Draconic Human idea [Archive] - Wizards Community

Draconic Human idea [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Werebat
08-12-07, 06:03 PM OK, this might get convoluted, please bear with me.

A player IMC wants to play a cleric with a very specific pair of domains (Spell and Shadow). His PC HAS! TO! HAVE! these exact domains, no other domains will do! Of course the only deities to hold them that I know of are Aureon and the Shadow, diametrically opposed deities, so there you are.

Someone found an obscure mention of an old deity called the Sovereign of Light and Darkness who was apparently worshipped by humans on Reidra long ago, and that remnants of worshipping populations still exist in remote islands of Lhazaar. This deity represents a joining of Aureon and his Shadow and has access to both of their domain lists. We ran with that an invented a Lhazaarian human of Reidran stock who followed this religion. This worked pretty well because the player also wants to multiclass into psion and psychic theurge, and Reidrans have psionic traditions.

Later the player learned that they could do something similar with a Kalashtar who possibly followed the Dreamseeker Path (I think that's what it's called).

Then they learned about the Draconic template and wanted that for the +2 Cha.

Now I'm wondering if it might not be easier to have the PC be a Draconic human with gem dragon ancestry and ties to the Chamber. This would account for the psionic ability (gem dragons are psionically endowed), but I'm not sure about the Spell and Shadow domains.

I guess in a nutshell what I'm asking is -- does the Chamber ever employ Draconic agents, or are Draconic members of the lesser races universally shunned and hated? Also, is there any religion tied to Argonessen, dragons, and/or the Chamber that might allow access to the Spell and Shadow domains?

Whew, that was a lot. This is one convoluted character he wants to play, smells like something from CharOp.

Any ideas?

- Ron ^*^
Rechan
08-12-07, 06:21 PM Also, is there any religion tied to Argonessen, dragons, and/or the Chamber that might allow access to the Spell and Shadow domains?

Aside from the Seren, who worship dragons, I don't believe anything has been said about any religions relating to Argonessen.

Now, Dragons of Eberron, which comes out soon may very well have some information on that.

But seriously, what I would do? Have the character make up his own religion. In Eberron, you can pretty much believe anything, and have enough faith in it that you draw divine power from. So have him create a personal deity, or an ancestor.

Or have him worship an existing dragon.
rkr1970
08-12-07, 06:48 PM One small thing you're missing here...

THIS IS YOUR CAMPAIGN!!!

Anything you want is acceptable. You don't need to ask if XYZ is alright to do. If YOU feel it fits your game, then it's alright. You can have the Chamber hire kobolds if you feel like it. If you want to invent a new religeon, do it! Just make sure you do it because it's what you want to do for the game, either to make the player more comfortable or to round out your world.
Werebat
08-12-07, 08:12 PM One small thing you're missing here...

THIS IS YOUR CAMPAIGN!!!

Anything you want is acceptable. You don't need to ask if XYZ is alright to do. If YOU feel it fits your game, then it's alright. You can have the Chamber hire kobolds if you feel like it. If you want to invent a new religeon, do it! Just make sure you do it because it's what you want to do for the game, either to make the player more comfortable or to round out your world.

Eh... To be honest, I'm not thrilled with this character, and it doesn't fit into my campaign (which deals with orcs and goblinoids fighting aberrations) at all. I've already told the player but they don't seem to care. I'm just wondering if there is anything written about it that I could use.

So, nothing about religions from Argonessen, or how the Chamber treats draconic humans?

I suppose the new book may have something to say.

- Ron ^*^
Werebat
08-12-07, 08:15 PM Aside from the Seren, who worship dragons, I don't believe anything has been said about any religions relating to Argonessen.

Now, Dragons of Eberron, which comes out soon may very well have some information on that.

But seriously, what I would do? Have the character make up his own religion. In Eberron, you can pretty much believe anything, and have enough faith in it that you draw divine power from. So have him create a personal deity, or an ancestor.

Or have him worship an existing dragon.

Wait -- you can worship a live dragon in Eberron? How do you determine which domains you get?

I actually doubt the player would be interested, they don't really like to be tied down to a faith, let alone a deity, let alone a living mortal engine of destruction that might be able to withold their kewl powerz. Honestly I think they just picked two domains they felt would work well together mechanically and don't give a hang if they match a god or not. If they don't, so much the better because the player wants to be able to do what he wants and not have to answer to a god.

- Ron ^*^
Amaril
08-12-07, 08:36 PM There's a sect of worshippers of the Sovereign Host who worship their dragon aspects. The PC could easily be a fanatic of that sect. Alternatively, take a look at the draconic pantheon in Draconomicon or Races of the Dragon, both of which also feature the draconic template.
Burningspear
08-12-07, 08:48 PM Wait -- you can worship a live dragon in Eberron? How do you determine which domains you get?

I actually doubt the player would be interested, they don't really like to be tied down to a faith, let alone a deity, let alone a living mortal engine of destruction that might be able to withold their kewl powerz. Honestly I think they just picked two domains they felt would work well together mechanically and don't give a hang if they match a god or not. If they don't, so much the better because the player wants to be able to do what he wants and not have to answer to a god.

- Ron ^*^

Ahwww, blink blink :smirk: Can i Pweeazze play in your campaign and roleplay a kick ass priest just to show them the proper way of playing a religions person that has domains granted by his god, envisioning his true ideals of said god by not only using the domains but also having strictures put down that accompany the domains in question? :tie:
Rechan
08-12-07, 10:02 PM Wait -- you can worship a live dragon in Eberron? How do you determine which domains you get?

There are warforged that worship the Lord of Blades, and who get divine magic, even if the Lord of Blades is not a God. He cannot deny or grant them spells.

Divine magic in Eberron works like this: You believe in something. You believe Really Hard. From that faith springs magic.

That's how the Gods in Eberron are so detached, and it's wholly possible that they don't exist: because magic does not come from them.
Vharuck
08-12-07, 11:25 PM There are warforged that worship the Lord of Blades, and who get divine magic, even if the Lord of Blades is not a God. He cannot deny or grant them spells.

Divine magic in Eberron works like this: You believe in something. You believe Really Hard. From that faith springs magic.

That's how the Gods in Eberron are so detached, and it's wholly possible that they don't exist: because magic does not come from them.

That's one theory. But there's another theory. The LoB can't deny spells because he's not the one granting them, but that doesn't mean nobody's granting them. Onatar may be granting spells to his chosen children, the warforged. However, the gods don't deny spells to people who aren't effectively helping their cause because there are a lot of friggin' people who worship them. How could Balinor micro-manage and watch everything every cleric of his does?

The presence of the Eberron gods isn't obvious; that may mean that it doesn't exist, or it could mean that they're just really subtle. Nobody knows for sure, but everybody "knows."
Rechan
08-12-07, 11:44 PM The presence of the Eberron gods isn't obvious; that may mean that it doesn't exist, or it could mean that they're just really subtle. Nobody knows for sure, but everybody "knows."

That doesn't explain, though, who grants spells to those who worship things that are unrelated to the established Gods.

Unless you want to claim that the existing Gods grant spells to everybody in disguise, such as the Keeper granting spells to everyone from Blood of Vol clerics to clerics of the Undying Court.
Vharuck
08-13-07, 12:17 AM That doesn't explain, though, who grants spells to those who worship things that are unrelated to the established Gods.

Unless you want to claim that the existing Gods grant spells to everybody in disguise, such as the Keeper granting spells to everyone from Blood of Vol clerics to clerics of the Undying Court.

Bingo. It's an integral unknown in Eberron. Just like the nature of the Traveler, the cause of the Mournlands, and the fate of the lost quori hashalaq. Any theory may be true, but the only true one is the one decided by each individual DM in his/her own personal Eberron.
Rechan
08-13-07, 12:29 AM Bingo. It's an integral unknown in Eberron. Just like the nature of the Traveler, the cause of the Mournlands, and the fate of the lost quori hashalaq. Any theory may be true, but the only true one is the one decided by each individual DM in his/her own personal Eberron.

The existence of the Gods is one of the setting's mysteries, yes. But their existence or non-existence does not change the fact that Divine magic is not limited to worship of Gods, and a character who worships any ideal can get power.

The ECS on page 34-35 says "Other clerics across Eberron serve no church and claim no allegiance to any deity. ... They hold principles of alignment or other abstract ideals higher than the deities who claim these ideals in their portfolios, and they draw divine power from the pervasive spiritual force in the world, instead of channeling it through deities."
Werebat
08-13-07, 08:20 AM The existence of the Gods is one of the setting's mysteries, yes. But their existence or non-existence does not change the fact that Divine magic is not limited to worship of Gods, and a character who worships any ideal can get power.

The ECS on page 34-35 says "Other clerics across Eberron serve no church and claim no allegiance to any deity. ... They hold principles of alignment or other abstract ideals higher than the deities who claim these ideals in their portfolios, and they draw divine power from the pervasive spiritual force in the world, instead of channeling it through deities."

Translation: "Door's open, CharOp boys!"

I don't like this for my own reasons and I banished it from my game. The player then looked for a technical way to get his chosen domains in for his build (without having read word one about any Eberron gods beforehand) and found a lulu.

Now he wants to slap Draconic onto the pile as well and I'm wondering if there is really a way to do that. Yes I know that as DM I could let him play a two-headed orang-utan if I wanted to, but in this case I really don't have any pressing need to allow it. Just wondering if there is a real in-game reason to do so.

- Ron ^*^
DwarfPcfan
08-13-07, 09:46 AM Translation: "Door's open, CharOp boys!"

I don't like this for my own reasons and I banished it from my game. The player then looked for a technical way to get his chosen domains in for his build (without having read word one about any Eberron gods beforehand) and found a lulu.

Now he wants to slap Draconic onto the pile as well and I'm wondering if there is really a way to do that. Yes I know that as DM I could let him play a two-headed orang-utan if I wanted to, but in this case I really don't have any pressing need to allow it. Just wondering if there is a real in-game reason to do so.

- Ron ^*^

Before I say what I think about you're problem. 3 questions have to be answered:
1-How good a friend is that person?
2-Is he an irreedemable munchkin?
3-Does he even care about setting logic, concepts, and whatever else?

Because I'm reading you're post and it seems to me like he's just doing everything to be difficult in order to build optimal stat combo X.

My solution: Tell him either he gets with the programm or he sits this one out, period! remember You're the DM!

You're running an Eberron campaign about goblinoids fighting off aberrations not DnD everything goes campaign setting where any combination is allowed for munchkining purposes

Sorry for screaming:gah: , but DnD works 2 ways. If a player wants to play in certain game involving a certain setting. He has to accept that certain options are closed because the setting specifically bars these as reasonable options or creates something incompatible to an idea.

-FR does not have Sorcerer Kings because that Dark Sun
-Eberron dragons are mystical sages, mysterious prophets and scholars not the typical dragons of DnD. They don'T go around breeding with the mortal races, in fact it's a severe taboo (Vol anyone)

And you as a Dm have to do anything reasonably possible to make sure that players has as much fun as everybody else as long as that player does not destroy you're campaign or more importantly render it impossible for other you and players to have their fun!

I'm reading this and it seems like that player's simply crunching numbers. He's not being a good player and you're being to soft.

Fact of the matter is being a DM is a partnership with the players. But it's also a position of authority meaning that they are point where point and simple:you decide and the players have to either accept it or sit at least one game out

That's it problem solved!, that player simply looks for a better character concept or he leaves. Everyone else is in for a goblinoid campaigns and he comes along with a completely incompatible idea threatening to ruin you're campaign and everone one else's fun

There you go:cheer: :cheer:
Rechan
08-13-07, 03:21 PM Translation: "Door's open, CharOp boys!"

Not everyone is your player.

I like being able to have a cleric of any Concept. A long while ago, I created a church that lofted Galifar to religious heights - they basically worshiped the kings as divine entities, and added great heroes to their pantheon. And then the church was fractured when the Last War came, and you had traditionalist Galifarians who moved to Q'Barra, and you had splinter groups who formed churches to the appropriate countries. And then you had a splinter group of the Nation churches who thought that the ruler of their country was undermining the Idea of their nation, and so they formed an underground political resistance.

Sure, you can say that it allows any munchkin to slap two domains on their character and have at it, but you're forgetting that the DM has the right to say, "Uh, no." Just like the DM has the right to say "No, you're not using the Complete books."

This allows the PC Valenar to worship particular ancestors and getting power from them. It makes creating Cultists so simple. It means that if I don't like the seven good gods in Eberron, or like the SF or SH churches, I can be a cleric of something else.

Just because some munchkins abuse the theological source of divine magic, does not mean that it is meant for abuse.
yrogerg
08-13-07, 09:09 PM The existence of the Gods is one of the setting's mysteries, yes. But their existence or non-existence does not change the fact that Divine magic is not limited to worship of Gods, and a character who worships any ideal can get power.

The ECS on page 34-35 says "Other clerics across Eberron serve no church and claim no allegiance to any deity. ... They hold principles of alignment or other abstract ideals higher than the deities who claim these ideals in their portfolios, and they draw divine power from the pervasive spiritual force in the world, instead of channeling it through deities."

Right, but that doesn't stop some groups (*cough* The Sovereign Host) from believing that other religions *are* still worshiping their gods. Linking the BoV to the Keeper or the Shadow or even the Mockery is straightfoward enough, the Silver Flame-Dol Arrah link exists already, for the LoB/Becoming God, you have your choice of Onatar and the Traveller, and the Undying Court, IMO, could be being revered as a stand-in for the Sovereign of Community, whose name I'm currently forgetting. True, it's not really provable what the source of divine power is or where it's coming from, but many Sovereigns would point out that this power flows much more easily for these established religions (which, parenthetically, are really just stand-ins for the Host and the Six), than for many others.
Rechan
08-13-07, 09:50 PM Right, but that doesn't stop some groups (*cough* The Sovereign Host) from believing that other religions *are* still worshiping their gods.

Of course. That's a wholly legitimate in character viewpoint. After all, the Soverigns have a history of coming in and saying "You guys are worshiping our gods, you just don't know it, so we'll just take this here idol you're worshiping and slap our god's name on the bottom with this shiny plaque." It would be unsurprising if a SH worshiper didn't believe any gods but the SH (and Dark Six) existed - that everything else is JUST the workings of these twelve gods.

But we're talking about out of character knowledge, and the source of divine magic, and how clerics do not have to worship Gods to get their power.
yrogerg
08-14-07, 09:06 AM Of course. That's a wholly legitimate in character viewpoint. After all, the Soverigns have a history of coming in and saying "You guys are worshiping our gods, you just don't know it, so we'll just take this here idol you're worshiping and slap our god's name on the bottom with this shiny plaque." It would be unsurprising if a SH worshiper didn't believe any gods but the SH (and Dark Six) existed - that everything else is JUST the workings of these twelve gods.

But we're talking about out of character knowledge, and the source of divine magic, and how clerics do not have to worship Gods to get their power.

Right, but my point was that part of the point of it being a setting mystery, is that out-of-character, we really can't say one way or another whether they're right or not. They *could* be right.
Rechan
08-14-07, 09:55 AM Right, but my point was that part of the point of it being a setting mystery, is that out-of-character, we really can't say one way or another whether they're right or not. They *could* be right.

And again, this does not dispute the fact that Clerics can Worship Anything. No matter who is Granting the magic, the Cleric's Faith is not limited to the Gods.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Werebat 08-12-07, 06:03 PM	OK, this might get convoluted, please bear with me. A player IMC wants to play a cleric with a very specific pair of domains (Spell and Shadow). His PC HAS! TO! HAVE! these exact domains, no other domains will do! Of course the only deities to hold them that I know of are Aureon and the Shadow, diametrically opposed deities, so there you are. Someone found an obscure mention of an old deity called the Sovereign of Light and Darkness who was apparently worshipped by humans on Reidra long ago, and that remnants of worshipping populations still exist in remote islands of Lhazaar. This deity represents a joining of Aureon and his Shadow and has access to both of their domain lists. We ran with that an invented a Lhazaarian human of Reidran stock who followed this religion. This worked pretty well because the player also wants to multiclass into psion and psychic theurge, and Reidrans have psionic traditions. Later the player learned that they could do something similar with a Kalashtar who possibly followed the Dreamseeker Path (I think that's what it's called). Then they learned about the Draconic template and wanted that for the +2 Cha. Now I'm wondering if it might not be easier to have the PC be a Draconic human with gem dragon ancestry and ties to the Chamber. This would account for the psionic ability (gem dragons are psionically endowed), but I'm not sure about the Spell and Shadow domains. I guess in a nutshell what I'm asking is -- does the Chamber ever employ Draconic agents, or are Draconic members of the lesser races universally shunned and hated? Also, is there any religion tied to Argonessen, dragons, and/or the Chamber that might allow access to the Spell and Shadow domains? Whew, that was a lot. This is one convoluted character he wants to play, smells like something from CharOp. Any ideas? - Ron ^*^
Rechan 08-12-07, 06:21 PM	Also, is there any religion tied to Argonessen, dragons, and/or the Chamber that might allow access to the Spell and Shadow domains? Aside from the Seren, who worship dragons, I don't believe anything has been said about any religions relating to Argonessen. Now, Dragons of Eberron, which comes out soon may very well have some information on that. But seriously, what I would do? Have the character make up his own religion. In Eberron, you can pretty much believe anything, and have enough faith in it that you draw divine power from. So have him create a personal deity, or an ancestor. Or have him worship an existing dragon.
rkr1970 08-12-07, 06:48 PM	One small thing you're missing here... THIS IS YOUR CAMPAIGN!!! Anything you want is acceptable. You don't need to ask if XYZ is alright to do. If YOU feel it fits your game, then it's alright. You can have the Chamber hire kobolds if you feel like it. If you want to invent a new religeon, do it! Just make sure you do it because it's what you want to do for the game, either to make the player more comfortable or to round out your world.
Werebat 08-12-07, 08:12 PM	One small thing you're missing here... THIS IS YOUR CAMPAIGN!!! Anything you want is acceptable. You don't need to ask if XYZ is alright to do. If YOU feel it fits your game, then it's alright. You can have the Chamber hire kobolds if you feel like it. If you want to invent a new religeon, do it! Just make sure you do it because it's what you want to do for the game, either to make the player more comfortable or to round out your world. Eh... To be honest, I'm not thrilled with this character, and it doesn't fit into my campaign (which deals with orcs and goblinoids fighting aberrations) at all. I've already told the player but they don't seem to care. I'm just wondering if there is anything written about it that I could use. So, nothing about religions from Argonessen, or how the Chamber treats draconic humans? I suppose the new book may have something to say. - Ron ^*^
Werebat 08-12-07, 08:15 PM	Aside from the Seren, who worship dragons, I don't believe anything has been said about any religions relating to Argonessen. Now, Dragons of Eberron, which comes out soon may very well have some information on that. But seriously, what I would do? Have the character make up his own religion. In Eberron, you can pretty much believe anything, and have enough faith in it that you draw divine power from. So have him create a personal deity, or an ancestor. Or have him worship an existing dragon. Wait -- you can worship a live dragon in Eberron? How do you determine which domains you get? I actually doubt the player would be interested, they don't really like to be tied down to a faith, let alone a deity, let alone a living mortal engine of destruction that might be able to withold their kewl powerz. Honestly I think they just picked two domains they felt would work well together mechanically and don't give a hang if they match a god or not. If they don't, so much the better because the player wants to be able to do what he wants and not have to answer to a god. - Ron ^*^
Amaril 08-12-07, 08:36 PM	There's a sect of worshippers of the Sovereign Host who worship their dragon aspects. The PC could easily be a fanatic of that sect. Alternatively, take a look at the draconic pantheon in Draconomicon or Races of the Dragon, both of which also feature the draconic template.
Burningspear 08-12-07, 08:48 PM	Wait -- you can worship a live dragon in Eberron? How do you determine which domains you get? I actually doubt the player would be interested, they don't really like to be tied down to a faith, let alone a deity, let alone a living mortal engine of destruction that might be able to withold their kewl powerz. Honestly I think they just picked two domains they felt would work well together mechanically and don't give a hang if they match a god or not. If they don't, so much the better because the player wants to be able to do what he wants and not have to answer to a god. - Ron ^*^ Ahwww, blink blink :smirk: Can i Pweeazze play in your campaign and roleplay a kick ass priest just to show them the proper way of playing a religions person that has domains granted by his god, envisioning his true ideals of said god by not only using the domains but also having strictures put down that accompany the domains in question? :tie:
Rechan 08-12-07, 10:02 PM	Wait -- you can worship a live dragon in Eberron? How do you determine which domains you get? There are warforged that worship the Lord of Blades, and who get divine magic, even if the Lord of Blades is not a God. He cannot deny or grant them spells. Divine magic in Eberron works like this: You believe in something. You believe Really Hard. From that faith springs magic. That's how the Gods in Eberron are so detached, and it's wholly possible that they don't exist: because magic does not come from them.
Vharuck 08-12-07, 11:25 PM	There are warforged that worship the Lord of Blades, and who get divine magic, even if the Lord of Blades is not a God. He cannot deny or grant them spells. Divine magic in Eberron works like this: You believe in something. You believe Really Hard. From that faith springs magic. That's how the Gods in Eberron are so detached, and it's wholly possible that they don't exist: because magic does not come from them. That's one theory. But there's another theory. The LoB can't deny spells because he's not the one granting them, but that doesn't mean nobody's granting them. Onatar may be granting spells to his chosen children, the warforged. However, the gods don't deny spells to people who aren't effectively helping their cause because there are a lot of friggin' people who worship them. How could Balinor micro-manage and watch everything every cleric of his does? The presence of the Eberron gods isn't obvious; that may mean that it doesn't exist, or it could mean that they're just really subtle. Nobody knows for sure, but everybody "knows."
Rechan 08-12-07, 11:44 PM	The presence of the Eberron gods isn't obvious; that may mean that it doesn't exist, or it could mean that they're just really subtle. Nobody knows for sure, but everybody "knows." That doesn't explain, though, who grants spells to those who worship things that are unrelated to the established Gods. Unless you want to claim that the existing Gods grant spells to everybody in disguise, such as the Keeper granting spells to everyone from Blood of Vol clerics to clerics of the Undying Court.
Vharuck 08-13-07, 12:17 AM	That doesn't explain, though, who grants spells to those who worship things that are unrelated to the established Gods. Unless you want to claim that the existing Gods grant spells to everybody in disguise, such as the Keeper granting spells to everyone from Blood of Vol clerics to clerics of the Undying Court. Bingo. It's an integral unknown in Eberron. Just like the nature of the Traveler, the cause of the Mournlands, and the fate of the lost quori hashalaq. Any theory may be true, but the only true one is the one decided by each individual DM in his/her own personal Eberron.
Rechan 08-13-07, 12:29 AM	Bingo. It's an integral unknown in Eberron. Just like the nature of the Traveler, the cause of the Mournlands, and the fate of the lost quori hashalaq. Any theory may be true, but the only true one is the one decided by each individual DM in his/her own personal Eberron. The existence of the Gods is one of the setting's mysteries, yes. But their existence or non-existence does not change the fact that Divine magic is not limited to worship of Gods, and a character who worships any ideal can get power. The ECS on page 34-35 says "Other clerics across Eberron serve no church and claim no allegiance to any deity. ... They hold principles of alignment or other abstract ideals higher than the deities who claim these ideals in their portfolios, and they draw divine power from the pervasive spiritual force in the world, instead of channeling it through deities."
Werebat 08-13-07, 08:20 AM	The existence of the Gods is one of the setting's mysteries, yes. But their existence or non-existence does not change the fact that Divine magic is not limited to worship of Gods, and a character who worships any ideal can get power. The ECS on page 34-35 says "Other clerics across Eberron serve no church and claim no allegiance to any deity. ... They hold principles of alignment or other abstract ideals higher than the deities who claim these ideals in their portfolios, and they draw divine power from the pervasive spiritual force in the world, instead of channeling it through deities." Translation: "Door's open, CharOp boys!" I don't like this for my own reasons and I banished it from my game. The player then looked for a technical way to get his chosen domains in for his build (without having read word one about any Eberron gods beforehand) and found a lulu. Now he wants to slap Draconic onto the pile as well and I'm wondering if there is really a way to do that. Yes I know that as DM I could let him play a two-headed orang-utan if I wanted to, but in this case I really don't have any pressing need to allow it. Just wondering if there is a real in-game reason to do so. - Ron ^*^
DwarfPcfan 08-13-07, 09:46 AM	Translation: "Door's open, CharOp boys!" I don't like this for my own reasons and I banished it from my game. The player then looked for a technical way to get his chosen domains in for his build (without having read word one about any Eberron gods beforehand) and found a lulu. Now he wants to slap Draconic onto the pile as well and I'm wondering if there is really a way to do that. Yes I know that as DM I could let him play a two-headed orang-utan if I wanted to, but in this case I really don't have any pressing need to allow it. Just wondering if there is a real in-game reason to do so. - Ron ^*^ Before I say what I think about you're problem. 3 questions have to be answered: 1-How good a friend is that person? 2-Is he an irreedemable munchkin? 3-Does he even care about setting logic, concepts, and whatever else? Because I'm reading you're post and it seems to me like he's just doing everything to be difficult in order to build optimal stat combo X. My solution: Tell him either he gets with the programm or he sits this one out, period! remember You're the DM! You're running an Eberron campaign about goblinoids fighting off aberrations not DnD everything goes campaign setting where any combination is allowed for munchkining purposes Sorry for screaming:gah: , but DnD works 2 ways. If a player wants to play in certain game involving a certain setting. He has to accept that certain options are closed because the setting specifically bars these as reasonable options or creates something incompatible to an idea. -FR does not have Sorcerer Kings because that Dark Sun -Eberron dragons are mystical sages, mysterious prophets and scholars not the typical dragons of DnD. They don'T go around breeding with the mortal races, in fact it's a severe taboo (Vol anyone) And you as a Dm have to do anything reasonably possible to make sure that players has as much fun as everybody else as long as that player does not destroy you're campaign or more importantly render it impossible for other you and players to have their fun! I'm reading this and it seems like that player's simply crunching numbers. He's not being a good player and you're being to soft. Fact of the matter is being a DM is a partnership with the players. But it's also a position of authority meaning that they are point where point and simple:you decide and the players have to either accept it or sit at least one game out That's it problem solved!, that player simply looks for a better character concept or he leaves. Everyone else is in for a goblinoid campaigns and he comes along with a completely incompatible idea threatening to ruin you're campaign and everone one else's fun There you go:cheer: :cheer:
Rechan 08-13-07, 03:21 PM	Translation: "Door's open, CharOp boys!" Not everyone is your player. I like being able to have a cleric of any Concept. A long while ago, I created a church that lofted Galifar to religious heights - they basically worshiped the kings as divine entities, and added great heroes to their pantheon. And then the church was fractured when the Last War came, and you had traditionalist Galifarians who moved to Q'Barra, and you had splinter groups who formed churches to the appropriate countries. And then you had a splinter group of the Nation churches who thought that the ruler of their country was undermining the Idea of their nation, and so they formed an underground political resistance. Sure, you can say that it allows any munchkin to slap two domains on their character and have at it, but you're forgetting that the DM has the right to say, "Uh, no." Just like the DM has the right to say "No, you're not using the Complete books." This allows the PC Valenar to worship particular ancestors and getting power from them. It makes creating Cultists so simple. It means that if I don't like the seven good gods in Eberron, or like the SF or SH churches, I can be a cleric of something else. Just because some munchkins abuse the theological source of divine magic, does not mean that it is meant for abuse.
yrogerg 08-13-07, 09:09 PM	The existence of the Gods is one of the setting's mysteries, yes. But their existence or non-existence does not change the fact that Divine magic is not limited to worship of Gods, and a character who worships any ideal can get power. The ECS on page 34-35 says "Other clerics across Eberron serve no church and claim no allegiance to any deity. ... They hold principles of alignment or other abstract ideals higher than the deities who claim these ideals in their portfolios, and they draw divine power from the pervasive spiritual force in the world, instead of channeling it through deities." Right, but that doesn't stop some groups (cough The Sovereign Host) from believing that other religions are still worshiping their gods. Linking the BoV to the Keeper or the Shadow or even the Mockery is straightfoward enough, the Silver Flame-Dol Arrah link exists already, for the LoB/Becoming God, you have your choice of Onatar and the Traveller, and the Undying Court, IMO, could be being revered as a stand-in for the Sovereign of Community, whose name I'm currently forgetting. True, it's not really provable what the source of divine power is or where it's coming from, but many Sovereigns would point out that this power flows much more easily for these established religions (which, parenthetically, are really just stand-ins for the Host and the Six), than for many others.
Rechan 08-13-07, 09:50 PM	Right, but that doesn't stop some groups (cough The Sovereign Host) from believing that other religions are still worshiping their gods. Of course. That's a wholly legitimate in character viewpoint. After all, the Soverigns have a history of coming in and saying "You guys are worshiping our gods, you just don't know it, so we'll just take this here idol you're worshiping and slap our god's name on the bottom with this shiny plaque." It would be unsurprising if a SH worshiper didn't believe any gods but the SH (and Dark Six) existed - that everything else is JUST the workings of these twelve gods. But we're talking about out of character knowledge, and the source of divine magic, and how clerics do not have to worship Gods to get their power.
yrogerg 08-14-07, 09:06 AM	Of course. That's a wholly legitimate in character viewpoint. After all, the Soverigns have a history of coming in and saying "You guys are worshiping our gods, you just don't know it, so we'll just take this here idol you're worshiping and slap our god's name on the bottom with this shiny plaque." It would be unsurprising if a SH worshiper didn't believe any gods but the SH (and Dark Six) existed - that everything else is JUST the workings of these twelve gods. But we're talking about out of character knowledge, and the source of divine magic, and how clerics do not have to worship Gods to get their power. Right, but my point was that part of the point of it being a setting mystery, is that out-of-character, we really can't say one way or another whether they're right or not. They could be right.
Rechan 08-14-07, 09:55 AM	Right, but my point was that part of the point of it being a setting mystery, is that out-of-character, we really can't say one way or another whether they're right or not. They could be right. And again, this does not dispute the fact that Clerics can Worship Anything. No matter who is Granting the magic, the Cleric's Faith is not limited to the Gods.