent. I'll let him sort through the miscellaneous bits of info and decide for himself what holds water and what doesn't. Maybe game centuries from now he'll be sitting by candlelight, scratching notes on parchment with an apprentice by his side who has taken an oath to continue his master's life's work. It just may be hard for him to convince another, especially a younger, drow that such questions are worth asking, let alone worth answering. Ah, but that's what long-term campaigns are for, eh?