Post/Author/DateTime	Post
princeofcincinnati 02-11-07, 10:03 PM	Does the changeling Minor shapechange qualifiy it for the Warshaper class?
Belabras 02-11-07, 11:17 PM	Technically, yes. In terms of game balance, no.
Just another user 02-12-07, 03:49 AM	Technically, yes. In terms of game balance, no. And neither in terms of flavour, IMO.
Dr. Benway 02-12-07, 11:14 AM	Please keep in mind that the previous two comments are those two people's OPINIONS, nothing more. WotC has not seen fit to change the requirements of the class, or make an offical statement on the fact that both Changelings and Shifters qualify for it. Does it predate 0 ECL races with Shapeshifter subtype? Yes. Does that make the horribly unbalanced world ender that people here like to bi tch about? No. Personally, I have found that warshaper doesnt unbalance things at all. It makes a character slightly more powerful at lower levels, but it balances out very quickly. Arguably, the most powerful abilities are the stat bonuses and the natural weapon damage increase... Stat bonuses, as we all know, are weak once you are past, say, level 6 or 7. And a natural weapon damage increase? You mean for those weapons that you cant use your interative attacks for, and at most give you two swings a round with a pair of claws? OH GODS OF BALANCE WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN US??!! Sorry but I just get really sick of people whining about this class without actually thinking about what it gives you. Sure you can do some cool stuff at a SLIGHTLY lower level than intended, but by no means is it a game breaker. Having read this, please keep in mind, that these are my opinions and nothing more... DocB :88E: vs :coolcthul Who shall prevail?
Ricohard_Draconis 02-12-07, 07:03 PM	except the major balance problem is that you can have a near infinite number of natural attacks it just takes you a while to produce them. i believe.
Kreistor2 02-12-07, 08:23 PM	Ah, I see. They're interpreting Morphic Weapons to allow them to grow multiple sets of limbs, since it does not specifically say you can only grow one new set of weapons. Ie. You can theoretically grow a Bite, Claws, Wings, Tail, Slam, Tentacles, Gore, Horns, and anything else you could think of. Yeah, allowing that is a mistake. Limiting it to one Morphic Weapon at a time would fix that. I disagree that the Stat bonuses are weak. It's another stat boost that stacks with all the others, and that is always a mistake with Strength since it affects attack rolls and damage, which is an exponential system in a linear game. Anyway... The Fast Healing is also a mistake. It allows for infinite healing between combats, which removes the fundamental limit on combats/day in this system. A smart party could abuse that feature. It's still not enough for me to ban the class. A couple tweaks bring it back under control.
AlHazred 02-12-07, 08:36 PM	My favorite is the changeling or shifter monk who goes into Warshaper. It's all natural attacks, baby!
Belabras 02-12-07, 09:22 PM	The solutions that have been offered (and they seem reasonable to me) is to limit the benefits of the PRC to the times when either the Shifter is shifting, or when the Changling is in 'battleform' - a horrific appearance that could easlity be mistaken for some Daelkyr spawned terror.
Ricohard_Draconis 02-12-07, 09:25 PM	but what if i want the horns of a minotaur say? which would be a perfectly good use of both morphic weapon and the changeling rules. If you rule otherwise your changeing the very basis of the class which is that they apply when your in a form other than your own.
UnderworldLord 02-12-07, 09:28 PM	While I don't see a problem with the changelings getting the class... I just don't see a shifter wanting to do it IC. Besides, they come from lycanthropic stock. I wouldn't really let regular lycan's take it either, since they change in very specific way. Changelings though, can change any physical feature just slightly. Why wouldn't they want to go ahead and make themselves more adaptable to combat? And if the Morphic Weapon is a problem here, why isn't it a problem on any shapechanger?
Belabras 02-12-07, 10:11 PM	While I don't see a problem with the changelings getting the class... I just don't see a shifter wanting to do it IC. Besides, they come from lycanthropic stock. I wouldn't really let regular lycan's take it either, since they change in very specific way. Changelings though, can change any physical feature just slightly. Why wouldn't they want to go ahead and make themselves more adaptable to combat? And if the Morphic Weapon is a problem here, why isn't it a problem on any shapechanger? A smart DM would limit it to just one weapon on any shapechanger. Limitless natural weapons are broken no matter who has them.
Cifer 02-13-07, 10:07 AM	The Fast Healing is also a mistake. It allows for infinite healing between combats, which removes the fundamental limit on combats/day in this system. A smart party could abuse that feature. Actually, that's the least of the problems. There is a multitude of ways to get to decent HP regeneration, the easiest of them being Dread Necro/Tombtainted Soul. In the end, you still have problems - you run out of x/day abilities and possibly spells, suffer ability damage or other adverse conditions or you simply have to wait for your party to recover which does not share your advantages. And if everyone is really capable of regenerating between fights - so what? It means you don't have to rest that often - is resting really that cool?
UnderworldLord 02-13-07, 10:48 AM	Rest isn't something that happened much with one of our DMs online. We'd go fight to fight, end up fatigued, and still fighting. Heck I went into an arena in one of his games with 11HP. I lasted multiple rounds thanks to huge reflex saves and my starspawn. In the end, a werewolf finally bit my throat out, but it was actually kinda fun. My new character is a Warmage/Silver pyromancer though, and I shall now have my revenge on the werewolf... even if the bunny did eat him.
Dr. Benway 02-13-07, 10:48 AM	Really the comments made so far complain about the abilities of the class...not its prereqs. That should tell you all something. Considering how most PrC's are more powerful than the general core classes, the Warshaper comes in at a strong average. DocB :88E: vs :coolcthul Who shall prevail?
Belabras 02-13-07, 12:38 PM	Really the comments made so far complain about the abilities of the class...not its prereqs. That should tell you all something. Considering how most PrC's are more powerful than the general core classes, the Warshaper comes in at a strong average. DocB :88E: vs :coolcthul Who shall prevail? Uh, no. That's faulty reasoning. The powers of the PRC, which are quite good, become overpowered when a character can get them earlier in thier career (lvl 4 for the Changling warshaper) and can have them active at all times. Before the changling and shifter the PRC abilities only applied for druid characters when they wildshaped, and that's what the class was balanced for.
Dr. Benway 02-13-07, 01:39 PM	Uh, no. That's faulty reasoning. The powers of the PRC, which are quite good, become overpowered when a character can get them earlier in thier career (lvl 4 for the Changling warshaper) and can have them active at all times. Before the changling and shifter the PRC abilities only applied for druid characters when they wildshaped, and that's what the class was balanced for. Please, get real... We are talking about a 2 level difference here. Changeling fighter can take this PrC at 5th level. Druid of any race can take it at 7th level. Oh my god no! We arent talking about a 5+ level split here folks. We are talking about 2 levels. Oh no. And that druid is going to get about a thousand times more value out of the class than that fighter will. It is not unbalanced if you actually look at it reasonably. DocB :88E: vs :coolcthul Who shall prevail?
Belabras 02-13-07, 02:33 PM	Um, 2 levels is usually a pretty hefty amount of time in a characters life span. You also fail to address the 'always on' problem. I don't think I'm being unreasonable at all.
Cifer 02-13-07, 02:38 PM	Um, 2 levels is usually a pretty hefty amount of time in a characters life span. Given a full game 1-20, it's 1/10 of the game. Of course, most games don't run that long. Plus, the sooner you get into a PRC, the sooner you can stop taking levels in base classes you don't like and only use for getting into the class.
Artector 02-13-07, 03:25 PM	I like the idea of a changeling/warshaper. Makes me actually want to take the class. I'd keep them restricted to one type of weapon. So they could grow a pair of claws, or a set of tentacles. Tail Slaps, wings, stuff they can't get I'd outright disallow. Claws, bites, and slams are fair game. I just thought of the coolest idea. This traveling troupe winds its way through the Five Nations. Forun's Band is a group of Changeling actors. The exact number in the troop varies but it usually never goes above 20 members. They call themselves a "Troupe" but they are more of a carnival revolving around the stage. Each performance typically involves illusions, juggling, tumbling, and swordplay. Beyond those there is the drama/tragedy/comedy that draws a great crowd. Behind the scenes the troupe is a group of mercenaries. During the last war they worked for anyone and everyone. The people who hired them thought they were upright Brelish soldiers, proud Karrnathi citizens, or powerful Goblin Warriors. During one mission the old leader Arasmus died. The war was almost over and his second-in-command decided it was best to go underground. Thus Forun's Merry Band was formed. Mechanically the band is composed of all changelings. The frontmen are bards or rogues, the muscle are fighters. There is one common tie, they are all Warshapers. They utilize the greater control over their form to accomplish their mission as necessary. Forun himself is a True Neutral Fighter 4/Warshaper 4. Thoughts?
ChristopherGroves 02-13-07, 04:22 PM	Before the changling and shifter the PRC abilities only applied for druid characters when they wildshaped, and that's what the class was balanced for. You're making an assumption there. You're also making an assumption that all classes should zero-sum to the exact same power level in all games. The class isn't overly powerful - certainly less so than an Artificer, straight Cleric, straight Druid, straight Ardent ... etc. using no PrCs. You could make the case that it is stronger in the lower-mid levels (7-8 or so), and for that i'd agree. It has limited value in a low-level game ending at 5-6 and far less value in most games going near 20. Besides, Shapeshift druid can take it pretty f'ing early too (druid 1, fighter 4 ... warhsaper). And shame on you Dr. Benway for suggesting Fighter 5 ... my gods man! Is it one of the better PrCs? Sure ... but just because you've seen one person build one exploitative build doesn't make it broken.
Artector 02-13-07, 04:36 PM	Besides, Shapeshift druid can take it pretty f'ing early too (druid 1, fighter 4 ... warhsaper). And shame on you Dr. Benway for suggesting Fighter 5 ... my gods man! Shame on you. Druids don't get Shapechanging abilities until 5th level.
Belabras 02-13-07, 04:57 PM	Besides, Shapeshift druid can take it pretty f'ing early too (druid 1, fighter 4 ... warhsaper). And shame on you Dr. Benway for suggesting Fighter 5 ... my gods man! This is the application we are talking about. Using the Shapechanger subtype to get into the PRC early for an entirely melee class (and independant of any timed mechanic). I've no problems with the PRC in general, just that specific case.
ChristopherGroves 02-13-07, 05:11 PM	This is the application we are talking about. Using the Shapechanger subtype to get into the PRC early for an entirely melee class (and independant of any timed mechanic). I've no problems with the PRC in general, just that specific case. My point was fighter 5 ... fighter 4 / ranger 1 ... fighter 4 / barb 1 ... JUST NOT FIGHTER 5 for the love of all that is holy!
ChristopherGroves 02-13-07, 05:11 PM	Shame on you. Druids don't get Shapechanging abilities until 5th level. SHAPESHIFT druid, PHB2 alternate class feature gives an alternate form at first level.
Belabras 02-13-07, 05:45 PM	My point was fighter 5 ... fighter 4 / ranger 1 ... fighter 4 / barb 1 ... JUST NOT FIGHTER 5 for the love of all that is holy! It's possible to go Fighter 4 / Warshaper 1 using this particular exploit.
ChristopherGroves 02-13-07, 05:53 PM	It's possible to got Fighter 4 / Warshaper 1 using this particular exploit. Right, just never suggest Fighter 5 was my point on that one.
princeofcincinnati 02-13-07, 06:31 PM	Ok lets focus. The question I made was : Does the Changeling meet the requirements for the class?
ophanimx 02-13-07, 06:59 PM	Ok lets focus. The question I made was : Does the Changeling meet the requirements for the class? Yes. Changeling qualifies as it has the proper subtype. Your DM may slap you for trying it, though. I (probably) wouldn't allow it myself as I don't think Warshaper was intended to be taken as such a low level. It gives you perks earlier then normal and means you're a little stronger two levels earlier. It's not until seven levels later (when they can snag the full five in the class) that you're back on equal footing. But each their own.
Artector 02-13-07, 07:47 PM	SHAPESHIFT druid, PHB2 alternate class feature gives an alternate form at first level. Ahh, that makes more sense. Then we have a problem with multiple suppliments not realizing things between each other. If I were to "break" the warshaper like that then I'd go Barb 4/Druid 1.
ChristopherGroves 02-13-07, 09:58 PM	Really the limiting factor is how you read the "can add an additional natural attack" Is that just one more? Is it multiple, each one taking a move action? Could you, in-fact, grow 3.2 million tentacles? Most people and DMs would limit this. Also I should point out that the capabilities only work WHILE IN YOUR ALTERNATE FORM. A changeling, that may be less of an issue if you spend your time looking like a human, elf, dwarf or somesuch ... (or better yet, some humanoid with a real natural attack). Shifters can enter the class but only get the capabilities while actually shifting IIRC. The class is really only "good" for the first four levels; that fifth level isn't quite worth it. You'll be pretty darn good at 7th-9th. Of course, Clerics get Divine Power at 7th and there's no reason that your Cleric wouldn't be something like ... for instance ... a Sovereign Speaker. Your full-on Druid will be wildshaping like a fiend and probably have combat forms that outshine your measly humanoid-limited shape. Hell, your wizard can polymorph himself and probably beat you silly until he runs out of spells ... and those are mostly base+eberron or base+core+eberron builds and capabilities. Expand outward and the Warshaper loses big time to other PrCs that are actually "broken" in that level range.
Belabras 02-13-07, 10:19 PM	It's the level 5-6 range that's the problem, but you already know that. I don't know why I get sucked into this every 3 months when someone mentions it again :P Needless to say, if I were DMing I wouldn't allow it for a changling without some mitigating factor. Your milage may vary.
OmNefarious 02-15-07, 11:12 AM	Ok I have a question now. Since it says that a warshaper must be in an alternate form (might have read it wrong) to gain the bonuses, wouldnt all a Changeling have to do is transform say into a human and stay like that for however long he wants? I have a friend (who I am training to be a DM) who thinks that if the Changeling did that he would grow accustomed to that form and his bonuses would no longer work. I told him then why would any changeling who is a passer gain his racial bonuses since they live as one race for their entire lives. He said it wasnt the same thing. So yeah can a changeling just stay in one form and continually gain the special abilities of the warshaper or would he have to change back?
Ricohard_Draconis 02-15-07, 12:41 PM	Ok I have a question now. Since it says that a warshaper must be in an alternate form (might have read it wrong) to gain the bonuses, wouldnt all a Changeling have to do is transform say into a human and stay like that for however long he wants? I have a friend (who I am training to be a DM) who thinks that if the Changeling did that he would grow accustomed to that form and his bonuses would no longer work. I told him then why would any changeling who is a passer gain his racial bonuses since they live as one race for their entire lives. He said it wasnt the same thing. So yeah can a changeling just stay in one form and continually gain the special abilities of the warshaper or would he have to change back? They're still just a changeling pretending to be a different form their disguise bonus doesn't increase the longer they stay in one form. Besides why change back? hop from human to elf to orc or from one human face to another.
princeofcincinnati 02-15-07, 12:56 PM	Ok I have a question now. Since it says that a warshaper must be in an alternate form (might have read it wrong) to gain the bonuses, wouldnt all a Changeling have to do is transform say into a human and stay like that for however long he wants? I have a friend (who I am training to be a DM) who thinks that if the Changeling did that he would grow accustomed to that form and his bonuses would no longer work. I told him then why would any changeling who is a passer gain his racial bonuses since they live as one race for their entire lives. He said it wasnt the same thing. So yeah can a changeling just stay in one form and continually gain the special abilities of the warshaper or would he have to change back? Yea . the same way a doppleganger can.
Artector 02-15-07, 09:34 PM	I told him then why would any changeling who is a passer gain his racial bonuses since they live as one race for their entire lives. He said it wasnt the same thing. That is one of the worst things Races of Eberron did.
Macrovore 02-16-07, 01:59 PM	Ok I have a question now. Since it says that a warshaper must be in an alternate form (might have read it wrong) to gain the bonuses, wouldnt all a Changeling have to do is transform say into a human and stay like that for however long he wants? he doesn't even have to change into a human. For example: Changeling Warshaper: "Huh, i feel like growing my hair a few inches today. And Wow! i just got +4 to Str and Con, immunity to critical hits, fast healing 4 and the ability to make as many freakin' natural weapons as i want!!"
RogueElement 02-16-07, 06:45 PM	It makes sense if you think of a Warshaper as a rip off of Deep Space Nine changelings or Mystique from X-Men or any other shapeshifter in the entire history of shapeshifter stories. In fantasy/sci-fi, shapeshifters always have super strength, preternatural agility, regeneration, and claws-on-demand whether they're in human-form or fiend-form.
korcheck 02-23-07, 09:58 PM	UMM ok quick question where is this prestige class coming from? it looks familiar but i don't know what book it's in.
Artector 02-23-07, 10:23 PM	UMM ok quick question where is this prestige class coming from? it looks familiar but i don't know what book it's in. Complete Warrior.
Werebat 02-24-07, 01:53 PM	I've narrowed my next PC in am upcoming Eberron game down to three choices -- a Swiftwing Shifter WildernessRogue13/Ranger2/WeretouchedMaster5 (using "rat" as a sub for bat to provide Dex through the roof), a Changeling Monk6/Warshaper4/Rogue10, and a Goblin Artificer 20. I think the Shifter is the weakest of the three builds, and the Goblin is the most powerful. A lot will depend on how the DM is going to rule different things -- for example, will he allow me to sub Blindsense for Scent for a werebat WTM? Will he allow Warshaper as is or will he dicker with the stat boosts and healing, and if so by how much? Will he allow me to use two Action Points to activate Shifting, and is he going to go with the normal number of action points per level (important to both the Shifter and the Goblin)? Will he accept the ruling that monk unarmed attacks count as natural weapons? Anyway, I like the flavor of the Changeling Warhshaper, and can easily imagine a monastic community of Changeling Reality Seekers having pioneered the class in the first place. I can see a DM wanting to limit the fast healing, maybe by dropping it and keeping only the healing gained via a concentration check (I'd still take the PrC if my DM ruled this way). - Ron ^*^
Hallana 03-09-07, 09:46 AM	Changelings and shifters are eligible for the prestige class both in RAW and designer intent. The following is Keith Baker's comment on the issue: KeithBaker Yes. Both changeling and shifter have the shapeshifter subtye, which is listed as one of the five ways a creature can qualify for that prestige class. The quote is an excerpt from a chat transcript <http://www.devir.es/chat/inicio/transcripts/keith-baker.htm>. Flavor-wise the prestige class is just perfect for a changeling. But if you're worried about balance issues, house-rule it out of your gaming table. H
princeofcincinnati 03-09-07, 10:10 AM	Changelings and shifters are eligible for the prestige class both in RAW and designer intent. The following is Keith Baker's comment on the issue: KeithBaker Yes. Both changeling and shifter have the shapeshifter subtye, which is listed as one of the five ways a creature can qualify for that prestige class. The quote is an excerpt from a chat transcript <http://www.devir.es/chat/inicio/transcripts/keith-baker.htm>. Flavor-wise the prestige class is just perfect for a changeling. But if you're worried about balance issues, house-rule it out of your gaming table. H Thank you for that. It seems to be as official as can be.