Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Esgay 07-04-07, 03:31 PM	I was thinking of running with a whole xoriat invasion type scenarion in my campaign and I was thinking, if the PCS fail to stop the rampaging hordes of abberations in Korth and stop the summoning of a Daelkyr, would there be any hope? Could the King or Karrnath save the day? Assuming the bone knights and assorted undead hold off the lesser abberation, the dolgaunt, dolgrims, mob the mindflayers and overpower the beholders all that is left in the ruined town center is the king, Kaius the third and a daelkyr, complete with symbionts straight out of the ECS, who would win? Pros for Kaius Immunities - he's undead so he's imune to most of what the daelkyr can throw at him insanity, confustion, madness - immune to mind altering effects corrupting touch - immune to ability damage also immune to crits, poisons etc, etc, Vampire abilities - fast healing, alternate form, DR, etc. if he dies he will return to his coffin and be ready to try again fairly soon Level drain- a few slams could severely weaken the daelkyr. money - better than average gear power - if things get tough he can call on some lesser undead troops to assault the Daelkyr while he regenerates some health or drains some blood. Crits - while Kaius is immune to critical hits, the Daelkyr is not, chances are he will score at least one or two. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Pros for the Daelkyr better stats - more HP, better attack bonus, better saves. better minions - mind flayers and beholders are a lot more powerful than the troops Kaius has at his disposal even if they are less numerous quickened polymorph any object- the only spell that will affect kaius since it affects objects as well, with a save of 27, the king needs at least a 12 to save, luckily he has 3 action points to help out, if he can resist it 3 times or attack when the Daelkyr has used them all up he should be o.k Vampire weaknesses; if the Daelkyr knows about these and somehow manages to get his hand on some garlic, a holy symbol or a mirror :confused: it could hamper Kaius greatly. --------------------------------------------------------- My personal opinion- Kais wins the day, he has more options available to him in this fight, he's on home ground and is immune to the majority of the Daelkyr's spell like abilities, he may be the only person on eberron who would stand a chance to win 1 on 1 with a daelkyr. undead are the natural enemies of the daelkyr and with the wealth and power of a country behind him Kaius may just be able to win the day, a few hits with his energy drain will soon shut the Daelkyr down seeing as it isn't immune to negative levels Have I missed anything or is the King a good contingent plan to stop the world being completely overrun by madness in our campaign?
gleicher27 07-04-07, 04:08 PM	If it is a straight out Dealkyr, I am voting for them... Kauis is powerful, but he is not a living legend like the Dealkyr.
Revvecor 07-04-07, 04:17 PM	The side of King Kaius would definitely win against a single Daelkyr in a battle between there forces. This would happen because it is not just the people of Karrnath that would be fighting the beings from Xoriat, but also the Gate keepers and there allies. Not to mention the Lords of Dust, The Blood of Vol & the Dreaming Dark who's plans would contradict the plans of Daelkyr thus causing conflicts to arise. In the case of single combat between Kaius and a Daelkyr(from the ECS) I would think it would be a close match and would come down to preparation. If there were either more than one Daelkyr or a more powerful Daelkyr then mentioned in the ECS then King Kaius and his country would be destroyed without the help of several powerful allies.
Cifer 07-04-07, 04:46 PM	I'd assume the Daelkyr would win - possibly not the one-on-one fight, but the whole battle. Kaius has still too few troops immune against mind-affecting spells - if the Daelkyr draws out the fight between them for a little time, the beholders, illithids and other stuff would probably lay waste to Kaius' troops. And for him, well, imagine about five beholders hovering closeby giving him a desintegrate ray every single round of the combat.
Edymnion 07-04-07, 07:13 PM	I was thinking of running with a whole xoriat invasion type scenarion in my campaign and I was thinking, if the PCS fail to stop the rampaging hordes of abberations in Korth and stop the summoning of a Daelkyr, would there be any hope?IMO, one of the best parts of Eberron is that, if the PCs fail, there is no safety net. Nobody else is going to swoop in and save the day. The PCs are the heroes, and they are the world's only hope. So, based off that, I would say no. If the PCs can't handle the thing, then nobody can, the world is screwed.
Shadowkire 07-04-07, 10:59 PM	I think that Kaius would win, like you said the only special ability that the daelkyr have on him is the polymorph, but with his fast regeneration and such would win out in a one on one. when not in a one on one fight I think that kaius would still win, his aunt/niece Moranna(something like that) is a vampire aswell so she will be really helpful, in addition to that almost all the most dangerous abilities of aberrations dont work on the undead and Karrnath has armies of zombies and skeletons. IMO the only chance the daelkyr would have against Kaius is a huge surprise attack or an overwhelming horde of monsters, anything less would be shut down by undead immunities.
Candide 07-05-07, 12:45 AM	Keith Baker in the "Rakshasa Rajah" thread said that the daelkyr statted in the ECS is one of the lesser ones, that there are more powerful ones that exist. My vote is for the Daelkyr, eventhough Kaius has a lot of immunities. We know what Kaius is capable of stat-wise, other than the minor daelkyr, we have no idea what the daelkyr "lord" would be capable of. However, Boranel would kill them both with a roundhouse kick
ChristopherGroves 07-05-07, 10:18 AM	Deja vu? Got to find that old thread ...
Revvecor 07-05-07, 10:19 AM	However, Boranel would kill them both with a roundhouse kick Well of course!:w00t:
Darakhoranon 07-05-07, 10:34 AM	What? You´re saying Boranel would need a roundhouse kick? Hello! We´re talking about KING BORANEL here! He´d just snap his fingers and the dealkyr would keel over just because of Boranel´s awesomeness...
Revvecor 07-05-07, 10:40 AM	What? You´re saying Boranel would need a roundhouse kick? Hello! We´re talking about KING BORANEL here! He´d just snap his fingers and the dealkyr would keel over just because of Boranel´s awesomeness... Well King Boranel stroking his beard LOOKED like a roundhouse kick to those around him, when in reality the mere stroking of his beard destroyed both the dealkyr's mind and reverted King Kaius back to being human.
The Brat Prince 07-05-07, 12:39 PM	Well King Boranel stroking his beard LOOKED like a roundhouse kick to those around him, when in reality the mere stroking of his beard destroyed both the dealkyr's mind and reverted King Kaius back to being human. I leave the boards for a few weeks and all of the sudden King Boranel's become Chuck Norris? What'd I miss? Anyhow, I'm pretty sure that the Daelkyr would probably win, though that's not to say it wouldn't be a total knock-down drag-out. It would take awhile, but somehow the 'kyr would get hte upper hand over everyone's favorite vampire and the Karrnath would be royally screwed. That is until the PC's show up and save the day.
Cifer 07-05-07, 01:29 PM	and the Karrnath would be royally screwed. Oooh, bad puns abroad. Still, I'd foresee the Daelkyr to win. While some of its servants are more in the mind-affecting and ability-draining business, there's still a fair number left with raw combat prowess, beginning with the Athach, going over Chuul, Delver and Dolgrim/-gaunt and ending with Umber Hulks.
Bluebrush 07-05-07, 03:55 PM	Also, don't forget that as an outsider, the Daelkyr gets to reappear on his plane of origin, sooner or later, and try again. And Kaius is screwed if he's killed for good.
Cifer 07-05-07, 05:22 PM	Also, don't forget that as an outsider, the Daelkyr gets to reappear on his plane of origin, sooner or later, and try again. Of course, that would basically be winning - Xoriat is permanently remote, so as long as he didn't break too many seals when becoming free, he won't come back any time soon. And Kaius is screwed if he's killed for good. He's a vampire. As long as he has his nice and comfy coffin, he's back sooner than the Daelkyr is.
Edymnion 07-05-07, 05:51 PM	:uh-huh: Yeah, apparently I missed the memo that said King Boranel = Chuck Norris.
Bluebrush 07-05-07, 07:40 PM	I leave the boards for a few weeks and all of the sudden King Boranel's become Chuck Norris? What'd I miss?Chuck can only wish he could be like King Boranel. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=876109)
Bluebrush 07-05-07, 07:43 PM	Of course, that would basically be winning - Xoriat is permanently remote, so as long as he didn't break too many seals when becoming free, he won't come back any time soon.Well, if it got out the first time, just killing it won't solve the problem. Kaius better have a plan to keep them in Xoriat or be willing to do it again once he does. He's a vampire. As long as he has his nice and comfy coffin, he's back sooner than the Daelkyr is.And that's a pretty important if. You can't kill a Daelkyr permanantly, but the ability and knowledge to kill a vampire exists.
yrogerg 07-05-07, 07:59 PM	Pros for Kaius Immunities - he's undead so he's imune to most of what the daelkyr can throw at him insanity, confustion, madness - immune to mind altering effects corrupting touch - immune to ability damage also immune to crits, poisons etc, etc, It's worth nothing that you overlooked something here: Undead are immune to a)Ability drain and b)Ability damage, but only to physical abilities (STR and DEX, specifically, since Undead have no CON) Now normally, most means of damaging mental ability scores fall under the umbrella of one of the other immunities that undead have (poisons, mind affecting, etc, etc, etc). However, this is not the case for Corrupting Touch. A few hits to any of Kaius's mental stats would drop him right good. And it's hard to believe that a thousands-years-old Daelkyr -or its hordes of minions- has never encountered an undead before, if even simply in the preceding battle.
ChristopherGroves 07-05-07, 08:46 PM	I keep googling for the old link. Everything that is happening has happened before.
ArcTan 07-05-07, 09:10 PM	The side of King Kaius would definitely win against a single Daelkyr in a battle between there forces. This would happen because it is not just the people of Karrnath that would be fighting the beings from Xoriat, but also the Gate keepers and there allies. Not to mention the Lords of Dust, The Blood of Vol & the Dreaming Dark who's plans would contradict the plans of Daelkyr thus causing conflicts to arise. In the case of single combat between Kaius and a Daelkyr(from the ECS) I would think it would be a close match and would come down to preparation. If there were either more than one Daelkyr or a more powerful Daelkyr then mentioned in the ECS then King Kaius and his country would be destroyed without the help of several powerful allies. It doesn't work like that. King Kaius vs. Daelkyr means King Kaius vs. Daelkyr, *not* King Kaius + Every Conceivable Entity Who'd Ever Have a Reason to Help Kaius or Oppose the Daelkyr vs. Daelkyr. If it's an army-vs-army rather than mano-a-mano battle, Kaius loses. There are hordes and hordes of aberrations in the Underdark ruled by the Daelkyr. Even a lesser one probably has armies of Dolgrims and Dolgaunts ruled by several Illithid generals under his command. Sorry, but in a "Replay the Daelkyr Invasion" scenario, things don't look good for Khorvaire. Remember that the Daelkyr successfully destroyed a far more unified and disciplined martial civilization, the Dhakaani Empire, when they first came to Eberron. And that most of the higher-up powers you mention -- the Lords of Dust, the Quori, etc. -- did *nothing* (that we know of) to stop it. And the Gatekeepers are far fewer in number and weaker now than they were when they first stopped the Daelkyr, and even then they did it through some kind of binding magic rather than raw force. A new Daelkyr invasion will be stopped the way the first one was stopped -- by some kind of adventure by a band of PCs to get some kind of McGuffin. Militarily, Khorvaire doesn't have a chance (and isn't meant to, or else there'd be no reason for that PC adventure). If we're talking Kaius-on-Daelkyr directly, my money's on the Daelkyr, who can drain any of Kaius' stats to oblivion. That's even assuming we're only using the ECS Daelkyr, whom Keith Baker has said is meant to be a lesser Daelkyr (suitable for high-level PCs to be able to fight and defeat) and is, unrealistically, presented without gear appropriate to its CR.
yrogerg 07-05-07, 11:11 PM	I keep googling for the old link. Everything that is happening has happened before. Well, yeah. I found the old link briefly, and felt like fast-fowarding the conversation a bit.
Hellcow 07-06-07, 08:18 AM	For those of you who are wondering, the "greater daelkyr" being mentioned are described in the Khyber section of the Player's Guide to Eberron - IE they aren't purely some figment of my deranged imagination. They don't have stats, but they are certainly more on the level of an archfiend than the daelkyr from the ECS. Essentially, the ECS daelkyr is a general, but these are the princes and kings.
Kreistor2 07-06-07, 02:33 PM	Kaius is not immune to the Daelkyr's Corrupting Touch, if the Touch targets Int, Wis, or Cha. This will kill Kaius in only a few rounds. Further, the Daelkyr has Combat Expertise, which stacks with Fighting Defensively (+3 due to Tumble), making his AC a whoping 43. Kaius has a Slam at +20 (which only hits on a natural 20) and a Sword at +22 (again only hitting on a 20). Keeping the sword is problematic, since the Daelkyr's tentacles give it +4 to Disarm, if the Daelkyr ever cares enough to bother (1-handed in Kaius' stat block). To Blood Drain, Kaius needs to win two Grapple checks. He's at a +18 vs. +26. Just not that likely to ever happen. On the other hand, the Daelkyr is tentacle +27 vs AC 42 (included dodge), hitting on a 15. He also gets 4 attacks to Kaius' 3, meaning he also wins the law of averages for getting a natural 20 on the iterative attacks. [Edit... forgot the -5 for Combat Expertise. So it's 4 attacks at 20 to hit vs. 3 attacks at 20 to hit. If the sword is eliminated, then it becomes 18.] And, to end it all... The Daelkyr as described is not yet equipped. Kaius is. The DM is free to add 100's of K's of GP worth of gear to the Daelkyr beyond the symbionts listed. In short... The Daelkyr should win 90-95% of the time. Only if Kaius nails a 20 in the first round does he stand a chance. Oh, and what exactly happens to a Vampire drained to 0 Wisdom? Ever wondered? It's not HP damage, so the vampire does not turn to gaseous form, and he doesn't die, since on Con 0 kills. Kaius, if he loses, is a vegetable until his coffin is found, or forever, however the Daelkyr wants to do it.