Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JulesCARV 11-11-07, 02:37 AM	I was thinking a bit about adepts. Eberron's conception of the adept is that it's the "NPC priest" while the cleric is the "PC priest," just as a magewright is an "NPC mage" and a sorcerer is a "PC mage." Yet looking at the Dungeon Master's Guide, that was not the original intention of the class. It's technically a divine spellcasting class, but its spell list has a mix of cleric-style and wizard-style spells (invisibility, mirror image, polymorph, etc), and, of course, it can summon a familiar by level 2. If a typical Eberronian priest is more likely to have a familiar than to be able to turn undead, what implications does this have for religions? What familiars are more popular with the Silver Flame compared to the Sovereign Host or the Blood of Vol? If this were merely an issue of reflavoring the adept from being a "low-powered arcane/divine hybrid mage" to being an "NPC priest," then it would be no problem, but the adept's idiosyncratic nature also has mechanical implications for PCs. In particular, the adept spell list gives the chameleon from Races of Destiny and the archivist from Heroes of Horror access to divine spells like polymorph. In the case of the chameleon, they theoretically have access to the adept list for free just by faking praying for it. In the case of the archivist, they have to find an adept capable of casting the spell before they can get it, but adepts are the easiest divine spellcasters in Eberron to find, so it strains credulity to have an archivist who finds druid, cleric, and other "intended" spells but can't find an adept to help him scribe a scroll of mirror image. Of course, some DMs might make all divine scrolls that an archivist might use very hard to get, making the archivist make do with the two free cleric spells per level and making it hard to get any other spells, whether cleric, druid, adept, or anything else, but that's a somewhat unsatisfying way of running an archivist. Overall, I think that the best solution would be to scrap the DMG adept and build a new NPC divine spellcaster that fills the NPC spellcasting priest niche, which would both fit the flavor better than the current scorching ray-slinging adept with a familiar and would avoid giving archivists and chameleons fairly easy access to spells that they probably weren't intended to have. Thoughts?
Just_some_Evil_Wizard 11-11-07, 03:54 AM	The ECS and Sharn, City of Towers ("Urban Adepts") already include rules to adopt the adept to a what you appear to have in mind.
Amaril 11-11-07, 10:46 AM	Technically, Eberron NPC priests mostly ave levels in the expert NPC class while a very few have levels in adept. Adepts are meant to be the sages and seers of small villages and such in traditional D&D settings. Additionally, the magewright is more of an NPC artificer than an NPC wizard.
Count Nerindil Van Seraph 11-11-07, 11:28 AM	Kieth also did a "Druid style" adept called the Gleaner found here. (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/gk7uKJeF296jRcx1NJw.html)
Alex_ 11-11-07, 07:58 PM	Yet looking at the Dungeon Master's Guide, that was not the original intention of the class. It's technically a divine spellcasting class, but its spell list has a mix of cleric-style and wizard-style spells (invisibility, mirror image, polymorph, etc), and, of course, it can summon a familiar by level 2. The DMG Adept is still a divine spellcasting class. Sure the spell list is different, but it's still a divine class where the character gets spells via faith/deity/higher power. Being able to cast a few spells seen more often on Arcane Spell lists and a Familiar doesn't change that. If a typical Eberronian priest is more likely to have a familiar than to be able to turn undead, what implications does this have for religions? What familiars are more popular with the Silver Flame compared to the Sovereign Host or the Blood of Vol? I don't think the implications are that great. Familiars, Animal Companions, and Mounts in general don't seem to garner a whole lot of attention in Eberron. An Adept probably takes a Familiar that appeals to them personally, if they choose to take one at all. If this were merely an issue of reflavoring the adept from being a "low-powered arcane/divine hybrid mage" to being an "NPC priest," then it would be no problem, but the adept's idiosyncratic nature also has mechanical implications for PCs. In particular, the adept spell list gives the chameleon from Races of Destiny and the archivist from Heroes of Horror access to divine spells like polymorph. In the case of the chameleon, they theoretically have access to the adept list for free just by faking praying for it. In the case of the archivist, they have to find an adept capable of casting the spell before they can get it, but adepts are the easiest divine spellcasters in Eberron to find, so it strains credulity to have an archivist who finds druid, cleric, and other "intended" spells but can't find an adept to help him scribe a scroll of mirror image. Of course, some DMs might make all divine scrolls that an archivist might use very hard to get, making the archivist make do with the two free cleric spells per level and making it hard to get any other spells, whether cleric, druid, adept, or anything else, but that's a somewhat unsatisfying way of running an archivist. Both of these are concerns for Adepts in all D&D games, not just those in Eberron. In either case, they're rather small, since I don't think the Chameleon's ability gives it access to all Divine/Arcane spells (or else it could cast Cure as learned from a Bard), only those as if it were a Wizard or Cleric. Even if they could, Polymorph is not that powerful, and considering the character might be a Doppleganger, and has already invested heavily into bluff and disguise, actually fits well. I don't fully understand the Archivist issue. If Adepts are more plentiful than other spellcasting classes, why would it be so difficult to track down one who could make the appropriate scroll? Overall, I think that the best solution would be to scrap the DMG adept and build a new NPC divine spellcaster that fills the NPC spellcasting priest niche, which would both fit the flavor better than the current scorching ray-slinging adept with a familiar and would avoid giving archivists and chameleons fairly easy access to spells that they probably weren't intended to have. Thoughts? I suggest backing off on such a strict and detailed analysis of the flavor and mechanics of Divine casters. I've noticed that in other threads you have many ideas regarding Divine spellcasting, but these ideas seem to be heading you into an awful lot of conundrums and conflicts. You get to the point where you can't take this class, can't have that feature, and have to rebuild this and that because the flavor/mechanics don't match the general idea 100%. Highlight the Divine aspects of the Adept in descriptions, downplay, or even ignore what you think are the non-Divine ones, and a rebuild won't be necessary.
Rechan 11-11-07, 11:06 PM	You have a point about Archivists - except that you need to find one that's 12th level to cast Polymorph. Go ahead, try and find a 12th level NPC in Eberron just hanging around.
Wih 11-12-07, 12:08 AM	You have a point about Archivists - except that you need to find one that's 12th level to cast Polymorph. Go ahead, try and find a 12th level NPC in Eberron just hanging around. Welcome to Sharn.
Rechan 11-12-07, 02:10 PM	Welcome to Sharn. 1) They'd be an Urban Adept, not a regular one. 2) Eh. Just because it's Sharn doesn't mean there's going to be high level everybody just hanging around.
JulesCARV 11-12-07, 02:33 PM	A high level adept is hard to find, but a high level adept isn't as hard to find as a high level cleric, high level druid, high level paladin, or high level ranger. As I mentioned, it's perfectly possible to run a campaign where an archivist has trouble finding any divine scrolls other than those he scribes himself, and pretty much has to rely on the two free spells to be added to his prayer book per level, but I'm not sure that's a very satisfying way of handling the "archivist issue." It doesn't make much sense, though, for it to be easier for an archivist to find a scroll of magic vestment scribed by a cleric more easily than to find a scroll of mirror image scribed by an adept. That's all I'm saying.
Alex_ 11-13-07, 01:22 AM	A high level adept is hard to find, but a high level adept isn't as hard to find as a high level cleric, high level druid, high level paladin, or high level ranger. As I mentioned, it's perfectly possible to run a campaign where an archivist has trouble finding any divine scrolls other than those he scribes himself, and pretty much has to rely on the two free spells to be added to his prayer book per level, but I'm not sure that's a very satisfying way of handling the "archivist issue." No class should exist in a vacuum. A campaign should be adapted to the players in it. If you have an Archivist, you should include situations where they can use their abilities, just like if you have a Rogue, you should involve situations where stealth, trapfinding, and sneak attack are useful, and if you have a Ranger, have their favored enemy make an appearance. It doesn't make much sense, though, for it to be easier for an archivist to find a scroll of magic vestment scribed by a cleric more easily than to find a scroll of mirror image scribed by an adept. Any campaign you run is going to have dozens of other events going on that are statistically, far less likely. The chances of nearly half a dozen characters with PC classes and largely unrelated backgrounds coming together to accomplish great things is, in an of itself, an event worthy of legend in Eberron. Don't sweat the small stuff.
AvonRekaes 11-13-07, 04:26 AM	Seems like a minor tweak here and there to the Adept spell list would suit you just fine. If you're worried about the familiar, it can always be flavored differently. Paladins call companion animals to them too, only difference being they're big enough to ride. Adepts, weaker in the divine department than a paladin, are only able to call small animals. I could see them appearing a little unusual for a normal creature of their type, such as a rat familiar of a Silver Flame adept having silver fur (familiars are magical beasts after all).
Hellcow 11-13-07, 08:46 AM	Welcome to Sharn. Well, just to address this point... by the original chart James Wyatt put together, in Sharn there's a total of 31 adepts of 12th level and higher. So they are out there, yes... amidsts the hundreds of thousands of others. But the key point is that even if they exist, they aren't "hanging around". Anyone of that level - NPC class or not - is a remarkable individual who's going to have influence and a lot going on. The one high level adept mentioned in the book is the high priest of the Blood of Vol sect. Others may be leaders of their own sects (which will likely include faiths like the Dragon Below and the Dark Six in addition to benevolent ones), maintain secondary churches to the main faiths, or be the most valuable healers in the houses of House Jorasco. An adept of the Keeper won't advertise his abilities or level, which the Jorasco adept is going to be a star of the house and hard to pull away from the enclave. So they are around, but I wouldn't expect them to be "hanging around". This ties to the point that I see those who wield divine magic as needing to be incredibly devout people; even those who have strayed from the teachings of their faith should still be extremely dedicated to what they DO believe. If you don't have burning passion for your faith, you won't end up as adept or cleric... which is why the majority of priests are experts. So again, an adept of that level is a holy person of remarkable ability and drive. On the original question, I agree that the basic adept list isn't a great match for its use in Eberron, which is exactly why we added the Urban Adept spell list to Sharn. Obviously you could come up with something completely different - but no argument that the straight DMG one has a few quirks. With that said, it is an NPC class, and what I PERSONALLY do is restrict it in a logical fashion based on the faith in question. TECHNICALLY an adept can take any spell on the adept list. However, if I've got an adept of the Silver Flame, he's not going to produce a wall of stone; there's just no good reason for him to get that spell from his faith. If it was a PC and he said "But the book says I can!!!!" I'd have to consider fair balance and the like, but since it's an NPC, I just say "Who knows? Maybe he can cast wall of stone. But it would never occur to him to prepare it; he doesn't even no the prayers that would be required." But I'm always an advocate of putting story before rules. I consider the adept spell list to be a good guideline of the level of power an adept should possess... but I'm certainly willing to add or subtract spells from the list in order to fit the story.
Wih 11-14-07, 12:30 AM	In regards to the "Sharn" comment, I should probably explain. I recently purchased Sharn: City of Towers and read through the whole thing. There are quite a few well known people in Sharn capable of casting 5th and 6th level spells that are written about in deatil in the book. While I'm aware they won't sell their services for money, with a good enough reason and a favour or two, anything's possible - especially in a Pulp setting (can you say Side-quest?)