Post/Author/DateTime	Post
woolybooger 08-09-07, 06:40 PM	with my very limited experience asnd resources to books i have found only one thing about valenar having dragonmarks. that was from a wiki article about DDO characters. (it said no) can valenar have dragonmarks?
Nightshade 08-09-07, 07:24 PM	The Valenar are a clan called the Valaes Tairn descended from their elven ancestors who fought the giants in Xen'drik. House Phiarlen and House Thuranni are the Houses with the Dragonmark of Shadow, and the mark descends in some combination of magic and genetics. They descended essentially from the same group of families and are thus a clan, themselves. The dragonmarked elves moved frrom Aerenal to Khorvaire to live among humans shortly after House Vol was destroyed by the elves and dragons. Thus, making it a thousand years ago or more. Contact between the Valenar and House Phiarlen or Thuranni would have been sparse until the Last War started. Since an elf with the mark Must descend from someone in house phiarlen or thuranni, the only way a valenar could have a mark is if one of their recent direct family members, i.e. mother or father, grandmother or grandfather, was each from the two lineages. So, a valenar father and Phiarlen mother, for example. The child would then have to be raised among the Valenar rather than Phiarlen. While the Houses are generally very possessive of their family members, this could be accomplished by killing off the Phiarlen parent, say in the Last War, and having the rest of the House knowing little about them. In other words, the character would be a foundling. It's not impossible, it just requires a very detailed and specific backstory.
The White Sorcerer 08-10-07, 06:15 AM	can valenar have dragonmarks? Yes.
Alex_ 08-10-07, 06:52 AM	with my very limited experience asnd resources to books i have found only one thing about valenar having dragonmarks. that was from a wiki article about DDO characters. (it said no) can valenar have dragonmarks? The family bloodlines that produce Dragonmarks amongst Elves are found chiefly amongst the "Humanized' Elves and the Arenal Elves, not the Valenar. It can happen, but it would be uncommon as it would require breeding between a member of the Dragonmarked houses and someone not of the Dragonmarked house (something the Elves tend to frown upon).
Garden_State_Gamer 08-10-07, 11:47 AM	But why go dragonmarked Valenar, when you can go Revanant Blade? (Races of Eberron)
The White Sorcerer 08-10-07, 03:33 PM	But why go dragonmarked Valenar, when you can go Revanant Blade? (Races of Eberron) Because not every Tairnadal elf is a warrior? Also, why can't you be both? Also also, it's in the Player's Guide, not in RoE.
woolybooger 08-10-07, 04:11 PM	i was looking to add a dragonmark becasue just being valenar wasn't eberron-esque enough and wanted to add a dragonmark. also, the differences between arenal and valenar, at the time of the migration from Xen'drik, was simply cultural, not racial. therefore couldn't a valenar bloodline also the dragonmark "gene"? still planning on going revenant blade. the abilities of the mark of shadow are not all that great anyway. i was mostly interested in the rules and what you all thought. thx
Alex_ 08-10-07, 05:47 PM	being valenar wasn't eberron-esque enough and wanted to add a dragonmark. Being a Valenar Elf is VERY Eberron. The culture of Valenar Elves is one of Eberron's more notable and distinct features compared to many other campaign settings. also, the differences between arenal and valenar, at the time of the migration from Xen'drik, was simply cultural, not racial. therefore couldn't a valenar bloodline also the dragonmark "gene"? Not even all Arenal produce Dragonmarks. Only Arenal with blood of house Phialarn and Thuranni produce the mark, and not even all members of the house develop it. The mark only appeared amongst those bloodlines centuries after the split between Arenii and Tarindal (Valenar) Elves. The Arenal Elves in general are pretty strict about family and bloodlines to the point where they encourage inbreeding over bringing outsiders into the family. So while it would be possible for someone from house Phialarn/Thuranni to have produced children outside of the house, and that this blood somehow made it to a Valenar child and they manifested the Mark of Shadow, it would be statistically small, and worthy of note. Or you yourself could be one of Phialarn/Thuranni blood who shirks their ties to the house, and chooses instead to become a part of Valenar society. It won't be easy or simple, but it could make for a great story.
Nightshade 08-10-07, 06:16 PM	i was looking to add a dragonmark becasue just being valenar wasn't eberron-esque enough and wanted to add a dragonmark. also, the differences between arenal and valenar, at the time of the migration from Xen'drik, was simply cultural, not racial. therefore couldn't a valenar bloodline also the dragonmark "gene"? still planning on going revenant blade. the abilities of the mark of shadow are not all that great anyway. i was mostly interested in the rules and what you all thought. thx The short answer to your question is... NO! Valenar do not manifest dragonmarks. Not all groups, populations, clans, houses, families, etc. have the same genetic makeup. Valenar are different House Phiarlen Elves. Norwegians are different from Italians, get it! Unless, as I said before, there was interbreeding between the clans (and that breeding would HAVE to be recent due to the history of the campaign world).
The White Sorcerer 08-10-07, 06:27 PM	NO! Valenar do not manifest dragonmarks "Phiarlan elf" and "Valenar elf" aren't distinct races. If a Tairnadal elf has Phiarlan blood for some reason or other, he could manifest the dragonmark. Aereni elves and Phiarlan elves are not the same, yet some Aereni manifest the dragonmark of Shadow.
ChimericalWolf 08-10-07, 06:31 PM	Of course, with the magic of dragonmarks, you could go back fifty generations before finding the ancestor that first brought mark potential into your bloodline. He wouldn't even have to be marked himself. Of course, if you go this route, you'll have to wonder why you're Marked and those fifty generations aren't. Obviously the Prophesy has something very special in mind for you.
The White Sorcerer 08-10-07, 06:38 PM	Also, one has to remember that the Valaes Tairn have inhabited Valenar for only about a century. Before that they lived in northern Aerenal (where many still remain).
Garden_State_Gamer 08-13-07, 11:12 AM	Thanks for the correction. I always get those two confused. While it is possible, I don't think it would be probable. The Valenar pride themselves on their ancestral ties. A "pure" Valenar would likely recognize a dragonmarked member the same way that they would recognize a Half-Elf with Valenar lineage. And such a character would be hard pressed to explain getting certain feats and prestige classes. "A Valenar? Favored in our house?" That said, if there's a good story behind the feats/PrCs I say go for it.
Nightshade 08-14-07, 03:17 PM	"Phiarlan elf" and "Valenar elf" aren't distinct races. If a Tairnadal elf has Phiarlan blood for some reason or other, he could manifest the dragonmark. Aereni elves and Phiarlan elves are not the same, yet some Aereni manifest the dragonmark of Shadow. I don't know where you're getting this information but I have never read and seen no evidence anywhere that Aereni elves ever manifest the mark of shadow. Do you have a page reference? House Phiarlen and Thuranni elves are the only ones that manifest the mark of shadow. Phiarlen elves and Valenar elves are not distinct races but they are distinct clans. Keith Baker has stated many times on these board that the Dragonmarks manifest genetically (and magically). And only those that are genetically related to the line of the House will manifest a mark. Any old human may be the same race as a member of House Cannith but they won't randomly manifest the mark of making. You still have to be somehow related to a Cannith member. That relation may be distant, but it's unlikely to be a thousand years distant. Something like that would be miraculous in terms of the campaign setting. You could organize an entire campaign around it. In fact, there is a campaign - Eyes of the Lich Queen.
bbthereaper 08-14-07, 05:07 PM	"A small, elite force, the Cairdal Blades consist mostly of fighters and rogues, along with a few wizards to provide magical support. A few undying soldiers of legendary reputation bolster the Blades' power. Due to traces of Phiarlan blood still coursing through Aerenal, the Mark of Shadow appears once or twice in each generation. Elves bearing this mark are always inducted into the Blades and generally trained as rogues." Page 217, ECS
The White Sorcerer 08-14-07, 07:18 PM	Phiarlen elves and Valenar elves are not distinct races but they are distinct clans. Keith Baker has stated many times on these board that the Dragonmarks manifest genetically (and magically). And only those that are genetically related to the line of the House will manifest a mark. Any old human may be the same race as a member of House Cannith but they won't randomly manifest the mark of making. You still have to be somehow related to a Cannith member. That relation may be distant, but it's unlikely to be a thousand years distant. You claimed that Tairnadal elves can't manifest the mark because they're different from the Phiarlan elves. That's simply not true.
Phaseroth 08-14-07, 09:37 PM	You claimed that Tairnadal elves can't manifest the mark because they're different from the Phiarlan elves. That's simply not true. They're different in much the same way that the Yoshidas are different from the Sioux: same race/species, different families/clans.
The White Sorcerer 08-15-07, 09:15 AM	They're different in much the same way that the Yoshidas are different from the Sioux: same race/species, different families/clans. But the difference doesn't stop them from manifesting dragonmarks. There are only two things that eliminate the potential for dragonmarks: Wrong race, and no blood relation to the House.
Alex_ 08-15-07, 10:40 AM	He's not suggesting that Valenar are physically incapable of manifesting a Dragonark if they have blood from house Phialarn or Thurrani, but that the houses are pf the culture of Arenal, and do not mingle with the family lones of the Valenar (and Tairnadal).
OgreBane99 08-15-07, 10:44 AM	But why go dragonmarked Valenar, when you can go Revanant Blade? (Races of Eberron) Bahhhhhhhhhhhhhh-roken!
Darakhoranon 08-15-07, 11:06 AM	So, all things considered: A Valenar CAN manifest a dragonmark (the Mark of Shadow, to be precise...) - he is a freaking elf! Sure, he has to have one or two ancestors who carried the mark/were members/of the bloodline of house Phiarlann (Maybe Thuranni, but those guys havenīt been around all that long, have they? And "Mark of Shadow" is "Mark of Shadow"...), but so what? Just because itīs unlikely doesnīt mean itīs impossible. I just donīt see a really compelling reason to play a 'marked Valenar. Those elves are already quite unlike the "typical" tree-huggers youīd find in, say, FR. Trying to fit a dragomark into the standard concept of a Valenar elf smells a bit like "I want it all"... Itīs possible, but I wouldnīt do it - unless, of course, I had a VERY good background for a character like that. A background that compelled me to play a 'marked Valenar - and not a 'marked Valenar for whom I needed to come up with a background... However, itīs your character. So if you want a 'marked Valenar, go for it. Thereīs nothing in the rules prohibiting it. Just say "Itīs from a somewhat obscure bloodline - Iīve never managed to track down that stupid a****** that mixed up the records. I havenīt found him YET..." And if anyone insists, you got an excuse for a duel...:schemes:
Artemel 08-17-07, 10:44 AM	And it might be wise to remember that the "House" was formed from multiple families who joined together because of the dragonmark, not one family who manifested it, but MANY. AFB... try to find reference for this later.
Alex_ 08-17-07, 11:28 AM	I just donīt see a really compelling reason to play a 'marked Valenar. Those elves are already quite unlike the "typical" tree-huggers youīd find in, say, FR. Trying to fit a dragomark into the standard concept of a Valenar elf smells a bit like "I want it all"... Neither are the Aerenii (amongst whom the mark is more common) like the typical tree-huggers of FR. Most certainly not members of House Phialarn and Thuranni, the bloodlines amongst whom the Mark is almost exclusively manifested. From both a mechanical/thematic standpoint it does work. The Valenar are skilled and capable Warriors, but like Elves in general, they rely more on subtlety, mobility, dexterity, stealth, and their keen senses and wisdom to take on opponents. It certainly isn't overpowered. It's feasible, and it does sound like the kind of thing you would hear about in a movie or novel, and in Eberron, the players are the heroes and protagonists of the story. Itīs possible, but I wouldnīt do it - unless, of course, I had a VERY good background for a character like that. A background that compelled me to play a 'marked Valenar - and not a 'marked Valenar for whom I needed to come up with a background... That's kind of how all character concepts start. I've never known anyone to start writing a random background, and soley through that, determine what race, ability scores, classes, skills, and feats they should/would have. Unfortunately, some people are just better at thinking up backgrounds that will impress or convince a DM more than others. With people who aren't so great at that, it's rather unfair that the player would be punished and disallowed to play a concept they'd like, while another player who is fortunate enough to be a better storyteller gets to run around playing whatever equally improbable character they managed to cook up. If the DM doesn't want to allow it, then they shouldn't allow it. However, if the DM thinks it would work, and that it only needs an explenation, they should help the player come up with that explenation. This is especially true when the DM has a certain view of how "things work" in their campaign that the players may be totally ignorant of.
Darakhoranon 08-19-07, 07:15 AM	You misunderstood me, I think. In MY view, a Valenar is "exotic" enough to be an interesting idea in and of itself. True, the elves tend to concentrate on a fighting style that combines well with the Mark of Shadow - but then, there are several other ways to make a character whoīs focus is on stealth and movement. I donīt have to add a dragonmark - but then, our ways of creating characters are obviously markedly different: I (usually) start with the background and build the character from that, you go the other way from character to background. I never said that was "wrong" - just that I see it (because of my experiences with several people) as possibly meaning power-grabbing. Repeating myself: I never accused you of that.
Kreistor2 08-19-07, 11:40 AM	Valenar vs. Aereni is just a cultural difference, not racial. They are all elves. Now, if you play with sub-races, then some sub-races (which can't take true dragonmarks) would be more common as Valenar (like Wood Elves, for instance) and others more commonly Aereni (like Grey Elves), but since these differentiations are just cultural, any race could belong to any culture. So, there is no mechanical reason an elf of the Valenar could not have the Mark of Shadows and be a member of House Phiarlen.
Alex_ 08-19-07, 03:36 PM	I (usually) start with the background and build the character from that, you go the other way from character to background. I'm not saying you way is wrong (it actually sounds very interesting), however I'm having difficulty imagining how you do that. Examples? I can understand starting out with a vague idea like "Halfling arcane caster," or "Human with strong bond with animals and mark of Handling," and not choosing specific classes, prestige classes, feats, skills, abilitiy scores, etc, but to start with no idea of what kind of character you want to play, and then start writing a background of the character you what you want to play...
Phaseroth 08-19-07, 08:30 PM	I'm not saying you way is wrong (it actually sounds very interesting), however I'm having difficulty imagining how you do that. Examples? I can understand starting out with a vague idea like "Halfling arcane caster," or "Human with strong bond with animals and mark of Handling," and not choosing specific classes, prestige classes, feats, skills, abilitiy scores, etc, but to start with no idea of what kind of character you want to play, and then start writing a background of the character you what you want to play... Sounds like you actually have the basic idea. It's basically a matter starting at the beginning instead of the middle. You figure out where you character came from, decide what events shaped the direction of his life, and what he did after those events. In other words, explain who he is. Once you've done that, only then do you look and ask, "What does all that lead up to? Which combination of class, skills, and style best represents the place this character has arrived at?" That's when you assign a class, and the other details that go with it. It's similar to two different approaches to writing a novel. Many — perhaps most — authors think of a story they want to tell, come up with an ending, and then start writing, figuring out how to get their characters to that ending. Others, like SF author Isaac Asimov, just start writing at the beginning and see where the story takes them. Both approaches are equally valid.
Creature_Mastermind 08-19-07, 08:54 PM	Because not every Tairnadal elf is a warrior? Also, why can't you be both?This is very funny to me because i'm a Valenar Elf with SH(Shadow Hunter) and i'll be going RB(Revannent Blade)with Thurrani dragonmark.and im lvl 10 and i will post my levels if you want.
scrollreader 08-20-07, 02:46 PM	And then, of course, there's always the possibility that your Valenar could suddenly manifest the Mark of Death. At which point you need to have a little talk with your priests about /which/ of your ancestors you're trying to emulate. :P
Alex_ 08-20-07, 03:14 PM	Sounds like you actually have the basic idea. It's basically a matter starting at the beginning instead of the middle. You figure out where you character came from, decide what events shaped the direction of his life, and what he did after those events. In other words, explain who he is. Once you've done that, only then do you look and ask, "What does all that lead up to? Which combination of class, skills, and style best represents the place this character has arrived at?" That's when you assign a class, and the other details that go with it. Well, see, that's what I think the OP is doing. All they know is that they want to be a Valenar Elf with the Mark of Shadow, but they're looking for clarification and ideas in regards to whether or not such a thing is possible, and if so, what are the most likely explanations. They're not looking to exploit the rules or mechanics (neither being a Valenar nor having the Mark of Shadow are very overpowered), or trying to distort existing rules, but just making a character they think is cool within the context of the world's lore.
Darakhoranon 08-20-07, 04:05 PM	i was looking to add a dragonmark becasue just being valenar wasn't eberron-esque enough and wanted to add a dragonmark. *bolded the main part* As far as I can tell, thatīs just not true. It doesnīt get much more "eberron-esque" than the Valenar (after all, a nearly complete turn-around on traditional roles). And adding a dragonmark MEANS adding power - in this case because of (in MY opinion...) a rather weak reason. I suppose woolybooger doesnīt see the Valenar as being "typical" for Eberron and thus his reason for wanting to add a dragonmark is valid in my eyes. But because of past experiences with several other players, I tend to suspect power-grabbing at first when given a reason I see as rather weak for taking certain combinations of abilities. To end this: I DON`T accuse anyone here of power-grabbing. Back on topic: I think scrollreaders idea with the suddenly appearing mark has its merits. Have the mark suddenly appear after having gained a couple of levels. And then find out that the ancestor from whom you "inherited" it is seen as a traitor/weakling/maniac/whatever (take your pick) by the Valenar as a whole... THAT should make sure your character is unique - and because of his necessarily deep immersion in multi-layered intrigues/conspiracies (which is one of the "typically" Ebberonian themes), he should be quite different from a "generic" elven warrior.
Alex_ 08-20-07, 05:04 PM	And adding a dragonmark MEANS adding power That's because it's a Feat, and Feats in general are intended to make your character more powerful. However, even for a Feat, the Dragonmarks are not overly powerful in a mechanical, or even a role playing sense. They're simply different. Even when they get it, they have no ties to a Dragonmarked House aside from the mark, so they don't get any other benefits (calling on favors), unless they tie themselves to the House, which comes with its own consequences, especially if you're a member of the Mark of Shadow. Beyond that, the discovery of a Valenar with a Dragonmark (which is certainly a rare event) has potential to color relations with other Valenar. I tend to suspect power-grabbing at first when given a reason I see as rather weak for taking certain combinations of abilities. Power grabbing should be reserved for when it's clear that the PC understands that the power is giving them a clear mechanical edge, and this is actually the case. It's understandable that many people see a poorly background or explain character and think, "powergaming", but in my experience, it's more often the result of someone who's just having trouble coming up with a good background or explenation. This also happens when the player isn't that familiar with the setting. When you look at the actual mechanics choices being made and compare the character's impact on the game with others, they're not usually out of line.
Creature_Mastermind 08-20-07, 05:46 PM	All they know is that they want to be a Valenar Elf with the Mark of Shadow, but they're looking for clarification and ideas in regards to whether or not such a thing is possible. It also helps my Dad is the GM :P.
Phaseroth 08-20-07, 07:07 PM	They're not looking to exploit the rules or mechanics (neither being a Valenar nor having the Mark of Shadow are very overpowered), or trying to distort existing rules, but just making a character they think is cool within the context of the world's lore. I didn't say anything about exploiting the rules. I was just clarifying two different — but equally valid — approaches to character creation :)
Alex_ 08-20-07, 07:29 PM	I didn't say anything about exploiting the rules. I was just clarifying two different — but equally valid — approaches to character creation :) I know. I just think it needs clarifying in general. With many people who actually do aim to make the most powerful character ever, without regards to backgrounds, and the fact that one has to waste relatively more effort and time to catch them, it's easier in general for people to think that anyone who doesn't have a background doesn't care. I'm not accusing anyone here of doing that either, but I've seen it mentioned often enough to know that it's a very easy and reasonable conclusion to drawn from these kinds of threads.
Nived 08-23-07, 02:46 AM	"A small, elite force, the Cairdal Blades consist mostly of fighters and rogues, along with a few wizards to provide magical support. A few undying soldiers of legendary reputation bolster the Blades' power. Due to traces of Phiarlan blood still coursing through Aerenal, the Mark of Shadow appears once or twice in each generation. Elves bearing this mark are always inducted into the Blades and generally trained as rogues." Page 217, ECS I just wanted to quote this because even though it pretty much answers the question directly from the Eberron Campaign Setting no one seems to have noticed it the first time.
Alex_ 08-23-07, 10:49 AM	I just wanted to quote this because even though it pretty much answers the question directly from the Eberron Campaign Setting no one seems to have noticed it the first time. Cairdal Blades is an Arenii institution though. It has nothing to do with the Valenar or Tairandal Elves in general. However, right below that in relation to the Tairnadal (which includes the Valenar Elves).... In the last few mellenia, many younger Elves of southern bloodlines have left their homes to join the Tairandal... The "southern bloodlines" would be the Arenal Elven families. There's an opportunity for some Phialarn/Thuranni blood to get into Valenar veins.