dragon gods in eberron. [Archive] - Wizards Community

dragon gods in eberron. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
korcheck
02-24-07, 12:15 AM what gods do the dragons in eberron worship? I had thought they worshipped one of the three or maybe the twelve but in secrets of sarlona in the sphere of korrandar it refers to the basic dragon gods by name so is Io and Tiamat and the rest common throughout D&D or what?
Shady314
02-24-07, 12:17 AM what gods do the dragons in eberron worship? I had thought they worshipped one of the three or maybe the twelve but in secrets of sarlona in the sphere of korrandar it refers to the basic dragon gods by name so is Io and Tiamat and the rest common throughout D&D or what?

The Dragons worship the usual Dragon Gods. They even have constellations for them. There is also the possibility those Dragons are also the Sovereigns. Who are often depicted as dragons and match up pretty well.
Belabras
02-24-07, 12:59 AM Dragons of Eberron (due out this summer) should go into detail on it too.
Bartimaeus
02-27-07, 03:41 PM From what I've gathered from the books, the dragons and giants and so on, all worship the Sovereign Host, just in different forms.
Romulus LoneWolf
02-27-07, 04:35 PM I was considering my own special twist on the Dragon Gods in Eberron. I'd make them ancient dragons who achieved Godhood upon death through having lead truly exceptional lives..

Bahamut, for exemple, would've been the last of the now long-dead Platinum Dragon race, wiped out by Khyber's Children during the Age of Demons. Bahamut himself would be remembered as having personally slain 10 demons for every fallen Platinum Dragon, until giving his life to help the Coualts seal Khyber.

My idea for Tiamat was that she was a Red Dragon who dared to delve into the lore of the Daelkyr, thinking of using their dark fleshcrafting magic to enhance the Draconic race. She started with herself, grafting the heads of four other chromatic dragons to her own, and began working on further experiments until she was condemned by the rest of Argonessen and slain after a prolonged, deadly battle with her and her followers. Her divine ascension is a puzzle to the rest of Argonessen, but has been taken by her surviving followers as a confirmation of her believes of draconic augmentation, which they continue in secret to this day...

...Dunno enough about the other dragon gods to adapt them, though.
tallric_kruush
02-27-07, 04:51 PM Bahamut himself would be remembered as having personally slain 10 demons for every fallen Platinum Dragon, until giving his life to help the Coualts seal Khyber.

Hey, hey, hey. Wait a minute. Don't going stepping on the couatls' toes, er, tails. Don't you think they get little recognition enough for what they did. Now they gotta share credit with a dragon?? Those guys get all the attention. What have they done for you humans lately, hmm??

;)
Romulus LoneWolf
02-27-07, 05:35 PM Hey, hey, hey. Wait a minute. Don't going stepping on the couatls' toes, er, tails. Don't you think they get little recognition enough for what they did. Now they gotta share credit with a dragon?? Those guys get all the attention. What have they done for you humans lately, hmm??

;)

Woah, woah, woooaaah... I never said the Coualts didn't do anything. They were the ones who sealed Khyber, I'm not denying that. I'm just saying perhaps Bahamut gave his life to help them, by single-clawededly fending off the brunt of the Demon Armies while the Coualts were creating the seal..

...Of course, I'm willing to wait what Keith Baker does with them in Dragons of Eberron. I'm sure it's better then what I thought up.
tallric_kruush
02-27-07, 05:50 PM Woah, woah, woooaaah... I never said the Coualts didn't do anything. They were the ones who sealed Khyber, I'm not denying that. I'm just saying perhaps Bahamut gave his life to help them, by single-clawededly fending off the brunt of the Demon Armies while the Coualts were creating the seal..

...Of course, I'm willing to wait what Keith Baker does with them in Dragons of Eberron. I'm sure it's better then what I thought up.

Your stuff's good. I'm just a card-carrying Couatl-loving weirdo since creating my latest PC (a Xen'drik tribal-type dedicated to "the Binding Flame"). I gotta stay in character, after all. :) The comment was truly just me being facetious.
Romulus LoneWolf
02-27-07, 05:57 PM Your stuff's good. I'm just a card-carrying Couatl-loving weirdo since creating my latest PC (a Xen'drik tribal-type dedicated to "the Binding Flame"). I gotta stay in character, after all. :) The comment was truly just me being facetious.

Ah, duly noted. Like I said, I give the Coualts full credit for binding the Fiends.

My image of Bahamut's big sacrifice would be him diving into the depths of Khyber, roaring as he charges the demonic armies, breath-weaponing and clawing at demon after demon as he single-handedly holds back the tide of savage fiends, while the Coualts close the gateway behind him; the last they see and hear of the Last Platinum Dragon being swarmed by demons, even as his roaring voice blare out, "YOU THINK I'M TRAPPED IN HERE WITH YOU? YOU FOOLS.. YOU'RE ALL TRAPPED IN HERE WITH ME!"
tallric_kruush
02-27-07, 06:17 PM Ah, duly noted. Like I said, I give the Coualts full credit for binding the Fiends.

My image of Bahamut's big sacrifice would be him diving into the depths of Khyber, roaring as he charges the demonic armies, breath-weaponing and clawing at demon after demon as he single-handedly holds back the tide of savage fiends, while the Coualts close the gateway behind him; the last they see and hear of the Last Platinum Dragon being swarmed by demons, even as his roaring voice blare out, "YOU THINK I'M TRAPPED IN HERE WITH YOU? YOU FOOLS.. YOU'RE ALL TRAPPED IN HERE WITH ME!"

My first thought in reading this was: "Man, Bahamut would make a good dwarf, or rather dwarven god." That whole bit about the fiends being trapped with him, that's the the kind of thing a dwarf would appreciate. They may just adopt Bahamut as their own if they hear this story.
ieattrollsforbreakfast
02-27-07, 08:40 PM From what I've gathered from the books, the dragons and giants and so on, all worship the Sovereign Host, just in different forms.

The dragon gods as the Host and Six? Lets see how they match up...

Aasterinian - God of Invention and Trade - Onatar
Astilabor - God of Wealth - Kol Korran
Bahamut - God of Protection and Good Fortune - Dol Arrah/Olladra
Chronepsis - God of Fate and Prophecy - The Traveller
Falazure - God of Death and Decay - The Keeper
Garyx - God of Chaos and Destruction - The Devourer
Hlal - God of Humour - ?
Io - God of Magic and Knowledge - Aureon
Lendys - God of Justice and Law - Boldrei
Tamara - God of Life - Arawai
Tiamat - God of Greed and Power - The Fury

Most are pretty good matches, Hlal was the only one without a good analogy. The Shadow, the Mockery and Balinor are left, but none of them fit.

I do like the idea that the dragon gods are ascended wyrms, though.
kyeudo
02-27-07, 09:03 PM The dragon gods as the Host and Six? Lets see how they match up...

Aasterinian - God of Invention and Trade - Onatar
Astilabor - God of Wealth - Kol Korran
Bahamut - God of Protection and Good Fortune - Dol Arrah/Olladra
Chronepsis - God of Fate and Prophecy - The Traveller
Falazure - God of Death and Decay - The Keeper
Garyx - God of Chaos and Destruction - The Devourer
Hlal - God of Humour - ?
Io - God of Magic and Knowledge - Aureon
Lendys - God of Justice and Law - Boldrei
Tamara - God of Life - Arawai
Tiamat - God of Greed and Power - The Fury

Most are pretty good matches, Hlal was the only one without a good analogy. The Shadow, the Mockery and Balinor are left, but none of them fit.

I do like the idea that the dragon gods are ascended wyrms, though.

If you want to go with the dragon gods as aspects of the Soverign Host and the Dark Six, replace The Traveler with the Shadow as Chronepsis, and put the Traveler as Hlal. Not exactly perfect match of alighnments, but the domains line up a little better.
Hellcow
02-27-07, 11:02 PM Needless to say, you'll see my take on this in Dragons of Eberron. There's some overlap with what various people have said so far, but there are still a few twists to come.
Donald_Cannith
02-28-07, 01:16 AM Seem aybe I am just crazy but I always took thier complete and total obsessio nwith prohpecy to be what hey used in place of any religon. After all, THEY KNOW everythnig is in that prophecy so wy bother with faith to some puny pantheon that probably loooks horribly skewed from what they started it as.
Hellcow
02-28-07, 01:45 AM Seem aybe I am just crazy but I always took thier complete and total obsessio nwith prohpecy to be what hey used in place of any religon. After all, THEY KNOW everythnig is in that prophecy so wy bother with faith...
Well...

What is the Prophecy?

Where does it come from?

How can there be a power that can predict and shape the future?

Do these questions disprove the existence of the divine... or is the Prophecy the will of the divine shared with those children wise enough to follow its signs? Is it, perhaps, a test laid out for creation?

One key thing to bear in mind is that the dragons are not of one mind on these questions. Some view the Prophecy as the word of the divine and are thus deeply religious beings. Others see the Prophecy as a tool that gives those with understanding the power of gods, and have no interest in other divinities. So, at the end of the day, the answer depends on the dragon you're dealing with.
heirodule
02-28-07, 10:02 AM My idea for Tiamat was that she was a Red Dragon who dared to delve into the lore of the Daelkyr, thinking of using their dark fleshcrafting magic to enhance the Draconic race. She started with herself, grafting the heads of four other chromatic dragons to her own, and began working on further experiments until she was condemned by the rest of Argonessen and slain after a prolonged, deadly battle with her and her followers. Her divine ascension is a puzzle to the rest of Argonessen, but has been taken by her surviving followers as a confirmation of her believes of draconic augmentation, which they continue in secret to this day...

Of course her ascension is a puzzle. Because she's the scapegoat of the dragons. It wasn't her fault she was made a mutant, but everyone accused her of being a traitor and guilty of monstrous deviance. She was killed by the chromatic dragons, and then worshipped by them because her death brought peace between them.

Read Rene Girard on scapegoating and how myths commonly attribute subsequent divine powers to those that are accused of vile crimes and killed by the community.
The Dreaming Duck
02-28-07, 11:48 AM She was killed by the chromatic dragons, and then worshipped by them because her death brought peace between them.
But worshipped in what form? As I see it, the biggest question with Tiamat is that she is traditionally the goddess of evil dragons... and in Eberron, chromatic dragons aren't necessarily evil.

So are you suggesting that she becomes the goddess of chromatic dragons, but loses the evil aspect? It seems to me that if she becomes a peacekeeper, you've lost the ability to use her in any sort of traditional manner; how do you run the Red Hand of Doom with Tiamat as a benevolent goddess?

Or should she remain a symbol of evil, but be worshipped by dragons of all colors?
The Ubbergeek
10-01-07, 02:14 PM A patron saint, an uniting factoré
Edymnion
10-02-07, 12:37 PM I was considering my own special twist on the Dragon Gods in Eberron. I'd make them ancient dragons who achieved Godhood upon death through having lead truly exceptional lives..Yeah, thats what I did. Except instead of the whole death part, I just said they took levels in Ascended Dragon (or whatever the PrC was in Draconomicon that allows a dragon to gain divine rank). They hang around the mortal plane long enough to inspire everybody else, then go off to do something else for the rest of eternity, and boom, the seed for all modern religion in Eberron. :)
Hellcow
10-02-07, 02:40 PM They hang around the mortal plane long enough to inspire everybody else, then go off to do something else for the rest of eternity, and boom, the seed for all modern religion in Eberron. :)
Which is essentially the creed of the Draconist sect of the Sovereign Host. The religion of the dragons themselves is slightly trickier because it has a role for both Sovereigns and the dragon gods - but hey, the book should be out any day.
Wih
10-02-07, 09:15 PM I'd like to note that in the Dragonshard "The Moons of Ebberon", Keith says something very interesting regarding Draconic deities.

Vult is the farthest moon from Eberron, and some legends say that it holds back forces that lurk out within the stars. The druids say that children of Vult are practical, careful folk who generally plan ahead and prepare for the worst; when disaster strikes, the children of Vult hold civilization together. In his study of the Serens, the sage Galeoin reported that the barbarians believe that Vult "devours" the spirits of deceased great wyrms that fail to attain godhood.

Linky. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20050307a)

Methinks that maybe there's a stage above Great Wyrm in Ebberon - Godhood.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
korcheck 02-24-07, 12:15 AM	what gods do the dragons in eberron worship? I had thought they worshipped one of the three or maybe the twelve but in secrets of sarlona in the sphere of korrandar it refers to the basic dragon gods by name so is Io and Tiamat and the rest common throughout D&D or what?
Shady314 02-24-07, 12:17 AM	what gods do the dragons in eberron worship? I had thought they worshipped one of the three or maybe the twelve but in secrets of sarlona in the sphere of korrandar it refers to the basic dragon gods by name so is Io and Tiamat and the rest common throughout D&D or what? The Dragons worship the usual Dragon Gods. They even have constellations for them. There is also the possibility those Dragons are also the Sovereigns. Who are often depicted as dragons and match up pretty well.
Belabras 02-24-07, 12:59 AM	Dragons of Eberron (due out this summer) should go into detail on it too.
Bartimaeus 02-27-07, 03:41 PM	From what I've gathered from the books, the dragons and giants and so on, all worship the Sovereign Host, just in different forms.
Romulus LoneWolf 02-27-07, 04:35 PM	I was considering my own special twist on the Dragon Gods in Eberron. I'd make them ancient dragons who achieved Godhood upon death through having lead truly exceptional lives.. Bahamut, for exemple, would've been the last of the now long-dead Platinum Dragon race, wiped out by Khyber's Children during the Age of Demons. Bahamut himself would be remembered as having personally slain 10 demons for every fallen Platinum Dragon, until giving his life to help the Coualts seal Khyber. My idea for Tiamat was that she was a Red Dragon who dared to delve into the lore of the Daelkyr, thinking of using their dark fleshcrafting magic to enhance the Draconic race. She started with herself, grafting the heads of four other chromatic dragons to her own, and began working on further experiments until she was condemned by the rest of Argonessen and slain after a prolonged, deadly battle with her and her followers. Her divine ascension is a puzzle to the rest of Argonessen, but has been taken by her surviving followers as a confirmation of her believes of draconic augmentation, which they continue in secret to this day... ...Dunno enough about the other dragon gods to adapt them, though.
tallric_kruush 02-27-07, 04:51 PM	Bahamut himself would be remembered as having personally slain 10 demons for every fallen Platinum Dragon, until giving his life to help the Coualts seal Khyber. Hey, hey, hey. Wait a minute. Don't going stepping on the couatls' toes, er, tails. Don't you think they get little recognition enough for what they did. Now they gotta share credit with a dragon?? Those guys get all the attention. What have they done for you humans lately, hmm?? ;)
Romulus LoneWolf 02-27-07, 05:35 PM	Hey, hey, hey. Wait a minute. Don't going stepping on the couatls' toes, er, tails. Don't you think they get little recognition enough for what they did. Now they gotta share credit with a dragon?? Those guys get all the attention. What have they done for you humans lately, hmm?? ;) Woah, woah, woooaaah... I never said the Coualts didn't do anything. They were the ones who sealed Khyber, I'm not denying that. I'm just saying perhaps Bahamut gave his life to help them, by single-clawededly fending off the brunt of the Demon Armies while the Coualts were creating the seal.. ...Of course, I'm willing to wait what Keith Baker does with them in Dragons of Eberron. I'm sure it's better then what I thought up.
tallric_kruush 02-27-07, 05:50 PM	Woah, woah, woooaaah... I never said the Coualts didn't do anything. They were the ones who sealed Khyber, I'm not denying that. I'm just saying perhaps Bahamut gave his life to help them, by single-clawededly fending off the brunt of the Demon Armies while the Coualts were creating the seal.. ...Of course, I'm willing to wait what Keith Baker does with them in Dragons of Eberron. I'm sure it's better then what I thought up. Your stuff's good. I'm just a card-carrying Couatl-loving weirdo since creating my latest PC (a Xen'drik tribal-type dedicated to "the Binding Flame"). I gotta stay in character, after all. :) The comment was truly just me being facetious.
Romulus LoneWolf 02-27-07, 05:57 PM	Your stuff's good. I'm just a card-carrying Couatl-loving weirdo since creating my latest PC (a Xen'drik tribal-type dedicated to "the Binding Flame"). I gotta stay in character, after all. :) The comment was truly just me being facetious. Ah, duly noted. Like I said, I give the Coualts full credit for binding the Fiends. My image of Bahamut's big sacrifice would be him diving into the depths of Khyber, roaring as he charges the demonic armies, breath-weaponing and clawing at demon after demon as he single-handedly holds back the tide of savage fiends, while the Coualts close the gateway behind him; the last they see and hear of the Last Platinum Dragon being swarmed by demons, even as his roaring voice blare out, "YOU THINK I'M TRAPPED IN HERE WITH YOU? YOU FOOLS.. YOU'RE ALL TRAPPED IN HERE WITH ME!"
tallric_kruush 02-27-07, 06:17 PM	Ah, duly noted. Like I said, I give the Coualts full credit for binding the Fiends. My image of Bahamut's big sacrifice would be him diving into the depths of Khyber, roaring as he charges the demonic armies, breath-weaponing and clawing at demon after demon as he single-handedly holds back the tide of savage fiends, while the Coualts close the gateway behind him; the last they see and hear of the Last Platinum Dragon being swarmed by demons, even as his roaring voice blare out, "YOU THINK I'M TRAPPED IN HERE WITH YOU? YOU FOOLS.. YOU'RE ALL TRAPPED IN HERE WITH ME!" My first thought in reading this was: "Man, Bahamut would make a good dwarf, or rather dwarven god." That whole bit about the fiends being trapped with him, that's the the kind of thing a dwarf would appreciate. They may just adopt Bahamut as their own if they hear this story.
ieattrollsforbreakfast 02-27-07, 08:40 PM	From what I've gathered from the books, the dragons and giants and so on, all worship the Sovereign Host, just in different forms. The dragon gods as the Host and Six? Lets see how they match up... Aasterinian - God of Invention and Trade - Onatar Astilabor - God of Wealth - Kol Korran Bahamut - God of Protection and Good Fortune - Dol Arrah/Olladra Chronepsis - God of Fate and Prophecy - The Traveller Falazure - God of Death and Decay - The Keeper Garyx - God of Chaos and Destruction - The Devourer Hlal - God of Humour - ? Io - God of Magic and Knowledge - Aureon Lendys - God of Justice and Law - Boldrei Tamara - God of Life - Arawai Tiamat - God of Greed and Power - The Fury Most are pretty good matches, Hlal was the only one without a good analogy. The Shadow, the Mockery and Balinor are left, but none of them fit. I do like the idea that the dragon gods are ascended wyrms, though.
kyeudo 02-27-07, 09:03 PM	The dragon gods as the Host and Six? Lets see how they match up... Aasterinian - God of Invention and Trade - Onatar Astilabor - God of Wealth - Kol Korran Bahamut - God of Protection and Good Fortune - Dol Arrah/Olladra Chronepsis - God of Fate and Prophecy - The Traveller Falazure - God of Death and Decay - The Keeper Garyx - God of Chaos and Destruction - The Devourer Hlal - God of Humour - ? Io - God of Magic and Knowledge - Aureon Lendys - God of Justice and Law - Boldrei Tamara - God of Life - Arawai Tiamat - God of Greed and Power - The Fury Most are pretty good matches, Hlal was the only one without a good analogy. The Shadow, the Mockery and Balinor are left, but none of them fit. I do like the idea that the dragon gods are ascended wyrms, though. If you want to go with the dragon gods as aspects of the Soverign Host and the Dark Six, replace The Traveler with the Shadow as Chronepsis, and put the Traveler as Hlal. Not exactly perfect match of alighnments, but the domains line up a little better.
Hellcow 02-27-07, 11:02 PM	Needless to say, you'll see my take on this in Dragons of Eberron. There's some overlap with what various people have said so far, but there are still a few twists to come.
Donald_Cannith 02-28-07, 01:16 AM	Seem aybe I am just crazy but I always took thier complete and total obsessio nwith prohpecy to be what hey used in place of any religon. After all, THEY KNOW everythnig is in that prophecy so wy bother with faith to some puny pantheon that probably loooks horribly skewed from what they started it as.
Hellcow 02-28-07, 01:45 AM	Seem aybe I am just crazy but I always took thier complete and total obsessio nwith prohpecy to be what hey used in place of any religon. After all, THEY KNOW everythnig is in that prophecy so wy bother with faith... Well... What is the Prophecy? Where does it come from? How can there be a power that can predict and shape the future? Do these questions disprove the existence of the divine... or is the Prophecy the will of the divine shared with those children wise enough to follow its signs? Is it, perhaps, a test laid out for creation? One key thing to bear in mind is that the dragons are not of one mind on these questions. Some view the Prophecy as the word of the divine and are thus deeply religious beings. Others see the Prophecy as a tool that gives those with understanding the power of gods, and have no interest in other divinities. So, at the end of the day, the answer depends on the dragon you're dealing with.
heirodule 02-28-07, 10:02 AM	My idea for Tiamat was that she was a Red Dragon who dared to delve into the lore of the Daelkyr, thinking of using their dark fleshcrafting magic to enhance the Draconic race. She started with herself, grafting the heads of four other chromatic dragons to her own, and began working on further experiments until she was condemned by the rest of Argonessen and slain after a prolonged, deadly battle with her and her followers. Her divine ascension is a puzzle to the rest of Argonessen, but has been taken by her surviving followers as a confirmation of her believes of draconic augmentation, which they continue in secret to this day... Of course her ascension is a puzzle. Because she's the scapegoat of the dragons. It wasn't her fault she was made a mutant, but everyone accused her of being a traitor and guilty of monstrous deviance. She was killed by the chromatic dragons, and then worshipped by them because her death brought peace between them. Read Rene Girard on scapegoating and how myths commonly attribute subsequent divine powers to those that are accused of vile crimes and killed by the community.
The Dreaming Duck 02-28-07, 11:48 AM	She was killed by the chromatic dragons, and then worshipped by them because her death brought peace between them. But worshipped in what form? As I see it, the biggest question with Tiamat is that she is traditionally the goddess of evil dragons... and in Eberron, chromatic dragons aren't necessarily evil. So are you suggesting that she becomes the goddess of chromatic dragons, but loses the evil aspect? It seems to me that if she becomes a peacekeeper, you've lost the ability to use her in any sort of traditional manner; how do you run the Red Hand of Doom with Tiamat as a benevolent goddess? Or should she remain a symbol of evil, but be worshipped by dragons of all colors?
The Ubbergeek 10-01-07, 02:14 PM	A patron saint, an uniting factoré
Edymnion 10-02-07, 12:37 PM	I was considering my own special twist on the Dragon Gods in Eberron. I'd make them ancient dragons who achieved Godhood upon death through having lead truly exceptional lives..Yeah, thats what I did. Except instead of the whole death part, I just said they took levels in Ascended Dragon (or whatever the PrC was in Draconomicon that allows a dragon to gain divine rank). They hang around the mortal plane long enough to inspire everybody else, then go off to do something else for the rest of eternity, and boom, the seed for all modern religion in Eberron. :)
Hellcow 10-02-07, 02:40 PM	They hang around the mortal plane long enough to inspire everybody else, then go off to do something else for the rest of eternity, and boom, the seed for all modern religion in Eberron. :) Which is essentially the creed of the Draconist sect of the Sovereign Host. The religion of the dragons themselves is slightly trickier because it has a role for both Sovereigns and the dragon gods - but hey, the book should be out any day.
Wih 10-02-07, 09:15 PM	I'd like to note that in the Dragonshard "The Moons of Ebberon", Keith says something very interesting regarding Draconic deities. Vult is the farthest moon from Eberron, and some legends say that it holds back forces that lurk out within the stars. The druids say that children of Vult are practical, careful folk who generally plan ahead and prepare for the worst; when disaster strikes, the children of Vult hold civilization together. In his study of the Serens, the sage Galeoin reported that the barbarians believe that Vult "devours" the spirits of deceased great wyrms that fail to attain godhood. Linky. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20050307a) Methinks that maybe there's a stage above Great Wyrm in Ebberon - Godhood.