Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DrOfDemonology 03-09-07, 10:19 PM	I just picked up Secrets of Xen'drik, and one of the reasons was because I was expecting a big twist on the Drow. Apart from giving them a connection to scorpions instead of spiders, and a few other wee things, nothing much has changed. The Eberron book suggests they don't make good PCs because they're so different. I don't see anything so special as to prevent them being PCs. They're no more exoctic than the warforged or changelings. But that's just my general disappoint in the book. What confuses me is that the majority of these Xen'drik drow are surface dwellers. The run around in the jungles and kick ass; even all the art shows them in the daytime. Fine, no problem. These are Eberron drow, not Forgotten Realms drow. So why are they still listed as having Darkvision and Lightblindness? This makes no sense whatsoever. They live on the surface and are active during the day. These are not creatures of the Underdark. Personally, for my campaign, I'm going to simply replace these two traits with the standard Low-Light Vision of other elves and leave the rest of the drow powers intact. But I thought it was such a glaring error (being a D&D gamer for 25+ years and a writer as well) that I wanted to share my observation with these forums. On a final note, I'd like to say I feel cheated with the Secrets of Xen'drik book, that it sure wasn't worth the $40 I paid. The maps are badly done, especially the continet map which is horrible and such a cheap job. I've seen some damn fine maps from D&D over the decades (including the main Korvaire map) but this just sucks. There weren't a lot of "secrets" that I could see; it was just another average supplement.
Shady314 03-09-07, 10:45 PM	I just picked up Secrets of Xen'drik, and one of the reasons was because I was expecting a big twist on the Drow. Apart from giving them a connection to scorpions instead of spiders, and a few other wee things, nothing much has changed. The Eberron book suggests they don't make good PCs because they're so different. I don't see anything so special as to prevent them being PCs. They're no more exoctic than the warforged or changelings. But that's just my general disappoint in the book. What confuses me is that the majority of these Xen'drik drow are surface dwellers. The run around in the jungles and kick ass; even all the art shows them in the daytime. Fine, no problem. These are Eberron drow, not Forgotten Realms drow. So why are they still listed as having Darkvision and Lightblindness? This makes no sense whatsoever. They live on the surface and are active during the day. These are not creatures of the Underdark. Personally, for my campaign, I'm going to simply replace these two traits with the standard Low-Light Vision of other elves and leave the rest of the drow powers intact. But I thought it was such a glaring error (being a D&D gamer for 25+ years and a writer as well) that I wanted to share my observation with these forums. On a final note, I'd like to say I feel cheated with the Secrets of Xen'drik book, that it sure wasn't worth the $40 I paid. The maps are badly done, especially the continet map which is horrible and such a cheap job. I've seen some damn fine maps from D&D over the decades (including the main Korvaire map) but this just sucks. There weren't a lot of "secrets" that I could see; it was just another average supplement. 1) It's not about twisting Drow mechanically to fit into Eberron it's about taking the Drow race of the MM and doing something different with them culturally. Just as the Valenar elves are a warrior culture, but they aren't wood elves or elves with bonuses to strength, they're the regular old standard elves that have adapted the mechanical strengths of their race to their culture. Not this is a high strength race so they are all fighters. Just as the Orcs of the Shadow Marches remain a low wis race but tends towards druidism. If you were hoping for new mechanics I can see how you'd be dissapointed. 2) They make poor PCs for the same reason Drow have always made poor PCs. Their culture/society is cut off from the mainland (Xendrik instead of Khorvaire, the Underdark instead of the surface.) They are xenophobic, tightly knit, high LA race. It isn't their exoticness or mechanics that make them poor PC choices it's simply their place in the world. And poor does not mean impossible. 3) Because the Drow did not get to choose what they would be mechanically. There was no Drow god thumbing through splatbooks or something trying to make the ultimate jungle dwelling race. The Giants created them from the elves to serve as assassins/spies/overseers whatever. That doesn't mean the Giants had 100% control over the finished product. Magic isn't so neat and clean. Just as sentient Warforged proved impossible to produce without emotions, the ability to taste etc. it may have been that the Giants had to accept Darkvision as a trade off in givng them SR and their other nifty abilities. Also have you ever been in a real rainforest type jungle? Granted rainforests vary but many have such dense canopies even at noon the most sunlight is just specks here and there. It can be very dark. Have you considered the Drow may simply sleep during the day and move at night? Have you considered some Drow may still live in a more traditional underground setting? Have you considered the feat daylight adaptation? Many Drow probably have it. Or the Shaders that Orcs of the Shadow Marches wear. Because oh yeah Orcs have darkvision too but still roam during the daylight. No reason Drow can't wear something similar. Have you considered artists drew them during the day for the lighting? Imagine the artwork: Drow in pitch black night with no light sources whatsoever...:D 4) OUCH! 40 dollars? You need a new store my friend. Amazon has it for less than 20. The MSRP is only 30. You got ripped off.
Teron Gorefiend 03-09-07, 10:45 PM	I can't help you on all those points, but I can tell you that the Xen'drik drow are jungle dwellers. Not much light filters through the canopy there - little enough to make light blindness largely moot and darkvision very useful at night. Also, regular elves think these traits are due to drow being infused with shadows or some such. For my part, if it ever comes up, I'll probably have elf PC(s) find out they're actually drow "dumbed down" for easy enslavement. By the way, some people might take offense at your signature, and appreciate it if you changed it as a token of good will.
SSj3goblin 03-10-07, 12:35 AM	He paid 40$ because he lives in Montreal. Although he should got to Donjon by the Henri Bourassa metro station, where they are around 30$. But I agree with the OP, SoX felt just like an overpriced Dungeon magazine issue, nothing more. Did Keith Baker work on this? If so, I'm disappointed.
Shady314 03-10-07, 12:49 AM	He paid 40$ because he lives in Montreal. Although he should got to Donjon by the Henri Bourassa metro station, where they are around 30$. But I agree with the OP, SoX felt just like an overpriced Dungeon magazine issue, nothing more. Did Keith Baker work on this? If so, I'm disappointed. Ah ok. Still Amazon does ship to Canada. 40 is just too much.
GaloisTheOmnipotent 03-10-07, 09:52 AM	Ah ok. Still Amazon does ship to Canada. 40 is just too much. His 40$ must be canadian dollars (20% more than US) including 14% taxes. Which is roughly 30US... ;)
Arcane_Mark 03-10-07, 10:30 AM	Please, I live in Spain.... Back to the subject! Maybe the drow live in underground places (for the children who dont have the daylight adaption) and they older ones come up to hunt ect. I really need to get that book... (Arcane_Mark)
Dragom 03-10-07, 11:50 AM	The first time this topic was brought up, people where refering to an eye drop that removed light blindness. Not unlike a certain eye drop used in the amazon to allow hunters to see more shades of green.
Wymarc 03-10-07, 12:12 PM	they live in the jungle- the forest floor of rainforests and jungles can be very dark.
Arcane Guyver 03-10-07, 01:45 PM	Drow were magically created by giants to be NINJAS. That's right. They see in the dark farther than most races, are extra intelligent, and are so damn charismatic spells bounce off them. Now, the giants didn't give a crap how they react to daylight, so the drow were kinda screwed there. Thankfully, there's the Daylight Adaptation feat, which you could say either represents your clan's adaptation over the years, some sort of mystic ceremony, or just that you use magikal eyedrops every day. :P My only problem with drow in Eberron is that they should all have Ranger as a favored class, not just a clan or two. The default assumes crazyass Lolth worship. As much as I like the idea of domineering drow amazons (mmm...amazons....:) ), that would be better for a couple clans, rather than be the default.
DrOfDemonology 03-10-07, 03:57 PM	By the way, some people might take offense at your signature, and appreciate it if you changed it as a token of good will. If some people are offended, that's their problem. There's far too much censorship in the world, and I'll not add to it. :nonono:
DrOfDemonology 03-10-07, 04:03 PM	they live in the jungle- the forest floor of rainforests and jungles can be very dark. True, but no where near as dark as the Underdark, an underground realm of caverns. As in no sunlight whatsoever. Even in the jungle there's going to be plenty of light in many places, and open patches; and while diffuse, the daylight is still daylight. It just seems logical to me that it would have taken a simple tapping on the keyboard to update surface-dwelling drow for Eberron. Which is why I'll have to do if for my own campaign :elf:
Shady314 03-10-07, 06:40 PM	True, but no where near as dark as the Underdark, an underground realm of caverns. As in no sunlight whatsoever. Even in the jungle there's going to be plenty of light in many places, and open patches; and while diffuse, the daylight is still daylight. It just seems logical to me that it would have taken a simple tapping on the keyboard to update surface-dwelling drow for Eberron. Which is why I'll have to do if for my own campaign :elf: Will you be changing orcs too? They suffer from the same "problem." :rolleyes: This sort of thing is the anti thesis of Eberron where races cultures adapt to their racial mechanics rather than the races mechanics adapting to the culture. The former way is interesting and entertaining. The latter is contrived and boring. What sort of mercenary culture would a race with low con and high dex have=Valenar. Kewl. In FR they'd be the same as every other warrior culture but you'd get wood elves which are elves but elves with different mechanics so that they fit the stereotypical warrior mold better. Boring. What makes your lack of imagination sadder is there are 4 quick and easy solutions. The feat daylight adaptation to represent a drow spending so much time in the light. An item drow make and wear that work the like the Shaders Orcs wear representing simple ingenuity to overcome a tiny weakness. Make the Drow nocturnal. Make Drow when not on the move set up camps underground or in caves. Really is their light sensitivity that huge of a weakness? No. So why flip out over it?
DrOfDemonology 03-10-07, 07:04 PM	Will you be changing orcs too? They suffer from the same "problem." :rolleyes: This sort of thing is the anti thesis of Eberron where races cultures adapt to their racial mechanics rather than the races mechanics adapting to the culture. The former way is interesting and entertaining. The latter is contrived and boring. What sort of mercenary culture would a race with low con and high dex have=Valenar. Kewl. In FR they'd be the same as every other warrior culture but you'd get wood elves which are elves but elves with different mechanics so that they fit the stereotypical warrior mold better. Boring. What makes your lack of imagination sadder is there are 4 quick and easy solutions. The feat daylight adaptation to represent a drow spending so much time in the light. An item drow make and wear that work the like the Shaders Orcs wear representing simple ingenuity to overcome a tiny weakness. Make the Drow nocturnal. Make Drow when not on the move set up camps underground or in caves. Really is their light sensitivity that huge of a weakness? No. So why flip out over it? First off, I'm not "flipping out" over anything. I just stating my opinion on the subject. If anything, you seem to be extremely defensive and reactionary to this topic, as if you personally created Eberron and have final say on everything related to it. The lightblindess trait is not a huge weakness; I simply don't believe it applies in this case. Furthermore, saying I lack imagination, not to mention calling it "sadder" is insulting and not a little juvenile. I have made no personal attacks on you, merely discussed my viewpoint. While you respond with a belligerent, aggressive attitude. You know nothing about me, so I find it ironic that you would accuse a published fantasy novel author praised with bringing a fresh, imaginative view to the genre as someone lacking in imagination.
Teron Gorefiend 03-10-07, 08:10 PM	If some people are offended, that's their problem. There's far too much censorship in the world, and I'll not add to it. :nonono: It's your call, of course, and I won't pursue the matter, but I'd like to point out that being considerate is not censorship.
Shady314 03-11-07, 05:01 AM	First off, I'm not "flipping out" over anything. I just stating my opinion on the subject. If anything, you seem to be extremely defensive and reactionary to this topic, as if you personally created Eberron and have final say on everything related to it. The lightblindess trait is not a huge weakness; I simply don't believe it applies in this case. Furthermore, saying I lack imagination, not to mention calling it "sadder" is insulting and not a little juvenile. I have made no personal attacks on you, merely discussed my viewpoint. While you respond with a belligerent, aggressive attitude. You know nothing about me, so I find it ironic that you would accuse a published fantasy novel author praised with bringing a fresh, imaginative view to the genre as someone lacking in imagination. So I'll take that as a yes you will be changing orcs too. Pardon my apparent misinterpretation of your OP but I thought it was clearly ranting and very belligerent, hence my later "flipping out" statement and response in kind. By all means change whatever you like. But I simply think it's a good idea to understand what you're changing before you do so. As for the other stuff if you've felt I've crossed a line by strongly disagreeing with you please inform a moderator. I said you lacked imagination because you can't seem to even accept there might be any reason whatsoever Drow might have Darkvision despite no longer dwelling in an Underdark. It's one thing to say "I get what the designers were doing but for my campaign I'm going to tweak them a bit." It's quite another thing to rant how you were ripped off with the standard MM Drow! and what were these idiots thinking because obviously the Drow shouldn't have darkvision and you'll be changing this glaring act of idiocy. :rolleyes: I don't really care what you've done or written. That doesn't mean every idea you have is a good one. I certainly hope you aren't implying giving Drow low light vision is fresh and imaginative. :rofl:
johnkretzer 03-11-07, 08:44 PM	First off, I'm not "flipping out" over anything. I just stating my opinion on the subject. If anything, you seem to be extremely defensive and reactionary to this topic, as if you personally created Eberron and have final say on everything related to it. The lightblindess trait is not a huge weakness; I simply don't believe it applies in this case. Furthermore, saying I lack imagination, not to mention calling it "sadder" is insulting and not a little juvenile. I have made no personal attacks on you, merely discussed my viewpoint. While you respond with a belligerent, aggressive attitude. You know nothing about me, so I find it ironic that you would accuse a published fantasy novel author praised with bringing a fresh, imaginative view to the genre as someone lacking in imagination. First he is just expressing free speech like your sig. You should be accepting of it and not so insulted by it. Or that could lead to censorship. Second there are simple answear as to why drow have lightblindeness(not all races with darkvision as it by the way) which is what he was pointing out. I could add others but you don't want it. You just want people to agree with you. Third, so you are a author, what have you written and who published it? If you want send to me a PM. I am always looking for good fantasy authors to read. But this is about a fantasy RPGs which requires things to be different then simply writting a fanatasy book, so this is meaningless even if you are actualy a writter(not trying to insult you just pointing out we only have your word fot it. Fourth, overall I find the book to be useful. The mapd weren't great but then again I can do maps on my own and perfer it that way. So I accept that maps in the product aren't going to very helpful. Also drow are always said to make poor PCs period. Doesn't make it impossible.
SSj3goblin 03-12-07, 01:15 AM	First he is just expressing free speech like your sig. You should be accepting of it and not so insulted by it. Or that could lead to censorship. Second there are simple answear as to why drow have lightblindeness(not all races with darkvision as it by the way) which is what he was pointing out. I could add others but you don't want it. You just want people to agree with you. Third, so you are a author, what have you written and who published it? If you want send to me a PM. I am always looking for good fantasy authors to read. But this is about a fantasy RPGs which requires things to be different then simply writting a fanatasy book, so this is meaningless even if you are actualy a writter(not trying to insult you just pointing out we only have your word fot it. Fourth, overall I find the book to be useful. The mapd weren't great but then again I can do maps on my own and perfer it that way. So I accept that maps in the product aren't going to very helpful. Also drow are always said to make poor PCs period. Doesn't make it impossible. Wow, so much pointless OP bashing. To get back on topic, I'd tell the OP that the eyedrops are a pretty interesting idea, and could probably be used to create more depth to drow culture in Eberron. Also, I believe the best way to handle the light blindness in Eberron is to remove it for both Orcs and Drows, that's what I houseruled. Oh, and please, don't take out your sig, pointless flaming and a quote are two very different kinds of "free speech" and should not be compared. That's my answear.
goblin_pride 03-12-07, 03:16 AM	Actually, the lightblindness isn't terribly far off. I live in a city and work exclusively at night, I've done this for the last twelve years. I find myself horribly distracted in the sunlight and so I can understand the rules of lightblindness a little better than most. Sure, you could wisk it away if you want, but the idea that the Drow* live and work in conditions of muted sunlight at best or complete shadow at the worst makes them more interesting. *I prefer to call them Dark Elves myself, however, the term Drow seems to be the one everyone gravitates towards. Personally, I think making them nocturnal would explain alot more of the reason why they were able to be so helpful in destroying the giant empire, which I would assume probably had a daylight activity cycle.
heirodule 03-12-07, 09:54 AM	Drow ninjas aside, I like the concept that the Giants wanted slaves that would be doing tasks 24/7. You have the day-slaves (elves) and the night-slaves (drow). Get more done that way.
The White Sorcerer 03-12-07, 10:35 AM	So why are they still listed as having Darkvision and Lightblindness? Because they were created to operate in the dark?
The Dreaming Duck 03-12-07, 01:48 PM	You know nothing about me, so I find it ironic that you would accuse a published fantasy novel author praised with bringing a fresh, imaginative view to the genre as someone lacking in imagination. Well, Keith Baker is also "a published fantasy novel author praised with bringing a fresh, imaginative view to the genre", yet the foundation of this thread is your statement that he is "someone lacking in imagination". As others have said, even the most imaginative people in the business can have off days or bad ideas. The question isn't what you, Keith, or anyone else has done in the past; it's what is currently on the table. In the case of the drow: one of the fundamental aspects of Eberron is to take what exists and adapt it to the world. Eberron changes very little about D&D. You can use the vast majority of SRD material just as it stands, and from what I've seen, that's a clear design goal. The intention has always been to add cultural depth or historical detail as opposed to adjusting mechanics. Thus, the drow possess darkvision and light blindness, because that's how they are defined in the SRD. What's said to justify this? Drow darkvision, spell resistance, and spell-like abilities are the result of magical genetic manipulation intended to create a race suited to assassination and subtle combat. This wasn't a case of natural evolution to adapt to the underdark, but rather the giants "binding the essence of night" to elves. The logical assumption is that light blindness is a corresponding penalty for their enhanced visual acuity - that it was a flaw in the initial design, required to give them darkvision. In any case, the drow have a clearly stated unnatural reason for possessing darkvision, which has nothing to do with evolution. Drow can be assumed to be nocturnal; it's what they were designed for. With that said, as they only "sleep" four hours, that still leaves them time in the daylight, but we'll come back to that. Some drow - the umbragen - do live underground. The sulatar live in windowless structures. The bulk of the qaltiar live in dense jungle, and as others have pointed out, you simply don't get enough sunlight to trigger light blindness in a rain forest. So, what you see here is the reverse: instead of the drow evolving darkvision to adapt to their underground environment, they select or adapt their habitat based on their natural abilities of light blindess and darkvision. The Daylight Adaption feat exists, in my mind, as a way of showing drow who have essentially evolved to overcome light blindness, presumably through generations of living in bright environments. For jungle drow who venture out in the day, you have the eyedrops from SoX or shaders. So why are they still listed as having Darkvision and Lightblindness? This makes no sense whatsoever. They live on the surface and are active during the day. These are not creatures of the Underdark. You see drow who live on the surface and say that it's a flaw to assume that they could have darkvision and light blindness. I see a case where a designer has gone to an effort to explore WHY this might be the case, rather than just taking the easy "They live underground, and EVERYONE who lives underground has darkvision" approach. You seem to feel that no creature that lives on the surface could have light blindness. But this assumes natural evolution is at work. This is a world where a glance from a medusa could turn you to stone. Magic is at work here, and the explanation given is that drow traits aren't the result of evolution: they are the result of magic. The drow are actually handicapped by their gifts, and that is part of their culture: they must live in dark places (jungles, windowless citadels) or find ways to overcome this weakness (shaders, blackout drops). To me, it's far more interesting to meet a group of drow in Stormreach who are shrouded and wearing shaders to hide from the sun until they can retreat to the sheltering jungle, than to simply take away the limitation and say "They're just like normal elves, only with spell resistance and some nifty powers." The challenge is to explain why they have darkvision in the first place, and Eberron has done that. You know nothing about me, so I find it ironic that you would accuse a published fantasy novel author praised with bringing a fresh, imaginative view to the genre as someone lacking in imagination. Coming back to this: You're right. I know nothing about you. I didn't know you were a published fantasy novel author praised with bringing a fresh imaginative view to the genre. In fact, I still don't, because for all I know, you could just be saying that. So... what's your novel(s)? Where can I find it/them? I'm all for a fresh and imaginative look at things. At the same time, I still think that when your entire thesis is the criticism of another fantasy novelist and imaginative author, claiming that others shouldn't criticize YOU because you're an imaginative author is a flimsy shield. The fact that this thread even exists shows that any author can have a bad idea.
DrOfDemonology 03-12-07, 05:42 PM	Well, I could go further into why I don't think the whole lightblindness angle doesn't apply in this particular case, but I won't. The subject has already stirred up enough hard feelings. Oh, and PMs have been sent to those requesting them to prove I'm not a liar.
johnkretzer 03-12-07, 06:05 PM	Well, I could go further into why I don't think the whole lightblindness angle doesn't apply in this particular case, but I won't. The subject has already stirred up enough hard feelings. Oh, and PMs have been sent to those requesting them to prove I'm not a liar. I'll apolgize for doubting you but people make these kind of claims all the time. I'll also apologize by any hostile comments I posted about your comments. It seemed to me that your first post was very hostile and closed minded.
The Dreaming Duck 03-12-07, 06:31 PM	Apart from giving them a connection to scorpions instead of spiders, and a few other wee things, nothing much has changed. Just to continue the discussion beyond lightblindness... I agree that the "We like scorpions instead of spiders - isn't that original" slant of the Vulkoor drow is, in my opinion, a weak change. They're both arachnids, for goodness sake. However, I really enjoyed Keith Baker's depiction of the Qaltiar sect in The Shattered Land and Gates of Night. For these drow, Vulkoor is merely one of many spirits who serve as gods and guides; others mentioned include the displacer beast and the tilxin bird, hunter and trickster. I like the broader animistic tone and the flavor it gave to the drow characters in these books. Beyond that... if the only change you see is a connection to scorpions instead of spiders, you're ignoring the sulatar and the umbragen. The sulatar have no interest in arachnids of any sort, and consider the children of Vulkoor to be savages. They focus on elemental binding and the Promise of Flame, and have preserved techniques from the Age of Giants that could shame even the Zil gnomes. In the umbragen, you have your subterranean elves, but to save their culture they have embraced dark powers in order to combat even more sinister forces. Again, nothing to do with spiders or scorpions; rather, a racial predeliction for warlocks, IIRC. It may not be enough of a change for you, and I respect that. But the presentation of three entirely different cultures, which not only have little in common with one another but which are actively in conflict, seems like a little more than "a few wee things." They have different religions, different traditions of magic, and can play substantially different roles in a campaign. Secrets of Xen'drik isn't one of my favorite books. It is designed as a toolbox as opposed to a linear sourcebook. And it obviously doesn't give you the complete redefinition of drow that you're looking for. But I do think that you might be missing some of the depth that it does offer, given that you don't seem to be taking things like the Sulatar into account. However, having read the novels involving the Eberron drow, I may be biased... after all, we all know not to criticize novelists. ;) On that note, while I thank you for the email and will check out the book, my point wasn't that I thought you were lying about being a novelist... rather, it's "So what?" Keith Baker's a sucessful novelist and the creator of this setting, and many of us (including you) have criticized him on these boards. Just because someone is imaginative or has gotten published doesn't make every idea a good one. Quite a few people prefer The Fireballed Mage's dragonmarked house writeups to the ones in Dragonmarked, but I don't know if TFM has ever been published. For me, this isn't about you or what you've done; it's about the principle that because you've written something people have liked, and which I might like, I must automatically like EVERYTHING you do. I believe that Eberron's explanation for drow's darkvision and light blindness IS imaginative, that it highlights their role in the history of the world and presents drow with a handicap in the world. It isn't as simple as "All creatures with darkvision live in the underdark", nor is it just stripped away because they live on the surface. They are a race bred to live in the darkness; some have retreated below the surface, some live in windowless citadels, some hunt in the deep shadows. Again, to me this is MORE imaginative than just stripping it away; it's justifying the ability and weakness and tying it to the history of the world. So: I may read your book and love it. I may agreed with you whole-heartedly on some other post. But no matter what you've done or what reviews you've received, that doesn't mean I have to agree with you all the time - any more than either of us have to agree with Keith Baker.
Kreistor2 03-13-07, 01:14 PM	I removed Light Sensitivity from Orcs and Drow the moment I saw the environments they lived in.
The Dreaming Duck 03-13-07, 01:37 PM	I removed Light Sensitivity from Orcs and Drow the moment I saw the environments they lived in. The environments they live in? Such as... the underground realms of the Umbragen? The Shadow Marches or the rainforests of Xen'drik, where the sun never reaches the ground? Shadowed citadels, built to keep out the harsh rays of the sun? What bothers me is the kneejerk "They aren't underground, so they can't have light sensitivity" response. Every DM has the right to do whatever they want; that's not the issue. But the concept that a creature who lives aboveground, but in a place the sun doesn't shine, simply can't have light sensitivity IMO limits the potential for interesting stories. Again, I think making a creature use its intelligence and tools (shaders, potions, etc) to overcome this limitation is FAR more interesting than just removing it. And again, since the fiction doesn't suggest that either trait is the result of natural evolution, the environment isn't an issue to me. It's easy for drow to live underground, and therefore many (the Umbragen) do - if they want to live among humans, they either have to find a way to overcome this weakness or remain indoors during daylight hours. Evolution is not the cause of strength or weakness, so they either use their intelligence to find environments that offset the weakness (shdowy areas, underground) or to build tools to counter it... or they DO evolve away from it, using the Daylight Adaption feat. Again, good for you for doing what works best in your campaign. I don't mean this to be an argument: you're doing what makes sense to you. All I'm saying is that the surface-dwelling race with light sensitivity can actually bring a lot of color to a story, and you might want to consider how a race would deal with this handicap before dismissing it out of hand; in my campaign, it's added a great deal of color to the drow, who dwell in the darkest jungles and who hide their faces and shield their eyes when venturing onto the sunlit streets of Stormreach.
Shady314 03-13-07, 06:03 PM	Well, I could go further into why I don't think the whole lightblindness angle doesn't apply in this particular case, but I won't. The subject has already stirred up enough hard feelings. :rolleyes: No one's feelings have been hurt. It's called a discussion. Have you never been on a message board? I would like to hear your argument. Please do go "further." You've hardly made a single point to explain your feelings on the whole matter. I'm honestly curious to know what reasons you have beyond the fact many Drow live above ground.
Kelios_Lyonsmane 03-13-07, 06:13 PM	I dont agree or disagree with light blindness "but" it is there for a bit of game balance imo, so if you remove light blindness i would sugest you remove darkvision as well and give them low light vision in stead. You could even add the eye drops to give them darkvision when they venture i total darkness.
DrOfDemonology 03-13-07, 06:39 PM	I dont agree or disagree with light blindness "but" it is there for a bit of game balance imo, so if you remove light blindness i would sugest you remove darkvision as well and give them low light vision in stead. You could even add the eye drops to give them darkvision when they venture i total darkness. That was my planned change, to drop Darkvision & Lightblindness and replace them with Low-Light Vision.
The White Sorcerer 03-13-07, 07:08 PM	Will you also remove the darkvision of dwarves living outside the Mror Holds?
DrOfDemonology 03-13-07, 07:21 PM	As others have said, even the most imaginative people in the business can have off days or bad ideas. The question isn't what you, Keith, or anyone else has done in the past; it's what is currently on the table. Just to make this absolutely clear to everyone: You know nothing about me, so I find it ironic that you would accuse a published fantasy novel author praised with bringing a fresh, imaginative view to the genre as someone lacking in imagination. This statement was a remark on being accused of lacking in imagination, and nothing more. I am not claiming to be absolutely right, or that all my ideas are correct, or any such thing. Simply that I don't lack in imagination.
Romulus LoneWolf 03-13-07, 07:53 PM	The nocturnal/dark jungle-dwelling approach is what I'd use as well. Not only does it make sense for the Light-Sensitive Drow to operate at night, but considering much of Xen'drik's area is in a tropical climate, Nighttime would actually be the best time to move around and operate, as that's when the heat would be at it's lowest. Still, this thread has given me ideas for new Drow subgroups, like a tribe of Desert Drow living in Menechtraun, travelling at night and resting in Oasis during the day, fighting against Sand Giants and Marruspawn; or a tribe of seafaring Arctic Drow living in the Iceflow Sea.
Kreistor2 03-14-07, 10:05 AM	Such as... the underground realms of the Umbragen? I might leave it on for them, were I to involve them. I have no plans for the Umbreagen. The Shadow Marches or the rainforests of Xen'drik, where the sun never reaches the ground? I don't know where people get the idea that Jungles are dark. Shadow Marches are swamps. Swamps are vast and open, and definitely not dark. Shadowed citadels, built to keep out the harsh rays of the sun? Anyone that winds up declaring them to be nocturnal or limited in ranging capacity or tied to a location makes the very intelligent Drow (+2 int bonus) dumb and limited. Smart is smart, not stupid and predictable. When determining whether to remove it or not, I compared Drow to their previous incarnations. Is Light Sensitivity a problem in the Underdark? Heck, no. It never crops up for 90% of the Drow, and those few it does won't see it more than 3 or for times a year. It now crops up for every Qaltiar and Sulatar in the Eberron campaign. Every day half the day. A minor inconvenience has become a major hassle. That's why i removed it... because it weakens the race to the point of losing an LA due to the shift in environment.
The Dreaming Duck 03-14-07, 10:38 AM	Anyone that winds up declaring them to be nocturnal or limited in ranging capacity or tied to a location makes the very intelligent Drow (+2 int bonus) dumb and limited. Smart is smart, not stupid and predictable. I agree completely... which is why I HATE your solution, Kreistor. To me, what makes the drow interesting is to say "How would an intelligent race overcome light blindness?" You answer has NOTHING to do with intelligence. It's simply "It's limiting for them to have it, so I'm taking it away." I don't keep the drow indoors half the day. I have them use TOOLS, like shaders, to overcome their inherent limitations... because that's what intelligent creatures do. A DM hand-waving away a physical weakness which the race possesses because, essentially, of a magical curse has nothing to do with the intelligence of the species. The members of that species finding ways to overcome that weakness and to AVOID being predictable? That's what highlights their intelligence, and what makes them different from any other elf that might happen to be hanging around Xen'drik. If I wanted them to have low-light vision instead of light sensitivty, frankly I wouldn't use drow at all - I'd throw out the race and just make them standard elves with a cultural difference. Highlighting their physical differences, the historical reason behind them, and how they overcome them is what makes the drow worthwhile in my campaign. I don't know where people get the idea that Jungles are dark. I don't know where we do get these ideas. I admit, I don't live in a jungle. So for me, it's been the extremely dark zoo exhibits on rainforest life, and things like this wikipedia entry - "The undergrowth in a rainforest is restricted in many areas by the lack of sunlight at ground level." Now, the key phrase there is "many areas" - not all. However, if the jungle is hundreds of miles across, "many areas" is a perfectly viable habitat. but, of course, wikipedia is probably lying to me. It happens. Even here, do we have NO sunlight? I doubt it. But the drow don't need complete and utter darkness. Their blindness is triggered by "bright light". If the sunlight is filtered through a thick canopy, to such a level that it no longer supports undergrowth at ground level, it's not bright light. Beyond that? One more extremely critical point. What is light blindness? We talk about it as if the drow couldn't possibly survive in a sunlit environment. But at the end of the day, what happens to the drow who DOES walk around during the day on the sunlit streets of Stormreach? Per the SRD, he "takes a –1 penalty on attack rolls, Search checks, and Spot checks." DEVASTATING! No penalty to AC. A -1 penalty on TWO skill checks. A -1 to attack rolls. Yes, this puts the drow at a disadvantage when fighting a perfectly equal opponent. So avoid fighting a perfectly equal opponent in a fair fight! The drow not only has a higher Intelligence than a human, he's got better Charisma. Use both those traits. Outwit your opponent. Make them fight on your ground. A paltry -1 on three checks isn't going to stop you from using clever strategies against your opponents. Honestly, at the end of the day, light blindness simply isn't that serious a limitation. Exploring the ways that the drow do offset this - whether through use of tools or unpredictable tactics - gives them a distinctly different flavor than other elves, and I like that. If I was going to hand-wave it away, I'd just go the next step and eliminate the race entirely. That's why i removed it... because it weakens the race to the point of losing an LA due to the shift in environment. Personally, I'd go ahead and lose the LA; that's what Xen'drik expeditions did. If they're weaker, let them be weaker; it still keeps the distinct flavor of the race intact. With all that said, despite my beligerent tone, I recognize your difference in opinion and right to do whatever you want in your campaign. I just strongly disagree with the argument that the drow's intelligence somehow justifies a transformation to low-light vision - when to me, what proves their intelligence is the drow finding ways to overcome this weakness, not the DM doing it for them
Bluebrush 03-14-07, 01:25 PM	As noted, light blindness is not that bad. Notably not even as bad as darkness for a normal-sighted creature. This means that the drow can remain competent, if impaired at day and absolutely outsee you at night. Especially with 120ft darkvision. Unless you've brought along a Duregar or a widened darkvision spell you won't even be able to spot them with spot checks. As another possible point, do Drow sleep? I'm not sure if they trance for four hours like regular elves or not.
The White Sorcerer 03-14-07, 01:31 PM	As another possible point, do Drow sleep? I'm not sure if they trance for four hours like regular elves or not. I'd say they trance. I treat them as elves in all respects unless otherwise noted.
goblin_pride 03-14-07, 02:13 PM	To me, what makes the drow interesting is to say "How would an intelligent race overcome light blindness?" You answer has NOTHING to do with intelligence. It's simply "It's limiting for them to have it, so I'm taking it away." I don't keep the drow indoors half the day. I have them use TOOLS, like shaders, to overcome their inherent limitations... because that's what intelligent creatures do. I have to agree with DD on this. If the Dark Elves suddenly lose their one limiting factor rather than developing methods to counteract it, why bother to include them at all? The point that's been missed is that there is light that filters in through the jungle canopy during the day, but Dark elves are active 20 out of 24 hours and if you think the Jungle floor is dark in daylight, you should see it when what little moonlight there is tries to get through. There's the reason for their light blindness without making them nocturnal. Nocturnal and diurnal are irrelevant when a being is awake for 20 of 24 hours. The light-blindness was a trade-off in their evolution for being able to see much better in the dark than even some nocturnal creatures.
The White Sorcerer 03-14-07, 02:21 PM	The light-blindness was a trade-off in their evolution for being able to see much better in the dark than even some nocturnal creatures. The drow didn't exactly evolve. They were created. I still stand by what I said earlier: They have darkvision and light blindness because the giants created them to operate during the night.
Romulus LoneWolf 03-14-07, 04:27 PM	Why is everyone considering the Light Blindness to be such a dreaded disadvantage that it has to be removed? A sophisticated society can just adapt to such a disadvantage through creativity. Just take humanity for exemple. In D&D, Humans are just about the only race devoid of Low-Light Vision or Darkvision. Does that mean humans are completly helpless at night-time? Heck no, we invented artificial sources of light for a reason! We even continue to operate and work even at night in some professions, while others sleep. I see Drow society being exactly the opposite. It's at it's busiest at night, when everyone is out of their trance and walking around outdoors, going to their job, shopping at the market, attending the nightly rituals.. But during the daytime, nearly everyone's indoors, either resting or trancing, and only guards with Daylight Adaptation or Blackroot Oil patrol the streets against daytime enemies.
Teron Gorefiend 03-14-07, 04:39 PM	The drow didn't exactly evolve. They were created. I still stand by what I said earlier: They have darkvision and light blindness because the giants created them to operate during the night. So say the Aereni. When did this theory become canon?
The Dreaming Duck 03-14-07, 05:03 PM	So say the Aereni. And the Sulatar (SoX p. 52), and the Umbragen (the Dragon piece on the Ring of Storms), and the Jalaq Qaltiar (The Shattered Land). You're quite right. It's NOT canon, any more than any particular theory about the origin of the warforged is canon. But it's apparently a theory with widespread support among the drow itself, and it is a theory that explains why a particular set of elves might develop spell resistance, darkvision, and the ability to conjure magical darkness... especially given the long lifespan of elves, which seems like it would make natural evolution a very slow process. So: nothing says that you have to use the "giants created the drow" myth; it could be that it's just a legend with strong support among elf/drow cultures. Personally, I have no problem with Goblin Pride's suggested origin. My point is simply that to those who are saying "A surface dwelling race should never develop darkvision/light blindness"... well, Keith Baker apparently agrees with you, which is why he suggested an unnatural origin for drow abilities. Beyond this, however, I reiterate my previous point: Light blindness simply isn't enough of a drawback to prevent a race from operating in daylight. It doesn't limit, say, Hide or Move Silently, and if you're making a sneak attack, a -1 to hit won't make much difference. Even with the -1 penalty from Light Blindness, a drow's Search and Spot checks are actually at a net +1 because of racial bonuses. When they are in the rain forest at night and it's pitch black? That 120-ft darkvision gives them an edge over human and elf alike.