Daelkyr-Halfblood and symbionts [Archive] - Wizards Community

Daelkyr-Halfblood and symbionts [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
OmNefarious
03-04-07, 12:15 AM I have asked before about DHB Artificers, but now I have some new questions.

-Can a DHB, as a lvl 20 Dread Necromancer, retain his symbionts when he turns into a Lich?
-How many symbionts can a DHB or any other character have?
-If it is dependent on Con, how many could a Lich have?
Moccanime
03-04-07, 12:05 PM Not a very big expert on symbionts but I try to give an answear.
- case by case. Some symbionts I would not allow a undead character use, like the Tentacle Whip, because the describtion says that it draws nutrients from the host (daily dex damage). Others I would not allow the character to use if they lacked what it is attached to, ie no tongue no tongueworm.
- no limit as long as there is room for them and you can survive whatever damage they cause. Notice that many (but not all) symbionts take up a item slot.
Cifer
03-04-07, 02:20 PM I'm going to answer purely by RAW.

-Can a DHB, as a lvl 20 Dread Necromancer, retain his symbionts when he turns into a Lich?
Yep. Symbionts have no requirements like "can be attached to living hosts only". Since there is no mentioning of "if the symbiont is incapable of inflicting ability damage, it dies." or something like that, well, lichs should have a pretty good relationship. However, they wouldn't be able to hear their symbionts talk to them, since telepathy is mindaffecting ability. They'd have to open a channel to it by a spell like Telepathic Bond.

-How many symbionts can a DHB or any other character have?
How many can you find or afford? As has been said, many of them take up item slots, so no two symbionts at the same place.

-If it is dependent on Con, how many could a Lich have?
An undead is generally assumed to have a +0 modifier in Con if the ability is vitally neccessary for something (like skills or his fort saving throw).
Warforged Goblin
03-05-07, 12:22 PM -If it is dependent on Con, how many could a Lich have?

IIRC, most abilities based off of the lich's Constitution modifier use the lich's primary spellcasting attribute, which for a dread necromancer would be Intelligence I believe.
AvonRekaes
03-05-07, 12:31 PM Actually it's always Charisma for undead. (When absolutely needed to substitute for Con, not that you get to subtitute it just cause you don't want the +0 modifier for a non-score.)
kyeudo
03-06-07, 05:32 PM Most symionts take up space on the body, but not magic item slots, since they arn't magic items.

Assuming a humanoid, you can benefit from: 2 crawling Gauntlets, only 1 breed leech (you can attach more, but they dont stack), 1 winter cyst (more than one doesn't help, since they take a standard action to activate), 1 stormstalk (more than one doesn't help, since they take a standard action to activate), 2 Tentacle Whips (which would overide any claw attacks gained from a Crawling Gauntlet), 1 Throwing Scarab per attack you can make, 1 Living Breastplate, 1 Tougueworm, and as many Shadow Siblings as your DM will let you get away with.
Note: Living Breatplate does not stack with armor, though your DM may allow you to wear armor over it, which would leave you with only its special abilities.
UnderworldLord
03-06-07, 06:22 PM the thing about the storm stalk and wintercyst is that they can only fire once every other round. Thus, if you have two, or one of each as I had on my spellthief, you can fire once a round. It helps when its those pesky enemies you have a hard time hitting with normal attacks.

Also: the whips can attack on their own, so you can claw away with you're gauntlets, while the tentacles wail away on their own.
Cifer
03-06-07, 07:06 PM Most symionts take up space on the body, but not magic item slots, since they arn't magic items.

ECS, page 298: "Asymbiont occupies part of the creature's body - sometimes, but not always limiting the number of magic items the host can use in the same way as a magic item does."
So, yes, yes they do.

It's relatively open, but I'd say the whip takes up the offhand slot, crawling gauntlet any hand, breed leech takes up nothing, stormstalk and winter cyst would probably get the helmet slot (try wearing a full helmet when your tentacle wants to be free) and the throwing scarab interferes with gloves.
kaionon
03-07-07, 03:55 PM I would think the whip took up a bracer slotwhile the crawling gauntles take the gauntles/ glove slot obviously. I suppose the wintercyst/ storm stalk/ spellwurm would take up your cloak slot maybe, as they take up a section usualy under ones arms or on a persons back. Throwing scarab would likely not take up a section or possibly the scarab/ amulet section. I don't know what other symbionts there are at the momment. I don't really think the symbionts should take up slots except for the gauntles and bracer slots for the crawling gauntles and whips respecfully.

As for the opening post, yes there is nothing preventing a lich or other undead from gaining the use of symbionts. It would allso remove the Daelkyr half-bloods dependency as his con cannot be lowered. I think it would allso remove the penelty for adding/ removing them as well if it was con based.
Ehtiar
03-07-07, 06:29 PM From the pure fluff viewpoint, since the daelkyr created symbionts are meant to be living creatures that draw nutrients from the host (hence the usual daily ability score damage) it would be somewhat odd to have them working on an undead creature.

I'd go with a little bit of houseruling for the half-blood lich to develop some way to animate/undeadify his symbionts.. or just bring in some of the Undead symbionts from the Fiend Folio. Or just find ways to merge the two areas...

Of course..to juggle in something different.. doesn't the Half-Blood count as an Aberration? And there's that comment about the Dread Necromancer's that are not humanoid do not gain the lich transformation feature...
Cifer
03-08-07, 09:43 AM I would think the whip took up a bracer slot
I decided for the offhand because it can be used as an off-hand weapon.

while the crawling gauntles take the gauntles/ glove slot obviously
Ok, that's another possibility. I'd say hand slot would be possible too.

I suppose the wintercyst/ storm stalk/ spellwurm would take up your cloak slot maybe, as they take up a section usualy under ones arms or on a persons back.
Only the last one does that, the other two occupy a nice place atop your skull. They probably want a better view of the action or something like that.

Throwing scarab would likely not take up a section or possibly the scarab/ amulet section
Well, it attaches on the back of the hand, so I'd call it a glove.

You might want to reread the symbiont section - they at least usually mention where the damn things are positioned, although they don't say what slots they use.

I think it would allso remove the penelty for adding/ removing them as well if it was con based.
Oh, it would be a lot funnier: Several symbionts deal ability damage to their hosts - now guess what undead are immune against.

Of course..to juggle in something different.. doesn't the Half-Blood count as an Aberration? And there's that comment about the Dread Necromancer's that are not humanoid do not gain the lich transformation feature...
Oh. Right. Good point.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
OmNefarious 03-04-07, 12:15 AM	I have asked before about DHB Artificers, but now I have some new questions. -Can a DHB, as a lvl 20 Dread Necromancer, retain his symbionts when he turns into a Lich? -How many symbionts can a DHB or any other character have? -If it is dependent on Con, how many could a Lich have?
Moccanime 03-04-07, 12:05 PM	Not a very big expert on symbionts but I try to give an answear. - case by case. Some symbionts I would not allow a undead character use, like the Tentacle Whip, because the describtion says that it draws nutrients from the host (daily dex damage). Others I would not allow the character to use if they lacked what it is attached to, ie no tongue no tongueworm. - no limit as long as there is room for them and you can survive whatever damage they cause. Notice that many (but not all) symbionts take up a item slot.
Cifer 03-04-07, 02:20 PM	I'm going to answer purely by RAW. -Can a DHB, as a lvl 20 Dread Necromancer, retain his symbionts when he turns into a Lich? Yep. Symbionts have no requirements like "can be attached to living hosts only". Since there is no mentioning of "if the symbiont is incapable of inflicting ability damage, it dies." or something like that, well, lichs should have a pretty good relationship. However, they wouldn't be able to hear their symbionts talk to them, since telepathy is mindaffecting ability. They'd have to open a channel to it by a spell like Telepathic Bond. -How many symbionts can a DHB or any other character have? How many can you find or afford? As has been said, many of them take up item slots, so no two symbionts at the same place. -If it is dependent on Con, how many could a Lich have? An undead is generally assumed to have a +0 modifier in Con if the ability is vitally neccessary for something (like skills or his fort saving throw).
Warforged Goblin 03-05-07, 12:22 PM	-If it is dependent on Con, how many could a Lich have? IIRC, most abilities based off of the lich's Constitution modifier use the lich's primary spellcasting attribute, which for a dread necromancer would be Intelligence I believe.
AvonRekaes 03-05-07, 12:31 PM	Actually it's always Charisma for undead. (When absolutely needed to substitute for Con, not that you get to subtitute it just cause you don't want the +0 modifier for a non-score.)
kyeudo 03-06-07, 05:32 PM	Most symionts take up space on the body, but not magic item slots, since they arn't magic items. Assuming a humanoid, you can benefit from: 2 crawling Gauntlets, only 1 breed leech (you can attach more, but they dont stack), 1 winter cyst (more than one doesn't help, since they take a standard action to activate), 1 stormstalk (more than one doesn't help, since they take a standard action to activate), 2 Tentacle Whips (which would overide any claw attacks gained from a Crawling Gauntlet), 1 Throwing Scarab per attack you can make, 1 Living Breastplate, 1 Tougueworm, and as many Shadow Siblings as your DM will let you get away with. Note: Living Breatplate does not stack with armor, though your DM may allow you to wear armor over it, which would leave you with only its special abilities.
UnderworldLord 03-06-07, 06:22 PM	the thing about the storm stalk and wintercyst is that they can only fire once every other round. Thus, if you have two, or one of each as I had on my spellthief, you can fire once a round. It helps when its those pesky enemies you have a hard time hitting with normal attacks. Also: the whips can attack on their own, so you can claw away with you're gauntlets, while the tentacles wail away on their own.
Cifer 03-06-07, 07:06 PM	Most symionts take up space on the body, but not magic item slots, since they arn't magic items. ECS, page 298: "Asymbiont occupies part of the creature's body - sometimes, but not always limiting the number of magic items the host can use in the same way as a magic item does." So, yes, yes they do. It's relatively open, but I'd say the whip takes up the offhand slot, crawling gauntlet any hand, breed leech takes up nothing, stormstalk and winter cyst would probably get the helmet slot (try wearing a full helmet when your tentacle wants to be free) and the throwing scarab interferes with gloves.
kaionon 03-07-07, 03:55 PM	I would think the whip took up a bracer slotwhile the crawling gauntles take the gauntles/ glove slot obviously. I suppose the wintercyst/ storm stalk/ spellwurm would take up your cloak slot maybe, as they take up a section usualy under ones arms or on a persons back. Throwing scarab would likely not take up a section or possibly the scarab/ amulet section. I don't know what other symbionts there are at the momment. I don't really think the symbionts should take up slots except for the gauntles and bracer slots for the crawling gauntles and whips respecfully. As for the opening post, yes there is nothing preventing a lich or other undead from gaining the use of symbionts. It would allso remove the Daelkyr half-bloods dependency as his con cannot be lowered. I think it would allso remove the penelty for adding/ removing them as well if it was con based.
Ehtiar 03-07-07, 06:29 PM	From the pure fluff viewpoint, since the daelkyr created symbionts are meant to be living creatures that draw nutrients from the host (hence the usual daily ability score damage) it would be somewhat odd to have them working on an undead creature. I'd go with a little bit of houseruling for the half-blood lich to develop some way to animate/undeadify his symbionts.. or just bring in some of the Undead symbionts from the Fiend Folio. Or just find ways to merge the two areas... Of course..to juggle in something different.. doesn't the Half-Blood count as an Aberration? And there's that comment about the Dread Necromancer's that are not humanoid do not gain the lich transformation feature...
Cifer 03-08-07, 09:43 AM	I would think the whip took up a bracer slot I decided for the offhand because it can be used as an off-hand weapon. while the crawling gauntles take the gauntles/ glove slot obviously Ok, that's another possibility. I'd say hand slot would be possible too. I suppose the wintercyst/ storm stalk/ spellwurm would take up your cloak slot maybe, as they take up a section usualy under ones arms or on a persons back. Only the last one does that, the other two occupy a nice place atop your skull. They probably want a better view of the action or something like that. Throwing scarab would likely not take up a section or possibly the scarab/ amulet section Well, it attaches on the back of the hand, so I'd call it a glove. You might want to reread the symbiont section - they at least usually mention where the damn things are positioned, although they don't say what slots they use. I think it would allso remove the penelty for adding/ removing them as well if it was con based. Oh, it would be a lot funnier: Several symbionts deal ability damage to their hosts - now guess what undead are immune against. Of course..to juggle in something different.. doesn't the Half-Blood count as an Aberration? And there's that comment about the Dread Necromancer's that are not humanoid do not gain the lich transformation feature... Oh. Right. Good point.