Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Subtle Knife 11-05-06, 11:38 AM	Very recently, a copy of the Dragon Compendium made its way into my hot little hands, and I thought I'd ask if anyone has thought of where some of its' components might fit within Eberron. There are some races that might fit in nicely! Diaboli - These denizens of the Plane of Shadow were displaced by a catastrophe around the same time as the Day of Mourning. Diaboli rarely attempt to make contact with other civilized races, as their somewhat fiendish appearance tends to produce unwanted reactions. Colonies might be well-placed in any of the more remote regions, such as The Lhazaar Principalities, Q'barra, The Eldeen Reaches, or regions of Xendrik. Perhaps entire towns or cities might have been displaced into the Material Plane, and now stand as singular ruins of bizarre architecture. Diopsids - These are a more commonly seen insectoid race that form small colonies within Khyber, and also tend to maintain relatively low profiles. A few Diopsids have attempted to develop trade routes within Khyber, dealing in rare metals and minerals found only in the deep regions; some offer their services as scouts, guides and mercenaries to those entering Khyber's depths. They tend to be more gregarious than others living in the depths, but are often poorly understood by other races. Lupins - Lupins were largely exterminated by the Church of the Silver Flame, who mistakenly took them as lycanthropes, rather than an offshoot of gnolls. Not only have those remaining Lupins developed a hatred of the Silver Flame, but also for lycanthropes, who used Lupin communities to hide from or deflect the ire of the Church. The majority of surviving Lupins migrated to Lammania to hunt lycanthropes, though small communities of lupins maintain a nomadic existence in the Talenta Plains and the Eldeen Reaches. Tibbits - Tibbits occasionally arise in communities of Halflings chronically exposed to high quantities of planar magic; constant exposure to strong manifest zones is most common. In general, most Tibbit children are adopted out to other Tibbits, who often form small colonies and keep to themselves. Most halflings have developed an uncanny ability of ignore or overlook the general existence of Tibbits. The majority of Tibbit colonies form in urban areas (such as Sharn), where they are keenly sought after as spies and assassins; few are interested in such activities, though, and they tend to enjoy their own sense of voyeurism, gathering information for the sake of it. Dvati - I have not figured out a good place for these "twinned" beings. Perhaps as a failed experiment of the Inspired, an attempt to expand the influence the Quori by creating a race that share the soul of a single Quori? Any thoughts? I'll be looking at Standard and Prestige Classes next! SK
Subtle Knife 11-05-06, 12:05 PM	On to Standard and Prestige Classes: Battledancer - This martial class may or may not be all that useful, with the addition of the Book of Nine Swords (pity all who ignore it!). Perhaps they might represent an unarmed combat tradition among the Valenar.... Death Master - Another necromantic class, just what we need. Perhaps these individuals might be those who wholly devote themselves to The Keeper, but through the manipulation of arcane magic? Jester - I'm going to ignore this one. I hate clowns. HATE CLOWNS. (Besides, I cannot think of a culture in Eberron that is hedonistic enough to make Jesters common.) Mountebank - These tricksters and manipulators are amongst the mortal races that have made pacts with the Lords of Dust, thinking it a path towards personal power. These generally represent some of the mortals who mastermind or direct others to the bidding of their masters. As they gain in power, however, they gain more of a fiendish aspect themselves, as the taint of the Lords of Dust takes root in their souls. Savant - Savants are often academics from one of the major universities or academic institutions of Khorvaire, who for various reasons see adventure as a form of study, often acting as mission experts and chroniclers on expeditions. Over time, they gain a broad mixture of skills, feats and spellcasting abilities, allowing them to fit into any group in a number of roles. I'm not certain that Sha'ir or Urban Druids 1) fit into Eberron, or 2) are necessary in Eberron, but I'd love the imput of others. SK
Realmsmaster 11-06-06, 11:17 PM	urban druids fit well into sharn
Subtle Knife 11-07-06, 08:13 PM	I suppose I have a bias - I tend to equate "Druid" with the wild places of the world, and have never felt at ease with the urban variants and builds. I'm glad to see I've started off such an epic debate.... SK
Amaril 11-07-06, 10:51 PM	Battledancer - This martial class may or may not be all that useful, with the addition of the Book of Nine Swords (pity all who ignore it!). Perhaps they might represent an unarmed combat tradition among the Valenar.... What?! Battledancers are perfect for Kalashtar who practice the Path of Shadows martial art form! I see the Savant as a "professional student" of Morgrave University. Touching on the races, I would suggest the Demiplane of Nightmares and the Diaboli that inhabit it are a byproduct of a time when Dal Quor, Xoriat and the Ethereal Plane were coterminous with one another. I would also suggest their favored class is Wilder instead of Sorcerer. Their demiplane can still be coterminous with Dal Quor and the Ethereal Plane with a thin border between it and Xoriat. Imagine it as a plane that is malleable like stretched pizza dough as it retains some level of contact with the other three planes.
FenrysStar 11-12-06, 09:36 PM	Very recently, a copy of the Dragon Compendium made its way into my hot little hands, and I thought I'd ask if anyone has thought of where some of its' components might fit within Eberron. There are some races that might fit in nicely! Diaboli - These denizens of the Plane of Shadow were displaced by a catastrophe around the same time as the Day of Mourning. Diaboli rarely attempt to make contact with other civilized races, as their somewhat fiendish appearance tends to produce unwanted reactions. Colonies might be well-placed in any of the more remote regions, such as The Lhazaar Principalities, Q'barra, The Eldeen Reaches, or regions of Xendrik. Perhaps entire towns or cities might have been displaced into the Material Plane, and now stand as singular ruins of bizarre architecture. Diopsids - These are a more commonly seen insectoid race that form small colonies within Khyber, and also tend to maintain relatively low profiles. A few Diopsids have attempted to develop trade routes within Khyber, dealing in rare metals and minerals found only in the deep regions; some offer their services as scouts, guides and mercenaries to those entering Khyber's depths. They tend to be more gregarious than others living in the depths, but are often poorly understood by other races. Lupins - Lupins were largely exterminated by the Church of the Silver Flame, who mistakenly took them as lycanthropes, rather than an offshoot of gnolls. Not only have those remaining Lupins developed a hatred of the Silver Flame, but also for lycanthropes, who used Lupin communities to hide from or deflect the ire of the Church. The majority of surviving Lupins migrated to Lammania to hunt lycanthropes, though small communities of lupins maintain a nomadic existence in the Talenta Plains and the Eldeen Reaches. Tibbits - Tibbits occasionally arise in communities of Halflings chronically exposed to high quantities of planar magic; constant exposure to strong manifest zones is most common. In general, most Tibbit children are adopted out to other Tibbits, who often form small colonies and keep to themselves. Most halflings have developed an uncanny ability of ignore or overlook the general existence of Tibbits. The majority of Tibbit colonies form in urban areas (such as Sharn), where they are keenly sought after as spies and assassins; few are interested in such activities, though, and they tend to enjoy their own sense of voyeurism, gathering information for the sake of it. Dvati - I have not figured out a good place for these "twinned" beings. Perhaps as a failed experiment of the Inspired, an attempt to expand the influence the Quori by creating a race that share the soul of a single Quori? Any thoughts? I'll be looking at Standard and Prestige Classes next! SK Interesting ideas on the lupins. I might give me ammuntion to switch the bonus from lycanthropes to the Silver Flame. But then again the Silver Flame are not my favorite people in the world.
JustX 11-12-06, 09:55 PM	I think that there is enough not known about Eberron to fit more than a few things into it. You have some great ideas however.
Romulus LoneWolf 11-12-06, 10:19 PM	I was thinking of making the Lupins work like the Ghaash'kala, having developped a "Purifying Flame" faith that encourages hunting lycanthropes independantly of the Purified themselves, and that after some initial conflict between mistaken hunters, there'd be relative peace between the two groups..
ChaoticGood 11-13-06, 04:01 AM	My thoughts: The diaboli might actually be fun as planar refugees (like the kalashtar) living under the protection of the dragons of Argonessen. The diopsids, if I ever used them, would be best working alongside (or rather, under) the abeil hives in Xen'drik. I'm planning to use dvati (with a few tweaks) as "what happens when a kalashtar mother has twins." (This was, in my opinion, the only truly interesting race in the book. Diaboli were a distant second.) The lupins may as well be in Droamm, near their gnoll ancestors. Also, that is where the last remaining werewolf packs hide out... and I have to say, I really like Romulus' idea for about them having an alternate Silver Flame religion. That suddenly makes them much more interesting to me! Tibbits are most, as you said, most likely found in urban areas like Sharn, Passage, and Rekkenmark. However, they would be most sought-after by the Gnomes, who would try to "cultivate" them for espionage work. :D
FenrysStar 11-13-06, 01:32 PM	I like the idea of having packs of lupin roaming the Eldeen Reaches and Subtle Knife's idea of them being hunted by Silver Flame zealots who couldn't be bothered to make sure a lupin is not a werewolf, either because they don't care or checking might deny them the opportunity to demonstrate the so called "righteousness" of their cause at the expense of a creature that never did any of the heinous acts for which she was accused of.
Amaril 05-02-07, 05:32 PM	Revisiting this idea, I could see characters who are members of House Phiarlan having levels of jester.
AkumaDaimyo 06-24-07, 02:26 AM	The thing with the Lupins I don't like so much. The plane they went to to hunt Lycanthropes is where mostly good Lycanthropes are at, so they'd be killing the good guys, which makes them just as bad as the Silver Flame. Do Lupin just kill any Lycanthropes or only evil ones? I'm not sure what alingment Lupins tend to be but I'd like to think of them as good guys. I guess I like the idea of a Silver Flame Lupin redeeming afflicted Lycanthropes or curing them. Also, as Keith Baker himself pointed out to me, not even the majority of all Silver Flame are from Thrane so a Lupin Silver Flame could come from a different region than Thrane with a more open minded outlook, or he/she could just be a member of the Sovereign Host.
Syltorian 06-24-07, 08:58 AM	Do Lupin just kill any Lycanthropes or only evil ones? I'm not sure what alingment Lupins tend to be but I'd like to think of them as good guys. I guess I like the idea of a Silver Flame Lupin redeeming afflicted Lycanthropes or curing them. Whatever their traditional alignment is, it doesn't matter in Eberron. After all, we Orcs are traditionally evil, but that situation doesn't apply to Eberron. I'd personally think of the Lupins as neutral in general. The rest depends on individual personality and specific tribe. Do they kill good aligned lycanthropes? Why not have this depending on the tribe? You are free to assign which philosophy is the most prevalent, but they need not be unified. Some are so angry at the lycanthropes in general, at them having massacred Lupin colonies and fooled the Silver Flame into doing the same that they do kill all they come across. These are the ones the OP describes. Some of these groups have priorities, attacking the most vicious lycanthropes above all others; many simply track down the closest and dispose of them. For others, it's a purely cultural tradition, a challenge, devoid of any other cause or restraint. These groups may focus on killing specific kinds of lycanthropes. One tribe attacks only werewolves; another only wereboars. It might be a right of passage that you have to kill your first werewolf before you are fully accepted as an adult, never mind the creature's alignment. This could make for a player character who has never been accepted as an adult, because he refuses to kill indiscriminately. Others believe that a lycanthrope is dangerous whatever it's specific alignment, because it is carrying a curse, and believe that even after redeeming them, parts of the curse linger. These groups have occasionally been known to sent assassins after people who have already been cured of lycanthropy. A few go as far as killing descendants of cure lycanthropes, believing that the taint could resurface under the right circumstances, even generations later. Some of these have embraced the Puritan/Aundairian version of the Silver Flame faith, but the Church itself considers them dangerous criminals. Other tribes act just like you want them to, and try to redeem the weres. Perhaps because they were influenced by the moderate, Thranish Silver Flame doctrines, perhaps because it is their own cultural tradition. Either way, they try to help, and their actions on Lamannia include trying to prevent other tribes from killing them. Yet other tribes have decided to become a kind of shepherds. They don't kill lycanthropes, but simply herd them, keep them away from places they could cause any trouble. They do also protect them from those who are out to kill them, but their general mission is to keep the lycanthropes on Lamannia, and hunt down and retrieve any that have escaped or are still loose. These tribes clash frequently, when two hunting groups with different philosophies target the same lycanthrope. Also, as Keith Baker himself pointed out to me, not even the majority of all Silver Flame are from Thrane so a Lupin Silver Flame could come from a different region than Thrane with a more open minded outlook, or he/she could just be a member of the Sovereign Host. Actually, as Keith has also frequently pointed out, the Silver Flame worshippers from Thrane are the ones with the 'more open minded outlook'. The moderates in control in Thrane require that every attempt will be made to redeem the lycathrope rather than killing him. The ones who keep massacring lycanthropes indiscriminately of alignment or actual threat are mostly the puritans of Aundair.
Nived 06-24-07, 10:25 AM	Humanoids building cities is natural. Just as ants build anthills (and remember the fun fact that the combined biomass of ants on this planet is larger than that of humans), beavers build dams, humanoids build cities. Its as natural as the sunrise. That humanoid druids would automatically avoid cities altogether? That'd be unnatural. Also isn't the Force Missle Mage in the Dragon Compendium? I have the Dragon Issue it originally appeared in. You know I'd love to play one just for the style of it... but I can't help but think it'd be really really really weak. Still awesome concept.
AkumaDaimyo 06-24-07, 10:27 AM	It matters wht alingment Lupins are because I want to know what they were supposed to be originally. Also not all closed minded Thranes are from Aundair and when they talk about things like the Convulsions of the Silver Flame? They are mostly talking about Thrane it seems. Also isn't the diet of the Cardinals in Thrane? Which has most of the "hard liners?" At least the hard liners who make decisions?
Syltorian 06-24-07, 11:58 AM	It matters wht alingment Lupins are because I want to know what they were supposed to be originally. They are mostly LN or LG. Also not all closed minded Thranes are from Aundair and when they talk about things like the Convulsions of the Silver Flame? They are mostly talking about Thrane it seems. Have you read the Forge of War: The more things change... (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=867798) thread? The Convulsions of the Flame is contradicting all the previous material, from the dragonshards to Faiths of Eberron and Five Nations, and even the ECS, and Keith had to put a lot of time and effort into trying to bring that into line with the rest of the canon again. Amongst other places, the state of affairs is addressed in FoE, p.69, under Servants of the Pure Flame. It specifically says that they are the most violent and fanatical, and are based in Aundair. Five Nations, p.131, goes to some trouble addressing how most Thranes are not mindless zealots, and are quite tolerant. The dominant side, "embodied by the Keeper of the Flame and her bishops and priests" is largely tolerant. A minority is intolerant. (ECS p. 207/8). ECS p.209 also states that you won't find any trouble in Thrane unless you are doing something obviously evil. Those are only some examples, there are many more explaining that Thrane is moderate and fairly tolerant. Partly because much of Thrane follows the Silver Flame because they were brought up in that belief, which has "diluted the intensity of their belief" (FoE, p. 58, p.65). Yes, there are occasional problems and some primarily unconscious intolerance, but by and large, Thrane is a fine place to live if you are not a rakshasa or a werewolf (and even then, the Keeper might be one!). Also isn't the diet of the Cardinals in Thrane? Which has most of the "hard liners?" At least the hard liners who make decisions? The Diet of Cardinals in indeed in Thrane. Their teachings are, in general, moderate and tolerant. Five Nations (p.134) explains that the Cardinals watch over archbishops and bishops, and if there is corruption, it's because that bishop is somewhere remote enough for the Diet not to notice him. The Keeper and the Diet have declared that Lycanthropes should be offered redemption. Corrupt officials are defrocked. It's the Puritans who refuse to obey, and since they're mostly not Thranes, the Diet cannot do much about them. According to Faiths of Eberron (p.67), those who attacked Sovereign Host worshippers in the war were punished by the Church (where they could be caught). The Doctrine of the Church prescribes that "whenever possible, people should... have the chance to correct their behaviour" and that, despite the cliché, "most real followers of the Flame seek to save these people, not destroy them" (FoE, p.57). The Church clearly tries peaceful ways before it even considers encouraging violence against mortal evil-by-choice. We had some rather lengthy discussions on the nature of the Silver Flame lately, to a large part because of the treatment of Thrane in Forge of War. I don't want to roll it up again in yet another thread, so this will be my last comment on this topic here. Most people, including Keith Baker and Ari Marmell have stated that, while isolated cases of such fanaticism existed, making them in any way generally accepted or normal behaviour is just wrong and contradicts all other material.
yrogerg 06-24-07, 12:11 PM	Also not all closed minded Thranes are from Aundair In fact, I'd go so far as to say that *none* of the close-minded Thranes are from Auidair. It's worth remembering that the Silver Flame isn't only Thrane, nor does all of Thrane worship the Silver Flame, even though it's a theocracy and a majority religion. Nothing published has said that worship of the Host, for example, is prohibited (unless that was added to Forge of War, as well). and when they talk about things like the Convulsions of the Silver Flame? They are mostly talking about Thrane it seems. ...And the fact that passage has fans and other designers up in arms because it directly contradicts all prior published information on the Silver Flame, and particularly the Silver Flame in Thrane, doesn't make you think that might not be so great an example? I know you were posting in that thread as well, so you couldn't have missed that.
AkumaDaimyo 06-24-07, 02:05 PM	I didn't miss it but I don't think that the Silver Flame/Thrane could have never done that. I think they could have. I was just tired of only seeing negative things about them. I whole heartedly belive that when relgion runs a nation though that things can get out of hand like that. I'd just like to hear about the good AND the bad. However as history goes to show, even in fiction, usually the people who make the headlines are the people commiting attrocities, especially in a book about war.
gensuke626 06-24-07, 05:23 PM	I just want to pop in and say really quickly, As far as Forge goes, I think the flame could have done that too. As far as I'm concerned, the masses of intolerance happened. But, like the Purge, The Church's official line is "I'm sorry. We shouldn't have done that. We're going to try to fix the problem now." I think Thrane is a Perfectly fine country to live in. I figure it's just as nice to live there as it is to live in Aundair...unless you're a shifter, then Thrane is much nicer.
FenrysStar 06-24-07, 05:48 PM	In the one article I was writing for Dragon, which will no longer be with us unfortunately, I may look into what the submission guidelines will be for its replacement if they will allow the fans to submit anything, I took inspiration from Secrets of Xen'Drik and had them created by the giants/titans before the elven revolt. Several centuries in fact. These powerful giants created the lupin, the catfolk and many more races, which I designed, and many of these races took part overt or covertly in the elven revolt. Lupin, along with several other of my own "custom" races, fled to Khorvaire when the elves settled on Aerenal. Eventually they settled in what is now the Eldeen Reaches where they had to contend with first the goblinoids and then later humanity. So what I did is switched their racial enemy, for those that live on Khorvaire at least, to goblinoids. While reading Forge of War I began to get a lot of other ideas about the lupin in that they would have been on the front lines of those fighting for Eldeen independence. The bulk of the race becoming Wardens of the Wood. A part of me is getting ideas for a story involving one lupin ranger who really hates Aundair and especially the mages therein. He's not an Ashbound as he has no problem with local bards, wizards, sorcerers and other arcane magic users, but an Aundairan mage will make his blood boil. He is also very much a hero, risking his life to save his fellow reachers. But if I write this as a semi-historical novel, I may just make him one of the early leaders if not one of the initial organizers of the Eldeen Wolves.
Divine_Spark 06-24-07, 08:02 PM	I had a PC who begged to be a death master (sigh) in a recent campaign. I gave the class direct ties to Vol, as the optional blood component to all spells seemed rather fitting. Also gave me plenty of enemies to hound him with when word of his 'reinterpretations of divinity' got back to Aerenal :)
Subtle Knife 06-25-07, 11:29 AM	I've been contemplating creating a Tibbit Rogue/Wizard/Unseen Seer/Daggerspell Mage character who works in secret for the Dark Lanterns of Breland. I figured (as stated previously) that they would be highly sought after in the field of espionage. SK
AkumaDaimyo 06-25-07, 11:45 AM	I've had some interesting race/class combos but I don't think they work even in Eberron. Seem quite the streach in some cases. It was more of a "this class + race works really well or would be humerous to me." Such as a Catfolk ninja. I have two black cats and one of them is pretty ninja because he can hide in our tiny apartment and we can tear it apart and not find him and then he just appears later. He's a ninja I say. The bigger cat isn't so good at hiding. :-p Tiefling Ninja interested me as well but I don't know how ethier of these two races could have got the training, even in Eberron. Not to mention both these races are rare enough and also pretty standoutish that they'd be easily remembered. I had a Catfolk Scout in one game and he was pretty cool but compared to the rest of the PCs was kinda weak. He never died though. :D Poison Dusk Lizardfolk are pretty cool too. Very nasty being small but still having a 18 str, dex AND con due to some good dice rolls +their ability score adjustments. Makes for a small ranger who packs a wallop. What are those cat things btw that turn into housecats? They were in a Dragon Magazine Compendium.
Subtle Knife 06-25-07, 11:51 AM	What are those cat things btw that turn into housecats? They were in a Dragon Magazine Compendium. Those are Tibbits. And none of my cats would really fit any character class. Besides, who wants to play an adventurer that sleeps 20 hours out of the day? SK
AkumaDaimyo 06-25-07, 12:46 PM	I'm not basing them completly off my real world cat. Only the parts that would work for a adventurer. The litte cat is actually more agressive than the bigger one, unless food is involved. That makes for a pretty funny duo of catfolk PCs or NPCs. Yeah Tibbit sound kinda cool as well. I found a thing with the crunch on those kind of racs but I want the fluff as well. I may have to get the Compendium when I can. So whats the deal with this online gaming magazine thingie I hear about? Is that the giant brain I've seen around here?
Amaril 06-25-07, 01:32 PM	I'm not basing them completly off my real world cat. Only the parts that would work for a adventurer. The litte cat is actually more agressive than the bigger one, unless food is involved. That makes for a pretty funny duo of catfolk PCs or NPCs. Yeah Tibbit sound kinda cool as well. I found a thing with the crunch on those kind of racs but I want the fluff as well. I may have to get the Compendium when I can. So whats the deal with this online gaming magazine thingie I hear about? Is that the giant brain I've seen around here?A bit offtopic. There are dozens of threads in the Future Releases forums, the Gleemax forums, and over on ENWorld. I suggest reading those rather than derailing this thread. I've been contemplating creating a Tibbit Rogue/Wizard/Unseen Seer/Daggerspell Mage character who works in secret for the Dark Lanterns of Breland. I figured (as stated previously) that they would be highly sought after in the field of espionage. SKHave you considered a beguiler (PHBII) rather than a multiclass rogue/wizard? They're pretty spiffy and would be ideal for what you are trying to accomplish. Also, I think a spy who relies so heavily on arcane magic might be better suited to Aundair's Royal Eyes.
FenrysStar 06-25-07, 01:41 PM	Just out of general curiosity, who in Eberron would you most suspect of having Battle Dancers in their nation or army. A part of me thinks the Eldeen Reaches would be the most likely.
Amaril 06-25-07, 02:17 PM	Just out of general curiosity, who in Eberron would you most suspect of having Battle Dancers in their nation or army. A part of me thinks the Eldeen Reaches would be the most likely. As part of an army in Khorvaire? None, in my opinion. I see Battledancers as individualists, or as part of a loosely knit group of peoples (rebels or some such). Also, as I've said above... Battledancers are perfect for Kalashtar who practice the Path of Shadows martial art form! You might be able to squeeze them into House Phiarlan or as an ancient elven tradition from their days as slaves to the giants of Xen'Drik. Some drow might use a similar fighting style as well.
FenrysStar 06-25-07, 02:21 PM	Part of me is thinking of a similar type of troop in Warhammer for the Wood Elves. Which makes me think the Valenar might use this fighting style too.
Subtle Knife 06-25-07, 02:32 PM	I stated something similar in an earlier post! SK