Changing favored classes [Archive] - Wizards Community

Changing favored classes [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Irian
05-19-07, 02:55 AM Ok, ok, subraces are cheesy. BUT. Do the favored classes of the standard races make sense for all the different backgrounds of Eberron? How about giving Valenar Elves Ranger as favored class etc.?

Opinions?
Vharuck
05-19-07, 08:41 AM Favored classes don't always have to be decided or influenced by the societal structure. Maybe elves have wizard as a favored class because they seem naturally talented with magic. It's simpler for them to learn wizardry.
tallric_kruush
05-19-07, 02:07 PM Ok, ok, subraces are cheesy. BUT. Do the favored classes of the standard races make sense for all the different backgrounds of Eberron? How about giving Valenar Elves Ranger as favored class etc.?

Opinions?

I think Valenar Elves do have Ranger as a Favored Class. Your reasoning is solid; and though it at gimps the human (and half-elves) in the minds of some, we generally dispense with the favored race/mutliclassing penalties in our games. We feel you should able to play the character you truly want to play, without huge XP penalties.

Also, Valenar aren't a subrace, just a society within a race. I don't think you were implying that they were, though. Subraces aren't always cheesy. They are an integral part of FR, for instance. In Eberron, however, we allow only the Drow subrace. The rest aren't canon, and don't fit our subrace-free vision of Eberron.
Runepriest
05-19-07, 11:22 PM Drow and aquatic elf are the only subraces that make sense to use.
Bluebrush
05-20-07, 10:14 AM I think Valenar Elves do have Ranger as a Favored Class.Nope. Nowhere official. Just every so often we get a thread where someone complains that Valenar should have Ranger as a favoured class, Valenar shouldn't have a -2 to Constitution, Valenar should be wood elves, etcetera etcetera.

Favoured classes seem to reflect something innate about the races themselves. Dwarves are naturally good warriors, Gnomes naturally good with illusions and social manipulation, halflings are naturally good at being sneaky... and so fourth.

So valenar, being elves, have an innate knack for magic. Thus Wizard as a favoured class.

That said, they aren't exactly penalised for taking other classes (Beyond basic faults with the Elf racial design) so it's not really going to be a problem unless someone plans to multiclass away from being a ranger.

Now... if you really want to have a different favoured class, there's a feat in Unearthed arcana which basically allows you to choose an additional favoured class, regardless of your race.

If you especially want houserules, I saw one I kind of liked a while ago:

Each race gets a favoured "Spellcaster" class and "warriror" class.
So under this system, using Eberron as a basline, Half-Orcs have Barabarian and Druid as favoured Classes, Gnomes get Bard and Rogue, Dwarves get Fighter and Artificer, Halflings get Rogue and Druid and Elves get Wizard and Ranger.
Warforged would get Fighter and Artificer, Changelings would get Rogue and Bard, Shifters would get Ranger and Druid and Kalashtar would get Psion and Soulknife.

Though these examples are kind of iffy (They suggest "societal" favoured classes rahter than the innate favoured classes of the baseline races) it's something you could suggest to your DM.
Teron Gorefiend
05-20-07, 11:58 PM As Keith Baker is fond of saying, "favoured class" really amounts to "favoured multiclass". In the Valenar's (and to a lesser extent, the Khorvairian elves') case, "favoured class: wizard" means they have a knack for mixing a bit of magic with their other, often martial skills. That seems perfect to me.
tallric_kruush
05-21-07, 08:50 AM Nope. Nowhere official.

Yes, you're right. I had thought RoE made it official, but I was mistaken. I also felt like it was somewhat implied by the "Region of Origin" section of the ECS. The only class listed under Valenar is Ranger, presumably making it the most common. The only PrC created for the group was also obviously aimed at Rangers.

All that said, you're point concerning Favored Classes is absolutely correct. Having Wizard as a Favored Class doesn't limit the Valenar elf's ability to pursue Ranger levels. I just made an assumption, is all.:embarrass ;)

If we bothered with Favored Classes in our games, I'd definitely houserule the Valenar as Rangers. Millenia of life spent in this lifestyle should have left them at least as suited to Ranger as to Wizard. Then, adding the cultural perspective as well, I can't see them not having Ranger as their F.Class.
Captain_Kobold
05-21-07, 09:11 AM If we bothered with Favored Classes in our games, I'd definitely houserule the Valenar as Rangers. Millenia of life spent in this lifestyle should have left them at least as suited to Ranger as to Wizard. Then, adding the cultural perspective as well, I can't see them not having Ranger as their F.Class.

Hmmm. How many millenia have the Valenar elves spent in this lifestyle in your setting?

I think the point about 'favored multiclass' is a good one. While there may be more rangers in valenar than wizards, the natural elven leaning towards scholarly magic means that there are lots of Rangers around with just one or two levels of wizard.
tallric_kruush
05-22-07, 08:08 PM Hmmm. How many millenia have the Valenar elves spent in this lifestyle in your setting?

Many millenia. ;) Valenar is a nation made up of the Valaes Tairn. They are only one sect (the largest) of the Tairnadal. I wasn't implying the nation of Valenar has been around millenia, but rather that the Tairnadal have been.

It would seem to be that the Tairnadal have followed their particular path as long as the rest of the Aereni have followed their unique faith. I base this on impressions from the few appearances they've made in supplements (RoE, PGtE, ECS, etc...) and articles (Dragonshards). They even made a brief appearance in the novel "The Crimson Talisman". The sources all seemed consistent.

According to the Dragonshards article I linked below they have been following their current philosophy for at least 25,000 years. Much, much longer is implied. Again, it would seem to have developed alongside the beliefs of the rest of the Aereni.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20041004a

As to points you made about Favored Classes-- I can't disagree. I've never liked the mechanic, but it really doesn't hurt the typical Valenar Ranger/Melee-class PC. He or she likely doesn't need to utilize multiple base classes, anyway. PrCs don't count toward multiclassing, so--why bother changing the mechanic of the Favored Class at all? No good reason, I guess. Just my gut telling me it fits. Then again, Wizard seems to fit elves pretty well, too, doesn't it!?! :)

I think it was Keith's goal to tamper with core DnD rules as little as possible. Thus the lack of subraces, the standard Favored Classes, etc... there was no reason to change them, so why would the team do so?
mhacdebhandia
05-22-07, 08:24 PM I just don't use favoured classes - more accurately, I don't use multiclassing penalties.
tallric_kruush
05-22-07, 08:30 PM I just don't use favoured classes - more accurately, I don't use multiclassing penalties.

Neither do we. It seems an unnecessary restriction on creativity, to me. We don't have guys trying to build the CharOps supercheese either, though. I guess the rule is of greater import when your PC has picked-up a level in his fourth base class. If we ever started seeing unrealistic builds, we might put it in place. Come to think of it, we multiclass less than most other groups I've seen. We play a lot of gestalt characters, though, so there's rarely a need.
Edymnion
05-22-07, 09:46 PM I just don't use favoured classes - more accurately, I don't use multiclassing penalties.So, is there any reason every Lawful melee character in your game doesn't have at least one level of Monk?
mhacdebhandia
05-23-07, 09:45 PM It wouldn't bother me if they did - but the real answer is more along the lines of "Because the characters weren't trained as monks". Concept coming before mechanics, an idea with which I'm confident you're familiar.

I'd actually be fairly pleased if the fighter in my current party sought out monastic combat training - I'm quite fond of the trope of warriors seeking out the secrets of esoteric fighting schools, and it would be very interesting personally for the fighter to take that path, just because of the changes it would mean for his character's personality and outlook on life.
Alex_
05-24-07, 12:20 PM So, is there any reason every Lawful melee character in your game doesn't have at least one level of Monk?

I don't enforce multi-class or even class restriction penalties, and I don't really have this problem.

I also use the Unarmored AC bonus, with the Monk's Wisdom bonus only applying if you use the Monk's AC bonus. Fighters and Barbarians generally have a higher one.

The only reason they'd go levels in monk was for he extra skill points, saves, and unarmed damage, at the expense of higher AC, BaB, feats, and other class abilities, none of which are really game breakers considering how much melee characters tend to get their rears handed to them compared to casters.

Makes melee characters in my games more Tome of Battle-ish without actually using the Tome of Battle.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Irian 05-19-07, 02:55 AM	Ok, ok, subraces are cheesy. BUT. Do the favored classes of the standard races make sense for all the different backgrounds of Eberron? How about giving Valenar Elves Ranger as favored class etc.? Opinions?
Vharuck 05-19-07, 08:41 AM	Favored classes don't always have to be decided or influenced by the societal structure. Maybe elves have wizard as a favored class because they seem naturally talented with magic. It's simpler for them to learn wizardry.
tallric_kruush 05-19-07, 02:07 PM	Ok, ok, subraces are cheesy. BUT. Do the favored classes of the standard races make sense for all the different backgrounds of Eberron? How about giving Valenar Elves Ranger as favored class etc.? Opinions? I think Valenar Elves do have Ranger as a Favored Class. Your reasoning is solid; and though it at gimps the human (and half-elves) in the minds of some, we generally dispense with the favored race/mutliclassing penalties in our games. We feel you should able to play the character you truly want to play, without huge XP penalties. Also, Valenar aren't a subrace, just a society within a race. I don't think you were implying that they were, though. Subraces aren't always cheesy. They are an integral part of FR, for instance. In Eberron, however, we allow only the Drow subrace. The rest aren't canon, and don't fit our subrace-free vision of Eberron.
Runepriest 05-19-07, 11:22 PM	Drow and aquatic elf are the only subraces that make sense to use.
Bluebrush 05-20-07, 10:14 AM	I think Valenar Elves do have Ranger as a Favored Class.Nope. Nowhere official. Just every so often we get a thread where someone complains that Valenar should have Ranger as a favoured class, Valenar shouldn't have a -2 to Constitution, Valenar should be wood elves, etcetera etcetera. Favoured classes seem to reflect something innate about the races themselves. Dwarves are naturally good warriors, Gnomes naturally good with illusions and social manipulation, halflings are naturally good at being sneaky... and so fourth. So valenar, being elves, have an innate knack for magic. Thus Wizard as a favoured class. That said, they aren't exactly penalised for taking other classes (Beyond basic faults with the Elf racial design) so it's not really going to be a problem unless someone plans to multiclass away from being a ranger. Now... if you really want to have a different favoured class, there's a feat in Unearthed arcana which basically allows you to choose an additional favoured class, regardless of your race. If you especially want houserules, I saw one I kind of liked a while ago: Each race gets a favoured "Spellcaster" class and "warriror" class. So under this system, using Eberron as a basline, Half-Orcs have Barabarian and Druid as favoured Classes, Gnomes get Bard and Rogue, Dwarves get Fighter and Artificer, Halflings get Rogue and Druid and Elves get Wizard and Ranger. Warforged would get Fighter and Artificer, Changelings would get Rogue and Bard, Shifters would get Ranger and Druid and Kalashtar would get Psion and Soulknife. Though these examples are kind of iffy (They suggest "societal" favoured classes rahter than the innate favoured classes of the baseline races) it's something you could suggest to your DM.
Teron Gorefiend 05-20-07, 11:58 PM	As Keith Baker is fond of saying, "favoured class" really amounts to "favoured multiclass". In the Valenar's (and to a lesser extent, the Khorvairian elves') case, "favoured class: wizard" means they have a knack for mixing a bit of magic with their other, often martial skills. That seems perfect to me.
tallric_kruush 05-21-07, 08:50 AM	Nope. Nowhere official. Yes, you're right. I had thought RoE made it official, but I was mistaken. I also felt like it was somewhat implied by the "Region of Origin" section of the ECS. The only class listed under Valenar is Ranger, presumably making it the most common. The only PrC created for the group was also obviously aimed at Rangers. All that said, you're point concerning Favored Classes is absolutely correct. Having Wizard as a Favored Class doesn't limit the Valenar elf's ability to pursue Ranger levels. I just made an assumption, is all.:embarrass ;) If we bothered with Favored Classes in our games, I'd definitely houserule the Valenar as Rangers. Millenia of life spent in this lifestyle should have left them at least as suited to Ranger as to Wizard. Then, adding the cultural perspective as well, I can't see them not having Ranger as their F.Class.
Captain_Kobold 05-21-07, 09:11 AM	If we bothered with Favored Classes in our games, I'd definitely houserule the Valenar as Rangers. Millenia of life spent in this lifestyle should have left them at least as suited to Ranger as to Wizard. Then, adding the cultural perspective as well, I can't see them not having Ranger as their F.Class. Hmmm. How many millenia have the Valenar elves spent in this lifestyle in your setting? I think the point about 'favored multiclass' is a good one. While there may be more rangers in valenar than wizards, the natural elven leaning towards scholarly magic means that there are lots of Rangers around with just one or two levels of wizard.
tallric_kruush 05-22-07, 08:08 PM	Hmmm. How many millenia have the Valenar elves spent in this lifestyle in your setting? Many millenia. ;) Valenar is a nation made up of the Valaes Tairn. They are only one sect (the largest) of the Tairnadal. I wasn't implying the nation of Valenar has been around millenia, but rather that the Tairnadal have been. It would seem to be that the Tairnadal have followed their particular path as long as the rest of the Aereni have followed their unique faith. I base this on impressions from the few appearances they've made in supplements (RoE, PGtE, ECS, etc...) and articles (Dragonshards). They even made a brief appearance in the novel "The Crimson Talisman". The sources all seemed consistent. According to the Dragonshards article I linked below they have been following their current philosophy for at least 25,000 years. Much, much longer is implied. Again, it would seem to have developed alongside the beliefs of the rest of the Aereni. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20041004a As to points you made about Favored Classes-- I can't disagree. I've never liked the mechanic, but it really doesn't hurt the typical Valenar Ranger/Melee-class PC. He or she likely doesn't need to utilize multiple base classes, anyway. PrCs don't count toward multiclassing, so--why bother changing the mechanic of the Favored Class at all? No good reason, I guess. Just my gut telling me it fits. Then again, Wizard seems to fit elves pretty well, too, doesn't it!?! :) I think it was Keith's goal to tamper with core DnD rules as little as possible. Thus the lack of subraces, the standard Favored Classes, etc... there was no reason to change them, so why would the team do so?
mhacdebhandia 05-22-07, 08:24 PM	I just don't use favoured classes - more accurately, I don't use multiclassing penalties.
tallric_kruush 05-22-07, 08:30 PM	I just don't use favoured classes - more accurately, I don't use multiclassing penalties. Neither do we. It seems an unnecessary restriction on creativity, to me. We don't have guys trying to build the CharOps supercheese either, though. I guess the rule is of greater import when your PC has picked-up a level in his fourth base class. If we ever started seeing unrealistic builds, we might put it in place. Come to think of it, we multiclass less than most other groups I've seen. We play a lot of gestalt characters, though, so there's rarely a need.
Edymnion 05-22-07, 09:46 PM	I just don't use favoured classes - more accurately, I don't use multiclassing penalties.So, is there any reason every Lawful melee character in your game doesn't have at least one level of Monk?
mhacdebhandia 05-23-07, 09:45 PM	It wouldn't bother me if they did - but the real answer is more along the lines of "Because the characters weren't trained as monks". Concept coming before mechanics, an idea with which I'm confident you're familiar. I'd actually be fairly pleased if the fighter in my current party sought out monastic combat training - I'm quite fond of the trope of warriors seeking out the secrets of esoteric fighting schools, and it would be very interesting personally for the fighter to take that path, just because of the changes it would mean for his character's personality and outlook on life.
Alex_ 05-24-07, 12:20 PM	So, is there any reason every Lawful melee character in your game doesn't have at least one level of Monk? I don't enforce multi-class or even class restriction penalties, and I don't really have this problem. I also use the Unarmored AC bonus, with the Monk's Wisdom bonus only applying if you use the Monk's AC bonus. Fighters and Barbarians generally have a higher one. The only reason they'd go levels in monk was for he extra skill points, saves, and unarmed damage, at the expense of higher AC, BaB, feats, and other class abilities, none of which are really game breakers considering how much melee characters tend to get their rears handed to them compared to casters. Makes melee characters in my games more Tome of Battle-ish without actually using the Tome of Battle.