Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Evil-Lincoln 04-30-08, 07:01 PM	I was recently coming up with a character concept for a changeling scout in the Karrnathi military that used his change shape ability to turn into beings who's skin color matched his surroundings, to better hide himself. I didn't and will not expect a bonus given to me from my DM for doing this, I just wanted to do it for flavor. Soon enough I realized, through the ability of the changeling, he could very well change his skin color without changing his race/species, though either way, it's still cool visually. And I'd say it's stylishly Eberron. A changeling sneaks into a shadowy room and changes into a dark skinned human or a drow, or is sneaking through the woods during spring, and changes himself into a hobgoblin who happens to have a skin tone similar to the forestation. Though, when I think about it, wouldn't this be helpful mechanically? The changeling, as far as I can see, can change his skin tone to whatever. Disguise self doesn't say you can't make your skin bright pink if you wanted, but why would one? So could a changeling use his minor change shape to change his skin color to better match his background, or am I thinking too much into this power? Again, don't get me wrong, I'm not using this to get permission from my DM to use the mechanical benefits of changing shape to the area around to better hide. I like it as a more flavorful thing to do, instead of just doing it for a +2 here or a +2 there.
Aeros_of_Q-pid 05-01-08, 05:55 PM	What is you gave it a racial feat. that has a prerequsite of 1 to 3 other racial feats to gain. like one that can give you then take this Camoflage feat which can add his +10 he gains from Minor change shape into +10 Hide checks, but he still can't do it if any one is looking because his outline against the surrounding would be seen. of course to fully benefit from this he would have to be entirely naked.
Evil-Lincoln 05-01-08, 08:51 PM	Well, I wouldn't go that far. I don't believe that is an ability that dopplegangers have, to blend in with their surroundings in such a way to give that much of a bonus to their hide checks. Basically, I was just thinking of a minor +1 or +2 circumstance bonus on perhaps a DC 15 Disguise check to change the color of their skin, eyes and hair to match the color of their background.
Dr. Benway 05-02-08, 01:27 AM	Well, I wouldn't go that far. I don't believe that is an ability that dopplegangers have, to blend in with their surroundings in such a way to give that much of a bonus to their hide checks. Basically, I was just thinking of a minor +1 or +2 circumstance bonus on perhaps a DC 15 Disguise check to change the color of their skin, eyes and hair to match the color of their background. Yopu are definately on the right track here. Altho, making up a new racial feat for changelings that allow them to gain a hide bonus due to their change shape ability isnt out of the park. What you said about them being bale to change their features into any color is true, and useful in different ways. If the rest of the party gets captured it could be handy to suddenly change your eye or hair color so they know orc x is actually their changeling friend. You can also create tattoos, pictures, even words on your skin as a changeling. A living canvas...or bilboard if the need were to arise. DocB :88E: vs :coolcthul Who shall prevail?
smacintush 05-02-08, 11:01 AM	Well, I wouldn't allow it. Not the way you describe. I can't find any rule or rules that would contradict it's usage this way but I think that it violates what I believe was intended. Let's go real world first: having the physical ability to alter your skin color doesn't necessarily mean you have the ability to camouflage yourself. Some animals can only change their overall color, others can make complicated patterns. Secondly; Changelings evolved from Dopplegangers. The Change Shape ability of the Doppleganger specifically states the proper usage of that ability in the very first sentence of the description: A creature with this special quality has the ability to assume the appearance of a specific creature or type of creature (usually a humanoid), but retains most of its own physical qualities. Emphasis mine. This tells me that creating patterns on the skin of whatever they like is not within their abilities. If confronted with this in MY game I would use the Doppleganger as a guide as to how the Changeling's ability is intended to work. Thirdly; It is MY belief that Disguise Self was intended to be used in a similar manner to Change Shape. That is, to make you look different within the realm of what's "real". Not give you license to make yourself look as freaky as you want. Nowhere does it even MENTION skin color, let alone the extreme manipulation of your skin color to camouflage yourself. Fourthly; The Changlings ability only effects the body, not the clothes so you would have to be nearly naked to even get any effect out of it. So after considering all of that, I would say that one could change their overall skin color to match that of whatever skin colors and patterns occur naturally in the kinds of creatures he can imitate. If that creature gets a hide bonus due to its coloring then I would give one based upon that bonus and even then only if he was nearly or completely naked. Of course that's off the top of my head, I am certainly open to arguments as to why I'm wrong. :)
Bojangles_the_Barbarian 05-07-08, 12:35 PM	Firstly, lets start with the extreme basics. Red text is emphasized. Minor Change Shape (Su) – Disguise Self at will as a Full Round Action. This is a Transformation, not an Illusion. The Changeling’s body changes, but not its possessions. The change is permanent until willingly changed. Use of this ability grants a +10 Circumstance bonus on Disguise checks. as per this (http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Races.pdf) Disguise Self Illusion (Glamer) You make yourself—including clothing, armor, weapons, and equipment—look different. You can seem 1 foot shorter or taller, thin, fat, or in between. You cannot change your body type. Otherwise, the extent of the apparent change is up to you. You could add or obscure a minor feature or look like an entirely different person. The spell does not provide the abilities or mannerisms of the chosen form, nor does it alter the perceived tactile (touch) or audible (sound) properties of you or your equipment. So you can not, understandably "sound" different, but naturally as this is not an illusion you can change how you "feel". Meaning you are as texturally versatile as you are visually. If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on the Disguise check. A creature that interacts with the glamer gets a Will save to recognize it as an illusion. Unrecognized with changeling racial trait, as it is transformational, not illusionary. That said: Changelings are as the rules are written, are not able to change their type (i.e. Humanoid to Aberration), but are able to change their general body shape and features (i.e. height, weight, and yes, even coloration). On a side note, I never truly understood that if a changeling had such shapechanging ability, why couldn't they disguise clothes also? Sure they would be naked in reality, but it would look otherwise. For all reactions visually it wouldn't matter. Now obviously, the common person would probably not be able to properly render a realistic set of clothing. Attempts made would probably look completely fake (no threading, completely smooth surface painted on with color, skin tight, no ruffles or wrinkles, etc). What if though you actually knew what you were doing? Certain Craft skill checks, or simple spot checks even, would be able to know what clothing looks like and how it feels. With enough ranks a person would start to be able to recreate incredibly, realistic, decoy "skin-costumes". Minor Creation You create a nonmagical, unattended object of nonliving, vegetable matter. The volume of the item created cannot exceed 1 cubic foot per caster level. You must succeed on an appropriate skill check to make a complex item. Using this as inspiration. Whether this would convey a circumstance bonus however is something to think about. I can really see the logic of course behind the OP question, but lets think about it. Maybe making another racial feat is in order. Maybe just making a new clarification works better. They kept printing out "new uses" for skills all the time beforehand, even if you probably did something similar already in a game. Why is this so different now? Pick your own poison, I say.
Dr. Benway 05-09-08, 04:53 AM	[QUOTE=Bojangles_the_Barbarian;15798871] [/B] So you can not, understandably "sound" different, but naturally as this is not an illusion you can change how you "feel". Meaning you are as texturally versatile as you are visually. This is an side effect of Disguise Self being an illusion. With the Changeling's shapechange ability, the change is physical, so you not only feel different, but sound different too. If you doubt this, consider that changelings who change gender are fully physcally that gender, with ability to bear children or impregnate another... DocB :88E: vs :coolcthul Who shall prevail?
Arcane Guyver 05-10-08, 01:13 PM	This is an side effect of Disguise Self being an illusion. With the Changeling's shapechange ability, the change is physical, so you not only feel different, but sound different too. If you doubt this, consider that changelings who change gender are fully physcally that gender, with ability to bear children or impregnate another... Heh, that's an entirely different topic (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1012212)... Flavor-wise, I see no reason not to let the player say he's changing his physical appearance to match the background (not that it'll affect his gear, nor will it give him any appreciable bonus on the check). You want a special feat that gives you a bonus to Hide that nobody else has, just take Skill Focus: Hide - I guarantee nobody will have that feat, and it'll give you a +3 to the check.
Dread Lord 05-17-08, 11:28 PM	If someone in the party covers their face in mud and the GM grants a bonus to hide checks then I see no reason why a changling couldn't get that bonus too. I would make it very minor though, +1 maximum, maybe a +2 with a DC 15 survival check. As pointed out before, unless the changling sheds almost all clothing then whatever coloration changes made will only be affecting the face and hands anyway. Of course, if you accept this then you should probably give Drow and dark skinned humans a bonus to hiding in shadows too, and perhaps a penalty to hiding in snowy areas.
Edymnion 05-24-08, 08:25 PM	I would allow it as a flavor thing. You can say you change into someone with camoflauge patterned skin, but you would still make a normal hide check, no extra bonuses. Basically, its flavor text for how you just got a 37 on your hide check, not why you got a 37.