Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rerecros 07-02-07, 02:37 AM	I've noticed that in the minor shapechange descriptor, nowhere does it say that a changeling can alter it's voice. It says it works like the disguise self spell. The spell does not provide the abilities or mannerisms of the chosen form, nor does it alter the perceived tactile (touch) or audible (sound) properties of you or your equipment. Now minor shape change amends the tactile part, but makes no mention of the audible part. It would be kinda hard to be a race of shapechangers when any form you take that is drastically different than your original form looks like a poorly dubbed B movie from japan. Now is this my mistake or a HUGE oversight? Either way, I just give changelings mimicry for free.
Amaril 07-02-07, 10:42 AM	I don't think it's an oversight. Even the description for the changeling indicates that the ability works within the limits of the spell.
Belkar 07-02-07, 11:48 AM	I've never worked it as an oversight. The Disguise skill includes disguising your voice... and keep in mind that minor shapechange isn't "instant other person," it gives a massive bonus to disguise (per the spell description). A changeling can still be recognized as such to someone with a massive spot check. I run it as such, and since we're talking about the disguise skill here (which the changeling ability gives the bonus to), the skill works for both outward appearance and voice.
Amaril 07-02-07, 12:33 PM	Consider, too, that there's a difference between looking like another person and creating your own character. Typically, a spot against disguise self gets bonuses if the spotter is familiar with the character being emulated, but if the changeling is merely avoiding being detected as himself, then those bonuses to spot don't apply. In other words, it's easier to disguise your voice as not your own rather than as someone else's.
Edymnion 07-02-07, 01:06 PM	Even for a normal human, imitating someone else's voice is a disguise check. Remember, a disguise is more than just looking like someone, its talking like them, moving like them, doing the same things as them. I mean, it doesn't matter how much you look like Paris Hilton, everybody is going to know its not her when you start reading A Brief History of Time.
Belkar 07-02-07, 02:03 PM	Even for a normal human, imitating someone else's voice is a disguise check. Remember, a disguise is more than just looking like someone, its talking like them, moving like them, doing the same things as them. Exactly. Even if the check may be a useless point (ie: I've never seen who you're pretending to be before in my life... and so the DC is low, and with minor shape change and all your bonuses, you could roll a 1 and still make the DC...) it still makes sense in regards to the game mechanics. Thus... you could mimic a voice with the disguise check, and a changeling's ability boosts that disguise skill. Nothing more... It's cinematic to think of it as a "morphing" of flesh all "Odoe-style", but from a game mechanic standpoint... it's pretty simple.
DragoonDarkfire 07-02-07, 07:32 PM	So I guess that Kenku's (in MM3) have such a good grasp of mimicry that they don't even need to disguise their voices and instead they use Bluff to hide their actual voice?
Edymnion 07-02-07, 09:06 PM	So I guess that Kenku's (in MM3) have such a good grasp of mimicry that they don't even need to disguise their voices and instead they use Bluff to hide their actual voice?No, more like whoever wrote that one didn't understand the differance between the two skills.
ArcTan 07-02-07, 09:19 PM	Count me as in the "huge oversight" camp. Or, rather, in the "flavor text needs to make up what mechanics lack" camp. Minor shapechange "working like" disguise self is a simple convention so you know you can't do things like mimic flight or dragon's breath or whatever. The *flavor* of what Changelings do is clearly that they can flawlessly mimic other people, and that this mimicking is a *physical* change rather than a "hologram" the way disguise self is. So no, I don't rule that Changelings sound just like themselves when they use Minor Shapechange and that if you turn into a pretty girl you still have a basso profundo. Either that, or Changelings all naturally have generic, highly mutable voices the way naturally talented vocal impressionists do (something that D&D doesn't model mechanically anywhere except as a simple bonus to Disguise, which Changelings have).
ArcTan 07-02-07, 09:27 PM	I would also like to point out that there's nothing particularly significant about the fact that disguise self and minor shapechange both "only" give you a +10 to Disguise, because that's the standard for *all* disguise magic. This includes the spell shapechange, which, among other things, lets you breathe fire and fly like a dragon, be invisible like an invisible stalker, use sonar like a bat and wail like a banshee -- i.e. which mimics both aural and visual properties without fail. So there's no "proof" that minor shapechange doesn't alter your voice other than how you interpret the fluff. Note that minor shapechange *does* say it's different from disguise self right there in the description -- that it's *not* an illusion but a real, physical change. (The terms "visual", "aural" and "tactile properties" only generally apply to illusions, not real physical changes. It's impossible to really physically change something without changing it in every respect -- if a Changeling really, physically becomes 50 pounds heavier, her footprints will clang louder on a metal floor, and if she adopts a chitinous shell to look like a thri-kreen she really will clack if I rap against her back with my knuckles. To say otherwise is to make the fluff incredibly bizarre.)
Belkar 07-03-07, 04:30 PM	So there's no "proof" that minor shapechange doesn't alter your voice other than how you interpret the fluff. Note that minor shapechange *does* say it's different from disguise self right there in the description -- that it's *not* an illusion but a real, physical change. (The terms "visual", "aural" and "tactile properties" only generally apply to illusions, not real physical changes. It's impossible to really physically change something without changing it in every respect This is a very good point. It's a physical change, not an illusion... and illusion magic goes so far as to designate per various spells whether there is an aural or visual component, etc, etc. Since this is a physical change, it makes sense that the vocal chords would be adjusted as well. In fact... it makes more sense than an illusion spell...
Symar 07-03-07, 04:39 PM	I do not have a funny voice, you take that back! Moving on... ArcTan's arguements make a lot of sense, and I agree.