Cull wand essence [Archive] - Wizards Community

Cull wand essence [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
artificerrocks
06-14-07, 10:02 PM ok. i have searched throughout these forums and looked for errata of which i have found none to answer my question.

Question- Cull wand essence says "When using a spell trigger device, such as a wand or staff, you can expend a charge from the device and produce a ray of magical energy that you can fire at a single target within 60ft. With a successful ranged touch attack, the ray deals (d)amage based on the level of the spell normaly produced by the magic item, according to the table below.

spell lvl damage
1st 1d6
2nd 3d6
3rd 9d6
4th 10d6

For example a charge from a wand of cure moderate wounds could be used to deal 3d6 points of damage to a target.
This attack benefits from Weapon focus (ranged spells) and similar feats and effects. The ray is treated as a spell of the same level as the spell normally produced by the magic item. Spell resistance applies to the damage, using the caster level of the spell trigger item."

OK, my question is, it specificaly states you can use staffs. Staffs can have 5th and higher level spells. How much damage do 5th - 9th lvl spells cause? Can you use the different level spells on your staff to do different strength rays? For example an artificer scoops up a staff of the woodlands, activates it, and culls the essence for the spell Summon natures ally Vi ( which costs 3 charges on the staff). the next turn he thinks his target is nearly dead so he only cull's a barkskin ( 1 charge for 3d6 damage)

Please someone explain, and please sight sorces if you have any.

i noticed the progression of damage is equal to the level of spell you add.

so would 5th level be 15d6, 6th be 21d6, 7th be 28d6, 8 be 36d6, and 9th be 45d6? also i would assume that for a staff what ever that spell usualy cost in charges to cast it would also cost to cull it's essence.
kentonblack
06-17-07, 12:51 AM best guess?; I wouldnt extrapolate the rules to deal exponential damage(or arithmetic or whatever thet number sequence of ad (n-1)+n=(n+1)) but rather I would just cap it at 10d6, not use staves because they would sack a high level charge to deal only ten dice, and leave it at that.

RAW? havent the faintest. Im pretty up to date with the rules(reading the articles on the website, dragon/dungeon, conversing in the forum) and I havent seen mention of that specific feat.
artificerrocks
06-20-07, 10:48 AM RAW? where and what do you mean by this.
TiwazTyrsfist
06-20-07, 01:13 PM RAW means Read As Written, or something similar.

I would say that yes, the effect would progress in the same fasion, to 15, 21, 28, 36, 45.

For comparison purposes, from the SpComp, Sphere of Ultimate Distruction. Creates a shpere you control, that at level 20 lasts for 20 rounds, and does 40d6 damage to anyone it hits, and anyone it kills is disintigrated, requiring true resurection to restore.

So, 45d6, which sounds a bit crazy, is perfectly acceptable in my book for a ranged touch single target damage spell with no secondary effect.
skeeter_dan
06-20-07, 04:03 PM Personally, I'd go with the RAW and assume that you cannot use cull wand essence on a spell higher than fourth level.
Shady314
06-20-07, 05:06 PM RAW means Read As Written, or something similar.
Close.
Rules as written (though what you do is read the rules as written). It refers simply to the canonical literal interpretation of rules based on a strict reading of whatever is in question. For example by the RAW Vol cannot be a lich because she's a half dragon and does not qualify for the lich template. So this means you make her a draco-lich instead or you accept she's an exception to the regular rules. If you stick around Artificerrocks you'll see it and many other acronyms used all the time.

I too would say the damage caps at the 4th level. This means you wouldn't WANT to use it with staffs but you COULD if you were desperate.
Michael_Silverforge
06-26-07, 10:43 AM When first looking at this I would have to agree with kentonblack and Shady314, and say the damage would be capped at 10d6 (so the table should probably read ‘4th and higher 10d6’). The advantage you would get with a staff as opposed to a wand is the higher caster level for overcoming Spell Resistance, since wands and staffs are generally made at their minimum caster levels, the maximum level for a wand would be 7th, the minimum for a staff is 8th and goes up to 17th (Staff of Passage).

However, in support of TiwazTyrsfist, if you assume the arithmetic progression you suggested, 15d6 for 5th level spells, 21d6 for 6th, 28d6 for 7th, 36d6 for 8th, and 45d6 for 9th, you could make a reasonable argument for that progression if you look at the cost per d6 of damage.

Taking the market price of a wand and dividing by the number of charges (50) you get the following cost per charge for a wand:

1st level spell wand 15 gp/charge
2nd level spell wand: 90 gp/charge
3rd level spell wand: 225 gp/charge
4th level spell wand 420 gp/charge

Dividing the cost/charge by the number of d6 of damage for the Cull Wand Essence feat, you get:

1st level spell wand: 15 gp/d6 (15/1)
2nd level spell wand: 30gp/d6 (90/3)
3rd level spell wand: 37.5gp/d6 (225/6)
4th level spell wand: 42gp/d6 (420/10)

If you were to run this progression out for 5th through 9th level spells you would expect something close to ‘spell level x 10gp/d6’, or for your progression you would expect a cost per use of approximately:

5th level spell: 750 gp/use (5x10x15)
6th level spell: 1,260 gp/use (6x10x21)
7th level spell: 1,960 gp/use (7x10x28)
8th level spell: 2,880 gp/use (8x10x36)
9th level spell: 4,050 gp/use (9x10x45)

Now let’s look at the cost/use for 6th level and above spells from staves:

The only 9th level spell from the DMG listed staves is Astral Projection from the Staff of Passage: The price of the staff is 170,500, dividing by the number of charges yields 3,410 gp/charge and since it takes 2 charges to use Astral Projection the cost per use is 6,820 which is actually higher than our estimated projection.

The only 8th level spell from the DMG listed staves is Shield of Law from the Staff of Defense: The price is 58,250, divided by 50 = 1,165 gp/charge, 3 charges to use Shield of Law = 3,495 gp/use, again higher than projected

The 7th level spells from the DMG listed staves are:
Phase Door and Teleport, Greater from the Staff of Passage = (170,500/50 x 2) = 6,820 gp/use (same as Astral Projection from above),
Resurrection from the Staff of Life (155,750/50 x 5) = 15,575 gp/use, and
Animate Plants from the Staff of the Woodlands (101,250/50 x 4) = 8,020 gp/use
Again, all higher than projected.

The 6th level spells from the DMG listed staves are:
Move Earth from the Staff of Earth and Stone (80,500/50 x 1) = 1,610 gp/use,
Heal from the Staff of Life (155,750/50 x 1) = 3,115 gp/use,
Globe of Invulnerability from the Staff of Power (211,000/50 x 2) = 8,440 gp/use,
Summon Nature’s Ally VI from the Staff of the Woodlands (101,250/50 x 3) = 6,015 gp/use, and
Each of the ‘Magic School’ (Abjuration, Conjuration, Divination, Enchantment, Evocation, Illusion, Necromancy, and Transmutation) Staves has a 6th level spell (65,000/50 x 3) = 3,900 gp/use
Again, all higher than projected.

I leave the 5th level spell and lower analysis in your capable hands. So, based on the above info, you could make a credible argument to your DM for your arithmetic progression of damage for 5th through 9th level spells from staves.
artificerrocks
07-06-07, 10:28 AM bump
artificerrocks
08-31-07, 07:38 PM bump2

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
artificerrocks 06-14-07, 10:02 PM	ok. i have searched throughout these forums and looked for errata of which i have found none to answer my question. Question- Cull wand essence says "When using a spell trigger device, such as a wand or staff, you can expend a charge from the device and produce a ray of magical energy that you can fire at a single target within 60ft. With a successful ranged touch attack, the ray deals (d)amage based on the level of the spell normaly produced by the magic item, according to the table below. spell lvl damage 1st 1d6 2nd 3d6 3rd 9d6 4th 10d6 For example a charge from a wand of cure moderate wounds could be used to deal 3d6 points of damage to a target. This attack benefits from Weapon focus (ranged spells) and similar feats and effects. The ray is treated as a spell of the same level as the spell normally produced by the magic item. Spell resistance applies to the damage, using the caster level of the spell trigger item." OK, my question is, it specificaly states you can use staffs. Staffs can have 5th and higher level spells. How much damage do 5th - 9th lvl spells cause? Can you use the different level spells on your staff to do different strength rays? For example an artificer scoops up a staff of the woodlands, activates it, and culls the essence for the spell Summon natures ally Vi ( which costs 3 charges on the staff). the next turn he thinks his target is nearly dead so he only cull's a barkskin ( 1 charge for 3d6 damage) Please someone explain, and please sight sorces if you have any. i noticed the progression of damage is equal to the level of spell you add. so would 5th level be 15d6, 6th be 21d6, 7th be 28d6, 8 be 36d6, and 9th be 45d6? also i would assume that for a staff what ever that spell usualy cost in charges to cast it would also cost to cull it's essence.
kentonblack 06-17-07, 12:51 AM	best guess?; I wouldnt extrapolate the rules to deal exponential damage(or arithmetic or whatever thet number sequence of ad (n-1)+n=(n+1)) but rather I would just cap it at 10d6, not use staves because they would sack a high level charge to deal only ten dice, and leave it at that. RAW? havent the faintest. Im pretty up to date with the rules(reading the articles on the website, dragon/dungeon, conversing in the forum) and I havent seen mention of that specific feat.
artificerrocks 06-20-07, 10:48 AM	RAW? where and what do you mean by this.
TiwazTyrsfist 06-20-07, 01:13 PM	RAW means Read As Written, or something similar. I would say that yes, the effect would progress in the same fasion, to 15, 21, 28, 36, 45. For comparison purposes, from the SpComp, Sphere of Ultimate Distruction. Creates a shpere you control, that at level 20 lasts for 20 rounds, and does 40d6 damage to anyone it hits, and anyone it kills is disintigrated, requiring true resurection to restore. So, 45d6, which sounds a bit crazy, is perfectly acceptable in my book for a ranged touch single target damage spell with no secondary effect.
skeeter_dan 06-20-07, 04:03 PM	Personally, I'd go with the RAW and assume that you cannot use cull wand essence on a spell higher than fourth level.
Shady314 06-20-07, 05:06 PM	RAW means Read As Written, or something similar. Close. Rules as written (though what you do is read the rules as written). It refers simply to the canonical literal interpretation of rules based on a strict reading of whatever is in question. For example by the RAW Vol cannot be a lich because she's a half dragon and does not qualify for the lich template. So this means you make her a draco-lich instead or you accept she's an exception to the regular rules. If you stick around Artificerrocks you'll see it and many other acronyms used all the time. I too would say the damage caps at the 4th level. This means you wouldn't WANT to use it with staffs but you COULD if you were desperate.
Michael_Silverforge 06-26-07, 10:43 AM	When first looking at this I would have to agree with kentonblack and Shady314, and say the damage would be capped at 10d6 (so the table should probably read ‘4th and higher 10d6’). The advantage you would get with a staff as opposed to a wand is the higher caster level for overcoming Spell Resistance, since wands and staffs are generally made at their minimum caster levels, the maximum level for a wand would be 7th, the minimum for a staff is 8th and goes up to 17th (Staff of Passage). However, in support of TiwazTyrsfist, if you assume the arithmetic progression you suggested, 15d6 for 5th level spells, 21d6 for 6th, 28d6 for 7th, 36d6 for 8th, and 45d6 for 9th, you could make a reasonable argument for that progression if you look at the cost per d6 of damage. Taking the market price of a wand and dividing by the number of charges (50) you get the following cost per charge for a wand: 1st level spell wand 15 gp/charge 2nd level spell wand: 90 gp/charge 3rd level spell wand: 225 gp/charge 4th level spell wand 420 gp/charge Dividing the cost/charge by the number of d6 of damage for the Cull Wand Essence feat, you get: 1st level spell wand: 15 gp/d6 (15/1) 2nd level spell wand: 30gp/d6 (90/3) 3rd level spell wand: 37.5gp/d6 (225/6) 4th level spell wand: 42gp/d6 (420/10) If you were to run this progression out for 5th through 9th level spells you would expect something close to ‘spell level x 10gp/d6’, or for your progression you would expect a cost per use of approximately: 5th level spell: 750 gp/use (5x10x15) 6th level spell: 1,260 gp/use (6x10x21) 7th level spell: 1,960 gp/use (7x10x28) 8th level spell: 2,880 gp/use (8x10x36) 9th level spell: 4,050 gp/use (9x10x45) Now let’s look at the cost/use for 6th level and above spells from staves: The only 9th level spell from the DMG listed staves is Astral Projection from the Staff of Passage: The price of the staff is 170,500, dividing by the number of charges yields 3,410 gp/charge and since it takes 2 charges to use Astral Projection the cost per use is 6,820 which is actually higher than our estimated projection. The only 8th level spell from the DMG listed staves is Shield of Law from the Staff of Defense: The price is 58,250, divided by 50 = 1,165 gp/charge, 3 charges to use Shield of Law = 3,495 gp/use, again higher than projected The 7th level spells from the DMG listed staves are: Phase Door and Teleport, Greater from the Staff of Passage = (170,500/50 x 2) = 6,820 gp/use (same as Astral Projection from above), Resurrection from the Staff of Life (155,750/50 x 5) = 15,575 gp/use, and Animate Plants from the Staff of the Woodlands (101,250/50 x 4) = 8,020 gp/use Again, all higher than projected. The 6th level spells from the DMG listed staves are: Move Earth from the Staff of Earth and Stone (80,500/50 x 1) = 1,610 gp/use, Heal from the Staff of Life (155,750/50 x 1) = 3,115 gp/use, Globe of Invulnerability from the Staff of Power (211,000/50 x 2) = 8,440 gp/use, Summon Nature’s Ally VI from the Staff of the Woodlands (101,250/50 x 3) = 6,015 gp/use, and Each of the ‘Magic School’ (Abjuration, Conjuration, Divination, Enchantment, Evocation, Illusion, Necromancy, and Transmutation) Staves has a 6th level spell (65,000/50 x 3) = 3,900 gp/use Again, all higher than projected. I leave the 5th level spell and lower analysis in your capable hands. So, based on the above info, you could make a credible argument to your DM for your arithmetic progression of damage for 5th through 9th level spells from staves.
artificerrocks 07-06-07, 10:28 AM	bump
artificerrocks 08-31-07, 07:38 PM	bump2