| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| Ryoden_Anariavas02-23-07, 12:31 AM | A player in my up comming campaing wants to ride a dragon. Obviously in a regular campaing that would not be a big problem but I am running an eberron campaing. I was thinking of it being a draconic creature or a half dragon or something like that (a half hippogrif/white was my idea) and I want the character to gain access to the mount asap. I am not sure how to do this. we havent built the character yet so all options are still open. I would realy like some suggestions for how to do this well. Thanks |
| rabidclipper02-23-07, 02:58 PM | Hmm... well, any actual dragon is out of the picture in Eberron (notwithstanding the ridiculous "Drow riding a White Dragon in the jungle" in one of the published adventures - must have been some FR designer involved in that...) I would say that if it is possible at his level, what about a wyvern? House Vadalis breeds all sorts of flying mounts (pegasi and griffons are mentioned in the ECS), so why nto a wyvern? It is technically a "dragon" subtype, not so ridiculously overpowered as to be unusable. Also, it would be sufficiently animalistic not to be a "my 3rd level ranger with Int 12 is flying a 18 HD dragon with Int 28.... but I'm the boss!" situation which is not really rational. What you may wnat to do is strip the wyvern of its poison stinger to reduce its CR to a level more commensurate with a PC mount. House Vadalis would likely have bred the line of Wyvern mounts not to have tihs, because otherwise they could skewer and easily kill their riders - and even carefully bred and domesticated wyverns would be pretty likely to do soemthing like that in the middle of the chaos and excitement of a battle! Hope that helps... A player in my up comming campaing wants to ride a dragon. Obviously in a regular campaing that would not be a big problem but I am running an eberron campaing. I was thinking of it being a draconic creature or a half dragon or something like that (a half hippogrif/white was my idea) and I want the character to gain access to the mount asap. I am not sure how to do this. we havent built the character yet so all options are still open. I would realy like some suggestions for how to do this well. Thanks |
| Ryoden_Anariavas02-23-07, 03:10 PM | I was thinking of a "dumbed down" wyvern but I am having trouble figuring out what its ECL is and how to make it powerfull enough yet not overpowering. I also am having trouble with how it is supposed to grow with the character. the leadership feat makes sence but do I advance the mount by class level or by hit dice? |
| DwarfPcfan02-23-07, 04:31 PM | First of all paladin mounts follow only 3 rules 1- a mount without other means of mouvement than walking/running, must have a CR no higher then the paladin's ECL -2 thus a 5th level paladin gets a heavy warhorse, a 6th level paladin can get a unicorn. 2-Mounts with flight, blink, teleportation etc, must not have a Cr higher then the Paladins ECL-4 thus a 8th level paladin could have an hyppogriff as his mount 3-Such a mount must be suitable and of course not evil. simple... At 10th level, your paladin could easily have a wyvern (wich at this point would not be overpowered) |
| Cabral02-24-07, 01:41 AM | There's a Dragonelle or something in the Draconomicon that is meant to be available as a Dragon-Type PC mount. It kind of looks like a skinny half-dragon cow though ... |
| Anguirus2302-24-07, 02:13 AM | There's a much cooler draconic-type mount in Dragon Magic. Kind of like a half-dragon warhorse in looks, but quite different in terms of ability. (Flavor-wise, it's the descendent of a half-dragon warhorse, IIRC. For Eberron, you could call 'em a Vadalis breeding experiment...) |
| Cabral02-25-07, 07:32 PM | You could also just apply the Draconic template (Draconomicon again) to a mount you'd like to use. |
| Edymnion02-25-07, 07:53 PM | I also am having trouble with how it is supposed to grow with the character.Uh, it doesn't. Its a mount. Mounts by default are never anywhere near as powerful as their riders, its the major drawback to any mounted character. Your horse is *ALWAYS* (well, after the very early levels) going to have a lower AC and less hp than you. You can upgrade to bigger, badder mounts as you get more powerful, but you typically don't keep a single creature as a mount and try to make it scale up. |
| Tevin Kevlak02-26-07, 02:04 AM | Uh, it doesn't. Its a mount. Mounts by default are never anywhere near as powerful as their riders, its the major drawback to any mounted character. Your horse is *ALWAYS* (well, after the very early levels) going to have a lower AC and less hp than you. You can upgrade to bigger, badder mounts as you get more powerful, but you typically don't keep a single creature as a mount and try to make it scale up. Unless of course you are a Paladin, Blackguard, Druid, Ranger, Cavalier, or Beastmaster. (That's just off the top of my head too) |
| Cabral02-26-07, 08:03 AM | In which case it's not a mount, it's a class feature. :P |
| DwarfPcfan02-26-07, 09:12 AM | Paladin mounts weak:uh-huh: I see you've never had the pleasure of playing my dwarf paladin6/ranger4/Cavalier10:D There's nothing weak about riding an angry celestial griffon. As a matter of fact, he was a mounstrous killing machine. (Full mounted attack, pounce, rhine rush, heavylance), Killed a pit fiend in single charge... |
| Ryoden_Anariavas02-26-07, 10:20 AM | I've been thinking of making a new monster specificaly for this use. So far I only have the Flavor of it worked out. "20 years ago the house Vadalis mages were set to a task that seemed impossible. In an effort to contend with the other mercinaries in Khorvaire they were tasked with providing a truly unique mount for a House Vadalis mercinary company. Though the war has ended and a fighting cavalry is in less demand the vadalis mages were so close that they decided to proceed. They were charged with harnesing the greate power of the dragons as a flying mount for the upcoming mercinary company. The result is a truly wonderfull creature, Through the intense use of magical help a crossbreed of Wyverns and Spiretop Dragons has been born. The truly impresive thing about theese creatures is not thier lineage but is infact thier bond with thier rider. The draconic mount is born with a need to bind itself to another mind, the rider who has shown themself worthy to the Vadalis breeders. This binding is responsible for the close attachment and fierce loyalty that the dragon shows the rider. A flying mount is no stranger to the skys of Khorvaire but this new breed from the skill of house vadalis will surely be a formidable force to contend with" I realize this is very PERNesque but I want to do it right so help will be apreciated. I am not sure if I should make the Vadalis Dracomount a feature of a PrC or a special form of cohort. If I go the PrC route I can base it off of the Skylord PrC from Book of Exalted Deeds, the soonest you can get into that class is level 8. The pegasus has a ECL of 6 so the soonest you could get it as a cohort is level 8 but I want to shoot for level 6 and am not sure how to get it right. |
| Edymnion02-26-07, 12:19 PM | Unless of course you are a Paladin, Blackguard, Druid, Ranger, Cavalier, or Beastmaster. (That's just off the top of my head too) In which case it's not a mount, it's a class feature. :PDing ding ding, correct answer! A generic mount is not a class feature, it is essentially a piece of equipment. If you want a mount that scales with you, it is not a feature of the mount you are looking for, but a class feature that allows the mount to advance. Which means that, unless the character in question has such a class feature, then they are stuck with default mounts. They can upgrade over time to something bigger (like going from a pony to a magebred heavy warhorse), but they'll never be able to make that pony go toe to toe with the mhw, not without sinking a *LOT* of their character wealth into pony armor and amulets of natural pony attacks. I mean, sure, its cool to have Sunshine the Pony slobbering with a +5 Vorpal Acidic Burst bite attack, but you could have spent that money on yourself. By the time you sink enough cash into a normal mount to make it competative with the monsters it will face, you don't have anything left over for your character. Basically, you are playing the pony, not the rider. |
| Tevin Kevlak02-26-07, 03:04 PM | In which case it's not a mount, it's a class feature. :P Like the class feature Special MOUNT? |
| Tevin Kevlak02-26-07, 03:10 PM | Ding ding ding, correct answer! A generic mount is not a class feature, it is essentially a piece of equipment. If you want a mount that scales with you, it is not a feature of the mount you are looking for, but a class feature that allows the mount to advance. Which means that, unless the character in question has such a class feature, then they are stuck with default mounts. They can upgrade over time to something bigger (like going from a pony to a magebred heavy warhorse), but they'll never be able to make that pony go toe to toe with the mhw, not without sinking a *LOT* of their character wealth into pony armor and amulets of natural pony attacks. I mean, sure, its cool to have Sunshine the Pony slobbering with a +5 Vorpal Acidic Burst bite attack, but you could have spent that money on yourself. By the time you sink enough cash into a normal mount to make it competative with the monsters it will face, you don't have anything left over for your character. Basically, you are playing the pony, not the rider. But if the OP is talking about a mount that scales it's likely that he's talking about a character that could have such a thing, that seems like a logical conclusion to jump to, no? Like he said, he's thinking of working it into a class feature of a PrC so it's safe to say this is going to be a major part of the character. Also, why does a mount suddenly stop being a mount and become a class feature because a character has something that augments the mount? I don't understand your reasoning there... if I become a Kensai is my Scimitar no longer a weapon? Is it a class feature now? "Taste the bite of my +5 Vorpal class feature, fiend!" |
| Cabral02-26-07, 09:34 PM | Like the class feature Special MOUNT? Yes. Class feature. ;) Somewhere buried on the WotC website is an article about Animal Companions as feat, where the animal companion abilities scale by character level. That will turn your mount into a feat benefit. :) |
| Ryoden_Anariavas02-27-07, 09:22 AM | If anyone has any USEFULL advice for me I will give them a cookie... If on the other hand we are going to just argue simantics then by all means go cookie free :P po`tato:duel:pota`to |
| Ryoden_Anariavas02-27-07, 09:29 AM | Regardless of how you label it my goal is... 1:a combanion of the PC 2:that she happens to ride on the back of 3:and is of the flying dragon variety 4:that increases in power with the player. |
| Kid SixXx02-27-07, 09:40 AM | A player in my up comming campaing wants to ride a dragon. Obviously in a regular campaing that would not be a big problem but I am running an eberron campaing. Why is that a deal breaking feature. Has your player told you exactly why he / she wants to ride a dragon? If it's just for the kewl factor you might want to decide against it and ask the PC to return his copy of Eragon back to the library, as Eberron dragons are indeed a bit more discerning of whom they allow to ride them, to say the least. ;) OTOH, if your PC is playing a PrC such as the Dragon Prophet from MoE, then it may be perfectly reasonable to have the player have access to his draconic sponsor (ie. the relative maturity of the dragon could be a factor) as an occasional mount, although the relationship would be a bit reversed. A young dragon seeking to rise in the ranks of The Chamber will most likely be willing enough to lend wing to the PC prophet directly serving him. I don't think that it is too far fetched to have a Dragon Prophet's sponsor occasionally give him a ride to events that may or may not have something to do with the Prophecy, in order to have the PC observe (or act) in those events. Mechanically, having the dragon sponsor act as a mount would help "redline" some travel in order to make adventures run a bit more smoothly. |
| DragonWatcher02-27-07, 01:10 PM | Okay, my attempt at useful advice: Regardless of how you label it my goal is... 1:a combanion of the PC First question, are you going to be using regular starting classes that are published or are you going to be making up your own? The reason I ask is that while Druids gain animal companions at first level, Rangers don't gain them until 4th level, Paladins don't get their mount until 5th level, and characters cannot gain the Leadership feat until 6th level. So if you're using published classes, I don't see a good way (other than being a Druid) for this character to have a "special" animal companion until 4th level or higher. 2:that she happens to ride on the back of It is perfectly legal for a character to ride their animal companion if they have one that is suitable to ride. 3:and is of the flying dragon variety You say that you want this available to the character as soon as possible, but giving the PCs (or even one of them) access to flight at any level below which a wizard can cast the spell is a BAD IDEA. This character will regularly be able to overcome obstacles that you may intend to guide the party in another direction. The character will be able to avoid melee attacks regularly, and can likely cover more ground than everyone else. Challenge Ratings for most opponents will be meaningless since the PC will be able to stay out of range and pelt the opponent with spells or missile weapons. This is a potential game-breaker, and I'm speaking from experience. Additionally, how many players do you have? Are you going to be giving everyone else flying mounts, or other high-powered advantages from the start? If not this game is going to feel like it's entirely about the character with the dragon mount, and they won't be able to compete with what s/he can do. If you do "balance" things by giving big bonuses to all of your players, you will be further devaluing the CR of opponents. This has a tendency of "painting the DM into a corner" so to speak, where in order to challenge your players, you have to use monsters that will either not be able to hit them, or they are so powerful that you're PCs won't be able to survive the fight. 4:that increases in power with the player. Animal companions and the Paladin's (Blackguard's) mount are the only mounts in the game that are made to scale up with the character. If you want this, then the dragon really should fall into one of those two categories (whether through a regular class, or one that you create yourself). Alternately, you could use rules similar to those from Weapons of Legacy to scale the mount up as though it was any other Legacy Item. In any case, I understand that you want to let your player play something cool, but you have to be careful not to let a cool idea ruin the game for everyone else. If it were me, I would likely just use the stats for a horse, and describe it as a dragon. I would then use the Weapons of Legacy rules to allow the creature to advance with the character later, gaining breath weapon, flight, better armor, etc. All in all though, it's your game... have fun. :) |
| Ryoden_Anariavas02-27-07, 03:03 PM | :cookie: Thank you DragonWatcher You bring up alot of good points all of wich I have been trying to juggle with most importantly is how do I keep the game balanced for all of the players and still allow the draconic mount in at an early level (around lv 6) |
| Tevin Kevlak02-27-07, 03:37 PM | Yes. Class feature. ;) Somewhere buried on the WotC website is an article about Animal Companions as feat, where the animal companion abilities scale by character level. That will turn your mount into a feat benefit. :) Actually that will allow your mount to benefit from a feat you've taken. Just as your mount benefits from a class feature if you are one of the classes I mentioned above. Because you gain something that augments it does not make it cease to be what it is, and that's a mount. If I buy a heavy warhorse is it not a heavy warhorse? Does it suddenly become a "wealth feature" or "aquisition" because I used some of my PC's resources to gain it? No, it's still a mount and it will continue to be a mount as long as the character who owns said mount decides to use it as such. My advice to you and your player is to use a class like the Paladin that already has rules in place for handling such things and either use that class or use the rules presented there to create something all your own. I believe there are rules for draconic mounts in the Draconomicon so that might be worth checking out. |
| Cabral02-27-07, 07:46 PM | If anyone has any USEFULL advice for me I will give them a cookie... I already gave you useful advice :P Track down the Animal Companion feat on the WotC website. Is there a reason you are adverse to this, or did you just not take my suggestion seriously? :) There is another class-independant way to improve your horse: The higher your Ride skill can be your mount's AC once per round if you have Mounted Combat. An oddball possibility is Awaken to gain +2HD and the ability to take class levels ... but then, how do you know your mount will still want to be a mount? Maybe you just awakened your next recurring villain ... Because you gain something that augments it does not make it cease to be what it is, and that's a mount. If I buy a heavy warhorse is it not a heavy warhorse? Does it suddenly become a "wealth feature" or "aquisition" because I used some of my PC's resources to gain it? No, it's still a mount and it will continue to be a mount as long as the character who owns said mount decides to use it as such. It's not the source of the mount that determines the function, it's the source that determines whether it scales with the PC. Class features and sometime feats scale with the character levels. Equipment usually does not without expenditure of extra cash. If you buy a sword, it won't get better just because you gained a level (Though you may wield it better); you can enchant it to make it better. If you buy a horse, it won't get better because you gained a level (though you may ride it better); you can buy a better mount or buy better gear for it. |
| Tevin Kevlak02-28-07, 02:12 AM | So, in my above example where I asked if a Kensai's weapon suddenly ceases to be a weapon and becomes known as a class feature is actually what you believe? So my monk/kensai no longer has unarmed strikes, he has class features? Yeah, that makes a whole lot of sense. :P "I had a rough day today, I stubbed my class feature on the table, tripped, and hit my class feature on the coffee table. I hope I didn't cause my class feature any permanent damage... I don't know what I would do if I had to put my class feature in a sling." |
| Cabral02-28-07, 08:18 AM | So, in my above example where I asked if a Kensai's weapon suddenly ceases to be a weapon and becomes known as a class feature is actually what you believe? So my monk/kensai no longer has unarmed strikes, he has class features? Yeah, that makes a whole lot of sense. :P It's still an unarmed strike, but now it's also a "class feature" that scales with his monk/kensai levels rather than being "equipment". It's another example that without class features/feats, things don't normally scale with character level. level 1 human unarmed combat damage? 1d3 level 20 human unarmed combat damage? 1d3 Now, the level 20 human might be able to improve those unarmed strikes with an amulet of mighty fists, but that's not scaling with level. By the way, if you haven't found it yet, here is the Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) feat. |
| maollelujah02-28-07, 08:19 AM | Regardless of how you label it my goal is... 1:a combanion of the PC 2:that she happens to ride on the back of 3:and is of the flying dragon variety 4:that increases in power with the player. 1. If the PC is off a class where it can gain an animal companion then use that, if not just give the PC that feature. I would make them burn a feat to gain it though. 2 and 3. As for the "Dragon", if you want a real dragon then just pick one. But one large enough to fly on would be a rather powerful creature. If you want a draconic creature, then take a wyvern or a drake. (For example: a horned felldrake (MMII): make it large and give it wings (fly 80 ft. poor) and voila a flying dragon that isn't too powerful.) Now if you don't want it to be able to fly right off the bat, say it is still young (medium-size) and too weak to fly with a creature on its back as of yet. 4. Use the Animal Companion table to increase its power. If you want to give it a breath weapon/flight/size increase/other special powers, just add them to the table where you would like it to gain those powers. As for keeping a balance. It will cost to keep the creature feed. If the character is not lugging around supplies of meat to feed the creature, then it will need to hunt. They will need to be able to stable it when they go to a big city or let remain outside the city (which might cause some problems on its own.) |
| Ryoden_Anariavas02-28-07, 10:04 AM | Thanks everyone for the pointers :cookie: :cookie: :cookie: I think I am going to make a prestege class that grants the mount as a cohort and create a unique creature to be the mount/cohort it will then be able to take levels/gain racialHD when the character does and maby gain other special abilities(breath weapon/flight) when it reaches X number of hit dice Once I have it typed up I will post it in a new thread. Thanks again |
| Tevin Kevlak03-01-07, 03:56 AM | It's still an unarmed strike, but now it's also a "class feature" that scales with his monk/kensai levels rather than being "equipment". It's another example that without class features/feats, things don't normally scale with character level. level 1 human unarmed combat damage? 1d3 level 20 human unarmed combat damage? 1d3 Now, the level 20 human might be able to improve those unarmed strikes with an amulet of mighty fists, but that's not scaling with level. By the way, if you haven't found it yet, here is the Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) feat. But a mount is just a class feature and not a mount while an unarmed strike is still an unarmed strike and a class feature? So which things that are augmented by class features get to keep their actual title and which ones just become known as class features then? Is there a chart? Is it because an unarmed strike isn't equipment? Why does equipment cease being equipment and become class features when you have a class that augments it? Is it for all equipment, like a greataxe of longsword or is it a special rule only for mounts? Or is it just not the case because a horse being used as a mount, even while augmented by a class feature, is still a mount and the term mount is not as unacceptable as you'd make us believe? I don't understand why you'd argue this to begin with considering I was only pointing out rule sources for scaling mounts which was exactly what the OP was asking for. These mounts scale due to a class feature they don't cease being mounts because they scale due to a class feature. Glad to hear that you figured out how you want to handle this. I'll be sure to check the class out once you post it and give you some tips. :D |